IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-03
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08:18:33 <andythenorth> oops, tab doesn’t ffw real life, just openttd :P
08:27:19 <Alberth> daylength in RL would be more useful, imho :p
08:27:58 <andythenorth> it can be faked by focussing
08:28:10 <andythenorth> but sometimes external obligations make that hard
08:29:03 <Alberth> hmm, in my experience, time speeds up when you're focussed :)
08:29:56 <Alberth> also, tea could be useful now
08:29:59 <andythenorth> needs a bug report
08:30:02 <andythenorth> and a feature request
08:41:46 <andythenorth> time for my occasional adventure into industry_cmd.cpp
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09:31:34 <peter1138> why was i awake until 3am :S
09:32:46 <peter1138> well, best be off out on the bike
09:43:31 <andythenorth> where did all these airports come from?
09:43:47 <andythenorth> there are 8 versions just of small airport, now in trunk
09:47:02 <andythenorth> oh it’s OGFX+ Airports :)
09:49:00 <Alberth> I wondered already how you managed that :)
09:49:16 <andythenorth> hidden features :P
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09:54:36 <ic111> andythenorth: As you cleaned up the bugtracker now - should I create tickets for the two bigger patches I wrote (timetables, new river generator), or doesn't this matter in fact? After all, I publish new versions in the forum anyway, so such a ticket would probably contain a link to the forum thread...
09:54:49 <andythenorth> ic111: I would discuss here first
09:55:06 <andythenorth> you need to get lucky on a day when a few devs are (1) here (2) in a mood to discuss it
09:55:21 <ic111> Discussing them is a long-term-issue anyway...
09:55:31 <ic111> I don't expect to discuss them in one day...
09:55:46 <andythenorth> at the moment, based on dev interests/priorities, I think there’s a low chance of getting them through :)
09:56:06 <andythenorth> better rivers would be a nice pony IMHO
09:58:46 <andythenorth> ic111: is better rivers in JGR’s patch pack?
09:59:42 <ic111> Integrating them into a patch pack would probably be possible without too much work
10:00:10 <ic111> ... as (beside a refactoring of the mapgen GUI), the patch queue adds new code, but doesn't touch existing code
10:00:53 <andythenorth> ic111: where’s the repo for it? o_O
10:00:56 * andythenorth might try and compile
10:04:43 <andythenorth> I think official policy for patches is still mercurial patch queues :P
10:05:15 <ic111> I have read that you don't like them
10:06:08 <andythenorth> the github route makes more sense to me, patches are isolated and lost imho
10:06:17 <andythenorth> but I’m not a dev or reviewer
10:07:22 <ic111> For me, given that I am somewhat familiar with the hg way now, it's just a question of how much time do I invest in organizing source code (learn a new kind of version control system), and how much time do I invest into the code itself.
10:08:33 <andythenorth> so much stuff in JGR Patchpack
10:08:38 <andythenorth> not sure where to begin testing :P
10:08:49 <andythenorth> ship collision avoidance doesn’t work though
10:10:01 <ic111> But if you avoid ship collisions - doesn't this trigger the need for extended path finding?
10:10:26 <ic111> If two ships meet in a narrow part of the ocean, and can't pass - what happens?
10:11:17 <andythenorth> waste of time IMHO
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10:19:09 <Alberth> avoid is a lot softer than remove/eliminate
10:19:45 <Alberth> ie it doesn't promise collisions wont happen
10:20:29 <andythenorth> I tested it, and ships still sail along 100% over-lapping
10:20:37 <andythenorth> so it ain’t adding much :P
10:21:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: I fixed a FS :o
10:22:50 <Alberth> perhaps if they meet in opposite direction?
10:25:04 <Alberth> moving speed to top-left corner in the display?
10:25:44 <Alberth> centered on engine is also quite useless, as 1/2 the display is not used
10:27:38 <andythenorth> dunno what my fix does on RTL languages
10:27:58 <andythenorth> but I am often having to make vehicle windows wider to see the speed
10:28:27 <Alberth> you know you posted an image only, right?
10:28:45 <andythenorth> if it’s viable I’ll make a patch, otherwise eh
10:28:54 <andythenorth> changing all the lang strings is a lot of faff :P
10:29:16 <Alberth> sed is the magic word there :p
10:29:21 <andythenorth> it just shuffles the parameters around
10:29:50 * andythenorth was amused to be able to actually fix something
10:29:59 <Alberth> It feels like it needs a word in front
10:30:10 <andythenorth> OpenTTD has the same Z-shaped learning curve that Zope community ran into
10:30:17 <andythenorth> small small things are very easy
10:30:25 <andythenorth> creating illusion of rapid progress
10:30:31 <andythenorth> everything else is nearly impossible
10:30:38 <andythenorth> so going backwards
10:31:00 <Alberth> all the in-between stuff mostly works
10:31:13 <Alberth> unless you take out whole parts
10:34:58 <andythenorth> at first test, it seems really useful
10:35:02 <andythenorth> intrerface is….odd
10:38:33 <Alberth> catchment area is quite complicated
10:39:00 <andythenorth> it’s somewhere on a frosch to-do list
10:39:03 <Alberth> biggest problem iirc is that things are not always the same
10:39:19 <andythenorth> I was using it for local authority display only
10:39:44 <andythenorth> seems straightforward there
10:39:56 <andythenorth> problem is, people will want a generic solution for All The Things :|
10:40:02 <andythenorth> perfect is the enemy of good, again
10:44:12 <Alberth> just city authority could work
10:44:41 <Alberth> I never need that information though
10:45:31 <andythenorth> I need it when I’m planting trees to placate LA
10:45:48 <andythenorth> or in silicon valley, where industries have to be built in specific town
10:49:01 <andythenorth> be better as a toggle on transparency palette
10:49:19 <andythenorth> newgrf tile overlays :P
11:00:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what’s wrong with you ‘close adjacent level crossings’ patch?
11:01:01 <andythenorth> it’s in JGR PP, seems to work so far
11:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: mostly converting old savegames safely (i.e. a setting which is enabled for new games and disabled for old games by default, and a serious warning to change that mid-game)
11:02:37 <andythenorth> no setting, just migrate it to be standard behaviour?
11:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> no. vehicles will crash if you just enable it
11:14:23 <andythenorth> polyline building tool is super annoying
11:20:33 <andythenorth> as is build-and-refit
11:20:57 <Alberth> depends on what you're used to?
11:22:03 <Alberth> not that it matter much, as you mostly clone anyway
11:22:23 <andythenorth> build-and-refit adds an extra toggle button to buy menu
11:22:31 <andythenorth> which makes very cluttered and confusing
11:22:46 <andythenorth> either you want that feature, or you don’t
11:22:52 <andythenorth> no need to toggle it per purchase :P
11:23:31 <andythenorth> I was hoping for more gold in this patchpack TBH
11:23:57 <andythenorth> all it’s doing is re-inforcing my prejudice that Improving the Game is Now Hard
11:24:09 * andythenorth does not mean that to sound grumpy
11:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no worry, it totally does :p
11:25:36 <andythenorth> this patchpack is awesome :)
11:25:51 <andythenorth> it shows that over the years, basic OpenTTD has become really good :)
11:26:11 <andythenorth> and that there are some nice ideas for patches, but actually everything is already fine :)
11:27:15 <Alberth> it shows that changes need to be considered more thoroughly, perhaps
11:28:35 <andythenorth> so far, the game seems about twice as dense in JGR patchpack
11:28:51 <andythenorth> unassailable learning curve
11:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: another tricky part about the adjacent level crossing patch is that if you want to add diagonal crossings on top of it, the adjacent crossings must be enabled
11:32:52 <andythenorth> is there a console command to show active blitter?
11:32:57 <andythenorth> I have looked in wiki and list_cmds
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11:43:40 <ic111> As I had a look / fixed the issues LordAro told me about the timetables patch two weeks ago yesterday - what´s your opinion about the desired (minimum) size of the timetable window?
11:44:16 <ic111> My problem is, that in fact the first line (currently) needs the width I distributed.
11:44:36 <ic111> Of course I could gain some space by shorter labels, but not much
11:44:42 <LordAro> a screenshot in the default font would perhaps be more useful
11:44:53 <LordAro> but, can it not be split into 2 lines?
11:45:09 <LordAro> it looks like at least "Timetable length.." could be on the next line
11:45:28 <andythenorth> UI design is hard :)
11:45:30 <Alberth> "Vehicle" is totally useless, as is "Timetable" on that white line
11:45:45 <andythenorth> Celestar1 so where is your legendary economy PDF then? o_O
11:45:50 <ic111> Hm, the second line contains an (optional) name of the timetable which I use for arrival / departure boards
11:46:08 <ic111> I could shorten Timetable Length to Length
11:46:38 <andythenorth> is it an option to light the current timetable implementation on fire, and start again?
11:46:42 <ic111> I made it that verbose, since at this point, you must distinguish the property of the timetable and the property of the vehicle
11:47:07 <ic111> I.e., the timetable has one global start, and then you have n vehicles with different offsets
11:47:44 <ic111> Thus, if a vehicle has offset two months, then the start of the timetable might be 1st January, but the start of the vehicles timetable is 1st March
11:47:45 <andythenorth> LordAro: know anything about the blitters? o_O
11:48:15 <ic111> So, yes, I might shorten the labels, but I feared that then people won´t realize how it works
11:48:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: precious little
11:49:10 <andythenorth> this patch fails in way too many places for me to have a clue
11:49:11 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
11:49:23 <andythenorth> maybe I could dig it out of JGR’s github
11:49:29 <Alberth> offset can't be related to timetable, can it?
11:49:42 <ic111> I don´t understand your question
11:50:11 <ic111> The OrderList has a start date
11:50:15 <Alberth> you are explicit over timetable vs vehicle
11:50:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: do you ever use timetables? o_O
11:50:30 <ic111> A vehicle has an offset against that OrderList
11:50:34 <Alberth> but I don't see how a timetable has an offset
11:50:51 <ic111> Start date plus offset result in the vehicle-local start date
11:50:56 <Alberth> so "offset" has only one meaning then
11:51:13 <Alberth> and it doesn't need "vehicle" in front
11:51:13 <ic111> It´s a property of the vehicle
11:51:29 <ic111> In this way, you are right, I can remove it
11:51:53 * andythenorth reads the wiki about timetables
11:51:55 <ic111> Maybe I should add a reasonable tooltip with the explanation?
11:52:05 <Alberth> do you have vehicle start?
11:53:02 <LordAro> andythenorth: i'll have a look
11:53:18 <ic111> The arrivals the vehicle presents you below are (should be) in the range [vehicle_start, vehicle_start + timetable_length[
11:53:40 <andythenorth> was hoping for a clean branch, JGR’s patch is probably just old
11:53:50 <andythenorth> his PP is close to recent trunk
11:53:57 <Alberth> maybe rename one f the "start" to "begin" or something else
11:54:42 <Alberth> andy, hardly using time tables, they are not very resistent against breakdowns
11:54:58 <andythenorth> I am unable to comment on any of the timetable stuff
11:55:10 <andythenorth> I keep trying to learn what the goal is, but it doesn’t stick
11:55:22 <Alberth> "almost useless" is a good summary :p
11:55:37 <andythenorth> I have tried following the instructions, but either the instructions are broken
11:55:40 <andythenorth> or OpenTTD is broken
11:55:44 <andythenorth> or I did it wrong
11:55:58 <Alberth> I think you covered all the options :p
11:56:04 <andythenorth> I fail to understand how it adjusts the vehicle speeds
11:56:12 <andythenorth> that seems to violate the idea that newgrf controls vehicle speed
11:56:14 <Alberth> it involves a few tricks to get it running
11:56:31 <Alberth> it doesn't change speed
11:56:35 <andythenorth> wiki says it does
11:56:38 <ic111> Regarding breakdowns: As in real world, I always add some extra time for unexpected events, i.e. if a vehicle in optimal circumstances needs 10 days for a distance, I assign 11 or 12.
11:56:41 <Alberth> it adds waiting time in stations
11:56:55 <andythenorth> "as well as specifying a maximum speed at which the vehicle should travel along that section of its journey"
11:57:01 <ic111> plus a reasonable waiting time at the end of the line, before the vehicle starts into the opposite direciton
11:57:12 <andythenorth> “Each vehicle speeds up or slows down depending on whether it is late or early according to the timetable."
11:57:21 <andythenorth> idea seems flawed to me
11:57:38 <andythenorth> slowing down the vehicle just makes any following vehicles late
11:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: timetables can already limit speed
11:57:39 <ic111> is (in my personal playing style) part of the fun, designing things a way where they are robust, even if some breakdowns happen
11:58:06 <andythenorth> anyway, there’s no mileage in a hot air argument about timetables :)
11:58:12 <andythenorth> we’re stuck with them :)
11:58:18 <andythenorth> maybe ic111 is going to fix them
11:58:56 * andythenorth wonders about multiplayer coop game using JGR patchpack
11:59:04 <ic111> But, regarding layout, then I try to shorten some labels, decrease width of the dialog somewhat, but don´ t touch the core layout
12:00:29 <andythenorth> can’t tell if JGR has fixed that
12:00:53 <LordAro> well i'd imagine so :p
12:01:00 <LordAro> let me see if i can find a commit in his branch
12:01:19 <andythenorth> he’s at 27893, so looks like it should be fixed
12:04:22 <LordAro> nope, doesn't look like it's in his PP
12:05:42 <LordAro> looks like frosch's commit did quite a bit of what JJ's patch did though, let me see if i can update
12:07:32 <_dp_> polyrail is very nice, vastly increases building speed :p
12:07:45 <_dp_> only starcraft maniacs like solo don't use it xD
12:09:57 <andythenorth> adds yet another button to the construction toolbar
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12:10:21 <_dp_> andythenorth, just remove other 5 :p
12:10:26 <andythenorth> detects some slopes, and fails on others
12:10:39 <andythenorth> so you release mouse button to build, but it just fails
12:11:10 <_dp_> it's same as regular autorail on slopes
12:11:17 <andythenorth> in fact it just doesn’t work
12:11:33 <andythenorth> I drag straight and diagonal sections, and it only builds one of them
12:11:51 <andythenorth> no point being nice about it, it’s just broken
12:12:17 <_dp_> andythenorth, a lot of people happily use it :p
12:12:44 <_dp_> bulding two segments doesn't quite fit openttd network commands
12:13:02 <_dp_> so it always builds only one
12:13:20 <_dp_> it's basically an autorail that remembers last point, nothing more
12:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a terrible design
12:13:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it’s complete crap
12:14:00 <_dp_> it may not be the best design possible but it's still much better than autorail :p
12:14:03 <andythenorth> worth you getting JGR’s patchpack to test it
12:14:14 <andythenorth> I hate UIs that lie to people
12:15:27 <andythenorth> your measure tools are in JGR’s pack Wolf01 :)
12:15:29 <andythenorth> what are they for?
12:15:57 <andythenorth> what’s wrong with counting tiles with my fingers?
12:16:04 <andythenorth> like I have to when testing industry placement rules
12:16:07 <Wolf01> Distance and height difference between starting point and end point
12:16:21 <_dp_> andythenorth, I'll call you next time I'll need to find two towns on 230 tiles distance :p
12:16:34 <andythenorth> Wolf01 should be on the land-area information global button
12:16:41 <andythenorth> not landscape toolbar
12:16:43 <Wolf01> Did he integrate them with all other drag&drop tools?
12:16:58 <andythenorth> JGR patchpack clean compiles for me
12:17:21 <andythenorth> I think for any current discussion of features, JGR patch-pack is required viewing
12:17:22 <Wolf01> I was planning to automatically get distance and height difference when d&d
12:18:05 <Wolf01> Maybe even the cost instead of using shift
12:19:30 <andythenorth> oh as a tooltip for autorail etc?
12:19:50 <Wolf01> I don't have the shift on my tablet
12:19:57 <Wolf01> I don't even have the ctrl
12:20:03 <andythenorth> measure tool would be useful for newgrf dev
12:20:14 <Wolf01> But I bound that to a gesture which enables and disables it
12:20:16 <andythenorth> dunno if you’ll find anyone to commit it though :P
12:20:25 <andythenorth> it’s quite a niche thing
12:21:09 <_dp_> btw in citymania client land info tool does the measurement when d&d
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12:21:44 <andythenorth> I wondered about doing that
12:22:05 <andythenorth> does it also tell you the properties of every tile in the dragged region?
12:22:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, no, it only tells properties on one tile click, and d&d does measurement
12:22:40 <nahkiss> Hey, I'm running a dedicated server and have hard time figuring out how to start a new game with new generated map. What I'm missing here?
12:22:51 <_dp_> may not be a very good interface choice but saves hotkeys xD
12:23:00 <andythenorth> hotkeys are evil
12:23:05 <andythenorth> so are buttons and toggles
12:24:06 <Wolf01> nahkiss: open the console and type "newgame"
12:24:28 <nahkiss> Wolf01: yeah tried that (with rcon) and I get the same map but fresh game
12:24:58 <nahkiss> Like, cities and stuff change place but there's 2 lakes on the exact same spot, etc.
12:24:59 <Wolf01> That should be the "restart" behaviour
12:25:01 <andythenorth> it’s the game settings crap
12:25:29 <nahkiss> Some openttd.cfg option I need to change?
12:25:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, I forgot, landinfo in cmclient works on hovering
12:25:34 <Wolf01> nahkiss: try newgame [somerandomnumber]
12:25:45 <_dp_> andythenorth, so when you hover it's land info and click-and-drag its measurement
12:25:50 <LordAro> andythenorth: hmm. i do believe that JJ's patch supersedes r27796
12:25:55 <LordAro> if i'm reading this correctly
12:26:01 <nahkiss> Wolf01: nope, still the same landscape
12:26:06 <andythenorth> hover is evil on touch :P
12:26:21 <_dp_> andythenorth, openttd is evil on touch :p
12:26:59 <andythenorth> LordAro: can we swap out one for the other? Paste instead of patch? :P
12:27:42 <nahkiss> hold on, newgame [randomnumber] didn't actually change the seed, checked with "getseed"
12:27:53 <nahkiss> I guess this has to be manually edited on the openttd.cfg
12:28:32 <Wolf01> nahkiss: No, I read the code and it's the evilest thing I've ever read
12:29:21 <LordAro> andythenorth: hehe, not quite
12:29:41 <Wolf01> If using "newgame" doesn't work in multiplayer, then it's broken in more parts than I thought
12:31:58 <_dp_> citymania server patch has this line somewhere in it: _settings_newgame.game_creation.generation_seed = GENERATE_NEW_SEED;
12:32:07 <_dp_> coz can't be bothered with this stupid shit :p
12:34:03 <Wolf01> Yeah, I changed that too in my tries, mainly because it's a waste to set it as random seed and then check again if it's GENERATE_NEW_SEED to set it as random
12:34:45 <Wolf01> BTW, rcon newgame works for me, 1.7.1
12:34:53 <Wolf01> nahkiss: which version you are using?
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12:40:57 <LordAro> let me try something else
12:44:39 <LordAro> reverted previous patch, JJ's patch applies cleanly(ish)
12:45:14 <LordAro> let me tidy the diff up, then i'll submit to FS
12:47:42 <Wolf01> nahkiss: if you are using rcon, did you set the right password? It fails silently if not, also rcon passwf "newgame [seed]" <- quotes are required
12:48:03 <nahkiss> ah, missing quotes I guess
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13:18:40 <andythenorth> stations on bridges over stations
13:18:52 <andythenorth> imagine the newgrf drawing headache with that :P
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13:27:33 <andythenorth> even though it’s pointless
13:27:39 <andythenorth> it’s quite fun updating it to be accurate
13:48:27 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But how else can we make a realistic model of Tamworth?
13:48:50 <ic111> (hope this is no double post, had some connection problems)
13:49:12 <andythenorth> I have labelled them rejected, because they’ve been discussed here N times
13:49:15 <andythenorth> and they won’t make it
13:50:19 <ic111> Now I am curious - for this particular one, do we talk about serious technical problems, why it´s hard to impossible to implement, or about some kind of "we don´t like it"
13:50:45 <andythenorth> that depends which dev you get the opinion of
13:50:54 <andythenorth> broadly, not interesting to anyone
13:51:05 <ic111> At first glance, if someone manages to implement that in a proper way, I personally would say, why not have the additional rail connections?
13:51:32 <andythenorth> this might help me, I need to try and write some words for the wiki
13:52:08 <andythenorth> 1. the default expectation for all patches is ‘Rejected’, but that’s not made explicit because somehow it’s thought to be bad
13:52:35 <andythenorth> 2. rational technical/gameplay/codestyle reasons are often sought to justify rejection, this is the wrong approach
13:52:43 <andythenorth> the reasons should be found instead for inclusion
13:53:06 <andythenorth> finally, the major thing that gets something included is ‘Dev was interested and no other devs blocked them'
13:53:22 <andythenorth> so the primary criteria for successful patch is ‘dev was interested'
13:54:08 <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s widely clear :)
13:54:26 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The problem is that there are almost no active devs
13:54:27 <andythenorth> the mental model seems to be of some pipeline / rational process where all patches will proceed if they are technically good enough
13:54:57 <andythenorth> FLHerne: no that’s a factor, not The Problem
13:55:10 <andythenorth> if you read forums back to 2007/2008 there were a shitload of active devs
13:55:12 <FLHerne> Which turns almost all external commits into "rejected" by default, which prevents anyone new from becoming active
13:55:22 <andythenorth> but still same complaints about non-moving patches
13:55:48 <ic111> But, at this point, a "Rejected" state reads like a very fundamental decision, for "technical / gameplay / codestyle" reaons, as you describe in (2)
13:55:54 <FLHerne> Ok, a problem is that there are no active devs
13:56:12 <FLHerne> So that everything gets "rejected" simply because no-one's really looking at them
13:56:34 <FLHerne> When there were active devs who still weren't looking at them, it was a different problem :P
13:56:46 <ic111> For me, this is the message "feature is not worth for investing time into it, if you want to contribute something to the game"
13:57:16 <FLHerne> And yes, 'rejected' is clearly the wrong word for the concept you describe
13:57:21 <ic111> But IMHO, you cannot know how people react to a particular patch, before you implemented it.
13:58:03 <andythenorth> I am curious about the wiki
13:58:14 <andythenorth> or should it be burnt to the ground?
13:58:26 <ic111> I use it quite seldom, to be honest
13:59:24 <FLHerne> There are definitely useful things on the wiki
13:59:43 <FLHerne> Like the categorised lists of newgrfs, and the tutorial
14:00:19 <ic111> Regarding the "Requested features" page, IMHO it can be a very useful summary about development state
14:00:27 <FLHerne> Last I saw, the settings documentation was mostly useless though (pre-reorganisation)
14:01:28 <andythenorth> LordAro: blitter works for me, thanks
14:02:01 <andythenorth> I think unhelpful stuff is worse than nothing
14:02:08 <andythenorth> ^ that’s basically all wrong
14:03:18 <andythenorth> to what end I don’t know
14:04:05 <eekee> (12:18:40) andythenorth: stations on bridges over stations
14:06:32 <eekee> andythenorth: because i make these insane networks with everything almost on top of everything else anyway XD
14:09:00 <ic111> Stations on bridges IMHO is a candidate, where I personally would probably like it in terms of gameplay, but where (given knowledge about code) I trust devs if they say that implementing this is not feasable.
14:09:22 <andythenorth> I give it a 0% chance
14:12:14 <eekee> yeah i can believe it's not implementable
14:12:50 <eekee> i just had a thought: a tunnel-station, which is both a tunnel and a station platform
14:13:23 <eekee> that would solve a lot of my wants
14:13:23 <andythenorth> tunnels don’t really exist
14:13:38 <andythenorth> the challenge for bridges and tunnels is that the game stores data in tiles
14:13:40 <eekee> i know, had fun at the edge of a map once lol
14:13:44 <andythenorth> tunnels don’t have any tiles
14:13:58 <andythenorth> trains can’t pathfind to a station that has no tiles, for example
14:14:11 <eekee> what about the tunnel ends?
14:14:22 <FLHerne> There was a proposal to allocate extra strips of tiles to bridges and tunnels
14:14:32 <FLHerne> Which would be its own kind of problem
14:15:26 <FLHerne> I guess you'd need to keep them in a quadtree or something, and then if you see a 'bridge above' bit you'd search for the relevant one
14:15:43 <FLHerne> Instead of searching on-map for the bridgehead
14:16:01 <eekee> i'm trying to imagine the simplest thing. train navigates to end of tunnel-station. for cachement, tunnel-station must be linked with ctrl-click to a regular station
14:16:10 <andythenorth> I wish an architectural decision had been made for ‘denser map’ instead of ‘bigger map'
14:16:37 <andythenorth> a 256x256 game with multiple levels is a better playing experience than 2048x2048 mono-level imho
14:17:00 <andythenorth> but I think the UI and newgrf side would be crappy
14:17:03 <eekee> i couldn't decide between them
14:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: these two are completely unrelated
14:17:49 <andythenorth> I wondered if somone would point that out :P
14:18:02 <andythenorth> rheotirical dark pattern of connecting two unrelated issues
14:18:20 <andythenorth> currently widely deployed in political speech
14:19:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you think they’re orthogonal, at the implementation level?
14:19:07 <LordAro> andythenorth: i never much enjoyed the multiple levels of locomotion
14:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: architecturally, yes. (assuming an ideal system with no memory limits)
14:19:53 <eekee> widely deployed in religious speech too :(
14:21:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think as a design choice, that’s where the focus went
14:21:30 <eekee> anyway, i quite like my tunnel-station idea, but i'm too busy playing to look into coding it :)
14:21:40 <andythenorth> and one design choice often excludes another, even if only by available time to deal with complexity
14:21:55 <eekee> i have to say i do like big maps too
14:22:12 <andythenorth> LordAro: multiple levels probably sucks eh? :)
14:22:20 <andythenorth> I just like the idea of a train dropping 10 levels in a tunnel
14:22:49 <andythenorth> could put coal mines actually underground :P
14:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> dropping/raising levels in tunnels is frequently done in mountains
14:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (usually in loops)
14:23:35 <andythenorth> spiral tunnel inside mountain
14:25:13 <andythenorth> coal ‘mines’ would be coal seams, underground
14:25:27 <andythenorth> build little networks of trains, moving the coal from multiple seams to a lift
14:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <eekee> what about the tunnel ends? <-- currently, tunnel ends are the only thing that physically exists on the map. hackalittlebit's "signals in tunnels and on bridges" patch uses those to store the data, but that is widely considered a terrible and inflexible approach
14:25:30 <andythenorth> run supplies back in
14:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is basically a case of "this is not Sim<whatever>"
14:27:36 <eekee> yeah i was thinking it's a different game, but then so are some grfs anyway
14:27:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: still trains though eh?
14:27:53 <andythenorth> all I’ve done is added more Z-layers
14:28:01 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: i'm thinking it's so small it doesn't need to be flexible
14:28:06 <andythenorth> could just have the map twice :P
14:28:22 <eekee> can't spiral with only two layers?
14:28:32 <andythenorth> rather than moving vertically through layers, scroll to another map which is the same x,y but another z
14:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: z-layers are fine, it's the "model stuff that happens within one industry" part that doesn't quite fit
14:28:57 <andythenorth> well that would be a newgrf choice
14:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you can fit that into a NewGRF economy with no new NewGRF features
14:29:06 <andythenorth> OpenTTD doesn’t have to do a thing for that
14:29:20 <andythenorth> it’s just FIRS, but moved underground ;)
14:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also, vertical lifts would be a new transport type
14:29:44 <andythenorth> variant on pipelines
14:29:48 <andythenorth> but bi-directional
14:30:06 <andythenorth> are the cages balanced, like a funicular?
14:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> thing is, they're not at all like pipes
14:30:39 <andythenorth> yeah, pipes are continuous flow at a rate
14:30:51 <andythenorth> this is discrete packets for the full route, at intervals
14:30:56 <andythenorth> more like a train tbh
14:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there are probably types that are funicular-like, and others where there's just a counter-weight
14:31:24 <andythenorth> well discussing this is more fun than fixing the wiki :)
14:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> also: ship lifts
14:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> also: vehicles in vehicles
14:32:07 <andythenorth> mornington crescent
14:32:20 <andythenorth> once vehicles can go in vehicles, then it regresses infinitely no?
14:32:50 <eekee> you could make a limit of the weight
14:33:17 <eekee> btw firs is addictive :D
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14:35:24 <andythenorth> Wolf01: appealing
14:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you make a vehicle that carries all vehicles, does the vehicle carry itself?
14:39:12 <andythenorth> mayor of mayortown
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15:06:34 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r27912 trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp (2017-09-03 15:06:29 +0200 )
15:06:35 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r13948): [NPF] Reserved track bits were not accounted for when trying to find any safe position.
15:09:37 <ST2> cmon andythenorth, can't a player a very active nervous system build a town road layout?
15:11:25 <andythenorth> ST2: you know what the patch does? o_O
15:11:48 <ST2> I think that's only a simulator
15:13:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: it maximised town growth speed
15:13:55 <andythenorth> I can see houses built in corners
15:14:16 * andythenorth wonders whether multiple road layouts need testing etc
15:14:25 <andythenorth> ‘how to test’ would be useful on patches
15:14:48 <frosch123> for review you need to understand the code anyway
15:17:32 <_dp_> andythenorth, yes, it only places houses in corners :p
15:17:42 <_dp_> doesn't directly affect growth speed or anything else
15:18:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, and that layout is just an example of what an effective layout can look like with that patch
15:19:05 <_dp_> doubt anyone will seriously build it though
15:19:06 <andythenorth> the simulator thing is cool
15:19:44 <andythenorth> ok I’m getting houses in corners
15:21:07 <_dp_> andythenorth, most of testing for that patch comes from checking that it rly doesn't change anything else
15:21:16 <andythenorth> or rather, does GS work there
15:21:41 <andythenorth> I am curious about interaction of GS, newgrf, existing town mechanics
15:22:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, GS usually just controls growth speed, house placing is same with GS or without, and that page describes placing
15:22:35 <andythenorth> ok, that sounds as I’d hoped
15:22:52 <andythenorth> this confused me “GameScript house building command does up to 25 tries for every house”
15:23:26 <_dp_> andythenorth, there is a gs method for instant house construction that works slightly different but it's rarely used
15:24:20 <_dp_> and, yeah, that method basically just calls normal build procedure 25 times (or till success)
15:24:21 <andythenorth> seems better to delegate to town growth mechanism, but eh, I haven’t tried
15:24:45 * andythenorth hasn’t written any town GS
15:24:54 <andythenorth> trying to learn how it works, without writing one :P
15:27:45 <andythenorth> sounds like click-bait
15:28:38 <andythenorth> the problem isn’t age, it’s mindset
15:29:05 <andythenorth> people get trapped by outdated skills because they don’t want, or aren’t supported, to learn new ones
15:29:08 <Wolf01> Tell that to my govern
15:29:46 <frosch123> yep, i have seen people older than 50 who can learn new stuff, and i have seen people at age 25 unwilling to learn new stuff
15:31:09 <_dp_> andythenorth, btw, did you notice benchmarking thing in townsim?
15:31:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: simple fix in the screenshot, I could finish the patch...
15:31:50 <andythenorth> _dp_: no, what is it?
15:32:32 <_dp_> andythenorth, hit b key, it grows many towns and shows neat charts :)
15:32:47 <_dp_> like population distribution
15:33:02 <andythenorth> has someone reimplemented the OpenTTD algorithm in JS or so _dp_ ?
15:33:11 <frosch123> (screenshot from 2010)
15:33:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, yep, someone was me xD
15:33:17 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am used to finding quick fixes to web layout problems :P
15:33:28 <andythenorth> especially now we have responsive layouts
15:33:51 * andythenorth plots javascript-in-openttd
15:34:00 <andythenorth> seriously, we could bundle node
15:34:19 <frosch123> funny, my boss' boss thinks the same at work :p
15:34:42 <andythenorth> _dp_: for logic-as-content
15:35:04 <_dp_> andythenorth, there is squirrel already, it seems to be even better fit
15:35:18 <andythenorth> but node is for inexperienced programmers!
15:35:23 <andythenorth> it’s right there in the readme somewhere
15:35:35 <andythenorth> squirrel is nuts :P
15:35:43 <_dp_> it seems for experienced programmers even squirrel isn't fast enough :p
15:36:29 <frosch123> i guess in ottd the bottleneck is the command execution
15:37:03 <andythenorth> I probably have to handle config setting in my patch? “vehicle_speed = true” is in openttd.cfg
15:37:14 <andythenorth> or is that old cruft
15:37:38 <_dp_> frosch123, which commands, network? those seem to be fast enough
15:37:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: would anyone notice if it was removed? :p
15:38:08 <frosch123> _dp_: iirc a script can at most run one command per network frame
15:38:08 <andythenorth> breaks savegames?
15:38:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: I don’t know tbh :(
15:38:25 <frosch123> so scripts which want to control the whole map are doomed at some point
15:38:26 <andythenorth> I would like to know more about the settings + savegame compatibility
15:38:29 <_dp_> frosch123, yeah, but that's just shitty gs implementation
15:38:42 <_dp_> frosch123, our servers run multiple commands without any issues
15:38:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: check settings.ini, if it has SDG_NOT_IN_SAVE or something, you can remove it
15:40:42 <andythenorth> SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE ?
15:42:15 <andythenorth> also I deleted openttd.cfg, started the game, quit
15:42:19 <andythenorth> vehicle_speed is not written
15:42:39 <andythenorth> now I just need sed to fix all the lang strings :P
15:42:45 <frosch123> well, so someone removed it before :)
15:43:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: don't post a patch with the modifies then :p
15:43:10 <frosch123> it's easier to run sed locally
15:43:44 <andythenorth> not ‘easier’ for me :P
15:43:44 <_dp_> hm, now that I think of it I seem to remember that 1 frame delay being there for some very silly reason
15:43:50 <andythenorth> my favourite sed is remote
15:44:23 <frosch123> maybe submit a git feature request: allow commits to be defined as sed/awk/python script for easy merging of generated changes :)
15:45:45 <frosch123> _dp_: it's needed if the script wants to know about success immediately, otherwise you need some asynchronous script methods, bundles commands or no success response
15:46:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: see, maybe you can learn about new reject reasons that way
15:46:33 <_dp_> frosch123, I know, and there is no "if" it always thinks script needs the result
15:47:11 <_dp_> frosch123, but since it's a server it could possibly execute that command immediately instead of putting it in queue
15:48:33 <_dp_> "In theory, we could execute the command right away, but then the client on the server can do everything 1 tick faster than others."
15:48:45 <_dp_> found it, that that silly reason
15:49:41 <_dp_> like, who the fuck cares if it's 1 tick faster
15:50:11 <_dp_> and on dedicated server it makes no sense whatsoever
15:52:25 <LordAro> frosch123: you should definitely look at #6469
15:52:27 <_dp_> actually, doesn't that make 2 frame delay for gs?
15:54:17 <andythenorth> we don’t have a FS bot eh?
15:54:38 <_dp_> who wanted to remove some settings? there's _settings_client.network.frame_freq
15:54:48 <_dp_> don't think it even works with freq != 1
15:56:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: we do, it's named "andy"
15:56:28 <andythenorth> I didn’t provide the link :P
15:59:19 <frosch123> hmm, mingw-w64 project has a feed on the newest tracker comments on front page :p
15:59:44 <_dp_> omg, why does it completely change gs execution order with DEBUG_DUMP_COMMANDS?
16:00:27 <_dp_> oh, it's not changing, just disabling
16:00:59 <frosch123> gs is disabled in replay, for obvous reasons
16:01:55 <_dp_> frosch123, ah, so DEBUG_DUMP_COMMANDS is replay? I though it's just dump
16:04:17 <_dp_> looks like that 1 tick handicap doesn't even add a tick, it's just because of queueing it gets delayed
16:04:20 <frosch123> yes, dumping does not require a compiler option
16:04:51 <andythenorth> over and over again?
16:05:26 <andythenorth> not interesting?
16:05:59 <_dp_> idk, I could use it to build X rails :p
16:06:36 <andythenorth> I could think of so many uses :)
16:06:45 <andythenorth> but same as I said to ic111 earlier
16:06:51 <andythenorth> everything is rejected by default
16:07:03 <andythenorth> there doesn’t have to be a reason, except profound lack of interest
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16:07:25 <_dp_> andythenorth, there seem to be a lot of interest from players :p
16:07:51 <andythenorth> doesn’t change the facts though :)
16:08:04 <andythenorth> I am trying to perfect the nicest, most accurate, least hostile version of
16:08:13 <andythenorth> “everything is pretty much rejected”
16:08:32 <frosch123> LordAro: any experience with mingw?
16:08:37 <_dp_> andythenorth, "game is dead"? :p
16:08:42 <andythenorth> the explanations of ‘this is all free, you don’t pay for it, developers give their own time” etc
16:08:47 <andythenorth> are true but boring
16:09:04 <andythenorth> _dp_: it’s been dead since start, I’ve been reading older forum + commits
16:09:22 <frosch123> LordAro: can you confirm/deny that there is no mingw version which supports both win9x and c++11. i.e. mingw only running gcc 4.8, and mingw-w64 only supporting 2000+
16:09:23 <andythenorth> old forum posts are full of “but why is cool feature X not done yet"
16:09:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, so it's undead?
16:10:03 <andythenorth> rolling stone, gathers no moss
16:10:09 <_dp_> crawling and eating brainz xD
16:10:18 <andythenorth> hard to board a moving train
16:10:23 <andythenorth> bad metaphors :P
16:10:47 <andythenorth> my 2 line patch for speed turns out to assert
16:10:53 * andythenorth is not a programmer :(
16:11:33 <LordAro> frosch123: that sounds about right
16:11:36 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I think I'm overdoing it with symfony... 435435 classes just to upload and validate a file
16:11:59 <LordAro> i don't think it'd be a great loss to lose support for win9x
16:12:19 <frosch123> no, but it's better with a good reason :)
16:14:05 * andythenorth just dropped IE 9 :P
16:14:11 <andythenorth> it’s nice to lose old things
16:14:24 <Wolf01> Eh, request was fine... no "error" array in symfony request, that's the validator role, you must do an object (maybe an Entity if you want to save the details somewhere) and apply the validator which required ClassMetadata and Constraints...
16:15:00 <Wolf01> Also, better to use generated forms so it can handle the visual errors too
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16:22:48 <_dp_> hm, and why did I suddenly remember some piece of indian wisdom...
16:25:49 * _dp_ now thinking of making a grf with undead ponies
16:26:51 <Flygon_> > grf with undead ponies
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16:27:03 <Flygon> Ragnarok Online's .grfs aren't close enough? :B
16:58:19 <andythenorth> undead pony can’t dance _dp_?
17:06:44 <_dp_> andythenorth, dead pony can't, undead can :p
17:20:08 <andythenorth> is it bedtime yet?
17:20:27 <Wolf01> Mmmh, after doing it I'm asking myself if a log parser is actually useful :|
17:21:36 <andythenorth> does it work? o_O
17:22:14 <Wolf01> Almost, but that's the same stuff you can read by opening the file with a notepad
17:22:22 <Wolf01> It could only be useful for stats
17:22:38 <andythenorth> purpose of a log parser is aggregating and filtering
17:23:41 <Wolf01> Also, it seem that windows logs are different than os x ones, and maybe it is different depending on game version too
17:24:00 <andythenorth> different format?
17:24:03 <andythenorth> or different content?
17:24:27 <Wolf01> Ok, format is plain text
17:24:40 <andythenorth> different key/value pairs?
17:25:02 <andythenorth> just count them if they’re present, otherwise ignore
17:25:30 * andythenorth isn’t actually sure this is useful yet
17:25:35 <andythenorth> but it’s interesting exercise
17:25:38 <Wolf01> Yes, it already does that, but from the log you passed me I can't load a section
17:25:48 <Wolf01> Which works in my logs
17:35:36 <Wolf01> Mmmh there is a F2P trains MMO on steam...
17:38:35 <Wolf01> Ok, not true, not on steam
18:01:06 <frosch123> who is the guy at the end?
18:01:48 <andythenorth> didn’t watch that far :)
18:02:03 <frosch123> well, i mean the one before it restarts :p
18:02:50 <andythenorth> now I am watching again :P
18:04:01 * andythenorth will now present his New OpenTTD Economy All Rebalanced PDF
18:04:47 <frosch123> does it involve sending bitcoins to andy?
18:05:44 <andythenorth> intriguing, but now
18:05:57 <andythenorth> it will involve a lot of typos
18:10:30 <andythenorth> trolling aside, I have started roughing out some ideas
18:10:37 <andythenorth> but it seems like a really hard problem
18:11:01 <andythenorth> somewhere there is an overlap of concerns between towns, economy, cargo payment and maybe industry
18:11:17 <andythenorth> and another overlap between newgrf and GS
18:11:47 <andythenorth> on balance, NoTrees -> newgrf might be more fun :P
18:20:25 <andythenorth> ^ should I just delete that?
18:20:34 <andythenorth> I considered rewriting it
18:20:40 <andythenorth> e.g. “Join irc” etc
18:20:47 <andythenorth> but I think “No” is just easier
18:23:06 <LordAro> definitely needs rewriting
18:23:39 <andythenorth> there’s no delete in a wiki?
18:23:56 <LordAro> something along the lines of "it's important to receive some feedback on your idea first, as it may have already been done, worked on, or otherwise rejected for some reason or another"
18:24:18 <Wolf01> andythenorth: you can redirect those page to a "No" page
18:24:23 <LordAro> needs sysop to delete a page
18:24:56 * andythenorth looks for a list of sysops
18:24:59 <Wolf01> Deleting stuff on internet is always bad
18:25:35 * andythenorth wonders if we could ‘unofficial’ the wiki
18:26:14 <andythenorth> I am twitchy about our wiki because it’s Highly Official
18:26:19 <andythenorth> but also All Wrong
18:26:41 <andythenorth> I don’t care about other people being wrong on the internet...
18:27:10 <andythenorth> we could write some version controlled docs, and literally abandon the wiki :P
18:27:30 <ic111> Isn't there more the caption the problem of that page?
18:27:40 <ic111> The caption tells "how to request a feature"
18:27:57 <ic111> and the text tells me, that I should choose how finished the feature is, measured in percent
18:28:25 <andythenorth> it’s all just wrong :)
18:28:33 <andythenorth> there is no mechanic for ‘requesting a feature'
18:28:46 <andythenorth> that presumes some kind of service is offered
18:29:26 <Wolf01> Eh, make the wiki readonly for non-devs
18:29:55 <Wolf01> Changes to the wiki must be sent with FS
18:30:26 <andythenorth> just need a bonfire
18:32:57 <Wolf01> Some names I've never seen in the latest 6-8 years
18:33:29 <LordAro> probably doesn't need sysop, tbh
18:33:45 <LordAro> some-privilege-higher-than-standard-user
18:34:27 <Wolf01> An admin can do it for sure
18:35:45 <Wolf01> I was editor on a wiki and I could create redirects
18:38:30 <LordAro> anyone can create redirects
18:38:46 <andythenorth> I don’t want to just vandalise
18:38:53 <andythenorth> but currently I’m tempted to just delete the contents
18:39:06 <andythenorth> maybe I should post in forums
18:39:11 <LordAro> i presume there's a "deletion" template somewhere?
18:39:41 <andythenorth> there’s 'outdated'
18:39:49 <andythenorth> but I couldn’t see a ‘deleted'
18:40:34 <ic111> To be honest, I don't completely understand the problem
18:40:59 <ic111> A description what one should do if one has a suggestion IMHO is a senseful thing in such a project
18:41:17 <ic111> I mean, you don't need to use the strong word "request"
18:42:08 <ic111> But changing the page to something like "how to propose a suggestion", together with a link to the suggestion forum, and a clear hint that one should look before, what has already been suggested?
18:43:24 <andythenorth> oh yeah that’s fine
18:43:26 <andythenorth> there’s other stuff
18:44:14 <ic111> In which respect "dead"?
18:47:58 <ic111> Wasn't there a much more detailed list for the latter one (NewGRF_Sets) somewhere?
18:48:07 <ic111> So yes, I see why you need Deletion...
18:51:57 <ic111> Something for the computer archaeologists?
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18:55:09 <andythenorth> pages like this are a waste of people’s lives
19:14:07 <LordAro> andythenorth: i wouldn't say so
19:14:21 <LordAro> i think the subpages are perhaps a bit redundant
19:23:55 <andythenorth> but we can generate openttd.cfg from the src
19:24:04 <andythenorth> people writing it all out again…blearch
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19:43:07 <andythenorth> web translations have been a massive win for OpenTTD, yes/no?
19:44:29 <Alberth> at least for newgrf and scripts
19:44:41 <andythenorth> it’s nice to win
19:45:03 * andythenorth is on a wiki rampage
19:45:11 <andythenorth> wondering about writing some actual docs
19:45:12 <Alberth> openttd itself has had a web translator for eons :)
19:45:32 <andythenorth> wondering if we can have a docs project, fed by pull requests, and encourage translations of the docs
19:46:00 <andythenorth> wiki is as wiki does
19:46:02 <Alberth> of course you can have a docs project
19:46:09 <andythenorth> some of wiki is…great
19:46:14 <andythenorth> some is just old
19:46:53 <andythenorth> every docs project I’ve been involved in
19:47:04 <andythenorth> gets stuck on an argument about ‘use Sphinx or not?'
19:49:02 <Alberth> sphinx is nice, but somewhat complicated
19:49:54 <Alberth> markdown may be enough for a wiki-ish thing
19:50:11 <Alberth> eclipse picked asciidoc, never looked at it
19:51:16 <andythenorth> it can import from a repo
19:52:05 <frosch123> why would other stuff be better than the wiki?
19:52:16 <andythenorth> that is the question
19:52:18 <andythenorth> and I don’t know
19:52:31 <andythenorth> on a subjective level, I hate the wiki theme
19:52:38 <andythenorth> and I wouldn’t want to try and fix that
19:52:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: that's just because it's old
19:52:46 <Alberth> wiki lacks main structure, imho
19:52:53 <andythenorth> wiki is as wiki does
19:52:53 <LordAro> newer mediawiki's have different themes
19:53:07 <andythenorth> everyone knows the strengths and weaknesses of wikis, eh?
19:53:31 <LordAro> regardless, this constant bikeshedding is useless
19:53:42 <andythenorth> where’s the nuclear reactor? o_O
19:53:51 <LordAro> andythenorth: north korea
19:54:01 <andythenorth> and the one we’re approving?
19:54:33 <Alberth> what I mean is, I think it would help if you have a table of contents (probably 2 levels or so)
19:55:11 <andythenorth> the current FAQ pages in the wiki are pretty sound imo
19:55:13 <andythenorth> I just read them
19:55:50 <frosch123> Alberth: anything a bot or extension couldn't solve?
19:56:44 <Alberth> can it orgianize things in logical coherent groups?
19:57:05 <andythenorth> it probably needs a human
19:57:16 <frosch123> does any other thing do that automatically? :p
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19:57:59 <Alberth> if you have a book, you can see what's in it, and add content at a logical place
19:58:17 <Alberth> wiki has no back-bone structure like that
19:58:18 <andythenorth> it helps to go trawling the wiki, which I have just done for 2 hours
19:58:45 <andythenorth> FWIW, I’m doing this (1) personal interest (2) projects with strong documentation culture AND nice docs are more fun
20:00:43 <frosch123> why would you edit openttd.cfg manually?
20:00:58 <Alberth> bit too much for one page, but fair enough
20:01:05 <andythenorth> “because it’s a wiki” frosch123 :)
20:01:11 <andythenorth> although I wanted to say same
20:01:16 <andythenorth> with more swears
20:01:43 <frosch123> well, i have no idea who would be interested in maintaining that site
20:02:09 <frosch123> but apparently people even translated it
20:02:21 <andythenorth> how ‘official’ is the wiki?
20:02:28 <andythenorth> it’s pretty much fan-curated?
20:02:55 <frosch123> yes, there are no official docs, except the noai/gs reference, and that is doxygen
20:03:16 <andythenorth> noai/gs works really well btw
20:03:26 <frosch123> it's a "dump your info" place, and i don't see how anything else would fly
20:03:44 <andythenorth> it’s so long since I started playing
20:03:54 <andythenorth> that I can’t think how to write a ‘get started’ guide :)
20:04:39 <andythenorth> if I can be arsed, I could just start a repo and a readthedocs account?
20:04:45 <andythenorth> it would be ‘unofficial’ but eh
20:05:03 <frosch123> what would it be better in?
20:05:16 <frosch123> that everything is written by you?
20:05:22 <frosch123> how far would you get?
20:05:31 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
20:05:57 <andythenorth> I would bet that it it more likely to go on the pile of ‘failed ideas'
20:06:06 <andythenorth> also that I would get pissed off with the idea
20:06:30 <andythenorth> well in one respect it’s a good time to do it
20:06:38 <andythenorth> game doesn’t need to change much between releases
20:06:47 <andythenorth> it’s a nice stable situation
20:07:00 <frosch123> there was a dude on the german forums, wrote a book about ottd, sold it 2 times
20:07:15 <andythenorth> ‘the missing manual’? :)
20:07:29 <frosch123> it also had a chapter how to play with firs or something
20:07:41 <andythenorth> there are multiple youtube guides now too
20:08:01 <andythenorth> and the redditors
20:08:04 <frosch123> though iirc the guy never player with firs, so it likely was more like "first impressions with firs"
20:10:48 <frosch123> 4k pages on the wiki, assuming that at least half are translation, you have 10 per day :)
20:11:37 <Alberth> just update of the manual would be enough imho
20:12:11 <frosch123> so you want to separate "manual" and "random dumping place"?
20:12:49 <andythenorth> I am not going to ‘fix’ the wiki
20:13:00 <Alberth> me? no, but a lot of pages are about old versions
20:13:34 <andythenorth> eh, partly I got motivated becuase of the CityBuilder docs :)
20:15:35 <frosch123> every vehicle newgrf has a similar page
20:15:55 <frosch123> so it's probably valid
20:16:21 <andythenorth> I dropped most of the stats though
20:17:35 <andythenorth> what would a manual say?
20:20:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: the installer already gets opengfx
20:20:27 <andythenorth> well, it’s all solved then :)
20:20:31 <frosch123> see, the page about "installing openttd" confuses me
20:20:42 <frosch123> wouldn't you rather start with a page how to use the mouse?
20:20:50 <frosch123> or how to find the installation instructions?
20:21:06 <andythenorth> we had some docs at work that explained how to search
20:21:11 <andythenorth> ‘type your query in the box'
20:21:17 <andythenorth> ‘press “search”'
20:21:23 <andythenorth> I requested them deleted :P
20:21:53 <frosch123> or is the purpose of those pages to get linked to?
20:22:06 <andythenorth> something I see well-intentioned docs writers do
20:22:10 <frosch123> like wolf could link it to his friend, so he does not need to explain how to run ottd in screen
20:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: don't underestimate the stupidity of the average user
20:22:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I disagree :)
20:22:34 <andythenorth> based on having 6,000 customers often with low computer literacy
20:22:39 <andythenorth> they aren’t stupid
20:22:55 <andythenorth> but some do need support, and the ones that do…don’t read docs
20:23:28 <andythenorth> so well-intentioned docs writers…often explain the obvious bits in depth
20:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: compare that with the hours that i wasted because someone forgot to include something in the docs that they thought was obvious...
20:23:40 <andythenorth> even though everyone would figure it out
20:23:59 <andythenorth> but the hard bits are often then under-explained
20:24:02 <andythenorth> or badly explained
20:24:25 <andythenorth> and hence ‘delivering goods causes town growth'
20:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people tried documenting "rubbing coins on the side of the device does not help coins getting accepted", that did never stop people
20:26:20 <andythenorth> it’s hard to beat intuition eh?
20:29:07 <andythenorth> frosch123: linking, dunno?
20:29:43 <andythenorth> I think I’ve found some outdated dev pages in wiki, looked some more, added 1+1, and come out with 42
20:29:55 <andythenorth> there are _probably_ more interesting problems, but eh
20:31:58 <andythenorth> reducing it to simplest, I would rather dev page of wiki said ‘find us on [github | gitlab]’
20:33:59 <andythenorth> for rest…I’d sooner forget it and do something fun :)
20:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> dev pages are always outdated
20:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> because devs are busy deving and not updating dev pages
20:34:57 <andythenorth> in the last 10 years, all the tools for this stuff have completely evolved
20:35:18 <andythenorth> ‘state of dev’ is ‘read git log'
20:35:26 <andythenorth> ‘patches’ is ‘branches + irc logs'
20:35:48 <andythenorth> ‘how to build’ should just be in readme, which is replicated online in mulltiple place
20:36:50 <frosch123> with ascii art screenshots?
20:37:12 <andythenorth> we need more unicode points :P
20:37:31 <andythenorth> unicode-killed-ascii-art?
20:55:50 <andythenorth> or waste of time?
20:57:17 <ic111> It states that reviews are done on openttd.dev
20:57:29 <ic111> But, at least given the logs, there is silence, people talk here
20:58:50 <ic111> I must admit, that this confused me either, in that I took the activity at openttd.dev is indicator of the overall activity
21:05:49 <andythenorth> yeah that needs fixed
21:06:41 <andythenorth> it’s a bit misleading about openttd.dev
21:11:21 <frosch123> better remove all explicit content and make it only a link to the wiki
21:11:42 <frosch123> easier to edit (than andy's readthedocs) :p
21:12:43 <LordAro> sometimes something like readthedocs is better than a set of protected wiki pages
21:12:51 <LordAro> pull requests, for one
21:13:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: are you quite -1 to external docs :)
21:13:18 <frosch123> LordAro: i think there is no single protected page
21:13:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am +1 to simple permission management
21:13:47 <frosch123> make it easy for people to edit tuff
21:13:55 <LordAro> frosch123: what do you mean?
21:14:15 <frosch123> LordAro: i think our wiki has about none protected pages
21:15:08 <frosch123> hmm, the special page to list them is broken :/
21:15:19 <andythenorth> that was a trigger actually
21:15:26 <LordAro> oh jees, mediawiki 1.19
21:15:33 <andythenorth> I didn’t want to be bothering frosch123 or Alberth about locked wiki pages
21:15:36 <LordAro> they're up to 1.29 now
21:15:41 <andythenorth> seemed like a waste of people’s time
21:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: you're volunteering to keep it uptodate?
21:16:41 <frosch123> so, protected pages are: roadmaps, todo list, "to do for releases", various wiki-internal sites
21:17:07 <LordAro> once i've finished with the 2 other wiki's i'm currently working on..
21:17:30 <LordAro> frosch123: probably related to the spamblacklist plugin?
21:17:51 <LordAro> not that it's been touched in over a decade
21:18:08 <frosch123> well, spam is only added manually these days, removing their sites with a bot scared them away
21:19:01 <frosch123> as in: there used to be regular search-machine-index scam on the wiki, which i used to delete manually
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21:19:27 <frosch123> then i got tired and wrote a bot, and after first use they stopped
21:19:38 <LordAro> but yeah, i could definitely take a look at upgrading the wiki at some point in the future
21:19:45 <LordAro> once i've cleared my backlog of wiki updates :)
21:19:58 <LordAro> i am far too familiar with it by this point
21:20:22 <LordAro> doesn't look too bad in terms of plugins
21:20:36 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Hi Andy.
21:21:07 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Do you have more power for helping me? :)
21:21:08 <LordAro> i'd imagine most of the difficulty would be upgrading to a version of debian newer than oldoldstable
21:21:24 <LordAro> depending how it's setup
21:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a music puzzle
21:21:26 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: try it and see
21:21:31 <andythenorth> maybe / maybe not
21:22:48 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Ok, it makes sence. :)
21:31:08 <andythenorth> life, babies, animals
21:31:08 <V453000> but got drunk yesterday and brain still in retard mode
21:31:18 <V453000> trying to put together final form of temperate trees
21:31:33 <andythenorth> can talk bollocks instead?
21:31:43 * andythenorth is having a holiday from MOAR
21:31:59 * andythenorth pretending to fix docs instead
21:32:24 <andythenorth> V453000: you write good docs
21:32:40 <andythenorth> "OpenTTD: Missing Manual (by V453000 and andythenorth)”
21:32:51 <Wolf01> All hail our new overlord andythenorth
21:33:03 <andythenorth> Wolf01: no is unofficial
21:33:16 <V453000> so what kind of manual
21:33:29 <andythenorth> 3. Don’t lick pixels
21:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy who made an "unofficial" manual (in german)
21:34:16 <andythenorth> frosch said he sold 2 copies of it
21:34:33 <V453000> 4. using cargodist, PBS, zbase, terrain variety distribution, ECS and flyspray for dumb requests is punishable by death
21:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yeah. something like that :p
21:35:06 <ic111> Is there really no positive vision about contributing to the codebase? Things were help is appreciated, and similar? The way how this page, and similar pages, is written now to a patch developer reads like 'This game is called OpenTTD, but you should not try to contribute' (a bit overstated)
21:35:25 <andythenorth> ic111 dunno, we can try and rewrite it?
21:35:41 <ic111> It's just the impression I had when reading it
21:35:51 <andythenorth> basically, we already have a queue of patches, and some of them even look not shit
21:36:08 <andythenorth> more patches just seems to increase pressure on remaining developers to review
21:36:14 <andythenorth> they can either ignore pressure, or quite
21:36:40 <andythenorth> neither outcome is optimum all round :P
21:36:43 <ic111> LordAro: Ok, I didn't read that one
21:37:26 <LordAro> ic111: i wouldn't have expected you to? :p
21:37:38 <LordAro> or did you see "open" and not read any further? :p
21:37:58 <ic111> Sorry, I don't understand
21:38:16 <ic111> Maybe place a link to the contributing-pages at the how-to-request-a-feature-page?
21:38:17 <LordAro> those links are for openage, not openttd
21:38:41 <ic111> I copied the link and started to read
21:38:43 <andythenorth> ic111: possibilities for positive things to do
21:38:54 <andythenorth> - review crashes in flyspray, and try to diagnose
21:39:02 <andythenorth> - review bugs in flyspray and try to repro
21:39:08 <andythenorth> - improve wiki docs
21:39:26 <ic111> Then IMHO you should notice that were you currently simply write "it is very unlikely that we accept your patch"
21:40:27 <andythenorth> wikis being wikis, ours has tended to grow official-looking patch lists, feature request lists etc
21:40:48 <andythenorth> I was just trying to unfuck the feature requests page, which was basically lies, which makes me uncomfortable
21:41:08 <ic111> Certainly a senseful job...
21:41:12 <andythenorth> maybe I should just have deleted the ‘how to feature requests’ section
21:41:16 <andythenorth> and marked the page as old
21:41:50 <LordAro> andythenorth: or delete & link to FAQ Development
21:42:16 <andythenorth> delete the section?
21:42:36 <LordAro> mark page as historical
21:43:08 <andythenorth> I considered deleting the page, but updating it proved the point that newgrf / GS content wins
21:43:49 <ic111> Well... Not all can be done by NewGrf / GS, and not in all circumstances IMHO it is the best option
21:44:42 <ic111> IMHO it just has its limitations, as every tool has
21:46:45 <ic111> But, regarding the above point, of course pointing out that this is a stable game is valid, but if I listen here, then I don't have the feeling that there are no ideas for senseful codechanges around
21:47:18 *** y2000rtc has joined #openttd
21:47:24 <ic111> So, IMHO one should try to direct people into a senseful direction, instead of telling them "senseless to contribute" (again overstated)
21:48:07 <andythenorth> we’re slightly trapped, in that the number of people left who can review
21:48:15 <andythenorth> is possibly too small to increase the number of people who can review
21:48:52 <ic111> Yes, this is probably a problem
21:54:33 <ic111> Maybe this is something one could mention on such pages: (1) We have little manpower to review patches, as we all do this in our spare time, (2) We have little time to review patches that in an unnecessary way deviate from coding style etc., so try to deliver us quality, (3) Thus, be prepared to wait for a longer time, maybe no one finds the time for your patch at all,
21:58:53 <andythenorth> it’s kinder than mine
21:59:00 <andythenorth> I’m just inclined to make it more of a game :P
21:59:10 <andythenorth> I get a lot of ponies
21:59:30 <andythenorth> and I treat each one as a game, trying to find out how to get someone interested, and what I have to do to help
21:59:39 <andythenorth> just turning up and demanding…doesn’t work
22:00:03 <andythenorth> unfortunately, even a well prepared patch can appear like a demand, to a reviewer
22:00:11 <andythenorth> it wasn’t always asked for, then it becomes work
22:00:27 <andythenorth> and someone who is rejected is naturally offended, where no offense was intended
22:01:46 <ic111> Basically, this is the question which features are in theory appreciated, if someone does the work, and which are regarded as unnecessary / unwanted
22:02:04 <_dp_> hmm... I just checked my patches and curiously it seems that none of my patches that were merged I ever brought up in irc
22:02:10 <_dp_> ones that I did are still open :p
22:02:17 <andythenorth> empiricism > theory
22:05:06 <andythenorth> ic111 it’s impossible for me to answer
22:05:32 <andythenorth> based on the last 12 months, only peter113*, frosch, alberth and adf88 can answer for what’s appreciated ;)
22:06:08 <andythenorth> it’s easy to say stuff like ‘code style’, ‘doesn’t desync’ etc
22:06:20 <andythenorth> but I can’t give more guide than that
22:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: what's the takeaway here? if you keep your patches secret they get merged easier? :p
22:06:58 <Eddi|zuHause> correlation > causality :p
22:09:01 <andythenorth> ic111: probably distinguish feature / patch quite strongly
22:09:15 <andythenorth> codechange / fix patches get added at a pretty good rate imho
22:09:32 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, no takeaway, just observation :p
22:10:24 <andythenorth> V453000: haz tried JGR patchpack?
22:10:33 <V453000> probably yes at some point
22:10:45 <_dp_> btw, I don't think I've ever heard anything like "that's a great idea, code it and we'll merge it" here.
22:10:47 <V453000> generally I boycott patches unless someone really makes me try it for some reason
22:10:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: patches are no anonymous submission. a patch by someone is easier to review if the previous patch by that person was easy to review
22:10:56 <V453000> mainly cause save compatibility
22:11:02 <_dp_> even though people constantly suggest stuff
22:11:34 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: If you don't publicise things to random semi-interested people, they don't get bikeshedded?
22:12:22 <andythenorth> V453000 JGR pack is packed full of NEW
22:13:57 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> V453000 JGR pack is packed full of NEW <- while our ambition is packed full of Not*
22:14:24 <andythenorth> it’s worth trying
22:14:41 <andythenorth> I think it’s really good having a giant patch pack full of everything
22:15:06 <andythenorth> it’s a place to try the ideas, instead of hot air theorising
22:15:14 <Wolf01> BTW, could we finish NRT?
22:15:17 * andythenorth would _never_ just talk about something :P
22:15:38 <andythenorth> Wolf01 yes, but we’ve got merge conflicts with openttd master
22:15:42 <andythenorth> and I can’t fix them
22:16:01 <Wolf01> I could try to fix them, where are the conflicts?
22:16:43 <andythenorth> have you got openttd set up as a remote?
22:17:11 <Wolf01> No, is nrt/master in sync?
22:17:32 <_dp_> andythenorth, that's 2012, I was hardly even playing openttd back then :p
22:17:53 <andythenorth> my patching success was short-lived :P
22:18:41 <Wolf01> WTF github doesn't have a button for swapping base with compare?
22:19:39 <andythenorth> but it’s confusing
22:19:49 <andythenorth> it is there in the UI I swear
22:20:03 <V453000> some of the patches are pretty impressive, mostly the quality of life gui stuff, things like signals on bridges etc are plain dumb shit, but moar better UI is definitely a good way to go in my opinion
22:20:23 <_dp_> that callback though... I remember not liking it for some reason :p
22:20:28 <andythenorth> the zoom out viewport worked better than I thought
22:20:37 <andythenorth> I was 99% certain it would chug
22:20:41 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> it is there in the UI I swear <- it only appear if you don't have any commit
22:20:49 <andythenorth> it’s useless zooming out to 128x but eh
22:21:39 <Wolf01> Zooming out to > 8x is useless, but zooming out to minimap is really nice... see factorio
22:22:30 <_dp_> ah, I remembery why, it makes default production levels totally unconfigurable :p
22:22:46 <andythenorth> V453000: try using build-and-refit in game, it’s total shit
22:23:07 <michi_cc> And if the existing patch for that wouldn't duplicate and reimplement the whole minimap code it might've already been merged.
22:23:38 <andythenorth> it adds a toggle, pointless
22:23:42 <V453000> wait how exactly does it work?
22:23:45 <andythenorth> and lang strings won’t work
22:23:55 <V453000> it builds the vehicle in the refit that you were filtering?
22:24:01 <Wolf01> Build and refit should be the standard action for refitable vehicles
22:24:03 <V453000> I might be misunderstanding
22:24:31 <Wolf01> Luckily the grfs I use support refit at station
22:25:14 <andythenorth> it’s not a crap idea
22:25:19 <andythenorth> it’s just a crap implementation
22:25:25 <andythenorth> lots of the patches have awful UI
22:25:33 <andythenorth> it just adds mess
22:25:36 <Wolf01> Like the current UI is state of art
22:25:44 <andythenorth> it’s mostly coherent
22:26:04 <Wolf01> Lol... we have 265 styles on different UIs
22:26:36 <andythenorth> Wolf01: JGR patchpack is a clean compile - try it :)
22:26:53 <andythenorth> it’s a good vision of how the UI collapses into hell if patches are just added with no desgin
22:27:01 <Wolf01> Yeah, but I'm afraid to abandon trunk if I try that
22:27:39 <andythenorth> it has your measure tool in it :)
22:28:11 <_dp_> hm, to me it looks that build and refit is no faster than doing it with regular interface...
22:28:20 <andythenorth> it’s not a bad idea
22:28:21 <_dp_> but I usually know what wagon I need
22:28:22 <V453000> really not that much useful in these 60 patches tbh
22:28:35 <_dp_> mb it will be better if it said like "buy and refit to oil"
22:28:57 * andythenorth stops discussing buy-and-refit before FLHerne says ‘bikeshedding’ again :)
22:29:22 <andythenorth> the local authority overlay is pretty good in JGR
22:29:53 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, until you look at code :p
22:30:16 <V453000> doing something about breakdowns would be awesome, Hirundo makes it better by adding variety, but I think the most critical problem is still there - properly serviced vehicles should never break down. Not realistic, but gameplay do stuff - get rewarded good. Maybe at least something along the lines like the train-stopping breakdowns would be prevented when reliability would be above some threshold would make sense.
22:30:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, looping over all towns for each tile
22:30:31 <V453000> though I don't think you can explain reliability with people pulling emergency brakes XD can remove that one
22:30:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Eh, I love that patch :P
22:30:52 * andythenorth proposes newgrf tile overlays :P
22:30:59 <_dp_> and those frame sprites don't make great overlays either
22:31:10 <FLHerne> Hey, that's a pretty cool idea actually
22:31:11 <andythenorth> and it should be on transparency
22:31:18 <andythenorth> newgrf can read town
22:31:22 <andythenorth> newgrf can read other stuff
22:31:40 <_dp_> yeah, but transparency is probably a no go for 8 bit
22:31:51 <andythenorth> I mean it should be on transparency palette
22:32:14 <andythenorth> not a separate whole new window called ‘zoning'
22:32:35 <andythenorth> which I first thought was an implementation of the zones in original sim city
22:32:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am very much in favour of highlighting stuff, like station catchment toggleable in station window etc... it just needs a shared solution, which means refactoring instead of feature-jumping
22:32:42 <V453000> made some progress on trees :) iz good
22:33:03 <andythenorth> having tried JGR PP, and read the threads for the patches
22:33:09 <frosch123> but we did not even figure out the transparency gui :p
22:33:11 <andythenorth> it all lacks any architecture
22:33:35 <andythenorth> at least where I see it, in UI
22:33:40 * andythenorth can’t speak for code
22:34:01 <andythenorth> (scroll for picture)
22:34:34 <ic111> frosch123: When I hear something like this, then I ask me the question why things like that ("needs refactoring") isn't mentioned on a how-to-contribute-page?
22:34:42 <_dp_> andythenorth, ah, dunno, it doesn't quite fit there. zoning is usually something you want to just check and hide again
22:34:54 <_dp_> andythenorth, and transparency you set up once and use hotkey
22:35:09 <andythenorth> yes - check and hide again - just like toggling transparency on and off
22:35:14 <FLHerne> Useful things in JGRPP, IMO: Restrictive signals, conditional-order-by-train-length, buy-and-refit, usable level crossings, town-cargo factor
22:35:18 <andythenorth> it’s even the same case
22:35:35 <andythenorth> hiding houses or industries is when you’re constructing, which is also when overlays for LA are wanted
22:36:10 <andythenorth> FLHerne: how do the restrictive signals work, didn’t get that far yet?
22:36:14 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's only transpacency mode that gets toggled, individual settings in palette usually are not
22:36:16 <FLHerne> A lot of the other stuff is either really niche or not useful or doesn't really work
22:36:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You can have signals that disallow trains >n length, or not carrying X
22:36:48 <_dp_> andythenorth, and btw some zonings make more sense combined with building tools
22:37:00 <FLHerne> andythenorth: They let you take a lot of really messy conditional waypoint orders out
22:37:13 <andythenorth> oh god, even more signals in the UI :(
22:37:17 <_dp_> or industry placement (that's not in jgrpp)
22:37:23 <FLHerne> (possibly more so if you're overabusing station refits)
22:37:37 <andythenorth> _dp_: eh you might be right
22:38:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, you set rules on normal signals
22:38:09 <FLHerne> There's no extra type
22:38:17 <andythenorth> there’s an orange one
22:38:27 <andythenorth> there are now 14 signals
22:38:36 <andythenorth> of those, most people only need PBS colour light
22:38:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, that's progsigs. Different patch :P
22:39:01 <andythenorth> there’s a spanner icon
22:39:10 <andythenorth> fix broken signals?
22:39:22 <andythenorth> new breakdown mode: signal failure
22:39:32 <FLHerne> I have a gear, but not a spanner. Otherbaseset?
22:40:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The one that says "Routefinding restriction" is the useful one
22:40:36 <andythenorth> trying to make it work
22:40:37 <FLHerne> Progsigs theoretically seem nice, but they're far too much of a pain to actually bother with in any real game
22:40:48 <andythenorth> it even has a right arrow in case you want to move the viewport 100px
22:40:51 <andythenorth> fantastic feature
22:41:03 <andythenorth> glad that’s there
22:41:22 <FLHerne> Click "Routefinding restriction", click a signal, set the restrictions
22:41:55 <andythenorth> it’s one of those UIs
22:42:00 <andythenorth> that would be easier if it wasn’t
22:42:13 <andythenorth> stuff like this is just easier to type in code
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22:42:36 <andythenorth> rather than 7 shit buttons
22:43:11 <FLHerne> OTOH, having to read syntax documention before playing would be a bit of a nuisance
22:43:36 <andythenorth> it also has the ‘load by cargo’ UI
22:43:44 <_dp_> can't tl be checked with rails/presignals?
22:44:00 <FLHerne> Some kind of draggable-blocks thing would be nice, but wouldn't really fit with the UI style :P
22:44:03 <andythenorth> ha I like the ‘automate’ button on timetables
22:44:13 <andythenorth> nah, nothing happened
22:44:25 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, that one's far more useful than it ought to be for being a disgusting hack
22:44:55 <FLHerne> Basically, it dynamically fucks with each vehicle's timetable to keep them a constant distance apart
22:45:26 <FLHerne> Doesn't work with ships, because timetables don't work for ships for some stupid reason
22:46:14 <FLHerne> Gets problematic if you have congestion, because it only separates vehicles by delaying them, and you can get in a loop where it essentially freezes all the vehicles
22:47:04 <andythenorth> I only tried timetables with ships
22:47:05 <FLHerne> (because vehicles on route A wait for a slot, and delay vehicles on route B, so then the next A gets delayed and every other A gets delayed to compensate, which delays all the Bs...)
22:47:10 <andythenorth> is that why I declared them broken?
22:47:32 <FLHerne> I mean, they're broken for everything else too from a sane perspective
22:47:35 <andythenorth> total no-op as far as I could tell
22:47:36 <FLHerne> But at least they /work/
22:47:48 <FLHerne> Yeah, ship timetables literally do nothing
22:47:50 <andythenorth> I clicked all the buttons as instructed, ships travel bunched together
22:47:57 <andythenorth> because crap patches
22:48:31 <FLHerne> I think they're broken in trunk also
22:48:42 <FLHerne> Or featured, possibly
22:48:59 <andythenorth> yes, I tried them in trunk
22:49:05 <FLHerne> Well, I suppose that would also be down to crap patches
22:49:07 <andythenorth> I have been offensive about them ever since
22:49:39 <frosch123> i guess i never used ships with timetables, but i also have never seens a bugreport about them :)
22:49:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Try them on RVs instead, don't worry, you can continue to be offensive about them
22:50:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: I assumed EBKC
22:50:26 <Wolf01> Mmm I'm a special kind of stupid... "lets start netflix and watch a tv show while listening to music"
22:50:27 <FLHerne> Hey, where did all the bugs go?
22:50:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I heard you were removing random FS tasks
22:50:53 <andythenorth> I didn’t quite get as far as randomising
22:51:13 <FLHerne> For some reason, my FS bookmark was for some arbitrary search result
22:51:26 <FLHerne> So I only saw 8 tasks, total...
22:52:41 <andythenorth> I didn’t get that far…
22:53:18 <FLHerne> (not sure about aircraft, I don't use them really)
23:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, i bought "deponia" and already i'm hopelessly stuck in the first chapter...
23:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like i've grown more impatient about being stuck in adventures
23:04:20 <Wolf01> I've finished it with one ending
23:04:28 <Alkel_U3> I haven't managed to get out of the house where it starts yet
23:04:34 <Wolf01> TBH I liked more primordia
23:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: i managed that once i found out i can hold space bar to view "interesting" pieces
23:07:13 <Wolf01> I tried the "droggeljug" mode, where every dialog is changed with "droggeljug droggeljug droggeljug"
23:08:51 <Alkel_U3> Eddi|zuHause: ah, thanks for the tip, that might get me somwhere
23:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: it took me going to the menu and browsing the tips for that :p
23:10:13 <Wolf01> Could I be able do play a skirmish in halo wars 2 this evening? It's being loading for 5 minutes
23:10:20 <ic111> andythenorth: Yes, IMHO the present timetable system is some sort of a bug... (otherwise I wouldn't spent so much time on that)
23:20:21 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> one day he finds the bedtime, i'm sure.
continue to next day ⏵
