IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-09-02
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05:07:53 <nekomaster> So i'm having a bit of an issue with a new project I'm working on
05:08:14 <nekomaster> RAIL type vehicles only appear when I have a Trackset loaded
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09:05:28 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
09:14:19 <LordAro> probably harmless, if a bit redundant
09:14:22 <andythenorth> good, or reject?
09:15:13 <LordAro> that decision needs a dev :p
09:21:39 <andythenorth> _dp_: ^ tested it
09:25:28 <andythenorth> big UI change, based on a thread with no clear outcome
09:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't be so quick to throw that out
09:28:56 <andythenorth> I’m not testing that :P
09:29:19 <andythenorth> I’ve hit the end of easily-rejected FS
09:29:52 <andythenorth> I’m working down the list of 64 FS categorised as patch
09:30:04 <andythenorth> seeing if they are testable by me
09:30:23 <andythenorth> common problems with testing:
09:30:44 <andythenorth> - not clear what the intended change would be, so no criteria to test
09:31:11 <andythenorth> - hg patch queues (I refuse, $someone else can do those)
09:31:47 <andythenorth> - codechanges/refactoring with no obvious gameplay result to test
09:32:18 <andythenorth> - patches don’t apply on repo tip I’m using for testing
09:32:39 <andythenorth> - patches are for an OS I don’t have
09:34:28 <LordAro> that's funny because the patch queues are the ones more likely to be accepted :p
09:34:41 <andythenorth> is that historically true?
09:34:47 <andythenorth> I haven’t been through closed patches
09:35:18 <LordAro> i've no idea, but devs very much prefer the smaller individual changes over the large single patch
09:36:16 <andythenorth> presumably I can apply them in git, I just have to read the revs to get them in the right order?
09:36:26 <andythenorth> or are they order-independent?
09:36:42 <LordAro> hopefully the files are prefixed by numbers
09:36:50 <LordAro> so it's obvious which order they are in
09:37:01 <LordAro> `git am` *might* be able to apply them
09:37:21 <LordAro> i did that with ic's improved timetables, but it required some manual steps
09:37:53 <andythenorth> presumably 00 is applied, then 01?
09:38:00 <andythenorth> anything else would seem daft
09:41:22 <andythenorth> seems to be a lot of stuff around filtering
09:41:33 <andythenorth> filter news, filter stations, filter vehicles, filter industry
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09:45:52 <Alberth> 5695 (Patch to make filter_funcs members of BuildVehicleWindow ) doesn't look terribly interesting
09:46:01 <Alberth> just move some code in the same file
09:46:49 <andythenorth> basically a no-op?
09:47:09 <Alberth> it's now a function in the file, it becomes a function of that class
09:47:26 <andythenorth> at work, we effectively ban changes like that
09:47:27 <Alberth> but we have static filter functions all over the place
09:47:39 <andythenorth> for no customer benefit
09:47:43 <Alberth> and many of them are shared
09:47:52 <andythenorth> tends to originate with less experienced engineers
09:48:03 <andythenorth> but sometimes has unintended consequences which show up later
09:48:13 <Alberth> by "hiding" them in the class, you reduce the chance that it will be found for re-use
09:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be useful if we were to move towards some cleaner object-oriented model. but just randomly moving it without following such a larger architectural goal is probably useless
09:49:09 <Alberth> I am not even sure you can make a clean OO model for this
09:49:23 <Alberth> sharing stuff isn't a storing point in OO :p
09:50:43 <Alberth> 6381 (SetRating) is not implemented currently, and I am very doubtful it should be
09:51:31 <Alberth> ie the first thing that happens is that some one will write "outstandingGS" that pushes all cities to outstanding rating no matter what you do
09:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> why is that a bad thing?
09:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> people request that all the time
09:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and the answer is always "use magic bulldozer", which does a bit too much
09:53:01 <Alberth> let's just have a completely flat world without any obstacle
09:53:25 <Alberth> it defeats an obstacle in the game
09:53:35 <Alberth> just like signals on bridges
09:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so? lots of other obstacles left
09:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> people can (and do) already create completely flat maps
09:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> not all people, but some people
09:54:11 <Alberth> sure, and that's fine
09:54:38 <Alberth> but why do you use water if you don't want obstacles?
09:54:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a game. people should be able to remove the annoying limitations of a game and keep the interesting ones
09:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> what's annoying and what's interesting varies between people and playstyles
09:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "this doesn't align with <random dev>'s playstyle" is not a good reason to reject gameplay features
09:56:50 <Alberth> so we just accept any patch?
09:58:11 <Alberth> ie ignore TE and power on engines patch?>
09:58:38 <Alberth> I mean, it's just horrible annoying that steam trains do'n to 40000 km/h
09:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: if enough people requested that? why not?
09:59:38 <Alberth> disable crashes en ignore signals patch?
09:59:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's a perfectly fine cheat.
10:01:33 <Alberth> cheats are just a way to hide some functions that we like less, imho
10:01:47 <Alberth> move all cheats to plain functions in the game?
10:02:13 <Alberth> I don't see any border where to guide on, any more
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10:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i'd split it into "disable crashes of trains with road vehicles" [possibly vehicle breaks down instead], and "disable crashes between two trains" [trains behave like road vehicles]
10:03:03 <Alberth> yeah, there are a zillion variations how to do it
10:03:18 <Alberth> I was just dumping random weird ideas to find a border
10:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we'll come to an agreement about this.
10:05:18 <Alberth> I wasn't going to reject 6381, but I won't add it either
10:05:32 <Alberth> seems likely, Eddi :)
10:06:04 <LordAro> Alberth: isn't the whole point of andy's close spree that doing nothing with an issue is bad?
10:06:17 <LordAro> close it or engage in some sort of dialogue about it
10:06:23 <Alberth> any picture for 5981 ?
10:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: how was this not a dialog? :p
10:06:50 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, which ended in "i'm not going to do anything with it"
10:07:20 <Alberth> you can close issues as much as you like, but that doesn't stop the stream
10:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: yeah, next step would be looking for a dev willing to take it on
10:08:34 <Alberth> so it sits there, and then it's our fault
10:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we might not have enough devs, and not the infrastructure/coordination to regularly discuss open requests like that
10:12:35 * andythenorth might have a product for that :P
10:23:01 <andythenorth> it’s ok, any issue over 3 years old naturally dies
10:23:21 <andythenorth> eventually the number of FS is ~constant, because they’re dying at rate they’re added
10:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that logic does not quite add up :p
10:31:38 <LordAro> Alberth: i don't mean to assign blame at all. it just seems pointless to leave it there to do nothing if it's just going to rot until an andy comes along and deletes it
10:34:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I’m assuming a constant rate of addition per day
10:34:32 <andythenorth> and an equivalent constant rate of closure
10:35:04 <andythenorth> I think that’s testable :P
10:39:01 <andythenorth> Alberth: for the record, I like 6381, I think GS should pretty much have carte-blanche :)
10:39:23 <andythenorth> delegating behaviours we don’t like to content is a good approach
10:41:18 <Alberth> LordAro: if the issues address things I see as problem too, it's simple to "be on top of them"
10:41:39 <Alberth> in OpenTTD, it's much like the suggestions forum, you get basically everything
10:42:10 <Alberth> ie the more mature the project, the more diverse the issues, as core stuff is running
10:43:29 <LordAro> perhaps it needs to be bundled under a larger "sandbox mode" issue
10:43:34 <LordAro> in this particular case
10:43:59 <Alberth> even more sand than we have now? :D
10:46:26 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I never applied for reviewing and judging random patches that have no meaning to me, and I think that holds for all
10:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: lots of people end up doing things they didn't apply for :p
10:47:33 <Alberth> so it's basically down to the devs interest
10:47:55 <Alberth> if I get paid, I don't care (much) :p
10:48:12 <andythenorth> I was thinking same other day, in a positive way
10:48:29 <andythenorth> was going to reply in one of recent forum threads, but didn’t find correct words
10:48:52 <andythenorth> variation of “what I make, I make for me"
10:49:06 <andythenorth> I like that there are players, and I like have players use my stuff
10:49:24 <andythenorth> but my objective when I started wasn’t popularity or download counts
10:49:30 <Alberth> that doesn't hold much for me, I am more interested in solving the technical problem
10:49:51 <Alberth> if other like it too, that's bonus
10:50:27 <Alberth> but that's also a personal thing, different people have different goals
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10:53:39 <Alberth> I think if you want to have a dev look at it, you have to "sell" it to some extent
10:54:51 <LordAro> s/"sell" it/nag them constantly/
10:55:02 <Alberth> ie the big UI change 5981, it doesn't even have a screenshot
10:56:16 <Alberth> so I have to make a clone, get the patch, apply, compile, run, find the windows that changed from the patch file, and then look
10:56:20 <andythenorth> I’m intending, if I can be arsed
10:56:26 <andythenorth> to make a guide to getting a patch through
10:56:39 <andythenorth> but that somewhat pre-supposes active reviewers :)
10:56:44 <Alberth> then unapply the patch, compile, run the game, and look again to check what exactly changed
10:57:02 <Alberth> that takes me 30 minutes or so
10:57:14 <Alberth> just to see what has actually changed
10:59:11 <andythenorth> all that, and the natural destiny of most patches is still ‘no’ :)
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11:00:06 <andythenorth> where is the line crossed where devs have a social responsibility to the community?
11:00:11 <andythenorth> is that even a thing?
11:00:12 <blocage> Alberth, why do not reply that to the bug: split patch for each chang, submit screenshot before/after
11:00:40 <andythenorth> I know some people making open-source, 3D printable replacement limbs
11:00:46 <andythenorth> we’re making a game about pixel trains :P
11:00:59 <andythenorth> social responsibility differs, eh?
11:01:19 <Alberth> I see my responsibility as providing a stable game
11:02:44 <Alberth> blocage: sure, but I mean, isn't it equally logical that the author himself thinks of this?
11:02:58 <andythenorth> not sure I feel any social responsibility :P
11:03:13 <andythenorth> I do in my actual job, but not here
11:03:25 <blocage> Alberth, not all author as experimented opensource developpers
11:04:21 <Alberth> blocage: but it's the same everywhere, a report, a presentation
11:04:31 <Alberth> but be my guest, add a note :)
11:04:56 <andythenorth> contributing to the project is a mess eh? :)
11:05:16 <andythenorth> where do Iook for guidance? Forums? Wiki? Here? Github? do-not-readme?
11:05:22 <gentz> Ummm... is there any specific dev I should nag/sell my idea too?
11:05:35 <gentz> Or do I just do that to all of you?
11:05:38 <andythenorth> you just have to get lucky on one who is interested at the time
11:05:44 <Alberth> if it wasn't me, I would not have responded
11:05:44 <andythenorth> you’ll mostly get no
11:06:10 <Alberth> I don't think this will fly, ever
11:06:28 <Alberth> you tried this in MP?
11:06:32 <Wolf01> andythenorth: why are you trying to summon me at that hour? XD
11:06:53 <andythenorth> that list is full of ponies, which aren’t needed
11:07:18 <Alberth> I assume it will desync horribly, without even having seen the patchbut aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types
11:07:39 <Wolf01> Eh, roadtypes built by towns might be a requirement
11:07:46 <Alberth> but aside from that, mass-upgrade between rail-types is something that the default set enforces
11:07:57 <andythenorth> what if we ship it in the nightly, and find out about towns being a requirement?
11:08:01 <Alberth> if you don't want that, don't play with the default set
11:09:30 <Alberth> imho a much better strategy here is to create new lines alongside the old ones
11:09:37 <andythenorth> might just close all patch FS > 3 years
11:10:02 <Alberth> that's much more fun than just mass-upgarde and continue doing what you already did
11:10:12 <gentz> I can proudly say it didn't dsync!
11:10:16 <Alberth> andy some may be relevant for being kept open
11:10:32 <Wolf01> If I get frosch to merge my branch to NRT, at least to fix the editor, or we can ship NRT as it is now and fix things with time
11:11:04 <Alberth> gentz: unfortunately, lack of desync doesn't proof safety
11:11:08 <andythenorth> the more I look at the patch queue, the more I hate it
11:11:29 <gentz> Alberth, what more testing does it need?
11:11:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: that’s cheating :)
11:11:47 <andythenorth> I have chosen to play this game, and I won’t quit yet
11:12:19 <Alberth> gentz: I don't think it will be merged
11:12:27 <Alberth> newgrf has solved this problem
11:12:27 <andythenorth> so we have ‘patch’ category
11:12:46 <andythenorth> and we have ‘with patch’ status
11:12:56 <gentz> But my patch doesn't add a new rail-type
11:13:09 <andythenorth> just ‘patch’ category tells nothing about whether it’s bug or feature request
11:13:11 <Alberth> gentz: if you want to skip upgrade, simply start in 2100 or so
11:13:22 <Alberth> enable "all trains forever"
11:13:35 <LordAro> gentz: i warned you :3
11:13:45 <andythenorth> what is this upgrading business?
11:13:54 <andythenorth> seems to cause a lot of heartache
11:13:58 <andythenorth> for those who do
11:14:03 <andythenorth> why is it a thing?
11:14:11 <Alberth> default set forces you to upgrade
11:14:13 <LordAro> andythenorth: i feel like most of these "issues" will go away if/when a move to something with issues/pullrequests built in
11:14:27 <gentz> All it does is remove the same rail-type check from the replace window and call autoreplace on every train in a depot
11:14:32 <andythenorth> that’s the default gameplay Alberth, why change it?
11:14:54 <gentz> How could it possibly dysnc!
11:14:55 <andythenorth> seems like we need UI scripting to me
11:15:07 <andythenorth> shitloads of FS is about order and train management
11:15:26 <andythenorth> nearly all of them quite person-specific requests
11:15:38 <andythenorth> which would be solved with a scriptable UI
11:15:52 <andythenorth> except nobody would bother writing the scripts :)
11:16:24 <LordAro> i'd imagine it's probably fine desync-wise, given it doesn't actually call any commands itself
11:16:30 <Wolf01> Ok, I was about to say something but you already discussed about it, so I keep reading
11:16:40 <LordAro> but bugs are almost by definition not easy to spot
11:17:07 <gentz> Which is why we should push it to trunk and wait for someone to spot something!
11:17:08 <Alberth> gentz: you're still with the idea to fix the default set, that's no-go land, especially as it has been solved already in newgrfs
11:18:03 <Alberth> and I think you play the game in the wrong way by mass-upgrading, but that's just my idea
11:18:49 <gentz> Whats the point of an convert tool if we can't/shouldn't use it?
11:19:00 <Alberth> ie if you enable "never remove old models" your entire problem disappears
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11:19:42 <Alberth> what you mean, you can't use it? it works perfectly for everything but vehicles
11:20:21 <gentz> Can't use it without redoing all your trains.
11:20:47 <gentz> Also the convert tool is only available for trains
11:21:06 <gentz> Its nice for normal rail to electric... but nothing else
11:21:39 <Alberth> if you use railtypes that partly overlap, it works in general
11:22:16 <gentz> But nothing overlaps between electric and monorail (unless you use newgrfs)
11:23:05 <Alberth> why do you insist on a 1-1 copy of an entire new railtype in 1 minute?
11:23:32 <Alberth> the game is about building new track and stations etc
11:24:00 <andythenorth> does recoding the base set trains in newgrf solve this?
11:24:14 <Alberth> why do you don't avoid the entire issue by picking another railtype of trainset or start year
11:24:19 <andythenorth> just make them cross-compatible
11:24:34 <andythenorth> rail <-> maglev <-> monorail
11:24:46 <Alberth> that will work, quite likely
11:24:50 <andythenorth> boring upgrade clicks removed
11:25:01 <gentz> andythenorth, I can get behind that
11:25:27 <Alberth> but why do you start a game in a setup where you KNOW that point will come
11:25:49 <andythenorth> if all base vehicles were recoded as newgrf, with clean nml source
11:25:50 <gentz> Alberth, its a server which goes from 1940-2050
11:25:56 <andythenorth> a lot of problems would disappear
11:26:03 <gentz> You got to upgrade eventually
11:27:01 <Alberth> all train models exist for 255 years
11:27:11 <Wolf01> I solved the problem at the root: I only use rails (normal, electrified, different speed), not a single monorail or maglev
11:28:01 <gentz> It seams I'm not good at "selling"/nagging people here
11:28:31 <Wolf01> There are grfs for what you want, why bother about vanilla stuff?
11:28:54 <gentz> I couldn't convince the server operator to add a new grf
11:28:58 <Alberth> gentz: you're not even open for other solutions, no point in discussing anything
11:29:03 <gentz> so I thought I could convince you guys
11:29:23 <Wolf01> Ahaha "I can't change one server so I'll change all of them"
11:30:02 <Alberth> you haven't made any point other than "I want this, and only this, and this whatI want"
11:30:41 <gentz> Alberth: What would be the requirement for scriptable ui?
11:30:42 <Alberth> if you want to convince anyone, you have to pull their counter arguments down
11:30:56 <Alberth> not MP killing, I think
11:31:31 <Alberth> unless you like an arms race in scripting the game
11:31:43 <Alberth> which is easier to achieve by making AIs
11:32:54 * andythenorth imagines a scriptable UI that can build 10k trains at once :P
11:33:07 <Alberth> no need for copy/paste anymore
11:33:11 <andythenorth> and then delete them at the end of the journey
11:33:13 <gentz> What specific things would it need to do?
11:33:29 <Alberth> you just build the entire layout in 1 second
11:33:50 <Alberth> it's more what it shouldn't be able to do
11:34:20 <Alberth> If I have a script to assist me, normal players have no chance whatsoever
11:34:51 <gentz> One could limit number of actions a script can do per second
11:35:58 <Alberth> 1/second, so 400 train conversions or 10 wagons take 4000 secinds?
11:36:55 <andythenorth> main irritating thing about patches - besides the work involved - is lack of context
11:37:04 <Alberth> or laying a 200 tile track, 30 seconds?
11:37:12 <gentz> 4/second would take 15mins
11:37:14 <andythenorth> I _think_ that’s what irritates frosch about them too maybe
11:37:28 <andythenorth> improving a section of the game goes better with at least some aims and a plan
11:37:33 <andythenorth> not just applying patches
11:38:03 <andythenorth> and lots of patches from people who won’t join irc and actually discuss
11:38:12 <Alberth> most patches are too small scaled in aim
11:38:24 <Alberth> which is understandable, but not very useful
11:38:31 <andythenorth> also, patches have a skewed value system
11:39:12 <andythenorth> some contribute patches, and see the patch as being very high value item
11:39:22 <andythenorth> whilst neglecting value of work to test patch, review patch
11:39:25 <Alberth> gentz: we should add a payment option :p
11:39:34 <andythenorth> and value of work to ensure the game has at least some coherence to the design
11:39:40 <Alberth> pay 50 to finish now :p
11:39:44 <andythenorth> the funny thing is
11:39:44 <Wolf01> andythenorth: what would you expect from the log parser? Other than just parsing the content of the log and put it into a database, and maybe some statistics
11:40:07 <andythenorth> Wolf01: that seems like enough win there
11:40:18 <andythenorth> the funny thing is….I get every pony I want
11:40:28 <andythenorth> but I only have two actual author commits
11:40:51 <Alberth> you don't aim for unattainable ponies
11:41:05 <Alberth> and you're here discussing the pony
11:41:14 <Alberth> and why it's interesting
11:41:27 <andythenorth> I also make mockups, test grfs, nml patches
11:41:33 <andythenorth> I would do the docs, but I’m banned from newgrf wiki
11:41:52 <andythenorth> I also expect a default ‘no’ and I’m not surprised when I get it
11:41:53 <Alberth> but you make a case for it
11:42:30 <Alberth> and you accept that not everything is possible
11:42:50 <Alberth> probably from knowing the general limits and general direction
11:42:55 <andythenorth> I also test patches ASAP when asked, even if I really can’t be arsed a the time
11:43:34 <Alberth> including patches we need tested, and you happen to be the owner of a device :p
11:43:38 <andythenorth> so I’m pretty awesome eh
11:44:07 * andythenorth clones andythenorth
11:44:39 <andythenorth> actually I don’t get every pony
11:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> just make them cross-compatible <-- that exists, it is called "universal railtype"
11:44:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that too :)
11:45:08 <andythenorth> sad ponies: there’s some stuff about the mess of water transport that I can’t get any traction for at all
11:45:14 <andythenorth> maybe I should try and patch it :P
11:45:19 <gentz> Ok, so the scriptable ui will need time limit on actions and a feature to donate to gentz... anything else before I try to do it?
11:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: our builtin squirrel interpreter has a limit to "opcodes"
11:46:55 <andythenorth> there are example cases in FS that could only (imo) be met by scripting
11:46:56 <Alberth> and has been disabled on design
11:47:16 <andythenorth> there is no good UI for that request, it’s basically a bullshit request with no thought in it
11:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which is not perfect, some supposedly "atomic" operations that took too long were forbidden. like "sort"
11:47:30 <andythenorth> it’s a total “I want a pony” from someone who can’t actually ride
11:48:11 <andythenorth> but a script could walk all vehicles, looking for the order, and replacing it
11:48:15 <Alberth> I am quite opposed to automating stuff
11:48:34 <andythenorth> where ideas go to die :)
11:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: enabling AI for human player companies is supposedly a one-line patch
11:49:00 <Alberth> the entire point of a game is to be busy with it
11:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it was deliberately disabled
11:49:12 <Alberth> automating everything just deafeats that
11:49:24 <andythenorth> I don’t really care how people play
11:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, you'll get busy with automating things... it's just a metalevel game :p
11:49:42 <andythenorth> you can use comic sans on a mac, even though Steve Jobs was a typography perfectionist
11:49:47 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: write an AI
11:50:05 <Alberth> start programming in C++
11:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem is "cheating" on servers that try to be competetive (even though that is a goal that can never be achieved)
11:50:33 <Alberth> ie it's not openttd :p
11:50:47 <andythenorth> I give, to be crude, zero fucks about MP other than desyncs
11:51:01 <andythenorth> so much MP bollocks
11:51:26 <Alberth> pretty much all servers are not co-op play
11:51:47 <andythenorth> playing MP to win is stupid in a non-winnable game
11:52:00 <Alberth> you just redefine winning :p
11:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yet, some people do it... are those people stupid?
11:52:44 <andythenorth> no, but specifically designing in that direction is stupid
11:53:06 <andythenorth> last time I played non-GS MP, I spent most of my time building a castle with newgrf
11:53:09 <Alberth> we're not taking many economic patches, you know :p
11:53:10 <andythenorth> and griefing Pikka
11:53:38 <andythenorth> non GS MP is mostly lulz
11:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, if you allow AI on human companies, then you'll attract the "wallhack"-"aimbot" crowd
11:54:01 <andythenorth> is that good or bad?
11:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> say, someone makes a script that places rails whenever someone else places a station
11:54:18 <andythenorth> maybe we should add *more* griefing opportunities
11:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so the player can never use the station
11:54:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: well those people can play on bot servers against each other
11:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or, they buy exclusive rights in every town
11:54:56 <Alberth> if they did, it would be no problem
11:55:07 <gentz> Then they'd just ban ais
11:55:22 <andythenorth> what’s the problem in MP?
11:55:26 <gentz> And I'd get to enjoy my auto upgrades for a week
11:55:28 <Alberth> we did, by not allowing scriptable UI
11:55:32 <andythenorth> why don’t griefers just get kbanned?
11:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that needs efficient moderator/administrator tools
11:56:02 <Alberth> if I build a station in 0.1 seconds, is that grieving?
11:56:26 <Alberth> 20 platforms, and all entry and exit tracks, signalling, everything?
11:56:40 <andythenorth> but you are convincing me towards -1 on scriptable UI
11:56:46 <andythenorth> due to wailing from MP players
11:56:55 <andythenorth> MP is a pox on the game :P
11:57:01 <Alberth> so I can fill the entire map with proper routes in less than a minute
11:57:09 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, i'm not actually an MP player, i just take on a random position in this discussion
11:57:11 <Alberth> nice competitive play then :p
11:57:17 <andythenorth> at which point you have won at writing scripts
11:57:22 <gentz> Current AI has a speed limit, yes?
11:57:25 <andythenorth> that’s some pretty good AI programming imho
11:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: solution might be a server flag "no scripts allowed"
11:57:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: find a server with a fixed map
11:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (hoping that people don't use "hacked" clients which ignore this flag)
11:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> also, something like the landscaping burst limits, for arbitrary commands
11:58:24 <andythenorth> no problem that isn’t solved with another flag
11:58:27 <andythenorth> except too many flags
11:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> flag to reduce the number of flags
11:58:41 <gentz> check for hacked client flag?
11:58:57 <Alberth> how are you going to do that?
11:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: we have that, it's called "version string"
11:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> gentz: but you can hack that, too :p
11:59:13 <andythenorth> can never trust the client
11:59:31 <andythenorth> what stops me just making a client with scripting in it, and joining servers?
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12:00:10 <Alberth> and probably you should avoid being too obvious cheating
12:00:16 <Alberth> if you like that meta-game
12:00:30 <gentz> So are you folks proposing hacking my client just so I don't have to manually upgrade trains?
12:00:36 <andythenorth> sounds like office space Alberth
12:01:20 <gentz> I'll start counting number of days till I'm banned from everything
12:01:24 <Alberth> play at a more sane server is simpler
12:01:32 <andythenorth> plot of Office Space is something like exploiting integer maths to siphon a penny off from financial transactions
12:01:41 <andythenorth> only they do it wrong and get too much money
12:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something like that happened...
12:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it was in the news a few years ago
12:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> they implemented a system that banks use to transfer money back and forth, and cut off after like 4 decimal digits
12:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> was in place for years
12:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> earned a really really large sum of money
12:04:25 <Alberth> we should just have a single world-wide currency :p
12:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "love"? :p
12:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: even bitcoin split into two, because they couldn't quite agree
12:06:02 <Alberth> bitcoin is weird, make money by spending cpu time :p
12:06:05 <andythenorth> can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug"
12:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how is that more weird than making money by digging through dirt?
12:06:29 <andythenorth> bug tracker has many many ways of classifying, and very limited actual usefulness
12:06:45 <_dp_> chat is so fast lately I can't even catch up xD
12:06:59 <Alberth> try #python for a change :p
12:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it's all andys fault
12:07:30 <Alberth> it's hard to follow one discussion there
12:07:47 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> can I recategorise all “Patch” as “Feature Request” or “Bug" <- Yes, you can
12:07:58 <Alberth> andy, some "has patch attached" would be a useful notion, I think
12:08:07 <andythenorth> there is ‘with patch’ status
12:08:11 <andythenorth> which seems useful
12:08:59 <_dp_> upgrading railtypes is such a huge pain that all our servers are set up in a way that it's never ever required
12:09:18 <_dp_> not sure if that patch will help any but would be nice to have an upgrades that actually work
12:09:18 <Alberth> gentz: ^ one sane server :)
12:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: pre-colonial american societies used seashells as currency
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12:10:01 <gentz> Or you guys could stop breaking my heart and make me happy
12:10:04 <Alberth> likely we did something weird too in the past
12:10:12 <andythenorth> Samu’s patches are a classic of ‘but why?'
12:10:16 <gentz> And ignoring all protential bugs
12:10:39 <andythenorth> what if it’s not a feature request, or a bug?
12:10:42 <andythenorth> but refactoring?
12:10:42 <Alberth> andy, sometimes he did shoot correctly
12:10:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: after WWII cigarettes were a common "currency" in destroyed europe
12:10:55 * NGC3982 hand a snail to Eddi|zuHause and expects service.
12:11:21 <Alberth> so smoking cost money, in a very real sense :p
12:11:22 <Wolf01> andythenorth: change "patch" to "codechange"
12:11:34 <andythenorth> I have no admin rights :)
12:12:09 <Wolf01> Leave the ones which aren't fix or feature as patch
12:12:43 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: my grand grandfather lived in the middle of sweden during the war. he (like most of us up here) was not affected directly by the war, more than having to live beside the rails that reach to the top of norrland (northest of sweden). when we cleaned his house after his death we found german cigarettes in big quantities, and we think germans traveling trough sweden traded with him.
12:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: currencies are weird in general. there must be a) enough of it to facilitate trading, b) some difficulty to make more of, c) some difficulty to fake it
12:13:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: Samu seems like a stopped clock :)
12:13:33 <andythenorth> right twice a day, but should it be kept? o_O
12:13:57 <NGC3982> sed -i e/grand g*/great g*/g
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12:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that is probably not valid sed :p
12:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can ommit the g if there's only one instance (per line)
12:16:01 <NGC3982> haha, i just wrote something
12:16:17 <NGC3982> i usually have to man seds, since botching it has concequences up the pooper.
12:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i have no clue what e does
12:16:39 <NGC3982> its an important feature
12:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: yeah, don't use -i until you're sure it's right
12:16:52 <NGC3982> it aligns the galaxies in the local group to better focus the cpu energy
12:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: how does that affect my Akasha devices?
12:19:22 <andythenorth> it’s a binary decision, and we have no BDFL
12:19:24 <NGC3982> its funny. i had to google that. it sounded like some Yamaha bluetooth device
12:19:34 <NGC3982> it was indian cosmology. neat. :-p
12:20:05 <Wolf01> andythenorth: that patch is pure bullshit
12:20:09 <Alberth> andythenorth: I think it's invalid, but not sure
12:20:26 <Alberth> ie there is a time window where the map is being copied
12:20:36 <Alberth> there you can really not do anything
12:20:46 <Wolf01> Since threading autosave starts after copying the map, and copying the map means the game must be freezed
12:20:55 <Alberth> outside that window, imho the sleep cursor should not happen
12:21:05 <Alberth> but I don't know for sure that is really the case
12:21:35 <andythenorth> so it can be approached as a technical question?
12:21:38 <Alberth> although it seems very likely that it is programmed like that
12:21:43 <andythenorth> rather than an aesthetic choice?
12:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the Zzzz cursor appears during that copying step, and disappears once compressing/writing is forked
12:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not really sure
12:23:54 <Alberth> the same here, I never really checked it
12:24:28 <Alberth> there is an aesthetic choice of course, but everybody wants less Zzz cursor, so that's all aligned nicely :)
12:24:40 <_dp_> > <Alberth> it defeats an obstacle in the game
12:24:50 <_dp_> trees are only obstacles for complete newbies :p
12:25:08 <_dp_> most players just spam trees
12:25:19 <_dp_> and some like me even have hotkey for that
12:25:41 <Alberth> imho it's mostly a bug that trees work :p
12:26:00 <Alberth> but yeah, cities are a pain
12:26:12 <_dp_> though I've already enabled magic bulldozer on our servers so I'm totally fine with that never being implemented
12:26:13 <Alberth> not sure why the original game made it like that
12:26:26 <_dp_> it just means it will be harder for other servers to be as cool as ours :p
12:27:43 <Alberth> it pushes towards industrial cargo
12:28:04 <Alberth> which I guess is more interesting from a transport point of view
12:28:20 <_dp_> original was a sp game in an almost pre-internet era :p
12:28:35 <Alberth> why does your server aim for cities?
12:29:06 <_dp_> Alberth, because CB is pretty much the only complex game mode invented so far
12:29:08 <Alberth> even in sp, cities are a mess
12:29:29 <Alberth> it takes ages to get a track through it without cheating
12:30:05 <_dp_> Alberth, that's realism :p
12:30:51 <Alberth> sure, and I am fine with it
12:30:56 <_dp_> besides in openttd tracks aren't good for city growth so it's even more reason for it
12:31:38 <_dp_> but authorities are stupid, you can build an awesome road layout for city and it still hates you
12:31:49 <Alberth> industries are missing some capability or so?
12:32:18 <Alberth> authorities take a "see then believe" assumption :p
12:33:27 <_dp_> Alberth, nah, just stupid :p planting trees and active stations is not much of a help for city
12:34:14 <Alberth> wirthout moving into simcity, I can see designers wanted something simple fitting in the game
12:35:25 <Alberth> I usually deal with authorities by switching to some other area, and return in a decade
12:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the most notable thing about these akasha pillars are the user ratings below :p
12:36:00 <_dp_> Alberth, you can't switch to some other area in CB if that's your town that hates you :p
12:36:32 <Alberth> CB really doesn't fit well at all
12:36:46 <Alberth> yet everybody jumps at it
12:37:04 <_dp_> well, clearly ttd wasn't even designed for goal games
12:37:42 <Alberth> I think up to a few years back, people made their own goals
12:37:59 <Alberth> and that may have happened all the time
12:38:05 <_dp_> btw wasn't original game considered to be an economic sim?
12:38:20 <_dp_> dunno what it's designers smoked but I fail to understand that xD
12:38:52 <Alberth> you see stocks playing a much bigger role in other train transport games
12:38:56 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it has money, and you can make more of it. how is that not an economic sim?
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12:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, for me, stocks were always the worst part of railroad tycoon
12:39:36 <Alberth> chineese students learn it by playing openttd :p
12:40:33 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, and minecraft has minecarts, does that make it a transport simulator?
12:40:38 <Alberth> likely because early american train companies were small and heavily into stocks
12:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i thought the point of minecraft was to build rollercoasters?
12:42:09 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3, the stock market *was* the game
12:42:13 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, if so that's pretty dull rollercoasters, you can't even go upside down :p
12:42:17 <andythenorth> the trains were completely automated
12:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i have heard of people who play GTA V with their kids, following all the traffic laws and stuff :p
12:44:24 <andythenorth> so ottd is a bit lost eh
12:44:37 <Alberth> exploded in all directions? :)
12:45:05 <andythenorth> no-one in charge
12:45:08 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, there are all kinds of crazy people but I don't think gta was even advertised as a law-friendly game
12:45:31 <Eddi|zuHause> err, obviously not. :p
12:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but the fun part about open-world games is: you can ignore the parts that don't interest you and make your own game within the game
12:48:44 <_dp_> sure that's exactly what goal servers do ;)
12:48:52 <_dp_> but you don't call openttd an rts
12:49:06 <_dp_> yet ttd devs called it economy sim for some reason :p
12:52:04 <milek7> i don't think ttd is simulator of anything, just game ;p
12:52:55 <andythenorth> how about blanket policy: reject all patches?
12:53:28 <Alberth> how would you ever get new devs?
12:54:20 <Alberth> not to mention large game features
12:54:31 <andythenorth> not sure, thinking
12:55:00 <andythenorth> the whole patching culture is very transactional
12:55:13 <andythenorth> it doesn’t really seem to work in most projects I see it
12:55:19 <andythenorth> it’s without conversation
12:55:24 <andythenorth> it’s not collaborative
12:55:28 <Alberth> it assumes alignment on intentions
12:55:35 <andythenorth> it’s very over-the-fence
12:55:45 <andythenorth> and it creates a lot of hostility
12:55:54 <andythenorth> needlessly afaict
12:56:07 <Alberth> in tightly coupled dev-groups, it works
12:56:22 <andythenorth> that assumes at least (1) group (2) tight coupling :)
12:56:26 <Alberth> but it assumes everybody does his/her part
12:56:45 <andythenorth> to use terrible metaphors
12:56:51 <Alberth> it does make such assumptions indeed
12:56:55 <andythenorth> if someone came and offered to paint my door blue
12:56:59 <andythenorth> that would be odd
12:57:10 <andythenorth> if they were then offended because I didn’t accept their suggestion
12:57:12 <andythenorth> that would be odder
12:57:33 <andythenorth> and if they turned up with the paint and everything, all paid for, that would be odd too
12:57:40 <andythenorth> it’s a crap metaphor but
12:59:00 <Alberth> quite close, in a sense
12:59:40 <LordAro> andythenorth: like i said, the sooner the move to something with pull requests, the better
13:00:02 <andythenorth> LordAro: I think that improves the mechanic, but still leaves it transactional
13:00:17 <LordAro> what's the issue with transactional?
13:00:26 <andythenorth> only works for limited cases
13:00:28 <Alberth> somewhat it helps, but it's the reverse idea, we tell what we want
13:00:45 <andythenorth> transactional works for easily verified bug fixes
13:00:46 <Alberth> which doesn't work, much like they tell us what they want
13:01:01 <andythenorth> I think we should unsticky / close that post
13:01:12 <andythenorth> also people *have* submitted requested patches…and got deafening silence
13:01:19 <Alberth> that holds for many stickies :p
13:01:20 <andythenorth> so it’s kind of rude
13:01:39 * andythenorth needs a forum mod
13:02:06 * andythenorth goes through the requested
13:05:01 <_dp_> patches work better when there is a good feedback
13:05:09 <_dp_> having a dictator won't hurt either imo
13:05:11 <andythenorth> oh I’m not allowed to edit wiki
13:05:22 <andythenorth> we have nobody who wants to be dictator currently _dp_ :)
13:05:50 <Wolf01> I could be one, but you won't like it
13:06:29 <FLHerne> Perhaps we need an election to pick a dictator?
13:07:09 <_dp_> dictators usually aren't elected :p
13:07:33 <FLHerne> Have everyone explain their vision of the game, and then force people to choose the least worst
13:08:04 <LordAro> it'd need to be someone who can dedicate the time
13:08:11 <andythenorth> who’s the electorate? :P
13:08:36 <andythenorth> I could be BDFL, but *I* wouldn’t like it
13:08:47 <FLHerne> Maybe accept (non-duplicate) votes on simuscape to minimise whining
13:08:52 <andythenorth> I do that all day long for money, with actual paying customers
13:09:05 <andythenorth> there is zero reward doing it in OpenTTD land
13:09:23 <andythenorth> and we lack an obsessive control freak like Linus or Guido or the Dwarf Fortress guy
13:11:03 * andythenorth is bored of being banned from wikiw
13:11:05 <Alberth> likely protected area
13:11:07 <LordAro> "page has been protected"
13:11:34 <andythenorth> needs removed or marked as win
13:15:53 <Alberth> 6078 seems like a solution
13:16:59 <Alberth> oh, 2 sentences ideas don't belong in the FS tracker
13:17:56 <Alberth> "it would be nice to have $random major feature"
13:18:08 <andythenorth> where it’s obvious and known, it’s kind of junk
13:18:09 <milek7> is there any point in having feature requests without patches on FS?
13:18:19 <andythenorth> milek7: sometimes imho
13:18:29 <andythenorth> they work when they collate the discussion
13:18:35 <andythenorth> not so much for obvious crap
13:19:12 <andythenorth> and now it actually has some utility
13:19:21 <Alberth> milek7: for complicated things like re-organizing the windows, you have a lot of discussion to get to a proper proposal
13:19:22 <andythenorth> 5 random RV over-taking wishes is no use
13:19:37 <andythenorth> 1 ticket with at least listed cases to consider…some use
13:19:54 <Alberth> didn't bother making a ticket for it :p
13:20:22 <andythenorth> you’re going to get bored of being a remote-edit bot thb
13:21:35 <Alberth> 6078 is about lifetime
13:22:54 <Alberth> we request an impossible request?
13:23:06 <andythenorth> could be reopened
13:23:11 <andythenorth> ship the text in the binary
13:23:15 <andythenorth> totally plausible
13:23:34 <Wolf01> Mmmh, we should talk with adf88 about the combining/converting railtypes, as NRT needs that for road too
13:23:53 <Alberth> but is it at the wiki?
13:24:01 <Alberth> I'd be surprised, tbh
13:24:07 <andythenorth> it’s in the wiki
13:24:13 <andythenorth> "Readme/licence/changelog viewer for OpenTTD itself. (likely requires OS/packaging specific code)"
13:24:43 <Alberth> ok, so it already points at a solution
13:25:19 <andythenorth> either generate the readme, or add some lang strings from contents of readme
13:25:26 <Alberth> 5018 is thus a duplicate?
13:25:49 <andythenorth> not sure of the history exactly
13:25:59 <Alberth> it has less information then the wiki
13:26:09 <andythenorth> in a better bug tracker, we’d create a public saved query listing the ‘wanted’ features
13:26:19 <andythenorth> thus circumventing wiki
13:26:27 <andythenorth> forums -> wiki -> FS -> graveyard
13:27:10 <andythenorth> I’m not crying about this, but I have definitely been in conversations here along lines of “but nobody even submitted anything in the wanted patches list"
13:27:38 <andythenorth> yet they have, and broadly not looked at
13:27:53 <andythenorth> not a winning strategy :)
13:28:06 <Alberth> 5981 I don't know, the wanted feature is not mine. I am willing to take a look, but spending 30 minutes just to see what it does is just stupid
13:28:31 <andythenorth> I have no interest in it
13:28:43 <andythenorth> I am dubious about touching most of the UI
13:28:54 <andythenorth> it’s well established, and mostly not broken
13:28:57 <Alberth> I don't think anyone is closely watching the junk coming in in the FS
13:29:10 <andythenorth> I dislike watching amateur UI designers at work :(
13:29:22 <andythenorth> and it’s part of my day, and it’s hard, so eh
13:29:49 * andythenorth wonders how it is to be a proper programmer and watch andythenorth write code :P
13:30:12 <Alberth> I think everybody writes in his own way
13:30:24 <Alberth> the end-result is what counts
13:30:33 <Alberth> not the program itself
13:31:24 <andythenorth> different for UIs
13:31:40 <andythenorth> anyway no screenshot
13:31:50 <andythenorth> nobody will touch it
13:31:58 <Alberth> I would do it differently or quicker, but until you have found your current approach failing, I can't explain it
13:32:49 <andythenorth> that wiki page lacks a ‘Windows’ section
13:34:44 <Alberth> sorry, but I have other things to do, and no rights to give you access
13:34:50 <andythenorth> nah it’s fine :)
13:35:14 * andythenorth should feed children lunch and stuff and stop doing this :P
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13:35:35 <Alberth> users make the weirdest lists :P
13:35:50 <andythenorth> it’s basically not true
13:37:31 <andythenorth> hmm, is the git repo still a sync to an svn master?
13:37:41 <Cadadadry> looking for somebody to tell me some clues about ottd, pls
13:38:48 <Cadadadry> who knows the options included into the station window ?
13:39:23 <Alberth> you actually want a list?
13:39:43 <Alberth> I don't think anyone knows that from their head
13:40:07 <Alberth> perhaps tell what problem you're trying to solve?
13:40:57 <Alberth> andy, faq development is also protected?
13:41:17 <andythenorth> I am considering editing it, but I don’t want to add alternative facts
13:41:24 <andythenorth> because alternative facts are lies
13:41:39 <Alberth> some presidents think otherwise :p
13:41:41 <Cadadadry> well, compared to original TTD, there are new settings into station window (like the little "+" switching to "-" and some new buttons as well
13:41:54 <andythenorth> did we switch to git as master yet?
13:42:05 <Cadadadry> wondering what they are made for ?
13:42:22 <andythenorth> I am dubious about all this svn advice in that page
13:42:41 <andythenorth> given that previous ruling method was hg for ~5 years or so
13:42:47 <andythenorth> and now there’s a debate about git
13:42:51 <Alberth> oh, in yellow at the right, you mean Cadadadry ?
13:44:10 <Alberth> how nice, nobody added cdist to the wiki yet :p
13:45:02 <andythenorth> I have half a page of notes about how cargo-dist actually works
13:45:03 <Alberth> do you have a station where trains load cargo for more than one station?
13:45:07 <Cadadadry> is there some kind of detailed handbook about new features ? couldnt find it on wiki
13:45:09 <andythenorth> the current page is lies iirc
13:46:01 <Alberth> open the station window there and click on the +
13:46:10 <Alberth> you get 2 lines under it
13:46:33 <Alberth> each line lists what part of the cargo at the top-line goes to where
13:46:34 <Cadadadry> it proposes me to "reserve" some goods, but how does that work ?
13:47:14 <Alberth> it's automatic (well, if you enable cargo-dist, that is)
13:47:30 <Alberth> it means the train currently in the station will get that
13:47:40 <Alberth> ie "resevred for that train"
13:48:28 <Alberth> if you stop the trains from going into the stations, you get an amount of cargo build up, distributed to all destinations that you have there
13:48:49 <Alberth> cargo-dist handles the distribution
13:49:16 <Cadadadry> so, the "+" is only an option for more info ? it's no setting ?
13:49:40 <andythenorth> cargodist suffers from two misconceptions generally
13:49:41 <Alberth> cargo-dist settings are in the settings
13:50:12 <Cadadadry> hmm got to tell you my game is in french, so talking about general settings will be hard :D
13:50:37 <Cadadadry> thx for your help anyway ;)
13:51:19 <Cadadadry> btw I've got a Mumble server if you guys want to talk about the game on the mike
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13:53:02 <Cadadadry> I wish I could share a game with another player, but not a competitive one, just a coop...
13:53:18 <Cadadadry> Anybody interested ?
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13:56:07 <andythenorth> Cadadadry: it’s quite rare that anybody joins an MP game from asking here :)
14:00:20 <Cadadadry> looks like I'll have to reinstall TS3...
14:09:50 <andythenorth> issue is ancient
14:12:17 <adf88> while there might be some issue in this area, it wasn't pointed out properly, the argumentation is false
14:12:44 <andythenorth> I should close, or you will? I’m happy to
14:15:06 <adf88> you're right that "Issue has aged, there is no sign that it's still relevant to anyone. "
14:27:19 <andythenorth> we don’t need this kind of change
14:28:50 <frosch123> it's a code simplification wihtout change
14:28:55 <frosch123> if it is correct, it is good
14:30:21 <frosch123> i would disagree, reopen :)
14:30:30 <frosch123> we need more people who can refactor code
14:31:10 <frosch123> i am sure this task got onto my todo list in 2014 and then got burried :)
14:31:10 <Alberth> juanjo is often right
14:32:36 <Cadadadry> A big thank you to you all coders to have brought back TTD from the grave, and fixed a lot of bugs :)
14:33:23 <Cadadadry> I'm still exploring new content, but got to admit I feel lost :/
14:34:28 <frosch123> no surprise, new user experience is hard :)
14:34:44 <Cadadadry> Does anyone remember "A-train" ?
14:35:03 <frosch123> i heard about it, but never played it
14:35:05 <Alkel_U3> sure, I used to play that
14:35:18 <andythenorth> testing patches is slow eh :)
14:35:24 <Cadadadry> you must be over 50 now ^^
14:35:43 <frosch123> you can play games at age 10
14:35:59 <Alkel_U3> actually not even close, I've just always been into older games :-)
14:36:38 <Alkel_U3> I had to reboot my win98 in tru DOS mode to run it, it wouldn't otherwise
14:38:29 <andythenorth> distant-join is hard to explain to 7 year olds
14:44:34 <Cadadadry> @andythenorth If find that idea is great (joining distant stations through a button)
14:47:16 <andythenorth> I would do it simpler
14:47:41 <andythenorth> I would invert the current behaviour, and simply show the list of nearby stations always on build
14:47:45 <andythenorth> unless ctrl is used
14:47:50 <andythenorth> works better on touch
14:48:19 <andythenorth> and makes the mechanic more obvious, at the cost of extra clicks
14:49:03 <Cadadadry> yes, that would help managing stations into big cities
14:50:21 <Cadadadry> I'm now on #openttdcoop TS server, but 0 user online :/
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14:57:35 <frosch123> "3390 files, 410k lines of code" <- factorio people seem to love short files
14:59:22 <andythenorth> ach, which patch am I even testing now ;P
14:59:51 <frosch123> LordAro: what's your opinion on boost? i have the impression that many people turn their backs on it
15:01:38 <andythenorth> does openttd have a hotkey editor?
15:02:00 <frosch123> no, not sure whether i remember a partial patch for it
15:02:55 <andythenorth> FS someone reporting a crash with it
15:03:15 * andythenorth must be misreading
15:03:38 <Cadadadry> going back to game, cya all and thx for helping ;)
15:04:50 <andythenorth> I set SPACE as a hotkey, OpenTTD crashes on exit
15:05:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is hotkeys.cfg
15:05:48 <frosch123> you can edit the hotkeys outside of ottd
15:07:54 <andythenorth> whatever else the patch does, it cause OpenTTD to crash on exit reliably
15:20:18 <andythenorth> so many useful ideas
15:20:49 <andythenorth> they are probably 30:1 on useful implementations
15:22:08 <andythenorth> there are ~90 patches on FS
15:22:17 <andythenorth> probably 10 are valid
15:23:49 <Wolf01> Today is a BAD day, I don't feel well (because of the weather change), a friend's HDD reached 161°C and died :|
15:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> how did he manage that?
15:25:03 <Wolf01> Could be SMART failure to report a wrong temp
15:25:25 <Alkel_U3> is that still _that_ friend?
15:25:39 <Wolf01> I melted one HDD too, tbh
15:26:04 <Wolf01> The one fill with holiday and family photos
15:26:50 <Alkel_U3> "Data you don't have at least at two places are data you don't care about." --old wisdom
15:27:03 <Alkel_U3> I learned it the hard way, too :(
15:27:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i invested into 3 HDDs to make a RAID5
15:27:42 <Wolf01> Still a problem if the entire machine gets destroyed
15:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, but then i probably have bigger problems
15:28:38 <Wolf01> I have data in pc which backups in nas, which backups again the most important data to another separate HDD
15:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you should have backups in another location, in that case
15:29:36 <Wolf01> Yup, mine are in 2 different and distant rooms of the house
15:29:55 <Wolf01> Problem is when... I get flooded :E
15:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> at work we have a raid10 across different houses
15:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> or raid15, not sure
15:31:19 <Wolf01> I read "we have a radio across different houses"
15:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you are too 1337 for this world
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15:44:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: ever tried writing an OpenTTD roadmap? o_O
15:44:48 * andythenorth is obliged to write annual product roadmaps :|
15:46:41 <Wolf01> We had roadmaps up to 1.3 iirc, I don't know if they were respected btw
15:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they kinda devolved into wishlists
15:50:37 <frosch123> easy: 1. make c++11 capable farm, 2a. port to harfbuzz, 2b. port to sdl2, 2c. replace need for custom containers with c++11 emplace stuff, 3b. add os cursor support, 4b add font gui, 3c replace global pools with something that allows independent instances of pools, 4c make newgrf stuff run independent instances, 5c1 make newgrf preview, 5c2 run independen newgrf callbacks in paralle, 2d split drawing loop into parts accessing game data and
15:50:38 <frosch123> stuff accessing sprites with a pipeline inbetween, 3d make drawing multi-threaded
15:51:00 <frosch123> how much of that is on *any* other roadmap? :p
15:51:07 <andythenorth> not one I’ve seen
15:51:30 <frosch123> see, that's the problem, the trick is to align intentions
15:51:53 <LordAro> frosch123: boost is... tricky. lots of very nice things in it, but it's a very big dependency
15:51:59 <frosch123> at least we seem to have 3 people interested in c++11 stuff, but that still doesn't tell whether they will disagree in details :)
15:52:03 <andythenorth> I am quite prepared to keep reading FS, testing patches, and saying no to people
15:52:12 <LordAro> i'm of the opinion that you need to go "all in" with it or not at all
15:52:17 <andythenorth> but the actual goals vary depending who is in this channel at the time :P
15:52:28 <andythenorth> and there’s no BDFL or active project leader
15:52:33 <LordAro> and i think it'd be quite tricky to go "all in" with it in ottd's current state
15:52:53 <frosch123> LordAro: i was not asking in ottd context
15:53:08 <LordAro> frosch123: do let me know if there's anything i can help with wrt compile farm/c++11/libraries tho
15:53:09 <frosch123> i just read fff, and found reaccuring themes from other sourcers
15:53:19 <andythenorth> but “improve the user interface” leaves a gap as wide as a barn door for patchers
15:53:29 <LordAro> frosch123: yeah, that fff echoed my opinion of it quite we
15:55:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: sometimes i think i am too old. about everything has been suggested and discussed before, i have settled my opinion on most, and i am tired of repeating the arguments :)
15:57:01 <frosch123> LordAro: btw. compile farm for linux and osx seems to be about done, i have no information on the status for win
15:57:48 <andythenorth> I was reading a python module ticket edit war this week
15:58:03 <andythenorth> prevailing rule is, module maintainer’s word is law, unless Guido over-rides them
15:58:13 <andythenorth> or they piss off enough people and rage quit
15:59:19 <Wolf01> Roadmap for 1.8: improve the game
15:59:47 <Wolf01> ...fix bugs, add new bugs, feature new features
15:59:50 <andythenorth> there’s nobody who can be BDFL
16:00:04 <andythenorth> maybe we split up areas of concern, and find somebody whose word is law for each
16:00:22 <andythenorth> e.g. I am massively -1 to adding any further complexity to UI
16:00:38 <andythenorth> and mostly -1 to changing anything that is well established, without very good reason
16:00:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, ottd has become very feature driven, in my imagination it was more refactoring driven in the past; i prefer the latter
16:01:04 <andythenorth> that is interesting
16:01:27 <frosch123> but well, may also be false memories :)
16:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> c++ move, gui rewrite, "new map array", ...
16:02:22 <frosch123> competing pool rewrites :)
16:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of refactoring going on, with the intention to make more features
16:02:32 <andythenorth> for me, the best commits are the very small UI tweaks
16:02:49 <andythenorth> the most interesting problems are the extension of the content APIs
16:02:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there is lots of refactoring to be found in cirdans branch
16:03:02 <andythenorth> refactoring I can’t play, I’m not a good enough programmer :P
16:05:06 <peter1138> step 1) play minecraft
16:05:50 <Wolf01> andythenorth: refactoring is like with lego, you do and undo trying to keep the functions working until you are satisfied
16:07:15 <andythenorth> I refactor newgrf continuously
16:07:20 <andythenorth> but not so much C++ :P
16:10:51 <andythenorth> how much of that is nice-to-have ponies?
16:14:34 <LordAro> frosch123: about done?
16:19:40 <andythenorth> so this farm is reprocible, e.g. I could built it locally?
16:20:01 <frosch123> the win part won't :)
16:20:28 * andythenorth thinking about patch packs etc
16:20:47 <frosch123> frosch123: i wondered whether we should jgrpp on frontpage
16:20:56 <frosch123> download A for stability, download B for features
16:21:18 <andythenorth> I think officially linked patchpacks is a thing
16:21:25 <frosch123> it all depends on how easy LordAro's new site is to use
16:21:26 <andythenorth> I think the description…could use work :P
16:21:37 <frosch123> initially i hoped gitlab would solve it :)
16:21:41 <andythenorth> I dispute that version A lacks features
16:21:57 <andythenorth> download B for dubious features :P
16:22:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, i am all fine with trunk doing refactoring, and someone else adding all the features
16:23:12 <andythenorth> I would be happier with trunk refactoring AND adding more content APIs
16:24:17 <frosch123> i am fine with newgrf, but we have noone interested in ai/gs
16:25:05 <frosch123> about my only input in ai/gs was kicking people when they named stuff differently in different places
16:26:28 <andythenorth> one day it just...appeared
16:26:37 <frosch123> tb did the base of both noai and nogo
16:26:45 <frosch123> yexo did the details of noai
16:27:08 <andythenorth> Zuu is awol? o_O
16:27:11 <frosch123> and zuu/albert/rb did the details of nogo
16:28:07 <andythenorth> so you can do core and newgrf
16:28:22 <andythenorth> I’ll just say ‘no’ to everything about UI, so I don’t even need commit rights to be maintainer
16:28:33 <andythenorth> alberth can review your stuff
16:28:42 <andythenorth> adf8* has his own thing going
16:28:57 <andythenorth> and Eddi|zuHause can be the official maintainer of the platonic ideal spec :)
16:29:10 <andythenorth> all neat and tidy, solved
16:29:22 <frosch123> well, i miss smatz :)
16:29:45 <andythenorth> I miss dalestan :P
16:29:50 <andythenorth> oh I missed peter1138
16:30:05 <andythenorth> peter1138 can maintain a list of random patches that he declares not good enough :)
16:30:32 <andythenorth> whilst also asking us why we make everything so complicated
16:30:39 <andythenorth> I’m 99% certain I employ a clone of peter1138
16:33:00 <peter1138> no use employing me
16:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no use employing me either, but i found someone who does :p
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17:21:17 <FrenkyPohodar> Hello. Would anyone be able to help with the openttd server? On win7 I released it as a didikate server, the ports are redirected and open. the rver seems to be running but I'm not able to connect to it, it seems like it's on-line it's server Cz / SK_Budujeme_mesta / City_Buildings, 5000pop (1921-2050) I got something wrong, but what? Thank you in advance for your advice and help.
17:22:14 <frosch123> so the problem is with the client
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17:22:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
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18:50:25 <Wolf01> I can't understand for how much time I slept, is it friday yet?
18:52:46 <andythenorth> so is ‘rage’ the natural destiny of all people who handle feature requests? o_O
18:56:07 <Wolf01> You are taking the tasks too much seriously
18:57:03 <andythenorth> would you go for more lulz?
19:03:28 <andythenorth> things not a goal #238: pissing around with the vehicle payments
19:05:07 <Alberth> imho he has somewhat of a point, trouble is that changing the payment alone is likely to cause havoc in other areas
19:06:18 <Alberth> ideally you'd fix it by changing the vehicle speed, I think
19:06:42 <_dp_> that patch does something weird, that shouldn't be required to just change profit formula
19:06:47 <peter1138> yeah but that causes havoc in other areas
19:06:49 <Alberth> that might break a lot of newgrfs?
19:07:14 <peter1138> the 28/32 pixel length difference is related
19:07:15 <Alberth> like "all newgrf"s :p
19:07:33 <peter1138> if you fix the speed issue, 28 becomes the correct length after all
19:07:34 <Alberth> yeah, you'd want that fixed too then
19:07:46 <peter1138> so every set that uses 32 would be messed up
19:07:51 <peter1138> dbsetxl would be fine
19:07:53 <peter1138> and that's about it :p
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19:09:25 <frosch123> peter1138: trains are 29 :p
19:09:31 <_dp_> Alberth, why change vehicle speeds? that won't help with manhattan distance payment
19:09:38 <peter1138> i thought it might be one of the two
19:09:42 * andythenorth is looking for something to close, to get to 350 FS
19:09:49 <andythenorth> also…trying to learn what the goals are :P
19:10:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think the goal was to have fun
19:10:38 <_dp_> it may make sense to change diagonal lenght to match euclidean but it still does nothing wrt payment "fairness"
19:12:03 <peter1138> i don't understand the problem
19:12:10 <peter1138> "earning capacity increased" for trains?
19:12:22 <peter1138> isn't it increased for trains, planes and ships?
19:12:31 <peter1138> RVs lose out i guess
19:12:43 <peter1138> and then surely "that's just how it is"
19:12:46 <_dp_> you either use road metric aka manhattan which breaks trains or use train/plane distance which is not fair for rvs
19:13:18 <andythenorth> peter1138: it is how it is
19:13:58 * andythenorth learning about newgrf airports
19:14:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think there was a majority for user-built airports
19:14:55 <andythenorth> weren’t there multiple failed patches, with extra drama?
19:15:00 <andythenorth> I think I missed it
19:15:18 <andythenorth> apparently We Are All Very Bad People, it’s somewhere on the internet
19:15:42 * peter1138 ponders razing this village
19:16:05 <andythenorth> there’s all this airport bollocks in the game
19:16:40 <andythenorth> how the hell does that ever work?
19:16:46 <andythenorth> newgrf state machines?
19:17:01 <frosch123> no, either rv logic or pbs logic
19:17:03 <peter1138> what's wrong with more than one airport in a town?
19:17:05 <frosch123> well, or ship logic :p
19:17:39 <andythenorth> peter1138: some kind of bullshit in MP with griefing
19:17:53 <andythenorth> FS is making me wish MP would just go away
19:18:00 <andythenorth> Other People are A Problem
19:18:16 <andythenorth> or he’s chosen bad AIs
19:18:23 <andythenorth> that spam towns with airports
19:18:31 <andythenorth> like err…choose a different AI?
19:18:37 <andythenorth> "Oh noes there must be a setting"
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19:22:05 <peter1138> oops just spent 34 xp levels enchanting something with no effect :(
19:22:56 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
19:23:10 <andythenorth> I’m not really pissed off at Milsa :P
19:23:17 <andythenorth> I’m pissed off with all the airport bollocks :)
19:23:29 <andythenorth> limits, noise levels, faceted shit
19:23:55 <andythenorth> town var: number of airports
19:24:12 <andythenorth> airport or town cb: player tries to construct airport
19:24:19 <andythenorth> airport var: owner company
19:24:25 <andythenorth> return: allow, disallow
19:24:34 <andythenorth> delete: limits per town, noise limit
19:25:03 <_dp_> andythenorth, and noone will ever use that coz newgrf
19:25:20 <andythenorth> but all the feature requests can be closed
19:25:38 <_dp_> andythenorth, won't stop people from opening new ones :p
19:25:55 <andythenorth> the game isn’t to stop feature requests
19:26:02 <andythenorth> the game is to close them having already won
19:26:58 <_dp_> did I mention including newgrfs in savegame already?
19:27:08 <andythenorth> “anticipating user need”, can do consulting on that at €1000/day
19:27:23 <andythenorth> newgrfs can’t be included in savegame for [reasons]
19:27:31 <andythenorth> copyright bollocks probably
19:27:45 <andythenorth> yeah, no redistribution of some people’s grfs
19:28:04 <frosch123> you can certainly streamline the load process
19:28:23 <andythenorth> I never submit crash reports because I always have non-bananas grfs :P
19:28:28 <frosch123> like "you can't load this!" -> "would you like to download missing stuff?"
19:28:38 <_dp_> well, I own my negrfs so I'd like my servers to include them...
19:29:13 <frosch123> _dp_: include 256mb of 32bpp sprites in the samegame? :p
19:29:14 <_dp_> Problem with negrfs currents is that it's never worth to use them just for configuration
19:29:40 <_dp_> frosch123, I don't have sprites in newgrfs, just some configuration bullshit :p
19:29:56 <andythenorth> newgrf planes shouldn’t use range, it’s a bug
19:31:40 <_dp_> btw, we currently do some server-side limiting on airports
19:31:53 <_dp_> it's max airports per company though, not per town
19:32:03 <frosch123> is there a difference between limiting airports and limitnig aircraft?
19:32:36 <andythenorth> on the face of it…yes...?
19:32:48 <frosch123> wrt. restricting gameplay
19:33:02 <_dp_> we have 5 airport limit and 100 aircrafts
19:33:25 <frosch123> hmm, i guess it depends on the map scaling
19:33:29 <andythenorth> can I actually close a FS saying aircraft range is a bug?
19:33:40 <ST2> maybe it's ugly.. but works xD
19:33:41 <frosch123> on a 1Mx1M map, you can have 10k planes with just 2 airports
19:34:14 <andythenorth> not all newgrf additions have been wise
19:34:50 <andythenorth> not added yet :P
19:35:13 * andythenorth kills the kittens and closes the FS
19:35:55 <_dp_> limiting number of airports limits amount of resources that can be acquired with them (unlike limiting planes)
19:36:43 <frosch123> i would expect the reverse
19:36:53 <_dp_> in particular valuables, with 5 airports you can only connect 5 banks, not every bank on the map and cover town val requirements for eternity
19:37:11 <andythenorth> why not just disable planes?
19:37:24 <frosch123> ah, it's about "deliver some" goals
19:37:47 <frosch123> true, you can build a single plane which circles through 50 airports
19:37:49 <andythenorth> there’s GS for the goals?
19:38:17 <frosch123> i remember andy delivering farm supplies by plane
19:38:18 <andythenorth> ach, GS can’t have callbacks andythenorth is an idiot again :(
19:38:23 <frosch123> so i welcome the airport limit :)
19:38:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: tractors by plane
19:39:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, tile-based airports would solve everything
19:39:39 <frosch123> you can make the taxiway and runway shared like roads
19:39:49 <frosch123> and have each company have their terminal
19:39:51 <andythenorth> with player owned terminals?
19:39:53 <_dp_> I prefer to balance planes instead of disabling them, more variety is good, adds more options for the game tactics
19:40:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: that’s crazy talk :P
19:40:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: only the terminal has a catchment area
19:40:25 <andythenorth> is there actually a viable implementation? o_O
19:40:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: why, i had a patch against r6907
19:40:35 <andythenorth> only 15k revisions old
19:40:52 <frosch123> there have been at least 2 similar attemps on the forums
19:41:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: also, all the plane limit stuff is to prevent them being overpowered; but that completely ruins the fun in using them
19:42:04 <_dp_> having a terminal wouldn't hurt train/rv stations either to solve all that joining-catchement nonsense
19:42:16 <andythenorth> (1) town limit of airport by count
19:42:21 <andythenorth> (2) town limit by noise
19:42:34 <andythenorth> (3) irritating date restrictions on airport construction
19:42:41 <andythenorth> (5) plane speed factor
19:42:51 <andythenorth> and still planes aren’t fixed?
19:42:58 <andythenorth> what did we learn?
19:43:22 <_dp_> andythenorth, not enough settings :p
19:44:31 <_dp_> from economy viewpoint only plane speed matters and even 1/4 is not enough to nerf planes
19:45:05 <peter1138> "even 1/4" 1/4 is the standard
19:45:15 <andythenorth> I don’t understand this balancing bollocks?
19:45:21 <andythenorth> is balancing a goal?
19:45:33 <peter1138> apparently some people think the game is not about making a pretty railway layout :p
19:45:37 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's a goal for goal servers :p
19:45:42 <andythenorth> if all transport types must balance, wtf do we bother having all these transport types?
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27911 /trunk/src/lang (hebrew.txt korean.txt) (2017-09-02 19:45:39 +0200 )
19:45:47 <andythenorth> it’s fricking stupid
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> korean: 1 change by telk5093
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> hebrew: 4 changes by dnd_man
19:46:28 <andythenorth> frosch123: can I make it official? Balancing is not a goal?
19:46:48 <frosch123> it's a rewording of "do not change the game mechanics", right?
19:47:06 <andythenorth> town growth, ratings, etc?
19:47:15 <_dp_> just add "mp is not a goal" :p
19:47:16 <andythenorth> original industry production, economy
19:47:49 <andythenorth> how does minecraft do goal servers?
19:48:12 <_dp_> andythenorth, command blocks
19:48:39 <_dp_> and adventure mode or whatever is it called
19:48:57 <andythenorth> can’t find any goal servers for minecraft so far
19:49:35 <_dp_> andythenorth, idk about "goal" goal, put there are plenty of competitive ones
19:51:35 <_dp_> oh, there is also builtin scoreboard in minecraft
19:52:20 <_dp_> andythenorth, isn't NRT changing game mechanics btw? ;)
19:52:54 <andythenorth> depends if we include the new icon for light rail :P
19:53:03 <andythenorth> nothing changes though
19:53:29 <_dp_> andythenorth, how about roads that towns can't grow on?
19:53:50 <andythenorth> how about them? :)
19:53:55 <andythenorth> sounds like an idea
19:54:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: do I need to read all 14 pages? o_O
19:54:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, well, in current game mechanics town can grow on any road :p
19:54:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: actually p14 seems to be enough
19:54:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe you can extract what people think about balancing
19:54:53 <andythenorth> TL;DR people are wrong?
19:54:57 <frosch123> by comparing what was suggested 10 years ago with what is suggested today
19:55:36 <andythenorth> unfortunately, like a politician, I already have my conclusion :(
19:55:40 <andythenorth> so I’ll just cherry pick evidence
19:56:10 <andythenorth> balancing is nonsense, newgrf can solve most problems, end of message
19:56:28 <frosch123> too bad the pdf is not accessible
19:56:41 <andythenorth> I probably shouldn’t post all my notes here as I go eh :P
19:56:47 <_dp_> newgrfs are such a huge problem by themselves they hardly can solve anything :p
19:57:18 <andythenorth> I don’t think you can sustain that argument _dp_ :)
19:58:34 <_dp_> how many people was it who loaded any grf compared to game downloads? :p
20:00:00 <andythenorth> propose an alternative to modifying the game with content?
20:00:20 <andythenorth> every single foamer has to submit a patch to get their special train in the game?
20:00:28 <andythenorth> and we have a setting for every single one?
20:01:46 <frosch123> can we organise a shooting between _dp_, andy, pikka and dalestan?
20:03:22 <frosch123> i do not know dalestan's opinion on aircraft range
20:03:41 <frosch123> dalestan coded planeset, so he probably would have one
20:03:47 <andythenorth> “don’t add newgrf features that break orders”?
20:03:52 <andythenorth> like the refit cb also
20:04:15 <frosch123> probably "newgrf parameter: let the user pick their destiny"
20:05:17 <andythenorth> reading this thread is painful :(
20:05:22 <andythenorth> it’s like a wall of wrong :(
20:06:47 <andythenorth> “Well, I'd say the easiest solution to that problem is to…” is always followed by
20:07:00 <andythenorth> “…add a boatload more complexity to post-hoc make my crap pet idea work"
20:07:15 <andythenorth> The easiest solution would be to Drop The Crap Idea
20:07:28 <andythenorth> where’s V453000 when he’s needed?
20:07:31 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
20:10:43 <frosch123> how does subways make it into the balance topic?
20:11:00 <andythenorth> the whole thing is endless ponies
20:11:20 <frosch123> that's why i linked it :p
20:11:38 <andythenorth> then take a picture of it
20:11:49 <andythenorth> and post the picture at the top of every single feature request page
20:12:16 <_dp_> at this point I feel and hope that modding machinky will be a lot more easier than bothering with openttd
20:13:15 <frosch123> depends how many bugs it copies from ottd
20:13:23 <frosch123> factorio managed to copy quite a number
20:14:22 <Alberth> modding is easy, getting agreement between all players is the puzzle :p
20:15:44 <andythenorth> content-based modding eliminates the need for agreement
20:19:26 <frosch123> the follow-up post takes it serious
20:23:45 <frosch123> too many graphic issues
20:23:52 <frosch123> it's like crossing bridges
20:24:01 <frosch123> implementing is easy, but it will glitch like hell
20:24:26 <andythenorth> there’s a real one being planned in Norway, but eh
20:29:50 <andythenorth> but I think it’s much more complex than it sounds
20:30:52 <andythenorth> also it could be done in newgrf, but only if magic bulldozer is enabled
20:35:16 <andythenorth> single stud pistons
20:37:37 <andythenorth> FFS, the 7 year old’s favourite thing to do in the game is grow cities :(
20:37:41 <andythenorth> it’s like a plague
20:38:32 <frosch123> the most exciting thing for me at that age was the concorde
20:39:35 <_dp_> how is 2445 different from just funding?
20:40:10 <frosch123> and the biggest disappointment was that the airports were the bottleneck
20:40:55 <frosch123> _dp_: 2445 limits it to an area, like 128x128, which is significant when playing on 1Mx1M map
20:41:33 <andythenorth> it’s a great idea
20:41:40 <andythenorth> I’m going to add it to FIRS
20:43:08 <_dp_> frosch123, ah, yeah, somewhat interesting
20:43:20 <_dp_> that fail chance is no go though for competitive servers
20:44:20 <_dp_> or should I say for competitive play
20:44:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: build a survey camp industry (very cheap)
20:44:51 <_dp_> since people compete on vanilla servers all the time
20:44:56 <andythenorth> then force primaries to locate near that if there is one on the map
20:45:12 <andythenorth> survey camp counts industries, and closes once a new primary has been built
20:45:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: make the camp close after 6 months
20:45:21 <andythenorth> (a) it’s a terrible BAD FEATURE
20:45:33 <andythenorth> (b) I can’t count all the industries, unless maybe I bitstuff enough
20:45:41 <andythenorth> (c) it’s annoying having to wait for closure :P
20:45:51 <frosch123> (d) users won't understand it
20:45:56 <andythenorth> (e) waste of time
20:47:25 <andythenorth> strikes me that doing it in game would work like:
20:47:33 <andythenorth> 1. select prospect
20:47:37 <andythenorth> 2. click on a tile
20:47:49 <andythenorth> 3. openttd tries to build within n tiles of that x,y
20:48:28 <frosch123> or a) select area b) spawn in area with probability depending on area size
20:49:39 <frosch123> though that's likely hard to explain
20:49:56 <andythenorth> seems like TMFTLB
20:50:04 <andythenorth> but it is annoying
20:50:19 <andythenorth> I like prospecting, but not so much on a large map
20:50:27 <andythenorth> it works great on 256x256 or smaller
20:50:33 <frosch123> well, i only used prospecing after connecting everything
20:50:38 <frosch123> so it's behaviour is quite fine
20:50:47 <frosch123> it just fails on stupid sized maps, but they fail anyway
20:51:33 <frosch123> it's just a mechanism to make the game continue
20:51:43 <frosch123> not to play industry giant
20:52:00 <andythenorth> it _could_ be at least trialled in newgrf if wanted
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21:02:12 <y2000rtc> Hi there, it's me Zdenek again. I don't want to waste your time. I would like to ask you for help. I play TTD (OpenTTD) since when I was child and right now I want to edit two grf files. 1) edit grf of rail for to have rail with different speed but with the same graphics. Old one. There is many graphics of rails due to speed. I want to use different speed but with the same design.
21:02:31 <y2000rtc> What do you say for that. Someone who will find any time for me?
21:05:26 <Alkel_U3> if there is no source available, you'll likely need to run that grf through grfcodec to get NFO and learn to read and edit that.
21:06:00 <Alkel_U3> better yet, try contacting the author of that grf
21:06:50 <Alberth> there are two approaches, learn NML, and make a grf yourself, or decompile a grf to NFO, change the graphics, and re-assemble (and be sure to change the grfid as well toa avoid clashes)
21:07:04 <y2000rtc> I already tried to contact author. Without success. :(((
21:07:30 <y2000rtc> Ok Alkel, where and how to make steps which you mentioned please?
21:07:34 <Alberth> former is by far the cleanest
21:07:43 <Alkel_U3> maybe it would be easier to just learn NML and code it from scratch, NFO is very not human-friendly :-) (basically hex editing)
21:08:14 <andythenorth> Termite uses baseset graphics for RAIL
21:08:27 <andythenorth> fork Termite, add more railtypes, but with speed limits
21:08:43 <andythenorth> has to be built with Make though
21:09:15 <y2000rtc> Gentlemen, I'm really novice. So, I have to download some tool for decompiling of GRF file. After that I have to edit something and last step is to compile again.
21:09:23 <andythenorth> that is one route
21:09:30 <andythenorth> or find a grf that has src, and clone it
21:09:36 <y2000rtc> fork Termite is what?
21:09:37 <andythenorth> edit the src, compile it
21:09:50 <andythenorth> ‘fork’ just means ‘clone it and make your own version'
21:10:05 <andythenorth> Termite uses nml, which is easier than nfo
21:10:08 <Wolf01> We really need to do a web interface to build (simple) grfs...
21:10:16 <andythenorth> I posted in forums about it
21:10:25 <andythenorth> I think it’s a Terrible Idea
21:10:51 <frosch123> Wolf01: people do not want simple grfs, they want to modify existing complex grfs
21:11:04 <y2000rtc> Ok, how to use Termite? Download it and?
21:11:54 <y2000rtc> Sorry for my questions but I don't have any practice with that.
21:13:46 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: what operating system do you have?
21:14:41 <y2000rtc> Win7 but if is necessary I can make VM.
21:15:02 <andythenorth> most grfs use some extra build tools that work on Windows, but are hard to get setup
21:15:18 <andythenorth> generally they work out the box on Linux, and mostly on OS X
21:15:26 <y2000rtc> I can try it use on Win7, XP, ...
21:16:00 * andythenorth wonders if there’s a pure nml railtype grf
21:16:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: the postprocessor product is posted on bundles
21:16:38 <frosch123> *preprocessor output
21:17:17 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: how much do you want to learn this? o-O
21:18:37 <y2000rtc> I have two goals. First one to edit easiest way grf for to have what I need and second one is to learn really a lot for to understand.
21:19:09 <andythenorth> ok I would suggest following agenda y2000rtc :)
21:19:30 <andythenorth> 1. get nml compiler
21:19:43 <andythenorth> 2. get source code for an existing grf (e.g. Termite, or nml example railtypes grf)
21:19:50 <andythenorth> 3. check you can compile existing grf
21:19:55 <andythenorth> 4. start editing to learn
21:20:36 <andythenorth> 5. when you’ve learnt a bit, try and make the grf you want, by copy-paste from one of the existing, throwing out what you don’t need, adding what you want
21:20:41 <y2000rtc> 1. where to get nml compiler sir?
21:21:12 <y2000rtc> 2. is it possible to use only grf file without source code?
21:21:58 <andythenorth> for 2. only if you want to learn nfo (hex code)
21:22:02 <andythenorth> you likely don't
21:22:08 <Alberth> "use" as in play a game with it?
21:23:35 <Alberth> see the bottom of the tutorial page for a comparison between NML and NFO
21:23:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:24:09 <Alberth> I would suggest you select the NML column for future use :)
21:26:26 <Alberth> or at least move them back into view
21:27:46 <Alberth> not sure, Rb claims it's not
21:28:07 <Alberth> maybe the window is not very resizable or so
21:28:21 <Alberth> don't understand why Rb says that
21:29:10 <andythenorth> he was just adjusting status
21:30:12 <Alberth> yes, because he doesn't see it as a bug
21:30:17 <andythenorth> industry windows are moved when I resize viewport
21:30:21 <andythenorth> so the methods exist
21:31:29 <andythenorth> newgrf window neither
21:31:43 <Alberth> it's just a function that walks through the window-stack :)
21:31:58 <Alberth> not all windows resize very well
21:32:24 <Alberth> maybe they stay centered?
21:33:00 <Alberth> if they do, then that technically indeed counts as not a bug
21:33:08 <Alberth> since they are properly centered
21:33:15 <Alberth> just not in a useful way :p
21:33:52 <andythenorth> I’ve attached this conversation :P
21:33:57 <andythenorth> there’s nothing else I can do with that
21:33:59 <Alberth> from UX pov, it counts as bug :p
21:34:55 <andythenorth> not convinced that supporting resize-to-smaller is a big thing
21:34:59 <andythenorth> especially at game start
21:35:55 <Alberth> I sometimes do resize the window while playing, to make room for another window
21:36:02 <Alberth> but in general, I agree
21:36:18 <andythenorth> has to stay open?
21:36:46 <Alberth> I wasn't going to fix it, so I don't care either way
21:37:39 <y2000rtc> Thank you guys. Is not really easy to do it. Termite is about metro tracks. I want to have different rails of speed and the same graphics.
21:38:11 <frosch123> y2000rtc: you can also assign speed limits via orders
21:38:18 <Alberth> I already run short on time for #6053 with all the things I am doing
21:38:39 <Alberth> Termite is train tracks, afaik
21:38:53 <y2000rtc> via orders? Please any details?
21:38:55 <Alberth> maybe it has tram tracks too?
21:39:18 <y2000rtc> I want that only for normal railways.
21:41:25 <y2000rtc> Ok, clear. What I want to do is to make a railway from station to station with different rails of speed. Arround station to go 40 km/h for example, after that 80 km/h and arround depo 20 km/h.
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21:42:56 <y2000rtc> I already have GRF file with that but for these speeds are used different designs of rails and I would like to use the same design. :)
21:44:02 <andythenorth> which grf is it?
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21:55:49 <y2000rtc> It is called NuTracks
21:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's really simple then, you grab the source of nutracks, and remove the parts that define how the rails look
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22:09:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: I made it to page 10 of celestar thread :P
22:10:25 <frosch123> how does it compare to fs?
22:11:31 <andythenorth> this appears to pre-date newgrf industries, cargos, railtypes
22:11:34 <andythenorth> that can’t be right
22:11:41 <andythenorth> I started FIRS in 2008
22:12:12 <frosch123> industry cargos were implemented in ottd in 2007
22:12:42 <andythenorth> loads of stuff about planes again
22:14:15 <frosch123> i played a plane game once, it was fun, second game was boring
22:14:46 <andythenorth> is the only idea I’ve seen so far that I want an API for :P
22:15:03 <andythenorth> everything else is either (1) dumb (2) good, but not OpenTTD (3) solved in newgrf
22:15:19 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3856
22:15:19 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01
22:20:52 <frosch123> what, you were part of it?
22:21:38 <frosch123> at least your opinion did not change :)
22:21:59 <andythenorth> I was right all along :P
22:22:15 <andythenorth> I should write some kind of economy spec
22:22:59 <frosch123> "(nfo) can be fund to write" (andy, 2009)
22:23:27 <frosch123> oi, i forgot about p1sim
22:23:35 * andythenorth should have made a python compiler for nfo
22:23:37 <frosch123> what happened to that?
22:25:01 * andythenorth looks in map bits
22:25:05 <frosch123> hmm, it has a similar statistic as factorio
22:25:12 <frosch123> 100 lines per file on average
22:25:26 <frosch123> that's really weird to me...
22:25:39 <andythenorth> many many small files?
22:25:49 <frosch123> sometimes you have short files, but 100 on average? that means some files are a lot shorter
22:26:01 <andythenorth> our files look very big to me
22:26:02 <frosch123> you need at least 20 lines for #include
22:26:07 <andythenorth> but I only look in the big ones :P
22:26:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: 500-1000 sounds normal to me
22:26:34 <frosch123> at 4k it tends to get tedious
22:27:01 <andythenorth> I mostly look in industry_cmd.cpp :P
22:27:07 <frosch123> oh... maybe i count header files wrong
22:27:13 <andythenorth> eh so I’ve had half an idea for a long time
22:27:14 <frosch123> headers can be really short without documentation
22:27:31 <andythenorth> I want to keep some kind of ‘economy health’ byte around
22:27:36 <andythenorth> preferably per tile
22:28:03 <andythenorth> accessible to newgrf, settable by gs (but not requiring gs callbacks)
22:28:18 <andythenorth> per tile might suck, might have to be per town
22:29:17 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Thank you so much. Question due to repository. Is there any way how to download whole folder with source code? And *.pnml, what should be edited and compile to GRF? :(
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22:31:43 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: great help, I'm still closer and closer to my goal. :D
22:33:10 * y2000rtc slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
22:33:24 <andythenorth> that’s not been said here for a while
22:34:46 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Ok, I downloaded file NuTrack last version and there is only grf file. What I have to downloaded for to edited and make a grf?
22:36:20 <andythenorth> you likely won’t have anything on Windows that can run Make
22:37:07 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Thanks again Andy. It looks much better. Right now I have to find right file for editing and there something change and after that make a new GRF file from that, or?
22:38:25 <andythenorth> but I would skip that for now
22:38:42 <andythenorth> you should have a folder, like nutracks-r252-source
22:38:50 <andythenorth> put the nutracks.nml file in there
22:39:18 <andythenorth> ach, I don’t know how to use nmlc on windows though :P
22:39:48 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: :) Was already putted.
22:40:11 <andythenorth> there must be instructions for using nmlc on windows somewhere
22:41:05 <y2000rtc> Yes, it is SW and I already have there.
22:41:18 <y2000rtc> Is working with some parametres. I used that.
22:41:34 <y2000rtc> It is working over CMD but which parameter must be putted?
22:41:46 <y2000rtc> Maybe there are the same like on a Linux.
22:42:04 <andythenorth> nmlc -c --grf mygrf.grf mygrf.nml
22:42:18 <andythenorth> swap ‘mygrf’ for ‘nutracks’ or so
22:42:18 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Great. :)
22:42:46 <andythenorth> it might _just_ compile
22:42:51 <andythenorth> if it does you get a grf
22:43:02 <andythenorth> otherwise it will throw some errors somewhere
22:44:20 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I will do it. One question more. What to change for to use the same design Andy?
22:44:32 <andythenorth> one step at a time :)
22:45:26 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Yes, but I have to change something before compile, or?
22:45:36 <andythenorth> first see if it compiles at all :)
22:45:49 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Whole folder must be moved to folder with nmlc?
22:46:06 <andythenorth> not sure on windows
22:46:36 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Otherwise how to define path?
22:46:55 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I will try.
22:49:20 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: result: [Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION"
22:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to run the makefile properly, then
22:51:57 <andythenorth> ach, it needs some custom tags :(
22:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> VERSION comes from a file "custom_tags.txt" or so, which the makefile fills with the revision (or some other identifying version detail)
22:52:24 <andythenorth> y2000rtc: open lang/english.lng
22:52:38 <andythenorth> delete {VERSION}
22:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> how does that solve anything?
22:53:20 <andythenorth> should get it compiling
22:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> just install mingw, and you can run make.
22:55:41 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Yes, working. :) GRf was made
22:57:02 <y2000rtc> People, have you already seen www.mashinky.com? New game created like a new style of TTD. :) Puzzle style of building and after that 3D. Looks great.
22:57:58 <andythenorth> there’s a few out there
22:59:04 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Hmm. Interesting.
23:04:19 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: So, now I have to find parameter for choosing design and this one to change to the same everytime. Or?
23:05:28 <andythenorth> you want base set (origina) rails only?
23:05:32 <andythenorth> or Nutracks rails?
23:06:02 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: I want to set original design to all rails in NuTracks.
23:07:24 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: In NuTracks it is the slowest rail.
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23:09:31 <andythenorth> look for graphics {} blocks
23:09:37 <andythenorth> delete everything inside them
23:09:53 * andythenorth hasn’t coded any railtypes, but eh
23:13:50 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: A lot of findings.
23:21:46 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Just deleting whole blocks?
23:21:56 <andythenorth> everything between graphics {}
23:22:16 <andythenorth> that should restore defaults
23:27:18 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Done, I'm going to try it.
23:29:26 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: ←[Knmlc ERROR: "src/standard-gauge/RAIL.pnml", line 34: Syntax error, unexpected token "}" Included from: "<stdin>", line 36
23:29:39 <andythenorth> what’s on line 36?
23:30:32 <andythenorth> maybe graphics block can’t be empty, or maybe it’s an extra / missing { or }
23:33:13 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: underlay: ground_switch_underlay_RAIL;
23:35:03 <andythenorth> getting late for me to figure that out :P
23:35:34 <andythenorth> most people probably going to bed
23:36:06 <y2000rtc> andythenorth: Offcourse. Thank you so much. Tomorrow is great.
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