IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-30
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05:59:18 <gentz> Uhhhh... so I'm making a patch which makes the convert/upgrade rails button also upgrade trains if there in a depo
05:59:33 <gentz> cause electric -> monorail is super painfull
06:00:06 <gentz> Is there anyone who I should consult on this/ask permission from before I start?
07:33:30 <LordAro> gentz: permission? no one. that's open source for you :p
07:34:07 <LordAro> however, if you're actually planning on getting it included in the game in the future, that's a bit more tricky
07:40:23 <LordAro> i'm not aware of any existing patch that does this, but there are a few newgrfs that attempt to solve the same issue (universal railtypes, notably)
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08:28:32 <Flygon> So you specify what train is upgraded to which when upgrading the track?
08:28:42 <Flygon> ie. to account for NewGRF sets, rather than the base-set.
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10:31:00 <Alkel_U3> GUIwise, specifying the replacement scheme could be done from the autoreplace window. It won't be carried out when the new train is incompatible with the depot's railtype but it could be accounted for when performing the depot upgrade
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11:50:19 <Wolf01> Strange, it took me more time to have the breakfast (a coffee) than going to bank
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12:39:47 <planetmaker> LordAro, can you check whether paste.o.o works for you now w/o cert issues?
12:55:46 <LordAro> planetmaker: works \o/
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13:45:10 <LordAro> thanks planetmaker :)
13:53:59 <andythenorth> no cert issues for me now either :)
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16:25:37 <andythenorth> @summon frosch123
16:25:37 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk
16:25:45 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: 'chalk' is not a valid topic number.
16:42:32 <andythenorth> Leif should fork it :)
16:42:33 <Wolf01> andythenorth: send me some will?
16:42:46 <andythenorth> Wolf01: is it not for cheap on ebay?
16:43:28 <Wolf01> Seem it's against ebay tos to sell that
16:47:14 <Wolf01> I can exchange some will with a bag full of air bags
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16:55:55 <LordAro> andythenorth: that link iz excellent
16:56:18 <andythenorth> it was linked back from the JS version someone posted here a month or so ago
16:57:02 <LordAro> yeah, i thought it was reminiscent
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18:12:54 <andythenorth> “waving or drowning?"
18:18:30 <andythenorth> “waving whilst drowning"
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18:42:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: devs.openttd.org/~frosch/newfarm/openttd-dev-macosx-10.8-x86_64.zip <- does that work?
18:45:16 <Wolf01> Does not have http(s):// in front, so it's not clickable :P
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18:49:44 <Wolf01> You asked if that works, as a link it doesn't (needs to be copied and pasted in browser), I can't speak about the content
18:52:44 <frosch123> don't turn into eddi
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18:58:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: planetmaker: actually, do you still have 32bit osx systems?
18:59:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: not sure how to check but I doubt it
18:59:58 <andythenorth> iirc, Apple have dropped 32 bit apps
19:00:04 <andythenorth> or have announced they are
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19:01:50 <andythenorth> seems mine is 64 bit
19:02:52 <frosch123> osx 10.6 is the last 32bit one or something
19:03:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: binary you linked w.f.m
19:03:41 * andythenorth would be more ruthless about dropping old OS X version support
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19:04:03 <frosch123> TrueBrain: TrueBrain-Bot: so, what actualy needs doing then? the docker files you linked just work (tm)
19:06:40 <planetmaker> frosch123, I do still have the old laptop. And it might even boot into OSXX 10.6 or whatever it has. I haven't started it in ages
19:06:54 <planetmaker> I think that's a 64 bit system, though
19:07:13 <frosch123> so, no point in creating a 32bit binary for testing?
19:07:27 <planetmaker> it can build and run 32bit and 64 bit binaries
19:07:30 <andythenorth> I have a 32 bit mac in my loft
19:07:37 <planetmaker> usually that's combined to a universal one.
19:07:50 <LordAro> might be worth asking on the forums?
19:08:12 <planetmaker> but... I wouldn't think anyone with a straight mind would still play OpenTTD on a 32bit mac system
19:08:22 <andythenorth> we have open FS about compiling on 10.4
19:08:27 <planetmaker> however people build it for a raspberry pie and simiolar
19:08:32 <andythenorth> probably 32 bit PowerPC
19:08:58 <andythenorth> you buy the fruit logo, you get aggressive deprecation
19:09:06 <andythenorth> other brands of computer are available
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19:12:52 <andythenorth> I’ve only left them open in case I’m missing something
19:13:11 <andythenorth> defining official support policies…eh I’m not authorised for that :)
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19:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27903 trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt (2017-08-30 19:45:39 +0200 )
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> vietnamese: 37 changes by myquartz
19:46:19 <Wolf01> Friend (yes, that one) asked for "openttd:" protocol to connect to server links clicked in browser/email/wtf
19:47:27 <Wolf01> BTW I told him to stop harassing me with stupid things and just use the ingame server browser
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20:13:23 <andythenorth> quintuple rainbow over my house
20:14:59 <andythenorth> shall I close those OS X tickets then? o_O
20:15:12 <andythenorth> we don’t have a maintainer to comment, and the BDFL is absent :P
20:15:17 <frosch123> most weird thing i ever saw was when it rained so heavily while sun-shining that the raindrops smashing onto the street created a ground fog with rainbows in them
20:15:50 <frosch123> like, usually rainbows are far away, but there it were only like 10m
20:16:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: how long does it last if you only close one per day?
20:16:41 <frosch123> i meant the osx ones :p
20:16:51 <andythenorth> ach, probably a week :P
20:17:01 <andythenorth> some are stupid, impossible to repro
20:25:50 <andythenorth> ‘it runs for a while'
20:27:03 <andythenorth> with no savegame no repro steps
20:31:38 <andythenorth> is there a policy on crash reports?
20:37:05 <frosch123> the other platforms give a backtrace in the crash.log
20:37:15 <frosch123> noone seem to have implemented that for osx
20:40:19 <andythenorth> it’s probably not something I’d be able to learn quickly :P
20:41:13 <frosch123> it should be similar to the linux one
20:41:21 <frosch123> though maybe it needs clang specific code
20:41:30 <frosch123> so, maybe also something for LordAro
20:41:31 <andythenorth> should I put a mac on SSH somewhere? :P
20:42:00 <andythenorth> I do actually have spare macs, and a moderately stable cable connection
20:43:02 <frosch123> LordAro: does clang also link with glibc?
20:43:21 <frosch123> i.e. does src/os/unix/crashlog_unix.cpp become active as well?
20:43:34 <frosch123> it has implementations for glibc and solaris (wtf)
20:43:59 <LordAro> it uses gcc's stdlib by defauly
20:44:14 <frosch123> otoh, do i recall some c++11 stuff for backtraces?
20:44:27 <andythenorth> $49 / month to rent a crap mac mini in a datacentre :P
20:48:52 <frosch123> so, there is a crashlog_osx.cpp, and it contains code for stacktraces
20:49:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: if you kill your openttd with "killall -6 openttd"
20:49:24 <frosch123> does the crash.log contain a stacktrace?
20:52:41 * andythenorth hasn’t figured the offset, but it’s off by one hour compared to BST
20:53:14 <frosch123> ok, so it contains some stacktrace
20:53:38 <frosch123> can't tell whether it is short because it was idling
20:56:19 <frosch123> can you make a real crash, like reloading bad newgrf :p
20:56:28 <frosch123> you may have experience with that :)
20:58:03 <andythenorth> I crash it a lot on changed strings :P
20:58:09 <andythenorth> but that was killall
20:59:45 <blocage> there is no offscreen drawing ?
20:59:46 <frosch123> well, that crashlog code has been there since at least 2009
21:00:10 <frosch123> so, no idea why some tasks have none
21:04:13 <andythenorth> maybe the crashlog code crashed :P
21:05:24 <andythenorth> is it fair game to close crash reports without full information?
21:05:50 <andythenorth> imo, crash reports tend towards being useful in aggregate, not individual cases :P
21:05:55 <frosch123> there is a close reason "not enough information"
21:11:11 <andythenorth> so there used to be an automated crash reporter? o_O
21:11:39 <frosch123> i read about that, but never saw it
21:11:46 <frosch123> must be more than 10 years ago :)
21:13:22 <andythenorth> aggregate, data-mine, plot on a chart :P
21:13:37 <andythenorth> I have NFI how to actually do that, but it’s an interesting project
21:14:23 <frosch123> well, given that crash.dmp end up being beyond 20mib lately...
21:14:43 <andythenorth> that does get interesting
21:14:48 <andythenorth> it would scale horribly? :)
21:14:59 <frosch123> while we extract like 500byte from them...
21:15:19 <andythenorth> could we ingest crash reports on a queue, extract the data, incremement statistics, delete the raw report?
21:15:44 <andythenorth> somewhat similar to a behaviour tracking system we wrote for flash games years ago at work
21:16:03 <andythenorth> except not 20mib
21:16:08 <andythenorth> more like a few kb
21:18:23 <frosch123> hmm, maybe release builds are compiled without debug symbols
21:19:05 <frosch123> stable binary is about 2mib smaller than nightly for osx
21:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so there used to be an automated crash reporter? o_O <-- i vaguely remember a button like "send crash report", but i think that never worked. or was disabled on most platforms, or something
21:24:34 <andythenorth> well I closed 2 OS X bugs
21:25:46 <planetmaker> frosch123, andythenorth I used to get stacktraces on OSX... but maybe things changed?
21:25:53 <planetmaker> you need to compile as debug build possibly, though
21:28:07 <andythenorth> if it’s possibly fixed?
21:29:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you can close 6365
21:29:23 <andythenorth> no further reports?
21:30:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: i bet 6393 is "out of memory"
21:31:15 <andythenorth> seems to be a pattern of OS X AI bugs?
21:31:37 <frosch123> it is a 32bit binary, and it uses 32bpp blitter, but no 32bpp baseset
21:32:06 <frosch123> though... does that change it?
21:32:14 <frosch123> it's the same memory usage right?
21:32:26 <andythenorth> hmm, AI issues aren’t specific to OS X, nvm
21:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't the sprite cache size get automatically adjusted?
21:32:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but before the ais
21:33:05 <frosch123> so after spritecache you have very little heap, and ai may use all of that
21:33:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: can you find a pattern "32bit binary, 32bit blitter, ai crash"?
21:33:58 <frosch123> all of those are potentially "out of memory"
21:34:40 <andythenorth> they’re not all out of memory, I can see that much :)
21:35:17 <andythenorth> if only we had a thing that parsed crash logs into sqlite or something :P
21:35:37 <frosch123> you can likely write a python script for that
21:35:47 <frosch123> query all fs, download all crash.log, parse them
21:36:02 <andythenorth> sounds like a job for LordAro :)
21:36:49 <andythenorth> Wolf01 was bored earlier
21:37:03 <andythenorth> flyspray has rss buried somewhere
21:37:19 <andythenorth> or just curl html and use libxml or something
21:37:32 <andythenorth> walking the dom is always fun :P
21:38:16 <frosch123> i would use regex on the html
21:38:25 <andythenorth> the horrible thing is, given a spare weekend I could actually write this in python :|
21:38:31 <andythenorth> it wouldn’t be good, but it would work
21:38:45 <frosch123> i would think it's a single-use software
21:43:54 <andythenorth> for 32 bug reports, manually processing them would be faster
21:46:15 <andythenorth> oh no, that’s a 64 bit binary
21:46:21 * andythenorth looking in wrong place :P
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21:51:14 <frosch123> 6322 says "out of memory" in the crash.log explicitly :)
21:51:28 <frosch123> i guess the question was whether ottd should catch ais causing out of memory
21:52:07 <andythenorth> I’ve been through all 32 FS ‘Crash:’, those are the ones that fit the criteria
21:52:14 * andythenorth could have made mistakes but eh
21:52:32 <frosch123> (in this case the ai tires to allocate 200mib, which is 10% of everything, and spritecache already takes like 50%)
21:53:00 <andythenorth> seems like there are four possibly related to same cause?
21:53:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, two of them already blame the ais in the comments :)
21:53:28 <andythenorth> should I link them? Or overkill?
21:54:20 <frosch123> keep 6322, link the rest as duplicate
21:58:37 <frosch123> so we have a 32bit macosx user in 2017 :)
21:58:40 <andythenorth> seems OS X will segfault on OOM
21:58:47 <andythenorth> or so random google searches imply :P
21:58:54 <andythenorth> “andythenorth is not a programmer”
21:59:19 <andythenorth> also seems OS X will segfault if trying to allocate more than 3GB on a 32bit system
22:00:02 <frosch123> i guess since 6615 is recent, we could recommend to disable 32bpp blitter via openttd.cfg or command line
22:01:00 <andythenorth> I closed it as duplicate, should I reopen and request user tries 8bpp blitter?
22:01:15 <frosch123> no reopen, just a hint
22:01:30 <frosch123> i doubt the user would get that info from the other task
22:01:50 <frosch123> actuall,y the guy runs osx 10.12
22:02:03 <frosch123> so 10.12 does exist for 32bit?
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22:05:23 <andythenorth> internet says Apple dropped 32 bit CPU support in 2011, but they still support 32 bit apps until 10.14
22:07:40 <frosch123> yes, if it is reproducible with the save :)
22:11:46 <andythenorth> well 7 closed today
22:12:11 <andythenorth> it’s rare to see a newgrf-related crash afaik
22:13:03 <andythenorth> I accidentally discovered it, because habitually I ignore the ‘newgrfs are missing’ message on game load
22:13:21 <andythenorth> then I bisected the grfs
22:20:19 <andythenorth> how is news posted to openttd.org?
22:20:48 <frosch123> it's the only thing we use django for :p
22:21:11 <frosch123> hmm, actually the security advistor is also run via django, but we have not used that in years
22:21:52 <andythenorth> I wondered about posting some updates on state of dev
22:22:06 <andythenorth> but I don’t actually want community comments on it, in a thread
22:22:46 <andythenorth> do I read gitlog right, adf88 now has commit rights?
22:23:47 <andythenorth> so 50% reduction in FS, multiple patches implemented, and new feature for visualising train length? o_O. And a new dev
22:25:28 <andythenorth> ^ that’s news eh
22:25:50 <andythenorth> a project that has good news more likely attracts more decent devs
22:26:56 <frosch123> do you want to blog? :)
22:27:05 <frosch123> tb writes a blog every few years
22:27:27 <frosch123> V used to write blogs on coop, but then switched to writing them at work
22:28:26 <andythenorth> I don’t want to blog no
22:28:35 <frosch123> anyway, i do not develop constantly enough to twitch-stream it :p
22:28:42 <andythenorth> but I would like to attract in 1-2 more devs, to make it all more fun
22:28:48 <frosch123> it's always 5 minuted that, 5 minutes this
22:29:09 <andythenorth> it would be nice to have someone doing little updates
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22:29:49 <andythenorth> I would rather blog than work on the current web stack :P
22:30:43 <andythenorth> but most of all I should finish FIRS v3
22:31:07 <andythenorth> otoh, if we fix Bananas I can fix the stupidity of FIRS names
22:31:08 <frosch123> write a newgrf newbie guide :)
22:31:33 <andythenorth> I wondered about writing an updated contributing-to-openttd guide
22:31:40 <frosch123> or improve the ottd gui to easily import grf presets
22:31:54 <frosch123> and allow downloading the grfs for presets
22:32:19 <andythenorth> “FIRS Industry Replacement Set”
22:32:33 <andythenorth> “FIRS Industry Replacement Set 3"
22:32:38 <andythenorth> should have named it better eh?
22:32:56 <frosch123> well, bananas cannot rename stuff :)
22:33:05 <frosch123> one of its biggest downsides
22:34:08 <frosch123> i wonder, if we had a proper spec for bananas, what would it cost to hire some crud to implement it?
22:34:18 <frosch123> or would it end up like the factorio mod portal?
22:35:10 <frosch123> (factorio mod portal was written by some community member, then purchased by the devs, and is cursed since then)
22:35:32 * andythenorth looks at the repo
22:36:07 <andythenorth> so in theory, I could have commit access to extra/website, without having to have access to main repo?
22:36:27 <glx> hmm it's all or nothing I think
22:36:35 <andythenorth> otherwise I have to do everything in github, and file pull requests against one of you
22:36:50 <andythenorth> and there is no way I want or would get commit right on ottd
22:37:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: eints is also separate
22:37:31 <frosch123> there is zero reason for it to be in ottd svn
22:37:50 <andythenorth> it would not be a bad project to pioneer moving to github?
22:38:07 <andythenorth> I am surprised there are not more web dev contributors tbh
22:38:12 <andythenorth> although maybe I shouldn’t be
22:38:15 <frosch123> the question is whether it even makes sense to build on top of the old one
22:38:38 <andythenorth> I can’t comment until I get the VM, run it, and figure out how to SSH into it :P
22:38:50 <andythenorth> you’ve scared me with the master server commentary
22:39:08 <frosch123> bananas is fairly easy in comparison
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22:40:26 <frosch123> the advantage of webapps is that you can mostly replace them and migrate the database once
22:40:35 <frosch123> you do not have to keep savegame compatibility :p
22:42:21 <glx> but sometimes the DB structure is a problem
22:44:43 <_dp_> but in webapps there is IE to deal with :p
22:45:28 * andythenorth will be dropping IE 9 support in Jan 2018 :P
22:45:34 <andythenorth> only 2 years after microsoft
22:45:57 <andythenorth> frosch123 the front end…I’d just rebuild from scratch
22:46:05 <andythenorth> I’ve rebuilt websites and web apps n times
22:46:34 <andythenorth> I’m not a huge fan of technical docs, but is there a basic diagram for bananas?
22:46:45 <andythenorth> either the stack, or data flow?
22:46:52 * _dp_ rebuilt web apps many times too, some of them even successfully :p
22:46:53 <andythenorth> or calls between services
22:47:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a database with iiirc a single table for all the content
22:47:39 <andythenorth> (1) how big is it
22:47:48 <frosch123> when stuff is added, the data is extracted in some safe way, tested with a few scripts, and then repackaged
22:47:50 <andythenorth> (2) are the binaries in the db, or blobs on disk?
22:48:19 <frosch123> easy to check with the vm
22:49:12 <andythenorth> hey I didn’t lose it when I migrated laptop :)
22:49:42 <andythenorth> oh maybe I did, that’s just an old Virtualbox config I found
22:51:29 <andythenorth> it’s nice that VirtualBox is free
22:51:41 <andythenorth> I would otherwise pay as much as £8.99 for it
22:52:03 <andythenorth> I would not be happy at that price
22:52:55 <andythenorth> well it’s running frosch123
22:52:59 <andythenorth> how do I linux? :P
22:53:27 <frosch123> did your add port-forwarding?
22:53:40 <andythenorth> nor do I have the login password stored here
22:55:23 <LordAro> i may or may not have been playing with rewriting the website in django 1.11
22:55:32 <andythenorth> non-committal :P
22:55:39 <frosch123> LordAro: albert may have as well
22:55:48 <frosch123> you should agree on what actually needs doing
22:56:02 <LordAro> i've thrown everything out and started again :p
22:56:17 <LordAro> and am just taking what's relevant
22:56:28 * andythenorth has never djangoed
22:56:39 <_dp_> screw django, lets' rewrite in flask :p
22:56:47 <andythenorth> it’s probably just python views backed by models, with a templating language?
22:56:50 <andythenorth> and some dispatcher
22:56:57 <andythenorth> and a wsgi pipeline frontend?
22:57:13 <LordAro> yeah, i mean ultimately django is overkill for what the site currently does
22:57:28 <andythenorth> obviously picking the tech should come before having any actual goals :)
22:57:29 <LordAro> flask comes with its own issues though
22:57:43 <LordAro> i suspect it might be too minimalistic for this
22:58:02 <andythenorth> actually I am -1 to flask
22:58:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would start with the database layout
22:58:22 <blocage> you talk about the openttd web site ?
22:58:27 <frosch123> anyway, bananas content is on disk
22:58:29 <LordAro> andythenorth: simple.http,clearly
22:58:35 <frosch123> database only contains links
22:58:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: usually I start from core entities in the site => base classes => data structure
22:58:56 <andythenorth> but eh, I live in a world of python objects
22:59:06 <andythenorth> it’s all just tables in sql land
22:59:09 <_dp_> LordAro, how is it "too minimalistic", it can do pretty much everything django can, you just pick separate libraries instead of bundled ones
22:59:22 <andythenorth> are we going to have a framework-off?
22:59:27 <andythenorth> wake me up when it’s done :P
22:59:41 <LordAro> _dp_: i've had bad experiences with those separate libraries
23:00:02 <andythenorth> the currently winning python combo for apps is pyramid + postgres
23:00:20 <andythenorth> website agencies seem to favour django, it’s probably doing more out of the box for them
23:00:35 <andythenorth> everyone hacking their own little thing seems to like bottle or flask
23:00:38 <_dp_> LordAro, I had bad experience trying to make django work with those separate libraries :p
23:01:14 * andythenorth prefers a compile to static html if at all possible
23:02:25 <andythenorth> the master server does what?
23:02:32 <LordAro> there are bits of the site that are dynamic though
23:02:40 <andythenorth> handshakes with clients and routes requests to appropriate services?
23:03:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: there are two parts of master server
23:03:43 <frosch123> one is contacted by the servers to register them
23:04:02 <frosch123> the other part queries the servers on return, to see their status and query newgrf for the website
23:04:25 <frosch123> anyway, no need to touch any of that currently
23:04:42 <andythenorth> is it isolated behind some API>
23:04:59 <frosch123> it runs without django
23:05:08 <_dp_> I bet it's isolated behind some db :p
23:05:10 <andythenorth> how does django talk to it? Or not ?
23:05:18 <frosch123> through some db iirc
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23:05:43 <frosch123> actually, likely plain python without django
23:05:53 <frosch123> just read db contents
23:06:28 * andythenorth needs a stack diagram
23:07:19 <andythenorth> will I make any sense of it by ls-ing dirs in the VM?
23:07:26 <andythenorth> that’s how I usually find my way around web apps
23:07:35 <frosch123> start with the readme :)
23:08:11 <andythenorth> I’ve crashed the VM :)
23:08:25 <LordAro> that took you less than a minute
23:08:53 <frosch123> you crashed the vm without crashing your whole machine?
23:09:04 <andythenorth> resized the virtualbox window
23:09:11 <andythenorth> sounds like our bugs too eh?
23:09:19 <frosch123> it has been long since vbox messed something up, but if, then it took the whole machine with it
23:10:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you could also read musad source
23:10:15 <andythenorth> so to develop in a VM I have to set up some kind of mount point on OS X
23:10:28 <frosch123> it only contains the base business logic without the gui mess
23:10:33 <andythenorth> so to develop in a VM, I have to…google stuff
23:10:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: i usually configure port forwarding for ssh and http
23:11:06 <frosch123> then login via ssh to the box
23:12:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: i believe that is also written in the readme :p
23:12:52 <andythenorth> I just have to translate it into OS X, and be sure I’m not breaking our infosec policy
23:14:23 <LordAro> frosch123: on a related subject, the ovh sponsor html stuff is a horrid flash thing, do you think you could dig up something a bit more modern?
23:14:48 <frosch123> LordAro: well, we have not been sponsored for 2 years, just noone removed it
23:16:38 <frosch123> i hate their advertisement
23:16:52 <frosch123> squarespace has at least nicer ads
23:17:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: apparently it generates horrendous sites
23:18:04 <andythenorth> I am not sold, not even at £free
23:18:13 <andythenorth> how do I get out of readme.txt?
23:18:23 <andythenorth> I typed ‘edit readme.txt'
23:18:23 <frosch123> how did you get into?
23:18:27 <andythenorth> :q isn’t working
23:19:32 <frosch123> i watched a gitlab video recently
23:20:02 <frosch123> they demonstrated how to login to the deployment vm
23:20:13 <frosch123> which was essentially a shell in a webbroweser
23:20:21 <frosch123> and then the guy used vi to edit something
23:20:52 <frosch123> so you had vi in a webbrowser tab :p
23:21:45 <andythenorth> reset the machine :P
23:21:53 <andythenorth> life is too short for vim
23:22:03 <andythenorth> or finding out what my keyboard is bound too in the VM
23:22:05 <andythenorth> one or the other
23:22:24 <frosch123> oh, true, it may have a german keyboard layout :p
23:22:28 <frosch123> even more reason to login via ssh
23:23:02 <frosch123> so ":" is shift+"."
23:24:51 <andythenorth> so what do we need to do again?
23:25:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: only "new bananas"
23:25:37 <frosch123> yes, all those listed yesterday
23:25:42 <andythenorth> do we need to reskin?
23:25:45 <andythenorth> can we avoid that?
23:25:56 <andythenorth> reskinning is like my glamorous day job
23:25:58 <Wolf01> "openttd:" protocol... just kidding
23:25:59 <frosch123> keep the bananas, noone cares about the rest
23:26:08 <frosch123> make it bootstrap again
23:26:09 <andythenorth> and anyone else doing the skin will likely annoy me :p
23:26:21 <andythenorth> I need to learn bootstrap 4 anyway
23:26:28 <andythenorth> I am stuck in 2 and 3 land
23:27:25 <Wolf01> Man... the one I used last was 2
23:27:56 <_dp_> idk, still looks alpha to me
23:28:29 <andythenorth> eh it’s all gone flexbox?
23:28:32 <_dp_> I'm waiting for that damn thing for more than a year already
23:29:03 <andythenorth> flexbox is likely 5 years in my future :(
23:29:43 <Wolf01> Flexbox seem the fashion of the moment, and I didn't even used that yet, I usually try all that new stuff
23:29:52 <_dp_> " we finally have our first beta release of Bootstrap 4. In that time, we’ve broken all the things at least twenty-seven times over ..."
23:30:49 <andythenorth> seriously, who is using flexbox anywhere if there is broken IE support?
23:31:10 <andythenorth> presumably mac-using hipster JS developers?
23:31:18 * andythenorth combines stereotypes :P
23:31:56 <Wolf01> ShittIE still used more than Edge :(
23:33:24 <_dp_> I think last web thing I was doing only worked in alpha ff xD
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