IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-29
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00:53:46 <Wolf01> Alkel_U3: my friend found what happened, he installed amahi and something fucked up with that and reset the network interface to some old configuration...
00:56:13 <Alkel_U3> well, now he can start towards another fuckup :-)
00:56:38 <Wolf01> He decided to move to debian
00:57:48 <Alkel_U3> I think that is sane
00:59:41 <Alkel_U3> Also I should not keep forgetting to disconnect my relay client on phone when trying to fall asleep :-)
01:00:10 <Wolf01> Put phone on quiet hours mode
01:00:17 <Alkel_U3> That's kinda my fuckup
01:00:43 <Wolf01> I think I'll watch 2 more star trek episodes
01:01:47 <Alkel_U3> I'll probably have to install extra app for that, this is Android 5 with touchwiz
01:03:29 <Alkel_U3> Nothing fancy but still sure am glad it's at least that. It doesn't fewl that much a step backwards after getting used to 6
01:04:09 <Wolf01> Never used android >4.0
01:07:08 <Alkel_U3> I used to dislike it but I changed mind with 6
01:08:17 <Alkel_U3> Ok, Alkel sleeping, scene 1, take 2 :-)
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04:20:43 <Rygrass> can someone tell me if autoclean_protected = True and Default is set to 36... does that mean that they are protected for 3 years of game time only ?
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08:12:30 <LordAro> Rygrass: that means that protected companies (those with a password set, iirc) will also be autocleaned
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13:46:29 <Wolf01> ISP tested my line "your line can't handle the speed you are connected at"
13:47:24 <Wolf01> That's the main reason about my problems, the central blocks my connection because I'm too fast
13:55:36 <V453000> andythenorth: tropic trees somehow
13:55:51 <V453000> but basically same technique
13:56:00 <V453000> cacti will definitely be there
13:56:13 <V453000> generally the theme is overgrown plants
13:56:22 <V453000> rather than giant palms, but some of those too
13:56:26 <V453000> simply put, jungle as fuck
14:09:01 <V453000> friend told me the noisiness of the ground doesn't really fit with the cartoony style of the trees
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15:05:24 <V453000> idk, is he and how? solve? :D
15:06:52 <planetmaker> usually with acid, combined sulphuric and nitric acid. No left-overs ;)
15:07:15 <planetmaker> that solves the problematic person :P
15:07:41 <planetmaker> (ok, that joke works better in German) :P
15:08:26 <V453000> trees fit with terrain Y/N? :)
15:08:43 <planetmaker> hm... the terrain is so monochromatic bleak :)
15:09:06 <planetmaker> looks like a scenery from an end-of-time movie :D
15:10:01 <planetmaker> but were the grass green... I think it would fit
15:10:59 <planetmaker> though I can see what your pal means with "too noisy in comparison with the trees". Not sure that matters really. You might try to make the patches on the ground bigger (like half or 1/3 of the frequency)
15:11:35 <planetmaker> I guess 1/3 of the noise frequency would fit better
15:11:58 <_dp_> or add more noise to the trees?
15:12:30 <V453000> I will be releasing 2 version with different grfid, one with green and one with gray land
15:12:55 <V453000> I am quite confident that the gray is a seriously good concept, it makes everything work with 8bpp palette, and that's something that I find extremely important
15:13:12 <V453000> so far to me 32bpp has a giant issue - people want to either replace everything or nothing
15:13:22 <V453000> I've been using brix with DB set and swedish rails, FIRS and so on
15:13:29 <V453000> and it fits perfectly fine thanks to the grayscale
15:13:40 <V453000> extra zoom isn't what breaks things, full RGB is
15:14:32 <V453000> I'll try to play around with the noise, thanks for your feedback :) one of the plans is to have the trees get more noisy from the bottom with a gradient
15:15:34 <Wolf01> __ln__: holy shit... noooooo
15:15:52 <V453000> but yeah, if you want to use green grass, you will easily be able to just by using a different version ... since I Have parameters for disabling anything you want, you can get multiple different versions of BRIX with different grfIDs, and just combine what you want, green land, grayscale houses or whatever there is eventually
15:17:42 <_dp_> btw it looks a bid weird to me having such bright green trees above snowline
15:19:07 <V453000> well they are already darker since the tops aren't visible due to the snow
15:19:22 <_dp_> and below snowline having some autumn colors may not be a bad idea
15:19:43 <V453000> some more oranges will definitely be there along with some lushy greens
15:19:47 <_dp_> pines aren't very bright
15:19:48 <Wolf01> That would mean having seasons too
15:19:50 <V453000> basically that's for grotwh stages
15:20:28 <_dp_> also there is nothing with round canopy that stays green in winter afaik
15:25:48 * _dp_ looking at photos from my winter hikes
15:25:58 <_dp_> if anything pines are black in subarctic :p
15:27:02 <_dp_> actually black trees may look quite good with gray grass
15:28:09 <V453000> the plan isn't really to follow reality 1:1 :)
15:30:56 <V453000> I'm more trying to play with colour theory and the big picture, overall greens are the code colour of trees ... obviously naturally, but then if I want to apply that generally to all trees, I feel like it's fine to have it even for snowy trees etc, because it's their family code that puts them together
15:33:02 <_dp_> I get but it just doesn't look like subarctic imo
15:33:17 <_dp_> and I've been to subarctic, I almost live there
15:33:24 <_dp_> it's dark and moody in winter
15:35:40 <_dp_> snow is beautiful in sunshine but trees stay dark
15:37:57 <V453000> I understand and basically agree
15:38:08 <V453000> just not sure if I want to put it in there, I probably will in some way
15:38:16 <V453000> but some way is very vague :P
15:38:43 <V453000> for example my water is super black, and that's not going to change either :P
15:40:10 <_dp_> black rivers are quite realistic if you ask me :p
15:40:58 <_dp_> unless covered with snow ofc
15:46:12 <_dp_> last time I've seen a river that's more blue than black was somewhere in Turkey I think :)
15:47:48 <milek7> hmm, rivers are green usually :>
15:48:29 <Wolf01> At least the one of my town
15:48:53 <Wolf01> If you go to Rome, the river Tevere is brown
15:53:43 <blocage> maybe we should list color that river cannot be ?
15:54:48 <_dp_> rivers reflect a lot so they can technically be of pretty much any color
15:55:40 <blocage> _dp_, that's the point, list of color that river cannot be : [] ;)
15:56:24 <_dp_> I'm just saying that in subarctic they typically look very dark, almost black, at least where I live
15:57:54 <Wolf01> They look clear to azure here... what do you put into water?
16:00:06 <blocage> There is any tutorial about Window & widget in openttd ?
16:00:12 <_dp_> idk, mud, rust mb. There are lots of swamps here
16:00:41 <Alkel_U3> it depends on the chosen economy and thus on the kind of industrial waste that goes into the rivers
16:01:01 <andythenorth> FIRS should adjust river sprites eh
16:01:56 <blocage> Alkel_U3, you mean that in OTTD we should change the color of river based on surounding industry ;) ?
16:02:13 <Alkel_U3> yea, with mixing, too. Like when a river running from near a scrap yard meets output from a papermill :P
16:02:31 <Alkel_U3> blocage: it can't possibly be a bad feature :D
16:02:57 <_dp_> here it's not an industrial waste, just swamp water has brown color like a black tea
16:05:21 <Alkel_U3> oh, and mutated salamanders crawling out of the rivers and terrorizing nearby cities and sinking ships and displeasing Poseidon and...
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17:06:05 <Wolf01> Meh, ISP removed the 4Mb cap I asked to put... now I'm connected at 4.8Mb and unstable connection
17:10:23 <_dp_> frosch123, that kind of looks like toyland :p
17:11:20 <frosch123> i think that also depends on the size of the pattern
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18:26:50 <andythenorth> what shall we break next? :)
18:27:00 <andythenorth> Wolf01: how is the NoTrees spec? o_O
18:27:31 <Wolf01> You should write that, I'm not good at specs
18:28:00 <Wolf01> I can help you gather info
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18:32:05 <andythenorth> ok, maybe later :)
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19:37:03 <andythenorth> Wolf01: maybe, instead of NewThings
19:37:10 <andythenorth> we should close some more of the 400 FS
19:37:44 <Alberth> how do we have nested groups in trunk?
19:37:57 <Alberth> ie how do you make them?
19:38:36 <Alberth> from "ungroiuped" trains to a new group, ok
19:38:47 <Wolf01> I used them in the past to group by city and then by line for pax trams
19:39:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: do you mean ‘why?’ ? :)
19:39:09 <Wolf01> Drag a group into another
19:39:26 <Alberth> drag groups, let me try that :)
19:39:41 <Alberth> andy, I meant "how" :)
19:40:08 <andythenorth> train length indicators in UI :D
19:41:23 <andythenorth> so should I be joining .dev or no?
19:41:33 <andythenorth> ^ which needs an update anyway
19:43:25 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Rubidium was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, and 9 seconds ago: <Rubidium> sure
19:52:29 <andythenorth> every year, we burn about 50% of our work dev docs at christmas time
19:53:14 * andythenorth thinks burn it all
19:54:07 <frosch123> depends whether you want to link people to already explored stuff
19:54:12 <frosch123> or whether they shall reinvent the wheel
19:54:28 <Alberth> planetmaker believes we should keep old stuff
19:54:33 <andythenorth> wiki must have a way to show editors/contributors?
19:54:40 <andythenorth> sorted by date + frequency?
19:54:59 <andythenorth> I’m not sorting all the wiki crap out, but it’s housekeeping for a healthy project
19:55:01 <Alberth> someone will think it's needed
19:55:10 <andythenorth> $someone always wants to keep stuff
19:55:30 <frosch123> like your emails :p
19:55:43 <Alberth> maybe start with making the manual up-to-date-ish?
19:55:45 <andythenorth> I delete all my emails after 5 years statutory period
19:55:56 <andythenorth> I regret that about 4 times per year
19:56:00 <andythenorth> the rest of the time...not
19:56:39 <Alberth> as far as I am concerned, everything old can go
19:57:00 <andythenorth> presumably wiki has an admin role?
19:57:01 <Alberth> or get updated, if still relevant
19:57:04 * andythenorth would like admin role if so
19:57:28 <frosch123> we have a template for "history pages"
19:58:02 <frosch123> pretty sure there is also a template for "out of date"
19:58:10 <andythenorth> we need a librarian or two
19:58:12 <frosch123> just add those and think of them as "closed"
19:58:25 <andythenorth> but I wouldn’t mind trying to persuade people to do it
19:58:35 <andythenorth> I don’t mind sorting out stupid disputes either :P
19:59:15 <frosch123> there is nothing on the wiki, except kamnet with his newgrf catalogue, xussr and forum photo of the month
19:59:32 <frosch123> i don't think other stuff has seen updates in years
19:59:42 <andythenorth> it’s still the best format for docs though?
20:00:00 <andythenorth> all the how-to-play stuff
20:00:06 <frosch123> the manual is done?
20:00:06 <andythenorth> I still learn stuff there sometimes :P
20:00:22 <frosch123> i considered writing a newgrf howto
20:00:57 <frosch123> using all the stereotypes to make people sort themself into a usergroup
20:01:25 * andythenorth never likes wikis for docs
20:01:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: the windows version has this weird logo
20:01:28 <andythenorth> but anyone can edit
20:01:38 <frosch123> it's also why the windows version has 4(?) sprites more
20:02:08 <andythenorth> docs remain an unsolved problem
20:02:15 <Alberth> so we can merge things :p
20:02:38 <Alberth> markdown would perhaps work somewhat
20:02:50 <frosch123> i do not see demand for anything more than the wiki provides
20:02:58 <frosch123> most people will watch some random yt guy anyway
20:03:29 <andythenorth> github renders md by default
20:03:43 <Alberth> we'll just make a separate repo for the documentation
20:04:01 <frosch123> it is a bad idea though
20:04:07 <frosch123> manual is written by non-tech people
20:04:13 <andythenorth> it adds bureacracy
20:04:24 <andythenorth> and I have to lookup md syntax every time I use it
20:04:25 <Alberth> oh, speaking of web-ish things, do you have time/ideas for bananas2 ?
20:04:33 <Alberth> or rather website(N+1)?
20:04:39 <frosch123> prrety sure there was a feature list for bananas2
20:04:45 <andythenorth> I was thinking about that yesterday Alberth
20:04:52 <andythenorth> what does website do?
20:05:03 <andythenorth> there’s reasons it has to be in a big framework like django?
20:05:13 <frosch123> the reason was single sign on
20:05:18 <Alberth> let's first decide what it should do
20:05:51 <andythenorth> - release announcements? (or on forums?)
20:05:52 <frosch123> now eints uses the same ldap, but you cannot use the same cookie for login
20:05:59 <andythenorth> - download? (or on forums?)
20:06:16 <frosch123> download via main page, since it redirects to mirrors
20:06:29 <frosch123> also, only automated stuff
20:06:44 <andythenorth> - server lists (never noticed those before)
20:07:07 <andythenorth> oh we have a development page here as well
20:07:10 <frosch123> we link them all them time in this channel
20:07:18 <frosch123> it's the second most popular link in this channel
20:07:22 * andythenorth didn’t know we have a dev page on site
20:07:35 <andythenorth> our footprint is quite broad eh? :)
20:07:38 <Alberth> it's more a collection of links
20:07:40 <frosch123> whenever someone does not get mp to work, the site is to tell whether the problem is with server or with client
20:08:39 <andythenorth> oh lots of email addresses on contact
20:08:46 <andythenorth> in case I want to ask for feature requests
20:08:57 <frosch123> yes, they remain unanswered usually :p
20:09:38 <andythenorth> ok so what’s the minimum it could do?
20:10:40 <frosch123> anyway, the trend is to put everything in separate containers
20:10:52 <andythenorth> step 1: fix coop SSL :)
20:10:52 <frosch123> so independent bananas which uses central ldap is prefered
20:11:48 <andythenorth> do we actually need a website?
20:11:50 <Alberth> several small sites thus?
20:12:00 <frosch123> Alberth: like eints
20:12:25 * andythenorth should update eints eh
20:12:36 <frosch123> also bananas website independent of the content server, so similar to musa
20:12:59 <andythenorth> do we need a web client for bananas?
20:13:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: not for the user, but for the content creator
20:14:26 <andythenorth> I long wanted to put a better user client on it
20:14:29 <andythenorth> but I’m not sure
20:14:33 <andythenorth> TMWFTLB probably
20:14:40 <frosch123> it should allow editing the description, renaming stuff, setting compatible versions, setting stuff as "avaialble for new download"
20:15:02 <frosch123> the latter for different ottd versions, not just for the newest
20:15:57 <frosch123> also probably a better method to enter meta data
20:16:06 <frosch123> screenshots are a popular request
20:16:16 <andythenorth> how does a content creator client fit alongside musa?
20:16:18 <frosch123> more useful / predefined tags etc
20:16:23 <andythenorth> two methods for same result = daft?
20:16:36 <frosch123> musa is only for upload
20:16:40 <frosch123> musa cannot edit stuff
20:17:01 <frosch123> but ofc you can also write a better musa client
20:17:21 <frosch123> s/better/non-tech person safe/
20:17:25 <andythenorth> easiest gui would be a web app :P
20:17:39 <andythenorth> ha, start musa locally, serve it on localhost :P
20:17:42 <frosch123> musa was only written because http 1.1 upload fails for big files
20:17:43 <andythenorth> that can’t go wrong
20:17:48 <frosch123> actually, is that better in http 2 ?
20:18:23 <frosch123> or do we need some javascript frontend which uploads differently?
20:18:28 <Alberth> some form of newgrf classification by topics would be useful
20:18:47 <Alberth> eg set of keywords, or tags
20:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> ftp... torrent... :p
20:19:29 <andythenorth> allegedly HTTP POST has no size limit in the protocol
20:19:35 <andythenorth> it’s a configuration option on the server
20:19:50 <andythenorth> I didn’t read actual, real specs
20:20:08 <frosch123> they show how the current gui fails
20:20:18 <andythenorth> tags always fail :)
20:20:19 <frosch123> people use "heightmap" and "2048" as tags
20:20:32 <frosch123> just because there is no proper filter for that
20:20:48 <frosch123> so, imho categories should be predefined and not user defined :p
20:21:00 <frosch123> well, admin-defined i guess
20:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that the whole point of tags, to provide filters where the default ones don't fit?
20:22:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: my experience of running apps with community tagging is that it’s….a nice idea in theory
20:22:01 <frosch123> good point, that page only exists because neither bananas nor grfcrawler have that moderator support
20:23:28 <Alberth> Eddi: You want all "eye-candy" grfs together, eg
20:23:35 * andythenorth always gets bored by the details of docs + librarian issues
20:23:46 <Alberth> not sure that yuo make a classification covering enough
20:23:58 <andythenorth> make a decent environment for people to do creative work - programming, drawing, writing etc
20:24:21 <frosch123> also: a web-gui to compose a newgrf selection via some wizard-interface that prevents to stupidest things (like 2 industry sets),. and some export/import via clipboard into ottd
20:24:28 <andythenorth> bananas is easy: just put all grfs made by andythenorth at top
20:24:37 <andythenorth> and put all V453000 grfs at bottom
20:24:44 <frosch123> also permalinks to those newgrf-lists for sharing
20:24:47 <andythenorth> put a sort-order-toggle button on
20:25:18 <frosch123> 512 hexdigit fingerprint?
20:26:29 <frosch123> Alberth: in summary, we need a supersed of current bananas, musa, grfcrawler and wiki-newgrf-site
20:26:59 <frosch123> (note that both bananas website and musa both have features which the other one does not have)
20:27:19 <frosch123> like only musa support multiple authors and dependencies with versions
20:27:29 <frosch123> while only website allows editing existing stuff
20:28:27 <andythenorth> should I reopen? :)
20:29:02 <frosch123> do you have a fidget spinner or fidget cube?
20:29:09 <Alberth> nah, you want a demo image
20:29:29 <Alberth> or a screenshot-ish something
20:30:21 <Alberth> I don't care about preview of the same helicopter in all 8 directions :)
20:30:24 <frosch123> Alberth: preview of license :)
20:30:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: too many fidget spinners here already :P
20:30:50 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I think it’s interesting to rethink how that works
20:30:56 <andythenorth> the specific layout…dunno
20:31:09 <andythenorth> but it makes a more direct connection Wolf01
20:31:14 <andythenorth> that’s important
20:31:32 <Wolf01> The current UI is too much verbose, I would like more graphics
20:32:02 <andythenorth> OS X has a totally pointless way to resize disk volumes, based on dragging rectangles
20:32:08 <frosch123> map preview with 10 unlabeled sliders?
20:32:15 <andythenorth> it’s less accurate than typing numbers in, but more fun
20:32:43 <Wolf01> Almost all the graphic partition tools have that
20:32:57 <Alberth> frosch123: do you have "palapeli" ? very interesting way to do a preview
20:33:20 <Alberth> it zooms at the position of the cursor
20:33:58 <frosch123> google gives me toddler puzzles
20:34:14 <Wolf01> I played that one, once
20:34:23 <Alberth> it's an electronic puzzle solver
20:34:36 <andythenorth> something about openttd websites…I just can’t get excited about reworking them :P
20:34:36 <Alberth> or puzzle table, rather
20:35:14 <frosch123> can they handle 5000 pieces and more?
20:35:27 <frosch123> might solve the space issues of my sister
20:35:32 <Alberth> don't know, never tried more than 450 or so
20:35:42 <Wolf01> If it works up to 15k pieces it's the right one for me
20:36:06 <frosch123> she refuses to do puzzles less than 5000 :)
20:36:28 <Alberth> and rigtlhy so, or you'd be done too quickly :p
20:36:29 <frosch123> 6000 is small, 10k is normal, 15k is big
20:36:59 <Alberth> I usually stick to up to 1K, long enough for me
20:37:21 <Alberth> but if you do it every day, I can see you want something bigger
20:37:42 <frosch123> well, 10k takes about 8 months or so
20:38:00 <frosch123> i guess some fun comes from the logistics :)
20:39:03 <Alberth> and searching for the right piece
20:40:22 <frosch123> oh, it's a kde game, i thought it was a webapp
20:40:42 <Wolf01> Meh, Travis CI trying to get me to use it... the only project I wanted to apply CI at is not compatible with Travis...
20:41:52 <andythenorth> website stuff is probably too close to my actual work most days :P
20:42:05 <andythenorth> …how do we deploy our web apps?
20:42:18 <andythenorth> we have a large footprint, how are they pushed to production?
20:42:19 <Wolf01> Direct edit on production
20:42:52 <Wolf01> I was about to kill one of my bosses last time he did that
20:43:37 <andythenorth> we have a CMS with direct edits in production, but that’s different
20:43:41 <frosch123> how do you rotate pieces in palapeli?
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20:44:46 <frosch123> hmm, seems like all tiles are already oriented correctly
20:45:01 <frosch123> doesn't that spoil 3/4 of the problem?
20:46:06 <Alberth> you can configure that
20:46:22 <andythenorth> eh, reasons I don’t want to touch openttd web stuff:
20:46:27 <Wolf01> 4/5, on real ones you have to flip them top-bottom too
20:46:29 <andythenorth> 1. having to get the VM to do any work on it
20:46:32 <Alberth> vertical lines in the train depot ask to add a line at the far left too, doesn't it?
20:46:36 <andythenorth> 2. no reproducible build afaik
20:46:50 <andythenorth> 3. no documented route to production
20:46:54 <andythenorth> 4. too much stuff imho
20:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> strange, i closed my computer case, and the computer shut off...
20:48:03 <Alberth> you found the hidden power button!
20:48:48 <Alberth> andy isn't it just rows of data in a data base?
20:49:19 <Alberth> maybe I am over-simplifying things
20:50:01 <andythenorth> I think that’s a valid way to model it
20:50:04 <andythenorth> but still…which database
20:50:11 <andythenorth> how do I get the data for development?
20:50:15 <frosch123> Alberth: i left it out because there is also usually none on the right
20:50:21 <andythenorth> how do I buildout the right db locally?
20:50:30 <andythenorth> how do I test in dev/staging?
20:50:31 <frosch123> i tried, but it looked weird
20:50:37 <andythenorth> how do I push to production?
20:51:08 <Alberth> I'd just pick sqlite or so, then build something sort of proto
20:51:47 <Alberth> we may need som e path from there though, at some point we'll have to use/configure "real" systems
20:51:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: you do have the bananas vm :)
20:53:28 <Alberth> but you don't need that all immediately
20:55:39 <frosch123> this version of palapeli does not seem to support tile rotation
20:56:11 <frosch123> i consider this lack more than weird
20:56:27 <frosch123> are you sure that game was not written by some ai or alien
20:56:46 <frosch123> i can't imagine someone having done a physical puzzle to leave that out
20:57:11 <Alberth> and with opengl, it's quite trivial to add
20:57:59 <frosch123> also i observed that children at age 2 can easily find the right piece, but have a hard time figureing out the rotation
20:58:05 <Alberth> I find it quite convenient without rotation :p
20:59:12 <Alberth> I have that too with left/right, especially when you look at the map while moving south :)
20:59:54 <andythenorth> so what’s broken about OpenTTD web stuff?
21:00:02 <andythenorth> other than list of bananas features from frosch123
21:01:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: bananas is the most custom thing we have
21:01:25 <frosch123> everything else is kind of standard which you can also get elsewhere
21:02:16 <andythenorth> can we just move it all to commodity services?
21:03:30 <Alberth> what I don't get with the first patch in 6053, why isn't the engine count updated recursively?
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21:06:14 <Alberth> uint GetGroupNumEngines(CompanyID company, GroupID id_g, EngineID id_e) :O it's computed
21:06:52 *** dustinm` has joined #openttd
21:08:39 * andythenorth wonders about commodity bananas :P
21:09:17 <andythenorth> “open source DLC server” got me nothing useful
21:10:06 <Alberth> apache http server :p
21:12:10 <andythenorth> reading json from disk
21:12:34 <andythenorth> jquery onload() puts the json in the DOM
21:13:25 <andythenorth> or we could build something nice, around established libraries, with a continuous deployment pipeline
21:17:48 <Alberth> something simple at least would be useful for prototyping
21:18:30 <andythenorth> these days I tend to disagree
21:18:48 * andythenorth has spent 7 years sanitising a web development environment
21:19:26 <andythenorth> it’s preferable, on balance, to work backwards from ‘how will we deploy this'
21:19:46 <andythenorth> and start with tools that can deploy ‘hello world’
21:19:54 <andythenorth> the prototype *always* becomes production
21:19:57 <Wolf01> andythenorth: as you mentioned jquery, how do I cycle the children nodes? I think I'm a special kind of stupid as I was used to do it daily and now I don't remember even how to make a plugin
21:20:25 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I have NFI, I only use jquery under protest
21:21:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: I tend to prototype with static html, or a chameleon compile from ‘fake’ python objects
21:22:32 <andythenorth> database stuff tends to be the least important aspect of small web apps
21:22:46 <andythenorth> and it’s common now to use an ORM
21:23:00 <andythenorth> so prototyping with an actual db is a bit overkill
21:23:21 <andythenorth> my opinion is not universally supported :P
21:24:02 <andythenorth> in my world, SQLAlchemy won
21:24:14 <andythenorth> backed by postgres, usually
21:24:55 <andythenorth> one selling point of an ORM is that it can be swapped
21:25:31 <andythenorth> so can start with sqlite, and migrate / refactor to postgres etc later
21:27:25 * andythenorth now lost in ORM reviews :P
21:29:48 <_dp_> why not just start with postgres?
21:30:18 <andythenorth> people like sqlite?
21:31:02 <Wolf01> Why not start with a proper software structure which allows to swap components without changing the code?
21:31:39 <Wolf01> Like... do it with symfony
21:32:16 <andythenorth> that is the downside yes
21:32:18 <blocage> I like to be away from web programming
21:32:52 <andythenorth> web programming is like...work
21:33:00 <andythenorth> unlike OpenTTD :P
21:33:24 <Wolf01> It might still be a shitty language, but developers reduced fragmentation and enhanced the sharing of pre-existing code
21:34:06 <andythenorth> actually I am +1 to moving OpenTTD web platform to PHP
21:34:18 <andythenorth> then I won’t feel any guilt about not working on it
21:34:24 <Wolf01> So you only need to make customizations and all the core is well mantained, secure and compatible with every other project
21:35:42 <frosch123> hmm, so what to use for a puzzle?
21:35:50 <frosch123> ottd screenshot or ottd sourcecode?
21:36:57 <Wolf01> Sorting out ottd sourcecode puzzle might help on closing FS tasks
21:37:35 <blocage> there is a web openttd ?
21:38:06 <Alberth> frosch123: website with wallpapers?
21:38:09 <frosch123> yes, someone crosscompiled it via llvm to javascript
21:38:46 <frosch123> playttd.com or something
21:39:17 <frosch123> whenever people port sdl1 to something, they port ottd next
21:39:33 <blocage> Alberth, still funny :)
21:39:44 <_dp_> as the only game that still uses it? :p
21:40:24 <Alberth> as one of the few games that didn't switch to opengl stuff :p
21:41:07 <andythenorth> so what does Bananas actually do?
21:41:18 <andythenorth> it was described to me as ‘horrible’ more or less
21:41:27 <andythenorth> and phenomenally complicated
21:41:33 <andythenorth> which is…unappealing
21:42:05 <Alberth> probably dependency stuff between assets
21:42:16 <Alberth> and messing with version numbering :p
21:44:06 <andythenorth> this is how all idiots fall on their face...
21:44:11 <andythenorth> …but it doesn’t seem very complicated
21:44:19 <andythenorth> there should be a tree of assets
21:44:25 <andythenorth> we need to serve them up when requested
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21:45:35 <andythenorth> _probably_ it can just key on the grfid, without any need for a graph or anything silly
21:45:55 <andythenorth> where is the code? :P
21:46:43 <andythenorth> version is what you need a tree for
21:46:49 <andythenorth> each tree is rooted on a grfid
21:46:55 * andythenorth uses big compsci words :P
21:46:57 <_3298> <Alberth> uint GetGroupNumEngines( -snip- ) :O it's computed <-- it is, except there's one place (in autoreplace) where that's not used. fix is in FX#5978 with a few other tiny autoreplace-related things
21:47:21 <andythenorth> each leaf on the tree probably corresponds to some combination of savegame compatibility / other stuff
21:47:42 <Alberth> sorry _3298, but I am tired, leaving for bed soon
21:48:04 <Alberth> but post in the issue, so I can read it later
21:48:05 <andythenorth> tiring Monday :P
21:48:23 <_3298> okay, will answer in an FS comment then
21:48:25 <andythenorth> Tuesday-is-Monday in UK this week :P
21:48:31 <Alberth> hmm, you should try to sleep every 24 hours, you know? :p
21:49:16 <_3298> just thought i'd address that thing i saw while reading the logs as usual
21:49:37 <Alberth> _3298: yeah, it's good that you note
21:49:59 <Alberth> I just fail to keep that in memory at this time :p
21:52:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: so how do I put point my OpenTTD at bananas-staging.openttd.org? o_O
21:56:01 <frosch123> there is a patch in the vm
21:56:18 <_3298> just one question: what do you mean when you say "what doesn't get changed is current profit"? 'cause in GroupStatistics there's only profit_last_year
21:57:44 <_3298> if you mean the one displayed in the group info panel, that's calculated on the fly (together with occupancy), i.e. nothing i need to touch
21:57:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: it was a straw man question, but you actually patched that far?
21:58:17 <frosch123> i patched everything except the master server
21:58:33 <frosch123> the master server is mysql magic which cannot be directly ported to postgres
21:59:02 <frosch123> like half of it is coded in sql functions with mysql syntax
22:01:28 <frosch123> now idea who is responsible for that :p
22:01:48 <frosch123> possibly there is also cobol from 1960 in there
22:03:43 <andythenorth> you’re not selling me on touching it :(
22:03:56 <andythenorth> can we persuade TB to reimplement it all from scratch? o_O
22:04:01 <andythenorth> he likes that kind of thing
22:04:54 <Alberth> _3298: the point is, you didn't touch it and it works. So why did the things you did touch not work?
22:05:19 <Alberth> and those things that did work, do they use the same mechanism?
22:05:41 <Alberth> engine counts doesn't seem to do that at least
22:06:22 <Alberth> if at all possible, I would prefer a single system for everything, as it makes changing and updating code simpler in the future
22:08:44 <Alberth> having different mechanisms to do the same things for different variables is confusing in all sorts of ways
22:09:18 <Wolf01> So the connection seem stable with just 6db SNR...
22:27:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: ok, later in the week I try and motivate self to look at bananas :)
22:28:40 <frosch123> well, it would already be good if someone wrote something down
22:28:51 <frosch123> instead of restarting the discussion from scratch every 6 months
22:29:19 <andythenorth> we have the dev docs in wiki?
22:29:30 <andythenorth> or do you mean a spec for improvement?
22:29:59 <frosch123> i guess a list of what is bad, what is good, and what is missing
22:30:20 <frosch123> and after that some rough layout
22:30:40 <frosch123> note: "i do not understand the old thing, let's rewrite it" is no solution
22:31:05 <andythenorth> that’s one reason I don’t want to touch any web stuff :P
22:31:14 <frosch123> every beginner seems to default to "let's rewrite it"
22:31:37 <andythenorth> it’s a bad argument to say “I have been doing this for x years”
22:31:50 <andythenorth> I have been doing web dev for close to 20 years
22:32:00 <andythenorth> and the problem is not usually writing new code
22:32:13 <andythenorth> the problem is usually deploying it to production, stably, repeatably
22:32:46 <frosch123> my apprentices always tend to ask "can we rewrite this" when they do not understand this
22:32:59 <andythenorth> it’s like codeless code eh? :)
22:33:06 <frosch123> while the higher-level understanding is actually a pre-requisite for rewriting
22:33:44 <andythenorth> ^ we literally did that and burnt a whole company
22:33:58 <frosch123> well, it's not even that type of rewrite
22:33:58 <andythenorth> despite 3 or 4 people had probably read that article and similar
22:34:31 <frosch123> it's more like: i need to change the caption of this label, but i do not know how the label is set in this source, can i rewrite the whole business logic?
22:35:07 <andythenorth> there is usually framework-de-jour which can be proposed as a solution also
22:35:14 <andythenorth> “this is hard, we need to switch to x"
22:35:18 <frosch123> it's like "i do not understand pyramid, can i rewrite firs with php?"
22:37:00 <andythenorth> how do you deploy upgrades to bananas?
22:37:12 <andythenorth> I have one patch in production, I think r*bidium did it
22:37:21 <andythenorth> it seemed painful
22:37:39 <frosch123> svn up; /etc/init.d/apache restart ?
22:37:46 <frosch123> no idea, only guessing :)
22:38:11 <frosch123> i think the problem was that the web container cannot see the svn container or something
22:38:20 <andythenorth> dangerous to test live eh? :)
22:39:59 <frosch123> that was the idea for the vm
22:40:10 <frosch123> i also tested everything eints related in a vm
22:40:25 <frosch123> even had a ldap setup for that
22:40:32 <frosch123> and that was a pita
22:42:20 <frosch123> albert always tested locally
22:42:28 <frosch123> but i consider a vm actually easier
22:42:32 <frosch123> you have the real environment
22:42:45 <frosch123> and with ssh + sshfs, working on it is the same as locally
22:43:11 <andythenorth> I never worked on vms
22:43:16 <andythenorth> often proposed, never implemented
22:43:27 <andythenorth> also docker proposed often
22:43:48 <frosch123> i am learning docker currently
22:43:58 <frosch123> since tb gave me those scripts
22:44:12 <andythenorth> docker is moderately more interesting to me
22:44:27 <andythenorth> it’s hard to be interested in the web openttd
22:44:42 <andythenorth> seems like nothing new to learn, and a half-assed environment to fight against :)
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22:45:07 <andythenorth> usually I learn a lot from openttd, take it back to work context
22:45:10 <frosch123> anyway, i have 60gib of vm images on my disk
22:45:24 <andythenorth> I might need to d/l them again, I had to migrate laptops
22:45:31 <frosch123> i always use vm to test stuff instead of messing up the host system :)
22:46:53 <frosch123> docker would take less space
22:47:07 <frosch123> but is restricted to same kernel
22:47:22 <frosch123> which is find for me, but maybe not for you
22:47:31 <frosch123> i.e. no linux docker on osx
22:47:42 <frosch123> no win docker on linux
22:47:57 <andythenorth> run docker in virtualbox in a VM :P
22:48:06 <andythenorth> for really sucky performance, and extra networking hassle
22:48:20 <frosch123> i do not install docker on my main machine just for playing
22:48:24 <frosch123> i have docker in a vm
22:48:32 <andythenorth> docker seems like FreeBSD jails
22:48:37 <frosch123> and yes, to run win coker on linux you need a windows vm
22:48:58 <andythenorth> I never looked further into docker, except for reading some satire about naive JS developers who think it provides container security
22:49:04 <frosch123> docker is chroot with the chroot-contents versioned in git or something
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22:49:26 <frosch123> like when building the container, every step is stored in some repository
22:49:29 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01
22:49:43 <andythenorth> so it’s repeatable
22:49:44 <frosch123> so you can replace some change in the middle and it can rebuild the rest from some intermediate state
22:50:10 <frosch123> like as if your whole vm data is stored in a vcs
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22:50:26 <frosch123> you install some new thingie, and rollback in the vcs
22:50:43 <frosch123> or you rebase stuff etc :p
22:51:13 <frosch123> anyway, that's my impression after a few hours looing into it
22:51:17 <frosch123> may be totally off :p
22:51:25 <andythenorth> how do we manage production machines? is it puppet or ansible or something?
22:51:32 <andythenorth> is that a TB black art?
22:51:45 <frosch123> eints is setup with ansible
22:51:53 <frosch123> the rest is setup with whatever was hip at the time
22:52:10 <frosch123> like the masterserver is from a php/mysql/perl age
22:53:05 <frosch123> i believe eints is the only thing setup via ansible
22:53:30 <frosch123> the new compile farm is supposed to use docker
22:53:33 <frosch123> the old one does not
22:53:53 <frosch123> i believe the old one has a dozen linux vms, all manually setup
22:54:11 <andythenorth> we adopted ansible at work, and things got better
22:54:30 <andythenorth> we also built a continuous deployment tool of our own
22:54:44 <frosch123> no idea, i never used it, i only hear admins talking about it
22:55:06 <andythenorth> same, although I read the docs when we adopted it, kind of my job :P
22:55:09 <frosch123> i then match what admins at work talk abuot with what tb or rb ramble about
22:55:22 <frosch123> and then derive how state-of-the-art the stuff at work may be
22:58:37 <andythenorth> continuous deployment is, simplifying, a scheduled cron job that looks for new tags, and upgrades the app if it finds one
22:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so, you mean autoupdate
22:59:11 <andythenorth> ours can distinguish RC tags for staging from production tags for live
22:59:46 <andythenorth> it has to know how to manaage supervisord to stop, restart processes in right order
22:59:56 <andythenorth> and how to run any upgrade steps for databases etc
23:00:16 <frosch123> i hope you are not suggesting automatic deployment for the ottd website, so we are really fast when there is a change very few years :p
23:00:17 <andythenorth> it also has rules to not make upgrades in certain time windows, e.g .weekends
23:00:31 <andythenorth> website could be done with static html
23:00:38 <andythenorth> just cut out any framework crap :P
23:01:06 <andythenorth> continuous deployment encourages small, frequent releases by removing pain of going to production :)
23:01:12 <frosch123> says the firs author :p
23:01:14 <LordAro> *once* you get it setup
23:01:19 <LordAro> takes a bit of time to get to that point
23:01:30 <andythenorth> FIRS nearly has continuous deploy :)
23:01:42 <andythenorth> if I could teach bundles about musa :P
23:01:50 <frosch123> i was refering to static html and frameworks :)
23:02:05 <andythenorth> no framework in FIRS :)
23:02:10 <frosch123> we have multiple newgrf and gs with "make bananas"
23:02:30 <frosch123> i am sure you can also python-generate some of it
23:03:10 <andythenorth> I could even automate the forum post, if I gave it my creds :P
23:03:12 <andythenorth> might not do that
23:03:24 <frosch123> LordAro: i guessed the correct power of two to setup the harddisk in my docker vm
23:03:30 <frosch123> i am proud of that :p
23:03:46 <frosch123> set hdd to 16gib, 11 were used
23:04:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: all the "make bananas" require interactive username and password :)
23:04:22 <LordAro> docker is not lightweight
23:04:32 <LordAro> might be interesting to look into lxc/lxd containers
23:04:39 <LordAro> they're only pure linux though
23:04:47 <frosch123> LordAro: well, i just ran tb's stuff unmodified, so it setup 6 debian and 8 ubuntus or something
23:05:55 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
23:06:26 <frosch123> i could have commented them out, if i cared :)
23:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i found a bunch of old computers at work, which might be athlon 64 (single or dual core)
23:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> think i could do anything useful with those?
23:09:50 <frosch123> depend on their case
23:09:58 <frosch123> maybe you can sit on them
23:11:04 <frosch123> also metal stuff is good for emp protection
23:11:24 <frosch123> you know, your neighbors with those parabolic antennas
23:11:47 <frosch123> you never know when they only listen, or when they shoot
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23:16:36 <planetmaker> frosch123, andy: we considered once to actually implement a auto-deployment / upload to bananas on devzone
23:16:41 <planetmaker> But decided against that...
23:16:56 <planetmaker> for whatever reason. Probably "people would want to check their upload"
23:17:30 <planetmaker> the idea was that people allow via musa a devzone account to update their stuff as well
23:18:34 <planetmaker> it likely is easy to setup... if there's a market and use for that... not sure
23:19:03 <planetmaker> I guess it would need more automatic project generation / setup for that to be a thing
23:19:21 <planetmaker> or did move things / repos already to github anyway?
23:20:02 <frosch123> andy and xuusr are the only active projects :)
23:20:34 <frosch123> grfauthors are not tech-safe, so are unlikely to move to github
23:23:03 <frosch123> it's more likely that no-vcs becomes more popular with them
23:27:37 <planetmaker> yeah, I guess so...
23:27:50 <planetmaker> it always was and probably always will
23:28:30 <planetmaker> until there's a complete web-frontend to making / building NewGRFs where they can just upload their graphics files, edit some text file and have the system generate the grf from taht
23:28:39 <planetmaker> that might make them use it - without noticing
23:31:58 <frosch123> though andy transitioned to fs-moderator instead of working on grf :p
23:36:55 <LordAro> frosch123: help i'm looking at what's been deprecated and removed from django over the last 7 years
23:37:26 <frosch123> do you have the vm?
23:37:40 <frosch123> it updated it to django as of 2011/12 at least
23:39:01 <frosch123> in other words, wrt. django the vm is newer than the life site
23:39:37 <LordAro> probably needs large amounts of rewriting regardless
23:39:56 <frosch123> well, tbh i would focus on bananas
23:40:01 <frosch123> it does not need to be django
23:40:07 <frosch123> it can be whatever, like eints
23:40:32 <frosch123> we only use django for the news items i guess :p
23:41:56 <LordAro> ooh, python with tabs
23:42:23 <frosch123> tabs are for smart people :p
23:42:54 <frosch123> python punished people who do not know whitespace :)
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