IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-24
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04:11:09 <SimYouLater> Anyone seen my post in the "What is OpenTTD today?" topic? I didn
04:11:34 <SimYouLater> I didn't see it the day after I posted and thought the topic was deleted.
04:12:13 <SimYouLater> So I only just came across it by accident in a search for an unrelated keyword.
04:13:01 <SimYouLater> Aside from having replied to practically every topic all at once, I'm not up to date on anything that may have happened here in IRC since.
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04:40:30 <SimYouLater> Is anyone able to see my replies? Am I just not seeing yours? Can someone PM me if you see this?
04:47:53 <ST2> SimYouLater: I think many people read it - maybe some still thinking on it, or have some crazy ideas that devs won't go there
04:48:04 <ST2> I think I'm on that class
04:48:23 <ST2> but I read it all, not an opinion formed, yet
04:48:49 <SimYouLater> I see. Thanks for responding, I was starting to think I was having bugs with the IRC.
04:49:11 <ST2> "What is OpenTTD today" is very related to what was couple years ago and what direction to take
04:49:59 <ST2> SimYouLater, maybe you dnt know mw, but I'm admin on BTPro - and we have 27 OpenTTD servers
04:50:02 <SimYouLater> I should have been more direct in the OP. The part about what happened two years ago was all rhetorical. Hence the name of the topic.
04:51:45 <ST2> SimYouLater: you need to understand that OpenTTD won't have a boom of players or popularity
04:52:04 <SimYouLater> At a point in the OP I did say that anything about that wasn't the point. That it was more about things feeling surprisingly dead, much more like the linked site, than most places I frequent.
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04:52:31 <ST2> we have some players that play, religiously, on every server
04:52:53 <ST2> but that's because they like our settings, goal servers, or whatever
04:53:42 <ST2> but, like me, that play now Settlers 2, OpenTTD is a mood thing
04:53:47 <SimYouLater> If there's no way that players will increase, I can live with that. It's more about the community having stalled, which fortunately is what everyone eventually ended up talking about in a roundabout way.
04:54:00 <Flygon> It's hard to have a boom of players when OpenTTD hit saturation point over a decade ago. :P
04:54:11 <SimYouLater> As it turns out, it's not the community that's stalled.
04:54:21 <Flygon> It just means there's a fucktonne of active players, and we hardly notice anymore, because there's not much more room to grow. :3
04:54:29 <ST2> we (BTPro) have a stable base of players
04:54:41 <SimYouLater> Just a communication issue with the part most important, the trunk development.
04:55:08 <ST2> ofc, many of the people playing it's because of testing online game or to see what this "game"
04:56:10 <ST2> the fact that's opensource, and everyone can create an online server - it's good and bad
04:56:16 <SimYouLater> Question unrelated to that. I've had trouble setting up a multiplayer game in any way, shape or form for use by myself and a friend. For whatever reason I can't get the server in public view.
04:56:42 <ST2> bad: people join, play and get blocked or whatever and no admins
04:56:46 <SimYouLater> Sorry, hard to read while typing long replies.
04:57:35 <ST2> SimYouLater: same here, while making Viking won on the other screen xD
04:58:20 <ST2> SimYouLater: server on your computer or..?!
04:58:45 <ST2> maybe need to redirect ports on router or something
04:58:48 <SimYouLater> I get what you're saying about the open source and the community being fine. I can tell it's mostly some animosity between the majority and the devs which seems to have been talked about and resolved.
04:58:57 <SimYouLater> For the server...
04:59:19 <ST2> hint: use shorter sentences
04:59:30 <ST2> easier to read (faster, at least)
04:59:47 <SimYouLater> the idea is to have a dedicated server running off of my desktop. This would be accessed by myself, my friend and anyone we give the password to.
05:00:05 <SimYouLater> Ah. Sorter posts it is then.
05:00:33 <ST2> and must be redirected to your computer on the Router
05:01:34 <ST2> depends on the lexic or router used ^^
05:05:12 <SimYouLater> I'm having to relearn all the server setup... The last time I tried was months ago...
05:05:46 <SimYouLater> I know there are two types of firewalls, firstly.
05:05:56 <ST2> my home "old" server is now on the storage
05:06:00 <SimYouLater> How can I tell if I have a software firewall?
05:06:14 <ST2> since we have 2 rented servers... no need to a home one
05:06:40 <ST2> [04:05:58] <SimYouLater> How can I tell if I have a software firewall? <<-- only you can know that :P
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05:11:50 <SimYouLater> lost network connection.
05:12:13 <SimYouLater> So, likely programs I have and can think of...
05:12:22 <SimYouLater> ...for a firewall...
05:12:35 <SimYouLater> Avast, Malwarebytes, and Windows 10 itself.
05:15:14 <SimYouLater> Oh, and the internet loss wasn't the OS. I had to unplug it to try and change the IP address my computer already had assigned in the router.
05:15:27 <SimYouLater> Still working on getting that fixed.
05:16:31 <ST2> if it helps, try to use to DDNS services - your IP can change - but updates
05:16:57 <SimYouLater> Look, if you're going to say "manage my computer better" because you're exhasperated at something I may or may not have done, explain because I'm not clueless.
05:18:02 <ST2> by "manage my computer better" I mean't you must know what you have installed and what it does
05:18:04 <SimYouLater> Just checked Dynamic DNS in the router. It's off.
05:19:09 <SimYouLater> I know Avast can have a firewall. I know Malwarebytes might. I know Windows 10 can. I know I don't have anything else that would deal with firewalls except my router.
05:20:31 <SimYouLater> Okay, now you're losing me. I've seen no-ip before, but...
05:21:25 <ST2> anyway, if you provide your IP to your friends and not being seen - it's not passing by your router
05:22:18 <ST2> 3979 and so on (talking by heart)
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05:22:52 <SimYouLater> It's not with the IP address not being seen. I make it publicly viewable and it doesn't show up. While right now it's not set up, I had the port forwarding and everything ready, and had that issue.
05:23:40 <ST2> so, any firewall SW preventing it?
05:24:01 <SimYouLater> That's why I'm having to set it up again.
05:26:28 <SimYouLater> Okay, well first I have one issue. One that's nrelated. My computer was connected to 192.168.1."A" in the DHCP reservation. However the label was as a different computer so I had to remove it because I couldn't change the name and re-add it...
05:26:59 <SimYouLater> After removing it, it says it can't add it because 192.168.1."A" is in use.
05:27:30 <SimYouLater> So I tried unlugging my internet to disconnect that.
05:27:50 <SimYouLater> After plugging the cord back into the rear of my tower, no change.
05:28:11 <ST2> it's always internal network addresses
05:28:32 <SimYouLater> So I assign the DHCP reservation under 192.168.1."B" and it still hasn't changed.
05:28:44 <SimYouLater> Oh. Let me check..
05:29:25 <ST2> 192.168.*.* are internal network addresses
05:29:35 <SimYouLater> The computer is already using auto Ip.... let's try changing it...
05:29:38 <ST2> you can see that on router
05:30:20 <SimYouLater> Yeah. Router still says it's under 192.18.1."A" and even the name that was incorrect is still there.
05:30:42 <SimYouLater> The MAC Address is the same as this computer.
05:31:08 <SimYouLater> The computer it was named as is no longer connected to the network. Hasn't been for weeks.
05:32:01 <SimYouLater> For external IP? 2001:569:f8c4:b800:28a4:29e3:c478:1faa
05:32:30 <ST2> ok, the IP you need to open your Router to accept connections
05:32:46 <ST2> and forward to your internal network IP
05:32:48 <SimYouLater> First I want to get the DHCP reservation fixed.
05:33:16 <ST2> that may depend on on your ISP
05:33:32 <SimYouLater> i can't assign this PC as 192.168.1."A" even though it already had that IP, is still connected as it, but with the wrong name...
05:34:05 <SimYouLater> The name will get changed to match that of this computer, I know that.
05:34:08 <ST2> acceptable addresses are: 192.168.1.1 to 192.168.1.254
05:34:26 <ST2> but maybe one is already used by your router
05:34:44 <ST2> see the range your router gives to network
05:34:54 <SimYouLater> It just won't let me "unpair" this PC from 192.168.1."A. so that I can repair it.
05:35:12 <ST2> stop saying 192.168.1."A"
05:35:18 <SimYouLater> It needs to have 192.168.1."B" temporarily...
05:35:50 <SimYouLater> 192.168.1.10 is taken up by this PC. I need it as any other IP for a few seconds.
05:36:05 <SimYouLater> Then back to 192.168.1.10
05:36:11 <ST2> so... what's the Router network IP?
05:36:35 <ST2> and, if it's a router, what's the IP's he allows on the network?
05:36:37 <SimYouLater> Hold on. Said he wrong hing.
05:36:54 <SimYouLater> 192.168.1.10 is taken up by this PC. I need it as any other IP for a few seconds...
05:37:21 <SimYouLater> because it won't let me give DHCP reservation to 192.168.1.10 because it's in use.
05:37:48 <ST2> no answers... I can't help you :S
05:38:11 <SimYouLater> I don't know the right words, butI need to "unpair" this PC from 192.168.1.10 and even though I've unplugged it temporarily...
05:38:26 <SimYouLater> The IP still persists.
05:38:33 <ST2> SimYouLater, read above, please
05:38:36 <Sylf> Sim, I think you really need to answer those 2 questions
05:38:55 <SimYouLater> The router network IP is 192.18.1.254
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05:39:27 <ST2> ok, and, somewhere on Router SW it says the range allowed for the network
05:40:10 <ST2> but that, only you can see ^^
05:40:13 <SimYouLater> 192.168.1.2 to 192.168.1.253
05:40:50 <ST2> what's your computer, now, internal IP?
05:41:14 <SimYouLater> It's still 192.168.1.10
05:41:36 <ST2> ok, so, forward the OpenTTD ports to that address
05:41:49 <SimYouLater> Which I have to change temporarily to re-add it as 192.168.1.10 in DHCP reservation.
05:43:16 <SimYouLater> Right now I'm asking for help with the DHCP reservation. I'll get to the ports after.
05:43:48 <Sylf> why do you need the reservation?
05:43:53 <ST2> I had no issues with W10, W7 and Debian linux - it's all on redirecting ports on router
05:44:10 <Sylf> can you reconfigure DHCP range from *.1.30 to *.1.200 or something
05:44:18 <Sylf> then configure the server to a fixed IP?
05:44:48 <Sylf> then once you have a fixed IP configured, forward the port to that IP, and you have a working server.
05:44:48 <SimYouLater> Because that's how I have static IPs. Or I could do it within the computer itself if that's a better way. But right now I need to ensure it will keep 192.1681.10 if it turns off for a while.
05:44:53 <ST2> I even suggested a DDNS - solves many things xD
05:45:26 <ST2> with a DDNS, the rest is internal Router settings
05:45:39 <SimYouLater> I'd rather fix the setup I had. If it doesn't work, then I'll look into DDNS.
05:46:02 <Sylf> DDNS is outside of the lan, isn't it?
05:46:20 <ST2> but because I have Din IP
05:46:20 <Sylf> so it has nothing to do with lan DHCP issues
05:46:45 <SimYouLater> Am I using the wrong sense of "DDNS"? The setting in my router that most closely matches...
05:46:50 <ST2> if issues on lan, DDNS won't help, that's a sur ^^
05:47:19 <Sylf> DDNS makes it easier for players to find your external IP
05:47:39 <Sylf> Nothing to do with the issue with fixing the server to 192.168.1.10
05:47:54 <Sylf> so let's leave DDNS out of the discussion for now
05:48:36 <Sylf> I don't know how your router does DHCP... with mine, I can assign a specific MAC address to a specific IP.
05:48:46 <ST2> Sylf: and I'm listening the right music now ^^
05:48:50 * ST2 Music: (Playing) Nirvana - You Know You're Right (XI Rock - Modern and Alternative Rock) 208:43/00:00
05:48:56 <SimYouLater> Same here. The issue is...
05:49:32 <SimYouLater> 1. My router had the DHCP reservation under the name of my old phone.
05:49:43 <SimYouLater> 2. I couldn't rename it.
05:49:56 <SimYouLater> 3. To change that, I had to re-add my PC.
05:50:35 <SimYouLater> 4. After removing it, my router won't accept the mac address of my pc under 192.168.1.10 because its "already in use".
05:50:41 <Sylf> Name has nothing to do with port forwarding
05:50:51 <SimYouLater> some random string of numbers and letters.
05:50:58 <SimYouLater> Android does that.
05:51:17 <Sylf> What IP are you trying to use for the server?
05:51:41 <SimYouLater> 192.168.1.10 internal.The external is the IPv6 above...
05:51:58 <ST2> I'm connected with 2 Android phones on my network... and never saw it ^^
05:52:26 <ST2> check your PC - has a fixes network IP od dynamic?
05:52:29 <Sylf> And what IP is reserved on the router, to which MAC?
05:53:11 <Sylf> I really don't care about names.
05:53:27 <SimYouLater> > I'm connected with 2 Android phones on my network... and never saw it ^^
05:53:36 <SimYouLater> I was answering ST2
05:54:06 <ST2> for the Router... shouldn't matter the device connecting
05:54:27 <SimYouLater> PC says "Obtain an IP address automatically"
05:54:53 <Sylf> what IP is reserved on the router, to which MAC?
05:55:03 <ST2> (betting it works because you're still here ^^)
05:55:52 <SimYouLater> 192.168.1.10 is reserved to nothing. It's still connected to my PC: 4C-CC-6A-0A-B9-F2
05:56:21 <ST2> ok, forward port 3979 to that addresses
05:56:23 <Sylf> Also, do you really need to use 192.168.1.10? Can you be happy with 192.168.1.20? If yes, reserve that IP to MAC 4C-CC-6A-0A-B9-F2
05:56:51 <Sylf> Or, do that once, renew the DHCP lease, then you should have 192.168.1.20 for your PC.
05:57:09 <SimYouLater> I already reserved it tgo 192.168.1.2 to try and change it even if only temporarily. It still says... Connected 192.168.1.10 Full-Duplex
05:57:19 <ST2> Sylf know my feeling - I always likje to wake up on odd numbers so, instead of 6:30 I make 11:32
05:57:21 <Sylf> If you really want to, you can change the IP reservation setting back to use 192.168.1.10 when you're using 192.168.1.20
05:57:30 <ST2> and I wake up much better xD
05:58:19 <SimYouLater> @Sylf I know. It's not at ...1.20 in the reservation but it is at ...1.2
05:58:20 <Sylf> Have you disconnected and reconnected after you made the change?
05:59:52 <ST2> well, a brb, wnd not disconnecting
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06:00:20 <SimYouLater_> Now it's changed to ...1.2
06:00:52 <SimYouLater_> brb then since that's fauirly easy to fix in the preferred way now that I know how.
06:00:53 <Sylf> so, it's the classic case of IT crowd
06:01:01 <Sylf> "Have you turned it off and on again?"
06:01:40 <ST2> fact is that on Linux isn't needed
06:02:02 <ST2> but, as W10 user... I support it :=
06:02:10 <Sylf> you still need to redo the connection... you can't renew the IP without disconnect
06:03:01 <SimYouLater_> Strange, the name is still the random string, and another Windows 10 PC as well as this one at some point in the past aren't doing that but showing the computer's system name
06:04:02 <SimYouLater_> Which is hy I haven't disconnected again yet.
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06:04:19 <ST2> [05:00:01] <Sylf> there's the disconnect
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06:04:37 <ST2> thank you Sylf for helping :)
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06:04:58 <SimYouLater> I don't know what happened, but I didn't unplug yet.
06:05:12 <SimYouLater> and internet was up the whole time.
06:05:24 <SimYouLater> IRC just dropped me for some reason.
06:05:44 <ST2> you changed settings... normally that happens ^^
06:06:15 <SimYouLater> Except I haven't changed settings in the router since I last reconnected
06:06:27 <SimYouLater> The DHCP is still in 192.168.1.2
06:06:40 <SimYouLater> Not there either.
06:07:19 <ST2> ok, let me write a letter to pope Francis for another miracle xD
06:07:37 <SimYouLater> Seriosuly, no changes to my router's or pc's settings despite saying I would.
06:07:46 <SimYouLater> Whatever, I'm connected now.
06:08:03 <ST2> so, you know your network IP and your external one
06:08:45 <ST2> on the router, forward the ports to your computer (in and out, TCP and UDP)
06:08:49 <SimYouLater> The problem is that the random string letter-number name is still there. A borrowed family member's Windows 10 Home tablet is showing he right name, and this PC has in th past.
06:09:11 <ST2> and stated, standard are 3979 - unless you change your cfg files
06:09:37 <SimYouLater> Except now the name is under 192.168.1.2
06:09:59 <ST2> do not mess up DNS with WINS
06:10:58 <SimYouLater> I think I might have to remove the DHCP and then restart the PC. I've got a Razer driver install telling me to do it anyway... let me try that./
06:11:35 <SimYouLater> > do not mess up DNS with WINS
06:12:00 <SimYouLater> As in, don't confuse DNS with Windows 10?
06:12:11 <SimYouLater> Or don't use "wins" to modify DNS?
06:12:53 <ST2> but you need to understand WINS to know how DNS works
06:13:21 <ST2> one is the way back of the other, lets put it on short words xD
06:13:32 <SimYouLater> I'm not touching WINS, don't worry. Right now I'm just trying to make my router's setting more organized.
06:15:26 <SimYouLater> By name, I mean that the name it gives for my PC was the old phone's "name". For a Winsdows 10 Tablet that was connected, it has the name of the PC in that PC's system settings: CLARA-1957
06:16:16 <ST2> SimYouLater: it doesn't matter: your Router controls it
06:16:36 <ST2> show to your Router who has the "balls" xD
06:16:41 <SimYouLater> And in the past my desktop has shown the system name instead of the random string which I at least recognize the first two letter-nmbers as the one my phone had.
06:17:59 <SimYouLater> If it was working properly, it would say PCDESK-1991.
06:18:59 <SimYouLater> I'm going to try the restart of my PC, that might work.
06:19:04 <ST2> well, on there... only can say ^^
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08:37:54 <andythenorth> how’s the game crem?
08:44:05 <crem> Well, it goes pretty well. :)
08:44:23 <crem> Do you usually build two-track railway from the beginning?
08:44:44 <andythenorth> it’s a cheaper start with1 track
08:44:53 <andythenorth> also I like to mess up my network deliberately
08:45:08 <andythenorth> keeps the mid-game more interesting, fixing my early mess
08:45:26 <andythenorth> V453000 such 5am again :(
08:45:49 <crem> But more than one train per track, right?
08:46:23 <crem> I don't mess anything deliberately, but the network soon starts to be a mess anyway.
08:55:46 <andythenorth> more than one train per track, with passing loops
08:57:31 <V453000> I finally went to sleep at 1
08:59:38 <andythenorth> 7 hours sleep is way too much
08:59:57 <V453000> also found some sick music I listened to 10 years ago, having a good morning
09:00:20 <andythenorth> I worked till 10pm, pointlessly read intenet until 11pm, got woke up by wife before 5am
09:01:38 <V453000> Fear Factory, some good industrial metal
09:02:42 <V453000> it's a nice mix of good quality and just straight forward heavy not giving a fuck mess ... and I feel like I haven'
09:02:49 <V453000> t heard anything like that recently made
09:03:27 <V453000> even their newer albums are usually trying to be political and give a message and sometimes when you just overdo it, it is really weird in heavy music to me
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09:09:04 <andythenorth> such industrial metal eh
09:11:26 <V453000> they're super old and their style changed quite a lot so it's hard to randomly youtube it :D
09:13:35 <V453000> yeah this is the super old stuff, can't say I like that much
09:13:58 <V453000> it's not bad, I just prefer the newer things
09:15:45 <V453000> hm shit now I realize I need to copy the old things as well
09:17:57 <andythenorth> maybe it’s a Nine Inch Nails day here
09:20:12 <andythenorth> Nine Inch Nails is like the second most ultimate form of pop music
09:20:59 <V453000> yeah I know NIN, I heard the whole discography about few times but I didn't really like it that much
09:21:49 <andythenorth> it was maybe a moment-in-time thing
09:22:21 <andythenorth> and playing LAN Doom in the dark hours of the night
09:27:45 <V453000> omfg discovered new interesting way how to make a tree so it's less minecraft :D
09:30:54 * andythenorth having a newgrf break
09:32:06 <V453000> basically green shapes (bricks) held by some branches
09:32:14 <V453000> instead of branch structure going inside
09:32:16 <andythenorth> looks like a hug
09:33:05 <V453000> yeah don't want to go full lego ;P
09:33:16 <V453000> I feel like taking lego and minecraft references is kind of lame
09:33:42 <andythenorth> I use it to see shapes though
09:33:56 <andythenorth> reduces realism to simple forms and shit
09:34:32 * andythenorth back to politics
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09:38:00 <V453000> ... that's one of their electro grindcore whatever experiments XD
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09:42:38 <andythenorth> ha skulls and shit
09:43:12 <andythenorth> they have definitely got some Depeche Mode in their CD collection
09:43:14 <V453000> 80s from the first second I Feel like
09:43:43 <V453000> note that I was born in 1990 so I don't know fuck about 80s, I am just a cool kid listening to 'that old music' now
09:44:20 <V453000> yeah I should go take shower and get back to making treehugs
09:44:42 <andythenorth> that LZRHWK song is pretty much Miami Vice theme :D
09:45:00 <andythenorth> gets in way of work and internet
09:45:17 <V453000> mainly the latter is obviously critically important
09:45:41 <V453000> ok, work after, I promis
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09:57:43 <Rokstap> Good day, I would like to know how to drive cheat codes just I play through the phone ПЕРЕВЕСТИ
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10:09:47 <crem> what.. Release of 'Cook Serve Delicious 2' is delayed :( It should have been released today!
10:28:12 <andythenorth> V453000: this LZRHWK album has now gone full on Kraftwerk :o
10:30:26 <andythenorth> V453000: super geometries
10:30:37 <Wolf01> NotTrees would be cool
10:31:31 <Wolf01> Tell the game at which height a tree could be built, which terrain, remove logic from game
10:32:39 <andythenorth> also no need for multiple tree building algorithms
10:32:48 <andythenorth> move the algorithm to script
10:32:59 <andythenorth> one less combinatorial thing
10:33:02 <V453000> sure and support for 64 tree growth stages so there isn't so little sprites for trees
10:33:21 <V453000> an control over framerate of each tree
10:33:34 <andythenorth> except such map space
10:33:37 <andythenorth> hey look a peter1138
10:33:43 <Wolf01> Tree changes with season? O_O
10:34:41 <peter1138> i put skull & shark on first
10:35:00 <andythenorth> oh now it’s gone Daft Punk
10:35:02 <V453000> tree changes with local slug mood based on annual slug referendum at local steel mills?
10:35:11 <andythenorth> DP isn’t 1980s :P
10:35:21 <Wolf01> andythenorth: prepare a spec?
10:35:22 <andythenorth> V453000: way too much politics
10:35:45 <andythenorth> Wolf01: what does current tree algorithm do?
10:35:56 <andythenorth> is it a tile loop, visited periodically?
10:36:18 <andythenorth> any spec will have to get through an inevitable “is this just newobjects” step :P
10:36:22 <andythenorth> shall we do it now?
10:36:28 <Wolf01> Checks for other trees, plants new trees semi-random-based
10:36:43 <andythenorth> is NoTrees just an extension of NewObjects?
10:37:18 <Wolf01> But trees have far more impact than standard objects, so no
10:37:27 <andythenorth> we don’t need to be planting objects all over the map randomly
10:40:10 <Celestar> hm .. it's been a while since a fetched the repo O-o
10:40:46 <peter1138> not much changed i bet
10:41:06 <Celestar> it hasn't, peter1138?
10:41:45 <andythenorth> so how do pull requests work then? o_O
10:42:30 <peter1138> someone says "pull pls"
10:43:45 <Celestar> it still is on svn :P
10:46:52 <V453000> andythenorth: apparently the best way to keep developers around is so start closing a shitload of FS tickets so everyone starts caring again about their ancient glorious ideas XD
10:47:08 <andythenorth> makes it seem like shit is happening eh?
10:47:27 <andythenorth> nobody wants to wade through 840 things that are badly categorised, badly titled
10:47:34 <V453000> just reopen the tickets in 2 months and then go for another round
10:47:44 <andythenorth> just close 200 of the 436 remaining
10:47:50 <andythenorth> see who comes here to complain
10:47:56 <andythenorth> have a chat with them
10:49:24 <andythenorth> there’s even a github remote or something
10:49:56 <andythenorth> dunno how the github syncs, if it’s just one way
10:50:06 <andythenorth> bit limiting for pull requests eh?
10:50:14 <Celestar> Visual SourceWhatCrap?
10:50:28 <crem> For personal repository, it's proper two-way sync.
10:50:46 <Wolf01> Oh god... SimYouLater answered to "what is ottd today?"
10:51:24 <andythenorth> I asked if it can be locked
10:51:28 <Celestar> I cannot possibly believe that Microsoft is able to produce a useful RCS.
10:51:39 <Wolf01> I don't think I want to read it either
10:51:46 <andythenorth> it’s worth reading, but not replying
10:52:03 <andythenorth> it contains so much wrong, that I think there are mental health issues of some kind
10:52:10 <andythenorth> or something like that
10:52:46 <andythenorth> I thought of at least 10 replies so far, but they all seem like bullying or showboating
10:53:08 <Wolf01> If only we had a quote system or even hyperlinks to be able to get the question he answered...
10:53:47 <andythenorth> I also had some preliminary PM previews of that post
10:53:48 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> it contains so much wrong, that I think there are mental health issues of some kind <- yes, he said that already in NRT topic
10:54:00 <andythenorth> I got a personal edition sent directly
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10:56:00 <Wolf01> Ok, since he replied for every post, I could just put 2 browser windows side by side
10:56:12 <V453000> well I better go to work, but geometreehugs is a lot of fun
10:56:18 <andythenorth> V453000 same here
10:56:30 <andythenorth> you should keep that name btw
10:57:22 <andythenorth> bug count increased :(
10:58:09 <V453000> also I plan to go wild with toyland trees
10:58:20 <V453000> I should probably go. :D
11:06:07 <peter1138> hmm, over compression is getting to me on that skull & shark album
11:11:09 <LordAro> peter1138: you know bikes
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11:41:48 <LordAro> peter1138: want a road bike. ~£800. any thoughts?
11:43:05 <Alkel_U3> Speaking of bikes, does anyone know about a simple front hub with 36 holes and 74mm dropout? I can't find any and fear I'll have to replace the whole fork :/
11:44:01 <peter1138> LordAro, depends what it'll be for
11:44:36 <peter1138> 36 holes on the front? that's a lot
11:45:18 <LordAro> peter1138: largely commuting, but the occasional "event" type thing (hopefully with increasing frequency)
11:45:21 <crem> bikes? Are there bikes in openttd? For transport of pizza it's good.
11:47:31 <Alkel_U3> yeah, maybe I'll try to stick with 28h for now but with the amount of potholes I meet I'd perhaps be happiest with replacing the front wheel for a rounded stone slab
11:49:15 <Alkel_U3> I'd definitely need a larger fork for that :D
11:50:08 <LordAro> peter1138: i've been looking at Whyte & PlanetX
11:54:23 <peter1138> planetx london road is alright
11:54:30 <peter1138> bit over 800 though
11:55:05 <peter1138> ribble have a few sub £800 builds
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12:00:14 <peter1138> they let you choose bits as well
12:11:03 <Alkel_U3> *sigh* there are no double-walled 406-19 28h rims either, apparently
12:11:57 <Alkel_U3> so the hubs that would fit into my forks are only up to 28h but the rims that I like are mostly 36h
12:16:28 <Alkel_U3> I would sum it up like that, yes
12:17:18 <peter1138> sounds and looks nasty
12:18:29 <Alkel_U3> I'd rather go with a new fork than that :-)
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12:21:22 <Alkel_U3> I want the wheel to not go aut of true easily and this doesn't look that well balanced (but I've already considered this option, too :-) )
12:22:47 <peter1138> i guess you have a specific rim in mind though
12:25:12 <Alkel_U3> since I'm not able to find any combination of what I ideally want this is probably the best I've seen so far, so thanks
12:25:38 <peter1138> if you go back to the category there's a few others there
12:26:37 <peter1138> also one with *7* holes
12:29:46 <Alkel_U3> that wold get decimated quickly. MTBs are a suitable and not very impractical type of bike in Prague :-)
12:34:01 <peter1138> also search ebay for dahon wheel 36 spoke
12:36:45 <Alkel_U3> Good idea, I forgot to check prebuilt wheels
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13:07:22 <_dp_> might not be a bad idea to turn some magic staffs back into trees actually xD
13:12:53 <andythenorth> maybe I can close 50 more FS tasks, based on date opened
13:37:35 <andythenorth> does it not completely spank performance?
13:37:48 * andythenorth would expect serious FAIL with that patch
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13:40:05 <_dp_> andythenorth, isn't it the same as dragging map window to full screen size?
13:40:12 <_dp_> andythenorth, performance-wise
13:40:50 <andythenorth> that is a shitload of things to try and draw
13:41:52 <andythenorth> Wolf01: did you test the patch?
13:44:05 <peter1138> have we got infinite size maps yet?
13:44:53 <andythenorth> peter1138 FS 4947 - daft?
13:45:00 <andythenorth> we already have performance issues
13:45:08 <andythenorth> and we have giant maps
13:45:15 <peter1138> there's a patch isn't there?
13:45:16 <andythenorth> and we have a bunch of bug reports about 4k screens
13:45:28 <peter1138> yeah it links to it, MJP's zoom out
13:45:29 <andythenorth> 128x zoom out on a 4k screen
13:45:38 <andythenorth> on a 4096x4096 map
13:45:55 <andythenorth> bug reports that it’s slow?
13:46:09 <FLHerne> Well, it looks like it drops back to a minimap level of detail
13:46:25 <peter1138> also don't draw vehicles beyond a certain level, etc, etc
13:46:25 <FLHerne> So no newgrf sprite lookups or animations or any of that nonsense
13:47:11 <FLHerne> Aargh, I just called realismfeatures 'nonsense'. You're infecting my minds. :-/
13:48:38 <peter1138> i should just make a debian 9 vm on windows
13:48:48 <peter1138> then i can dev on ottd again
13:49:03 <peter1138> windows is too painful :p
13:50:46 <Celestar> Windows is a good gaming platform
13:50:57 <Celestar> too bad it's completely useless for anything else.
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13:52:59 * andythenorth lives on an OS that’s not actually good at anything
13:53:57 <_dp_> andythenorth, I heard it's good for video editing
14:04:07 <andythenorth> it sometimes went nearly a whole hour before crashing hard
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14:18:50 <FLHerne> On the other hand, avoiding the need for any sort of Linux bootloader was a convenient feature
14:19:15 <FLHerne> Just start the kernel from a MacOS application, overwrite the OS in memory, carry on...
14:24:17 <ST2> that moment you make google costumers active:
14:24:17 <ST2> [13:17:24] <~ST2> !say Trivia of the day: Who was the 1st female locopilot (train driver) of the Indian Railways?
14:24:17 <ST2> [13:18:18] <+ttd-srv1> BladiN (Spectator): Surekha Yadav
14:24:18 <ST2> [13:18:43] <~ST2> !say and BladiN won the cake: Surekha Yadav is correct ;)
14:24:18 <ST2> [13:18:48] <+ttd-srv1> BladiN (Spectator): woho
14:33:03 <Flygon> <Celestar> too bad it's completely useless for anything else.
14:33:07 <Flygon> As an artist, it's good for art. :V
14:33:20 <Flygon> While also catering for needs OSX doesn't do. :VVV
14:33:33 <Celestar> As a dev, it's completely shit.
14:34:24 <Flygon> Hell, Paint Tool SAI doesn't even support OSX.
14:34:34 <Flygon> (A shame it's not cross-platform. Japanese dev. =/_
14:34:54 *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC
14:35:27 <Flygon> (On the other hand the 32-bit Paint Tool SAIs officially support Windows 98. This's a modern art application that's still extremely widely used, and updated.)
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14:38:47 <andythenorth> "Fully support Intel MMX Technology"
14:48:15 <Alkel_U3> uh, 32-bit SAI once stung me by being 32bit. 10000×8000 canvas with many layers is best left to 64bit programs
14:49:19 <Alkel_U3> I could save the file but I had to start by merging the tiniest layers first as it didn't even have enough memory to merge the fuller ones
14:50:54 <Alkel_U3> I'd still like to use it on linux but wine doesn't hand its applications pressure and such from tablets :/
15:01:50 <Flygon> I can't wait for the 64-bit version to be prim and proper.
15:02:07 <Flygon> I haven't hit the RAM limit for a while for... erm, a rather stupid reason.
15:02:15 <Flygon> SAI is an amazing pixel art editor with the binary brush.
15:04:59 <Alkel_U3> I bought Aseprite for pixelart, it's quite good IMHO
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15:06:23 <Flygon> Ahh, I purchased it then... never used it for some reason.
15:09:03 <Flygon> Does Aseprite actually support limiting RGB adjustments to certain ranges?
15:09:53 <Alkel_U3> I know a guy who's been doing digital painting in GIMP for years and refuses to switch to anything more sane for being used to it. Might be similar reason :-)
15:10:13 <Alkel_U3> I'm not sure what that means precisely
15:10:32 <Flygon> It'd be useful to have a mode where you don't have an overall palette.
15:10:40 <Flygon> But the RGB steps are limited to certain places.
15:10:57 <Flygon> For example, with the Mega Drive hardware's RGB DAC operating the way it is, it's actually non-linear.
15:11:42 <Flygon> So, with shadow/highlight mode turned off (which adds a layer of weirdness to the analog output - the S/H process is 100% analog), the RGB steps go in terms of 0, 52, 87, 116, 144, 172, 206, 255
15:12:08 <Flygon> Now, it's nice and all I memorized the non-linear input, but it's a pain in the ass to type in or manually slide the colour adjuster to those exact numbers hahaha.
15:13:01 <Alkel_U3> well, it does have a shading tool where you can specify exact indexes for steps
15:14:10 <Flygon> Yeah, that's closeish, but not quite.
15:14:51 <Flygon> So far, my best bet has been doing the colours in SAI, using the (inaccurate) 36 step method, simply due to being easier to input the colours for.
15:15:04 <Flygon> And hoping the non-linear distortion by the actual DAC doesn't look too off.
15:18:35 <Flygon> aaa those example arts bother me hahaha.
15:18:45 <Flygon> They look way too 'pixel arty'. :D
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15:23:57 <Alkel_U3> I also used to use i.Mage for my first TTD pixelart attempts about 10 years ago but when I came back to it recently I couldn't comprehend how I used to be able to control it efficiently :-)
15:26:09 <Alkel_U3> also in the pixelart studio's gallery there are apparently people who like giving others epileptic seizures
15:27:11 <Flygon> That 'Cool Laser Gun :P' looks like it's... uhm...
15:27:17 <Flygon> ...like Spiderman's webslinger.
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15:28:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
15:30:37 <Alkel_U3> I'd rather think GTA2's electrogun
15:34:03 <Flygon> I mean the way it shoots.
15:34:17 <Flygon> It's like a viscousious fluid.
15:37:19 <Flygon> Yeah, we're on the same page now. Hahaha.
15:37:36 <Flygon> Maybe I should just send the Aseprite guys an email.
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15:56:35 <frosch123> i cleaned up my mailbox
15:58:33 <V453000> was there spam about fs tasks ?:P
15:59:09 <Alberth> nah, it was all good news, everything is done :)
15:59:15 <frosch123> i'll likely ignore the pm requests and just consider fs broken wrt that
15:59:56 <frosch123> anyway, i started a new todo list, it already has 25 items ...
16:00:27 <ST2> 25 items ...?! that's rookie numbers xD
16:00:45 <frosch123> well, the old one had 150?
16:01:03 <frosch123> i only added recent stuff
16:01:08 <ST2> ok, give my words back :D
16:01:25 <Alberth> perhaps let andy loose on the list :p
16:01:59 <Alberth> ie hand it to andy, likely it gets reduced to 1/4th :)
16:02:24 <andythenorth> I emailed James1101 and asked him if he ever joins irc
16:02:36 <andythenorth> he has filed a few quite detailed reports / diagnoses
16:02:54 <andythenorth> there are a few other people who might be good contributors
16:03:02 <andythenorth> FS has been dying on its arse for a couple of years
16:03:35 <andythenorth> it’s all Alberth or frosch123, except when peter1138 took a run at it
16:03:36 <Wolf01> <frosch123> anyway, i started a new todo list, it already has 25 items ... <- want another one?
16:03:56 <andythenorth> noticeably 4 years ago, there’s a lot more r*bidium, Z*u, michi etc
16:04:10 <andythenorth> and a bit before that, hirund*, yex* etc
16:04:11 <Alberth> yep, RB closed loads of them
16:04:32 <frosch123> Wolf01: another list? :p
16:04:44 <Wolf01> I have that singleton patch to review
16:04:52 <andythenorth> a lot of good comes from having more people test patches, and try to repro bugs
16:04:57 <andythenorth> even if they don’t have commit rights
16:05:15 <andythenorth> there are a few people like adf88 who post on FS a lot, but have no channel back to here
16:05:17 <peter1138> that bugs me with newgrf patches
16:05:27 <peter1138> newgrf authors don't test them
16:05:42 <andythenorth> I get the ponies I want done by providing test newgrfs
16:05:47 <andythenorth> otherwise…not happening
16:06:01 <andythenorth> I also used to do the docs updates, until I got banned from the wiki
16:06:02 <peter1138> sometimes you get a "test" newgrf
16:06:26 <Alberth> andy: also because you discuss things at first, and make it work for everybody
16:06:36 <peter1138> but no explanation of what to test, or what result is wrong, or what the expected result it
16:07:02 <Alberth> which works much better than a random patch that some one wrote without checking if it's needed or desired
16:07:09 <andythenorth> I want to burn the ‘suggestions frequently asked for’ in forums, and replace
16:07:19 <andythenorth> also change the pinned topics in dev forum
16:07:31 * andythenorth so many projects :P
16:07:34 <andythenorth> I need a to-do list
16:07:45 <Alberth> maybe an issue tracker :p
16:07:50 <frosch123> andy as forum moderator sounds dangerous :p
16:07:57 <andythenorth> I am not wanting to be a mod
16:08:04 <andythenorth> same reason as I don’t want commit rights
16:08:12 <andythenorth> it scares me enough that I am admin on devzone
16:08:23 <andythenorth> is that thread locked yet supermop_ ?
16:08:28 <andythenorth> before any shit drama happens
16:08:34 <andythenorth> who is forum mod?
16:08:51 <supermop_> andythenorth: i know many friends who are now registered architects in New York who have declined to order their stamp
16:09:10 <supermop_> because they have no interest in having people ask them to stamp drawings
16:09:26 <supermop_> not worth the headache and liability
16:09:54 <andythenorth> oh peter1138 is also mod :P
16:10:42 <supermop_> they also don't include RA or AIA after their name, best to keep it discrete lest someone ask you to take professional responsibility for some pet project
16:11:33 <andythenorth> peter1138: SimYouLater posted a long rambling odd post, and I think he has mental health issues
16:11:42 <andythenorth> usually I’d say let the drama flow, but not in this case
16:12:15 <andythenorth> me and MB were also joint recipients of some related PMs
16:12:36 <andythenorth> probably best just locked :P
16:13:20 <peter1138> nobody is going to read it :p
16:21:07 <Wolf01> I read it along with the whole thread... and now I'm regretting it
16:22:23 <frosch123> sounds like i should not regret to not have read forums in 3 weeks :p
16:23:22 <supermop_> but how will you see my new trams?
16:23:50 <frosch123> you post them here all the time
16:25:40 <frosch123> ok, i did not see the trucks yet
16:27:04 <frosch123> so andy no longer has a monopoly on truck grfs
16:28:02 <andythenorth> eh george has them too :)
16:28:46 <V453000> /me planned to do them at some point
16:28:48 <frosch123> george's are ancient, and zeph is a bus person iirc
16:32:37 <Alberth> yeti flat wagon will work as bus too
16:36:44 <frosch123> isn't that more like a rallye car?
16:38:17 <andythenorth> so how does our github repo actually work then?
16:42:52 <supermop_> i think i wil remove road trains
16:43:02 <FLHerne> frosch123: eGRVTS has a lot of trucks
16:43:09 <supermop_> compete with regular trains
16:44:00 <supermop_> as i have a road train for every type
16:44:36 <supermop_> yeah triples of regular box trailers exist but they feel odd in game
16:44:41 <andythenorth> supermop_: I quite liked them
16:44:48 <andythenorth> but they need a specific roster :P
16:45:02 <supermop_> but arbitrarily saying only mineral trucks get road trains is also stupid
16:45:05 <frosch123> FLHerne: egrvts is meh
16:45:07 <andythenorth> in a generic, balanced roster, they’re way our of place
16:45:13 <frosch123> (pure subjective answer)
16:45:22 <andythenorth> well you only have one :)
16:45:34 <andythenorth> rosters are a great tool for set design
16:45:39 <FLHerne> frosch123: Agreed, that was a response to "and zeph is a bus person iirc"
16:45:45 <andythenorth> even if you never implement them, you can design them on paper :)
16:45:57 <andythenorth> it lets you put good ideas to one side because they just don’t fit
16:46:04 <supermop_> i do think the shades of variations between rigid trucks, semis, and road trains needs more work
16:46:12 <andythenorth> I concluded ‘trucks’
16:46:27 <andythenorth> balancing different types is a fool’s errand
16:46:38 <FLHerne> It's rather like "OpenGFX++", but I don't like OGFX vehicle styling :P
16:46:43 <andythenorth> if you want road trains, add a dedicated road type for them
16:46:44 <supermop_> rather than the more realistic approach i have now which is, 'this is basically the same truck with slightly more hp, and two more trailers'
16:46:55 <andythenorth> the choices in OpenTTD are about type of route you build
16:47:01 <supermop_> FLHerne: opengfx++ was my design goal
16:47:14 <andythenorth> *everyone* who is making ‘choose your optimal vehicle’ sets is…wrong
16:47:27 <andythenorth> choose the type of route, then pick the vehicle that looks nicest
16:47:44 <supermop_> original goals were 'add trolley buses to opengfx+' as proof of concept
16:47:59 <supermop_> and 'maybe make the opengfx+ trams a bit better'
16:48:24 <supermop_> i feel like i am closing in on that goal, but i accidentally added like 100 trucks in the process
16:49:09 <andythenorth> I set out to add industries to justify nodwells in HEQS
16:49:51 <supermop_> style aside, i like the concept of opengfx+ a lot: the vanilla vehicles with just a tad more maturity
16:50:11 <supermop_> but i always wanted just a bit more
16:50:34 <supermop_> in the meantime IH became my opengfx+ trains,
16:51:00 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27897 /trunk (4 files in 2 dirs) (2017-08-24 16:50:55 +0200 )
16:51:01 <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#6577]: Project file generator for kdevelop 4/5 (adf88)
16:52:10 <supermop_> and RH would be my opengfx+ RVs, except NRT made me curious about electric trucks and diesel trams
16:52:27 <supermop_> which were out of scope for RH, so i had to make my own Opengfx++
16:52:42 <andythenorth> FIRS was invented to give the nodwells something to do
16:52:48 <andythenorth> but I never added the nodwells to HEQS
16:53:26 <andythenorth> supermop_: electric trucks aren’t out of scope for RH :)
16:53:40 <andythenorth> I wanted someone else to test them out first
16:53:44 * andythenorth prefers to steal
16:53:54 <supermop_> andythenorth: i wanted them now
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17:13:19 <Wolf01> I'm bored, and I don't want to do anything :(
17:14:34 <andythenorth> youtube + exercise bike
17:14:48 <andythenorth> after 2kms you’re bored of both, and want to do something
17:14:51 <Wolf01> I'm already on netflix, and no space for exercise bike or anything else
17:33:02 <peter1138> outdoors + real bike
17:33:27 <peter1138> 200km without getting bored :p
17:35:16 <crem> 200km is a lot of YouTube videos..
17:35:53 <Alkel_U3> with the advent of 20h loops it could be just one
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17:37:51 <Alkel_U3> although if the intention was to actually >watch< the video, it might be more mercifull to just shoot self :-)
17:42:04 <Wolf01> I don't like to do things alone, I get bored before even starting
17:42:43 <frosch123> too early for ginger beer?
17:43:24 * frosch123 should not advocate drinking probably
17:43:35 <ST2> it's always time for beer... at least somewhere in the world xD
17:44:27 <andythenorth> it’s time for beer or margaritas
17:52:05 <Wolf01> <frosch123> too early for ginger beer? <- ginger *ale, the pub is closed for holiday
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17:55:50 <peter1138> eh, ginger beer is a fizzy soft drink
17:56:31 <andythenorth> what is it for ?
17:56:45 <frosch123> i have no idea about the difference between beer and ale
17:57:31 <peter1138> ginger ale is also a slightly fizzy drink, usually used a mixer for cheap whisky or such like
17:58:00 <peter1138> neither resemble beer or ale
17:58:25 <Alkel_U3> well, "ale" is usually a more bitter style of beer
17:59:18 <Alkel_U3> not very common or traditional around here, I discovered that it's a thing only about 5 years ago
18:00:50 <frosch123> wiki lists 22 types of making beer
18:02:03 <Alkel_U3> yeah, gotta drink them all :-)
18:03:00 <frosch123> i heard like 9 of them, though 3 of them i considered the same :p
18:05:03 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: adf88 was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 2 days, 18 hours, 33 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <adf88> we are in a middle of a coup, interesting times... ;/
18:05:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: adf usually joins .dev
18:05:26 <frosch123> he's the only one to use that channel though :p
18:05:32 <andythenorth> I stopped joing .dev
18:05:49 <andythenorth> I used to enjoy coop
18:06:19 <frosch123> yeah, noone around anymore
18:07:24 <andythenorth> it was like the back channel on the back channel
18:07:31 <andythenorth> is #tycoon still a thing?
18:07:36 <andythenorth> or whatever the other place was
18:07:46 <frosch123> no, i think this is the only place left
18:08:02 <andythenorth> coop died when Ammler and planetmaker stopped posting much there :)
18:08:19 <andythenorth> (the channel, not coop as a concept)
18:10:10 <supermop_> #tycoon is mostly just my home laptop joining and quitting
18:12:25 <supermop_> andythenorth: ginger beer is for making dark and stormies, or moscow mules, etc
18:13:06 <supermop_> ginger ale is more commonly consumed on its own or sometimes as a mixer, it is less strong in ginger flavor
18:13:17 *** supermop has joined #openttd
18:13:39 <supermop_> ginger beer is somewhat 'spicy' due to being so gingery
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18:41:23 <LordAro> supermop_: speaking of, you should get a bouncer
18:41:46 <V453000> I will bounce on you all night
18:42:36 <supermop_> i could just turn my laptop off when i am not home
18:46:00 <frosch123> LordAro: a bouncer is a grave
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18:46:26 <LordAro> frosch123: not if you put it on a server you actually maintain
18:46:32 <LordAro> or a server *someone* maintains
18:47:22 <frosch123> i just go by what is common here :p
18:50:36 <supermop_> ok go to korea and japan for two weeks on saturday
18:50:48 <supermop_> should i 'release' RVs before then?
18:51:23 <supermop_> wont have other tram styles drawn before then but i could fix running costs and smoke effects
18:51:51 <andythenorth> frosch123: so can I stop typing yex* and just let my autocomplete bother his bouncer? :)
18:51:51 <supermop_> was thinking last night about parcel trams etc
18:52:39 <supermop_> so andythenorth does RH mean no more heqs style locomotives?
18:53:09 <supermop_> not sure if i should draw little tram dummies or tiny tank engines and shuntrs
18:54:13 <andythenorth> there are source images showing prototypes for all things
18:54:28 <andythenorth> draw what looks good :)
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18:56:12 <_dp_> andythenorth, 6614 is a small improvement that will make it easier to compile openttd in some weird ways :)
18:56:49 <andythenorth> how can it be tested?
18:58:24 <_dp_> I have a vague idea how to do that but only on linux
18:58:57 <andythenorth> some projects have a ‘to test’ convention for patches
18:59:08 <andythenorth> with instructions
18:59:20 <frosch123> just apply some prejustice
18:59:57 <frosch123> it's an adf patch, so it probably works, you need to check for style and whether it fits/contradicts existing things
19:00:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, in this case I guess it would be 'to test setup this weird cross-compiling environment"
19:00:59 * andythenorth won’t do that then
19:01:08 <andythenorth> Wolf01: NoTrees spec draft? o_O
19:01:36 <_dp_> andythenorth, though you can test that it doesn't break anything for compiling in normal environments :)
19:01:57 <andythenorth> I’d need a normal environment for that :)
19:02:34 <Wolf01> Meh, I wanted to try that zoom patch, but I'm not going to apply 30 patches
19:02:48 <andythenorth> people should fork on github
19:03:00 <andythenorth> branches > patches
19:03:37 <frosch123> ottd pushed the idea of mq in the past :)
19:03:47 <andythenorth> that went…well? :)
19:03:51 <Wolf01> BTW, I have that singleton patch on hold which I don't want to commit
19:03:57 <frosch123> for everyone but you iirc
19:04:06 <andythenorth> yeah, that figures :)
19:04:17 <frosch123> "andy and hg" certainly has some dark memories in this channel :p
19:04:46 <andythenorth> it’s ok, once I got used to the ‘save a diff, destroy your repo, re-clone and apply diff’ hg workflow :)
19:05:15 <andythenorth> I have about the same with git and ‘reset —hard’, it just uses less bandwidth :P
19:05:48 <andythenorth> so where are the tree algorithms
19:08:11 <andythenorth> 6614 builds ok on OS X btw
19:08:24 <andythenorth> for vanilla compile
19:09:02 <andythenorth> Wolf01: ok so CanPlantTreesOnTile() <- move to newgrf cb
19:09:24 <andythenorth> GetRandomTreeType() <- move to newgrf cb
19:09:45 <andythenorth> PlaceTree() can’t tell what that does yet
19:09:53 <frosch123> make a profile how often it is caleld
19:10:08 <andythenorth> that’s like saying ‘andythenorth fly a rocket to the moon’ :)
19:10:13 <andythenorth> but it’s a moon shot
19:10:16 <andythenorth> might take time :P
19:10:46 <andythenorth> PlaceTreeGroups() can’t see why newgrf would need to control that
19:12:00 <andythenorth> hmm, does newgrf need to know what’s building the tree?
19:12:10 <andythenorth> player / map gen / tile loop / SE
19:12:17 <frosch123> company coloured trees? :p
19:12:26 <andythenorth> is there an owner bit?
19:12:30 <Wolf01> PlaceTreeGroups just calls PlaceTree for an area
19:12:58 <andythenorth> does newgrf get to refuse ClearTile_Trees() ?
19:13:02 <andythenorth> protected trees?
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19:13:45 * andythenorth thinks that can be in NoTrees 2
19:13:52 <frosch123> i am sure the transmitter-haters will love indestructible trees
19:14:12 <andythenorth> how does the lumber mill interact with indestructible trees? o_O
19:14:39 <andythenorth> perhaps indestructible trees is…not needed :)
19:14:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: they bribe the authority
19:15:10 <andythenorth> I can’t think of a way to have newgrf plant the trees near a lumber mill, if any
19:15:35 <andythenorth> it seems like in the tile loop, the newgrf should be able to count lumber mills, and choose to plant the tree(s) near them if > 0
19:15:43 <andythenorth> but I don’t think it works
19:16:07 <andythenorth> hmm, TileLoopTreesAlps() and so on
19:16:57 <andythenorth> so the key thing for NoTrees: can the newgrf influence which tiles are selected for planting trees during gameplay?
19:17:10 <andythenorth> or is it only able to say yes / no to tiles presented by OpenTTD in the tileloop
19:18:01 <frosch123> what is your actual goal?
19:18:50 <andythenorth> we had a nice name
19:18:59 <andythenorth> or better, NoTrees
19:19:04 <andythenorth> kind of started from there
19:19:33 <Eddi|zuHause> gotta start with a good name. almost half the work done.
19:20:11 <frosch123> invent some new noise functions for multi-dimensional desert/tropic-like areas
19:20:33 <frosch123> add variables for height and landscape-zone, and make it nolandscape
19:20:45 <frosch123> just don't add any states
19:21:17 <frosch123> only pseudo-random variables, and global animation-status with possibly pseudo-random offset
19:21:21 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and snow+desert on the same map.
19:21:25 <andythenorth> - move all trees to newgrf
19:21:29 <andythenorth> - both appearance and control
19:21:36 <andythenorth> - one less map gen setting
19:21:58 <andythenorth> - people *will* make grfs, look at all the station sets, despite nfo station spec being awful
19:22:13 <andythenorth> - less code, especially less ‘two options’ code
19:22:40 <andythenorth> - more control, over e.g. ‘tree line in arctic’ type stuff
19:22:52 <andythenorth> - also un-break tropic :P
19:22:57 <frosch123> maybe we can get V to make higher-variety landscape sprites
19:23:10 <frosch123> and maybe we can also get him to steal the mapgen from F :p
19:23:11 <andythenorth> a tree spec would get abused
19:23:22 <andythenorth> people would use it to randomly place sprites from newobjects
19:23:26 <andythenorth> but eh, so what?
19:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was the entire point, something like newobjects, but more automatic randomness
19:24:23 <andythenorth> but let’s just spec it to replace trees
19:24:39 <andythenorth> designing for emergent behaviour, not necessary :)
19:24:42 <andythenorth> will happen anyway
19:24:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: also figure out how to mark areas as tree-active
19:25:03 <frosch123> no need to simulate tree growth/dieing in areas no player ever touched
19:25:25 <frosch123> instead keep track of areas where players bulldoze, and make plants re-takeover them
19:26:02 <andythenorth> oh there’s tree die-off and growth eh
19:26:12 <andythenorth> on anything except small maps, that’s overkill :)
19:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> keep a balance between growth/death of trees, but also regenerate areas that are cleared
19:26:37 <frosch123> it's one of those things which likely no modern game does
19:26:54 <andythenorth> wrong level of detail
19:26:57 <frosch123> too much stateful-stuff
19:27:01 <andythenorth> could be simulated with animation :P
19:27:10 <andythenorth> on a random trigger and long frame loop
19:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> citie skylines is fun, it remembers the trees when you build over them, and restores them if you destroy it
19:27:54 <frosch123> are you sure it "remembers" them?
19:28:08 <frosch123> or does it rather create them folowing the same random seed
19:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it also restores manually placed trees
19:28:57 <andythenorth> what’s the view on moving core functionality to openttd.grf or similar?
19:29:12 <andythenorth> so that the game ships with stuff provide, but not in c++
19:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: openttd.grf is not a newgrf
19:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like an oxymoron :p
19:30:55 <andythenorth> can’t move default industries to external grf :P
19:31:03 * andythenorth thinking out loud
19:31:15 <andythenorth> newgrfs often depend on default industries in core
19:32:32 <frosch123> i think that's the same in most modded games
19:32:52 <frosch123> just because you play bob's mods in f, you do not disable the base set
19:33:12 <frosch123> at least it was like that the single time i dared to look what those mods were about
19:33:17 <frosch123> before i ran away screaming
19:33:43 <andythenorth> it’s probably the wrong target also :)
19:33:55 * andythenorth would rather target dumb stuff, like how many signal types we have :)
19:34:24 <frosch123> (for context, "bob's mods" is like "firs extreme extreme")
19:35:41 <frosch123> i am sure i told the channel about the water -> salt, salt + water -> saltwater, saltwater->electrolysis-products chain
19:35:54 <andythenorth> FIRS needs that level of detail
19:36:47 <andythenorth> is there a ‘try to segfault’ button somewhere? :P
19:36:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: you reproduce it, and give precise steps and possibly a stack-backtrace including parameter values
19:36:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: alt+0
19:37:06 <frosch123> or was that removed?
19:37:32 <frosch123> you can also use the console: killall -6 openttd
19:37:35 <Alkel_U3> I just tried sharing my beer by pouring it into the keyboard, did any get through?
19:37:37 <Alberth> not that I ever heard, but never tried it either
19:37:41 <andythenorth> at work we built an app with a segfault button in it
19:37:46 <andythenorth> but it wasn’t useful
19:40:50 <supermop_> andythenorth: i was think last night about that sort or concept - of moving various 'world' things to newgrf
19:41:02 <supermop_> like the means to generate towns
19:41:17 <supermop_> where they go, which are cities, etc
19:41:22 <andythenorth> some kind of town or economy script
19:41:35 <andythenorth> like TownControl, or GS :P
19:41:47 <frosch123> yexo once had a squirrel-mapgen
19:41:53 <supermop_> if it was in newgrf you could have arbitrarily many different ways to spawn towns without having to patch game
19:41:54 <frosch123> it took ages though
19:42:32 <supermop_> currently if you don't like the way the game places towns, there really isn't anything to do about it
19:42:32 <andythenorth> GS or similar seems like a bad way to do it
19:42:44 <andythenorth> but newgrf…might be horrible :P
19:43:01 <andythenorth> but I can place industries pretty well
19:43:04 <frosch123> gs are for active things, newgrf for reactive
19:43:35 <supermop_> maybe you want them kind of close to water, or maybe you want the cities to have exactly 8 small towns surrounding them for some kind of MP style, idk
19:44:14 <supermop_> maybe its neither newgrf nor gs, but something, whatever it is that you download from bananas and chose at will
19:44:28 <andythenorth> in practical application so far
19:44:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a build-roads-gs
19:45:11 <andythenorth> I just use pikka’s annoying AI for that :)
19:45:22 <frosch123> hmm, was it just an ai?
19:45:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27898 trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt (2017-08-24 19:45:40 +0200 )
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> dutch: 18 changes by habell
19:46:04 <andythenorth> grows towns, blocks my train stations
19:46:09 * andythenorth has it in most games
19:46:23 <supermop_> andythenorth: realistic
19:47:03 <supermop_> just like the old railroad day - have to race to build your terminals before the city gets too big for them to fit
19:47:06 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> i am sure i told the channel about the water -> salt, salt + water -> saltwater, saltwater->electrolysis-products chain <-- that sounds almost like the guys who buy pink flamingos and paint them blue, and the other guys who buy blue flamingos and paint them pink
19:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i totally forgot where that was from, though
19:47:45 <frosch123> sounds like gender studies
19:47:52 <andythenorth> ham: 1 month out of date. Fine?
19:48:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if that involves them changing after a certain date, it’s a philosophy problem
19:48:31 <frosch123> depends whether it was already 1 month out of date when it was repackaged :p
19:51:31 <andythenorth> NoLandscape (terrain geneator) is appealing, but might be too slow if not in core
19:52:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: only goal servers would be interested in noeconomy, and they complani that newgrf are too complicated for their users
19:52:04 <Alberth> make it configururable
19:52:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: I know but we could delete smooth economy :D
19:52:28 <andythenorth> also I would use it to control base industry production level
19:52:42 <Alberth> ie it's not only "all c++" or "all squirrel script", you can also do some at either side
19:52:44 <andythenorth> which I can do in FIRS as a parameter setting for players, but not very interestingly
19:53:09 <andythenorth> I wondered about NoDays
19:53:12 <frosch123> i think on the todo list which i had before the 150-items one, there was an item to implement smooth economy as newgrf and then removing it from the base game
19:53:12 <Alberth> *both sides, probably
19:53:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am +1 to that :P
19:53:41 <frosch123> i only came around to remove the "original vehicle names" language
19:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> noundergroundlevels
19:54:00 <andythenorth> NoDays -> find all the places ticks might want to be changed, define them as constants via newgrf
19:54:01 <Alberth> nopenttd2.0, basically :p
19:54:10 <andythenorth> Alberth: its NooooTTD
19:54:43 <andythenorth> from my discussions about daylength, the problem is not “it can’t work ever"
19:54:49 <andythenorth> rather people want different things
19:54:58 <andythenorth> one persons bug is another person’s key feature
19:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that is at least half the problem
19:55:16 <andythenorth> let newgrf deal with that :P
19:55:42 <Alberth> having it configurable doesn't mean it will work :p
19:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> does really not sound like anything newgrf should be involved with
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19:55:56 <andythenorth> plenty of newgrfs don’t work Alberth :D
19:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> we have a pretender!
19:56:57 <supermop_> supermop is really supermopzuhause
19:57:14 <supermop_> _ is supermopbeiarbeit?
19:57:33 <supermop_> sometimes. sometimes it's the reverse
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19:58:54 <frosch123> beiarbeit is better, but aufarbeit is the cool slang
19:59:18 <_dp_> frosch123, my main complaint about newgrfs is that you need them for configuring core mechanics
19:59:38 <_dp_> frosch123, it's fine to have newgrfs that add something substantial like firs
19:59:59 <_dp_> frosch123, but having newgrf just to configure nogrf server is a huge no
20:00:30 <frosch123> tl;dr; the opposite of what andy wants :p
20:01:29 <andythenorth> _dp_: got an alternate vision?
20:01:35 <frosch123> not? andy wanted to move "no tree growth" to newgrf
20:01:44 <andythenorth> as said before, configuring an MP game is so painful
20:01:55 <andythenorth> I would play more 1hr MP goal games…but no
20:02:06 <andythenorth> 45 mins to make a map? Then Alberth has to go to bed before we finish :)
20:03:40 <_dp_> andythenorth, it doesn't contradict anything. Extensible apis/callbacks/whatever are cool, just keep(move) core settings in(to) core game.
20:04:08 <supermop_> _dp_: trees are already part of core game
20:04:17 <andythenorth> _dp_: which settings?
20:04:23 <supermop_> and there is no way to change them without a patch
20:06:09 <_dp_> andythenorth, basecosts, industry chances, etc.
20:06:32 <_dp_> there is literally no way to modify anything about default industry atm
20:06:48 <_dp_> only replace it in newgrf
20:08:18 <andythenorth> that would a hellish UI, for industries?
20:08:40 <_dp_> oh, and btw, when thinking about moddable trees please keep in mind savegame explosion :p
20:08:50 <_dp_> it's kind of a big issue actually
20:09:19 <supermop_> _dp_: the vanilla industries don't have anything about them to change?
20:09:22 <_dp_> Wolf01, about 3/4 of savegame size are trees
20:10:01 <Wolf01> _dp_: moving trees to grf won't touch the savegame
20:10:13 <supermop_> _dp_: that's a good reason to allow better/more sensible tree generation styles, rather than the current uncompressible noise
20:11:06 <peter1138> so openttd dev environment
20:11:09 <peter1138> so what am i going to do?
20:11:21 <andythenorth> how many bits in the map for trees?
20:11:21 <Wolf01> Did you try to enable the linux subsystem on windows?
20:11:59 <frosch123> andythenorth: tree data is just random data
20:12:12 <_dp_> supermop_, core has to allow those styles first, if things get moved to newgrf like they are now it will only prevent the issue from even being fixed
20:12:31 <frosch123> on (stupidly) huge maps, the map array has significant size compared to industry/vehicle/... data
20:13:04 <supermop_> _dp_: trees aren't in newgrf at all now, only just sprite replacement
20:13:04 <frosch123> map array however consists mostly of random data and is thus incompressible
20:13:11 <Wolf01> _dp_: there are already those styles on the core, they need to be moved in grf
20:13:20 <frosch123> solution: remove random bits from trees and make it all pseudo-random
20:13:25 <Wolf01> So they can be changed easily
20:14:02 <_dp_> Wolf01, there is nothing in core, just random noise
20:14:16 <_dp_> so frosch123 is right, it has to be de-randomized
20:14:24 <supermop_> what are we talking about?
20:14:28 <Alberth> just remove 2048 as size
20:14:37 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's not about bits, they just don't compress well
20:14:48 <andythenorth> _dp_: expand? :)
20:14:55 <supermop_> if we have tree placement - random and treeplacement - hilltops only
20:15:13 <andythenorth> are trees not deterministic?
20:15:22 <andythenorth> or is it that it is poor for compression?
20:15:23 <supermop_> andythenorth: no, i wish they were
20:15:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, even right now if you change current noise to some reasonable pattern it greatly reduces savegame size
20:15:38 <supermop_> worst for compression is noise
20:15:47 <Alberth> compression uses common patterns, and random noise has no common patterns
20:16:37 <supermop_> _dp_: if we have the vanilla random trees, and then add in the game a 2nd, 3rd, nth pattern for placing trees
20:16:53 <supermop_> how do we pick the n+1th pattern?
20:17:09 <frosch123> supermop_: it's all fine if you make the random data static
20:17:16 * andythenorth would have just used a byte on each tile, and let the newgrf figure it out
20:17:20 <frosch123> i.e. something which you can compute no the fly, or recompute on game-load
20:17:27 <supermop_> what if i make a style for placing trees that only plants trees right in front of player tracks
20:17:33 <andythenorth> put some random bits in the tile
20:17:35 <frosch123> but it cannot be part of the gamestate and change on user-interaction
20:17:38 <supermop_> no one would agree to add that to trunk
20:17:38 <_dp_> supermop_, it's not quite about adding patterns, patterns usually suck when drawn on grid (what essentially happens in game)
20:17:58 <andythenorth> list which tiles have which random bytes :P
20:18:11 <Wolf01> _dp_, frosch123: yes, the algorithm picks a random tree in a specific interval, just to not have the entire map covered with a single type of tree, it's not that random, also the algorithm tries to place similar trees near existing ones to create patches of the same type. The problem is that isn't really so effective, so you don't notice it and it seem random.
20:18:16 <supermop_> so Mop's Tree Style can only be used if i learn to fork the game
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20:18:57 <supermop_> currently the game has 'original' "improved" and "no trees"
20:18:57 <frosch123> supermop_: you can also distinguish between user-built and random trees
20:19:07 <frosch123> like: give trees the full state when they are manually places
20:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: but to fork the game, don't you have to throw an SJW fit first?
20:19:20 <frosch123> but give random trees just "this is a random tree", and do not store more
20:19:20 <Alberth> andy, trees have a life state counter, and they are placed not all at the same time, so they differ. Trees get sprinkled over the map, so you get eventually random life counter states at the same time
20:19:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: that’s unneeded though
20:19:40 <supermop_> if we want ' even more improved trees'
20:19:43 <andythenorth> one byte is 255 possible states? o_O
20:19:49 <supermop_> do we add that to the core game?
20:20:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there should be no shortage of bytes in the map array for trees
20:20:28 <Alberth> 256, but close enough :)
20:20:39 <_dp_> Wolf01, it's not about how random algorithm actually is, what matters is that it's random enough to explode gzip
20:20:42 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why is it that i have too look up sjw every time it is used, and then remember looking it up the last time?
20:20:59 <andythenorth> eh just put a random byte in the tile then, and let the newgrf provide up to 256 tree layouts
20:21:07 <andythenorth> it can even use more crap, like game month etc
20:21:13 <Wolf01> _dp_: random or filled by meaningful numbers still the same bits
20:21:14 <supermop_> frosch123: because you are fortunate enough to not live in america
20:21:20 <andythenorth> that’ s quite enough variety
20:21:42 <supermop_> Wolf01: your tree patch is exactly what i want
20:21:52 <Wolf01> byte var = 0; or byte var = random(); use the same memory
20:21:58 <andythenorth> we can drop m2 3..0 m5 7..6 m5 2..0
20:22:05 <supermop_> it is essentially a stylistic choice
20:22:18 <supermop_> so why force it to be added as a patch
20:22:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: the trick is to not put the random byte into the tile
20:22:35 <_dp_> Wolf01, not after compression
20:22:39 <frosch123> but to make that byte recomputable whenever it is needed
20:22:56 <supermop_> what if i want a different style for some complex cactus ecosystem i add with catus.grf or whatever
20:22:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: we can’t just store 16 lists of tiles? :P
20:22:57 <frosch123> i..e. it can be random, but it cannot depend on game actions
20:23:00 <Wolf01> _dp_: compression can be done with or without moving to grf
20:23:21 <andythenorth> no, andythenorth can’t count :(
20:23:24 <supermop_> like lets say instead of no trees on mountain tops i want only trees on mountain tops
20:23:26 <andythenorth> 256 lists of tiles :P
20:23:34 <andythenorth> can’t we hash it, based on tile location, height?
20:23:41 <andythenorth> and the map seed?
20:23:58 <frosch123> supermop_: that still does not require storing the result
20:24:05 <frosch123> you can recompute that
20:24:13 <andythenorth> if we hash it, we can recompute
20:24:18 <Wolf01> supermop_: yes, it's a stylistic choice, that's why I'm fine with moving it to grf, also because with a grf you can control better which tree you want at a given height, with core I don't know the difference
20:24:18 <frosch123> the only thing you cannot recompute is whether this tile was bulldozed 50 years ago
20:24:25 * andythenorth is having ‘my first programming’ moment :P
20:24:41 <supermop_> so what i suggest is that in addition to the current built in tree placement rules, we allow grf to add rule sets like Wolf01's
20:25:19 * andythenorth suggests dropping the existing rules, and breaking backwards compatibility, but harmlessly
20:25:27 <supermop_> and i don't see why that is a problem for _dp_ 's use case
20:25:28 <Wolf01> But we should move everything to grf, not just add
20:25:46 <andythenorth> smaller saves = better MP experience?
20:25:52 <supermop_> because the noisiness of it is independent of it being in trunk or grf
20:26:02 <andythenorth> do we have to transmit all the tree crap during the game, or just when getting map?
20:26:02 <_dp_> supermop_, because instead of having one tree placement that explodes saves you'll have infinite number of those
20:26:27 <_dp_> supermop_, one can at least be fixed
20:26:40 <supermop_> _dp_: if every tree placement style is in trunk, they could get used on your server
20:27:15 <Wolf01> _dp_: I can't understand you
20:27:20 <supermop_> if they are in newgrf, then you can chose not to use noiseyrandomtrees.grf on your server
20:27:33 * andythenorth asumes tree state is synced to all clients, so MP has to transmit state for it?
20:27:43 <supermop_> if noiseyrandomtrees in in trunk you are stuck with it
20:28:00 <andythenorth> nah, we just break backwards compatibility
20:28:01 <Alberth> andy: yes, but on join only
20:28:14 <_dp_> supermop_, what i'm saying is make less noisy way of placing trees first and then make it extensible with newgrfs
20:28:33 <andythenorth> just simplify trees
20:28:36 <Wolf01> _dp_: which is what we are talking about
20:28:40 <andythenorth> all will be fine :)
20:28:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: what if treestate is deterministic so you can recompute it on game load
20:28:52 <frosch123> no need to transmit it then
20:28:55 <_dp_> supermop_, instead of extending bad thing and prevent it from even being fixed because of compatibility
20:29:05 <andythenorth> I was hoping it was another reason this is a GOOD BAD FEATURE
20:29:19 <andythenorth> -> more fun for newgrf authors
20:29:22 <andythenorth> -> smaller saves
20:29:24 <Wolf01> Also what if I manually place random trees on the map? One by one
20:29:27 <andythenorth> -> less state transmitted in MP
20:29:28 <peter1138> treestate can never change?
20:29:44 <supermop_> allowing newgrf tree styles doesn't extend the existing bad tree generators
20:29:52 <andythenorth> no they would get rm-ed
20:30:33 <_dp_> Wolf01, it's fine to have huge save in that case since noone even does it
20:30:49 <Alberth> _dp_: you always have a compatibility problem somewhere if you remove such state
20:30:54 <Wolf01> _dp_: not a valid reason
20:31:00 <frosch123> Wolf01: store them in the begining and when the player does not check revert them back to random :p
20:31:03 <supermop_> andythenorth: removing original trees would not prevent you from loading save with original random trees
20:31:08 * andythenorth likes andythenorth’s idea best
20:31:17 <andythenorth> supermop_: you just send that data to dev/null
20:31:27 <supermop_> just no new random trees would grow
20:31:41 <andythenorth> omelette, eggs :)
20:31:43 <frosch123> they can still grow
20:32:09 <Wolf01> And making a random seed saved on the game, and remove all the randoms? You can get the same trees even if you dynamite the entire map
20:32:12 <frosch123> the tree on tile (1,1) would always match the tree on tile (1263,592)
20:32:50 <Wolf01> You will just have a "plant tree" button, and it places the tree based on that seed
20:33:05 <andythenorth> how may bits can we delete then? o_O
20:33:39 <Wolf01> Eh, you still need to keep count of trees for every tile
20:33:52 <andythenorth> you’ve got 255 random values
20:33:54 <peter1138> so you know how many trees are on a tile
20:34:10 <andythenorth> just generate tree patterns based on that
20:34:13 <andythenorth> it’s enough state
20:34:25 <andythenorth> also got tile height, ground type, game date, blah blah
20:34:46 <peter1138> generate tile height from the seed
20:35:13 <frosch123> landscape may be slightly rough
20:35:28 <andythenorth> NoTerrain can sort that out later :P
20:35:36 <Wolf01> The problem is that you can change the tile height by playing
20:35:47 <andythenorth> maybe that’s a bug :P
20:35:49 <peter1138> and you can change tree state by playing
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20:36:03 <Wolf01> Yes, but you can remove the randomness and calculate it
20:36:07 <andythenorth> another bug peter1138
20:37:02 <peter1138> pseudo random based on some seed and x and y?
20:37:11 <peter1138> whenever you change a tree... you always get the same tree
20:37:28 <peter1138> no temporal changes
20:37:31 <andythenorth> if you don’t like, it add a newgrf that fixes it :P
20:38:03 <supermop_> i think i would prefer to be able to see different trees on tile x,y over time
20:38:11 <andythenorth> ok, what would be better, excepting current implementation? o_O
20:38:24 <peter1138> what's the problem again?
20:38:28 <_dp_> supermop_, add date to hash :p
20:38:35 <andythenorth> peter1138: was newgrf trees
20:38:37 <andythenorth> then it...evolved
20:38:44 <peter1138> every changes every time the date changes
20:38:45 <supermop_> but if that means removing random built in function, and then i have to add a new random genrator back in by newgrf, i would be ok with it
20:39:02 <andythenorth> you know how it goes
20:39:10 <andythenorth> you set off to Dublin, and end up in Kilmarnock
20:39:26 <Wolf01> Change trees at every tick
20:39:37 <supermop_> i am fine if the built in trees are somewhat boring and non-random
20:40:07 <supermop_> Wolf01: make cellular automata out of trees
20:40:16 <supermop_> and have them gliding across the map
20:40:29 <Wolf01> Conway game of life, with OTTD trees
20:40:51 <_dp_> yep, save issue is not quite about removing randomness but rather moving it from map array to code
20:41:24 <supermop_> _dp_: i just want the abiltiy to add either the bad random, or something else, back in via newgrf
20:41:55 <supermop_> or if not newgrf, some other modular element for landscape pieces
20:42:04 <supermop_> river generation as well
20:42:20 <supermop_> even town road pattern
20:42:28 <_dp_> supermop_, that's fine I guess as long as it doesn't prevent core and other grfs from planting them efficiently
20:42:44 <supermop_> the fact that i cannot get a 2x4 street grid without a patch seems crazy to me
20:44:06 <supermop_> some townsets try to make different styles of towns - like pikkas - but they cant control where those town are
20:44:56 <supermop_> if every town on your map happens to be on top of a height 60 desert mountain, some of those are going to have to be cities anyway
20:45:59 <peter1138> sorry i lost the will to live
20:47:49 <_dp_> supermop_, you can get 2x4: disable roads and write gs :p
20:49:04 <frosch123> LordAro: weren't it like 11 before?
20:49:26 <LordAro> frosch123: yeah, you implemented some of them ;)
20:50:02 <LordAro> oh, and 0004 in 421da doesn't actually work
20:50:09 <LordAro> something about static initialisation order
20:50:13 <frosch123> nah, you dropped for example the multibyte thingie
20:50:31 <frosch123> which was btw. blatantly incomplete :p
20:50:53 <LordAro> i basically gave up once i realised how many there were :p
20:52:40 <supermop_> _dp_: current i turn off towns allowed to build and build them myself sometimes
20:53:26 <supermop_> but with unspooled the maintenance cost gets a little high, so i end up with cities full of dirt roads
20:54:32 <supermop_> only upgrade to asphalt when i want to run a bus down that street
20:54:59 <frosch123> LordAro: btw. how far got your halfbuzz tries?
20:55:12 <frosch123> or did i only dream about you trying stuff?
20:55:25 <frosch123> i though i remembered some configure patch
20:56:01 <LordAro> no further than configuring
20:56:46 <LordAro> not that i can find any patch now
20:57:27 *** supermop has joined #openttd
20:58:26 <andythenorth> it’s 3 totally different patches on one FS
20:59:24 <supermop_> andythenorth: nice submission date on that spelling patch
21:01:26 <andythenorth> wiki link is dead
21:01:45 <frosch123> i guess "company shares" is one of those topics that makes me regret the project goals :)
21:02:00 <frosch123> can we find some excuse to remove them?
21:02:10 <andythenorth> it’s not a current goal to extend them
21:02:12 <_dp_> andythenorth, judging by lang file 5857 changes shares buying from being in chunks of 25% to 5%
21:02:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: I can’t even say “NoShares"
21:02:34 <andythenorth> if the No thing becomes a dumb joke, it’s no use :P
21:02:44 <andythenorth> can anyone explain shares to me?
21:02:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: revert back to "yet another"?
21:02:51 <andythenorth> why don’t I just buy the company?
21:03:06 <supermop_> yet another shareholding mechanism
21:03:07 <_dp_> andythenorth, realism :p
21:03:13 <LordAro> "because TTD" i think
21:03:22 <andythenorth> are shares in TTD?
21:03:48 <LordAro> istr that they changed a bit between the two
21:03:52 <supermop_> LordAro: dont recall them in tto
21:03:57 <andythenorth> frosch123 ‘replicate the original gameplay, except where it’s daft’?
21:04:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's the only option to remove an ai company in ttd
21:04:25 <supermop_> what gameplay value did shares contribute?
21:04:42 <andythenorth> reduce it to a ‘buy’ button?
21:04:44 <Wolf01> We started so well by removing the silly AI and add it with external resources
21:04:45 <frosch123> i think i read about people having fun buying ai companies and refactoring the ai nonsense-network
21:04:53 <andythenorth> I used to buy AI
21:05:05 <supermop_> lets force shareholding on MP servers, so you cannot take action in your campany unless a majority of other shareholding players agree
21:05:42 <Wolf01> I think he is the boss
21:08:56 <frosch123> supermop_: if you buy 50 of the shares, you can kick the player from the server?
21:09:12 <frosch123> or move to spectators
21:09:55 <supermop_> we need to make it more easy for players with huge cash reserves to make the game miserable for newly formed companies
21:10:27 <andythenorth> shares are mostly boring
21:10:39 <_dp_> supermop_, easy enough, just terra all to water :p
21:10:55 <supermop_> yes but we need more
21:11:22 <supermop_> let them buy your company and reassign you to cleaning out the boilers of steam trains
21:12:17 <andythenorth> seems half-implemented?
21:13:03 <frosch123> yes, nothing wrong with the idea, but i gave up trying to teach basic coding skills to random patchers
21:13:33 <frosch123> it were two features, i reimplemented the first one
21:13:58 <frosch123> maybe the second one can be folded into newlandscape :p
21:14:23 <LordAro> andythenorth: probably wants some sort of selection dropdown?
21:14:28 <LordAro> not sure if that exists
21:14:38 <LordAro> maybe cannibalise some of the settings stuff?
21:15:26 <frosch123> signs have a text filter
21:15:36 <frosch123> imho all lists in ottd should have a text filter
21:15:42 <LordAro> alternatively, maybe comlock's UI? it would be consistent with the map
21:17:35 <frosch123> the other one is consistent with station list :p
21:17:40 <frosch123> but station list is meh as well
21:17:53 <frosch123> i wonder whether i ever used it
21:18:24 <LordAro> and text filters don't allow you to "select" totally disjoint items
21:18:31 <LordAro> which is what's being done here
21:19:01 <frosch123> our text filters do OR
21:19:27 <frosch123> they are not "whole match"
21:21:04 <andythenorth> +1 to text filter, but eh
21:22:09 <andythenorth> last chance to save it :P
21:23:28 <peter1138> what were we doing?
21:25:02 <_dp_> "Squirrel is a high level imperative, object-oriented programming language, designed to be a light-weight scripting language that fits in the size, memory bandwidth, and real-time requirements of applications like video games."
21:25:44 <frosch123> shorten it to "squirrel is like lua, but real objects"?
21:26:21 <_dp_> frosch123, I've no idea what lua is like :)
21:26:54 <frosch123> lua is like c, but with some syntactical tricks to make stuff appear as objects
21:27:02 <frosch123> which makes it actually horrible
21:27:29 <Alberth> and querying something non-existing yields 'nil'
21:28:56 <frosch123> if you have a instance "i", and a method "m", you can write "i:m()" to call it, but "i.m" is something entirely different
21:29:12 * _dp_ never seen a sane language counting from 1
21:29:29 <frosch123> "i:m(...)" is short for "i.__metatable.m(i, ...)"
21:29:33 *** supermop has joined #openttd
21:29:43 <frosch123> or something similar
21:30:14 <supermop_> a thing i designed has become a real thing
21:30:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's on the offical todo list :p
21:31:11 <V453000> supermop_: is that your living room? :P
21:31:14 <LordAro> andythenorth: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
21:31:49 <LordAro> andythenorth: i think it could probably be finished relatively easily
21:32:07 <Alberth> looking nice supermop_
21:34:37 <supermop_> V453000: its the cabinetmaker's shop
21:34:40 <supermop_> this is for a client
21:35:07 <supermop_> at the time i felt bad that it was going to be so expensive, but now i wish i had asked her to use a fancier fabric
21:35:12 <milek7> hmm, i was considiering using lua in train simulator, as it looked popular and reasonably fast for scripting language
21:35:16 <milek7> but if counting starts at 1, i need to find something else ;d
21:36:07 <frosch123> milek7: lua is old and has some mainenance drama
21:36:15 <frosch123> squirrel is likely more suitable now
21:36:29 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd
21:36:41 <_dp_> lua still seems vastly more popular
21:37:01 <frosch123> php and mysql are also popular
21:38:21 <andythenorth> writing js frameworks is popular
21:38:30 <andythenorth> are at least…frequent :P
21:38:37 <supermop_> it has three hinged compartments for storage
21:38:53 <supermop_> as flat file for art prints
21:39:13 <supermop_> total length is 8', width is 20"
21:39:14 <frosch123> i just had some trouble putting that into context, but was funny
21:39:57 <andythenorth> are / or /s but nvm
21:39:57 <frosch123> i would totally believe if javascript has three hinged compartments for storage
21:40:32 <andythenorth> there is likely a framework for it
21:42:07 <milek7> hm, how squirrel binds to c/c++?
21:42:20 <milek7> luajit ffi looked really simple
21:42:45 <_dp_> I've no idea what 5619 might be useful for
21:42:50 <frosch123> usually you do it with template magic
21:43:01 <frosch123> but if you care about performance there are other options
21:43:24 <frosch123> at work i recently had to use lua
21:43:54 <andythenorth> multiple hotkeys extends user interface?
21:43:54 <frosch123> my custom binding code has twice the speed of luabridge, but ofc nasty to use
21:44:10 <_dp_> but I'm only playing patched client, so mb it already has some hotkey issue fixed which that patch might address
21:44:35 <andythenorth> so we have a patch nobody knows need for?
21:44:42 <andythenorth> probably commit it then :)
21:45:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: i believe it does rotation stuff
21:45:34 <frosch123> press "a" for autorail, press "a" again for autoroad
21:45:58 <frosch123> you can bind the same key to multiple things and it rotates between them
21:46:21 <_dp_> frosch123, "Allow multiple hotkey actions assigned to one key if at most one of them is a tool hotkey"
21:46:28 <_dp_> frosch123, doesn't sound like it
21:47:00 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen 3298.
21:47:20 <frosch123> i don't think usernames can start with a number
21:47:29 <V453000> checking if the bot saw the ticket so you can ditch it? :D
21:47:58 <andythenorth> I’ve emailed 3298 to see if he’ll join irc
21:48:04 <frosch123> milek7: what makes it polish? the vehicles or the interface?
21:50:31 <milek7> aside from launcher there is almost no interface
21:51:22 * _dp_ writing python that writes c++
21:51:33 <_dp_> coz I too lazy to write c++ myself
21:52:13 <andythenorth> that’s what python’s for, right?
21:52:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: do any of the patches have "filter by currently visible in main viewport"?
21:52:43 <frosch123> (no idea whether it would actualyl turn out usable)
21:53:23 <frosch123> alternatively: filter by smallmap :p
21:54:20 * _dp_ haven't seen any news improvement idea that I'd find useful
21:55:10 <frosch123> about news: i always wanted to replace the horizontal ticker with a vertical one
21:55:42 <frosch123> vertical resizeable statusbar, and way faster scrolling compared to horizontal
21:56:05 <andythenorth> “frosch says no"
21:57:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ if I close that, will you be cross?
21:59:11 <_dp_> there seem to be enough performance issues with that kind of stuff already
21:59:14 <andythenorth> but it’s from 2012
22:01:41 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd
22:02:45 <SimYouLater> Trying to work on TTD-Scale tracks, but tbh I will need a pre-assembled single nml file, if only to trim it down to what I need for the one railtype.
22:03:02 <SimYouLater> In GPL v2 licence.
22:04:56 <SimYouLater> I tried Nutracks, but it's simply too confusing and no single tracktypes have NML GPL v2 code.
22:05:12 <SimYouLater> Is termite not finescale?
22:05:13 <supermop_> at least i think it is
22:05:26 <andythenorth> termite is not finescale
22:05:36 <SimYouLater> I'll try it. brb...
22:05:54 <supermop_> but RAIL and ELRL are normal
22:07:53 <andythenorth> 429 open FS left
22:08:08 *** dirtyroshi has joined #openttd
22:08:46 <LordAro> at what point do you start fixing them instead of closing them? :p
22:09:07 <andythenorth> there were ~840 when I started
22:09:15 <andythenorth> so I reckon maybe 419
22:09:32 <andythenorth> I have tested some patches that appear to work
22:13:19 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
22:13:32 <SimYouLater> About termite. It doesn't have graphics for RAIL or ELRL. It's programmed to use the existing graphics and doesn't include them.
22:14:33 <andythenorth> fails to apply :(
22:14:53 <andythenorth> quite a lot of failures
22:15:33 <supermop_> SimYouLater: i think it adds sprites for 3rd rail
22:16:21 <supermop_> are you looking for code example or graphic example? you could probably erase the 3rd rail from the 3rd rail tracks
22:16:29 <SimYouLater> The thing is, I'm hoping not to have to mess with sprite alignments, considering how long Nutracks apparently had misaligned tracks.
22:16:47 <SimYouLater> I suppose I could.
22:16:58 <SimYouLater> I'm just not really sure how.
22:17:04 <supermop_> also i think swedish tracks is simple and gpl, and adds sprites
22:17:40 <andythenorth> what’s the goal?
22:18:29 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
22:23:19 <_3298> numbers at the start are indeed not allowed (read the log page), but underscores are apparently fine :)
22:24:21 * andythenorth is having a Flyspray bonfire
22:25:15 <_3298> i noticed your activity on flyspray already
22:25:47 <andythenorth> I think Alberth started reviewing the groups gui patch ;)
22:26:47 <_3298> looking back, 5619 is more like a solution in search of a problem
22:27:06 <andythenorth> wondered about that :)
22:28:12 <_3298> i wrote it to get around a design flaw in my transparency gui draft, then solved it in another way, and dumped the patch on the bugtracker for others to find
22:28:35 *** SimYouLater has joined #openttd
22:29:16 <andythenorth> _3298: mind if I close it? o_O
22:30:04 <SimYouLater> Ugh, I somehow got disconnected.
22:31:03 <SimYouLater> @andythenorth: I'm trying to make a newgrf with a single tracktype, with graphics which imitate the original TTD toyland rails.
22:34:07 *** supermop has joined #openttd
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22:37:18 <_3298> andy, if you think 427 is too few, i can add a few new patches ;)
22:37:42 <SimYouLater> How would I download the linked example as one piece? I don't use any special coding meger programs.
22:39:05 <andythenorth> _3298: you could fix some of the bugs :P
22:39:25 <andythenorth> SimYouLater: you can’t
22:39:38 <andythenorth> download one at a time, or get a version control app
22:39:57 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
22:40:09 <_3298> andy: i don't think i have that type of patch available right now :(
22:40:11 <supermop_> SimYouLater: swedish tracks might be one simple nml file
22:40:34 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
22:43:00 <SimYouLater> Well, at least it was small. Downloading tons of files would have been painful...
22:44:24 <supermop_> ive actually never managed to do a rail grf despite all the MLSS nonsense with depots, and trying to draw Alweg monorail tracks in fits and starts
22:45:20 <supermop_> at first i hated monorails, seeing them as a boondoggle used to forstall real heavy rail construction
22:46:51 <supermop_> but reading up on the alweg system to inform an idea for a monorail grf that would be more hobbled and realistic led me to get charmed by the stupid things
22:47:19 <supermop_> so now i want to make a monorail grf out of genuine appreciation for a very niche product
22:48:22 <supermop_> and now i aim to make a point of riding the Osaka monorail week after next
22:48:50 <supermop_> ( already rode the Tokyo monorail after my 'conversion' back in 2013)
22:49:45 <SimYouLater> @andythenorth: that example has "nml" files containing html code unrelated to what anyone would need
22:50:47 <andythenorth> SimYouLater: whre?
22:51:23 <SimYouLater> Oh. Apparently you have to click "view".
22:52:04 <SimYouLater> Or similar. Download.
22:55:56 *** supermop has joined #openttd
22:56:05 <andythenorth> V453000: now I can’t go to bed :(
22:56:17 <andythenorth> that’s at least 1hr
22:56:19 <V453000> this guy is fucking amazing
22:56:42 <andythenorth> oh it’s new doom, not the original midi track
22:57:22 <SimYouLater> Thanks, andy, the files will be perfect.
23:13:48 *** mescalito has joined #openttd
23:18:29 *** dirtyroshi has joined #openttd
23:24:31 <supermop_> i assume andy'd life is free of doom
23:24:48 <supermop_> and is all brio, lego, etc
23:27:08 <supermop_> i had the n64 doom cart
23:27:23 <supermop_> seemed like an old game even then
23:27:40 <supermop_> and an odd choice to be on n64
23:30:46 <supermop_> i think it must have been part of some rush for n64 FPS shovelware
23:45:05 <peter1138> This will install Ubuntu on Windows
23:45:42 <frosch123> it could install vim
23:45:56 <Wolf01> You can also wait for the next update and download many different subsystems via store
23:45:58 <supermop_> why is donald the locomotive and mickey the tender?
23:46:36 <Wolf01> Do you see a tender with a beak?
23:48:13 <peter1138> how long to wait for the next update?
23:49:34 <peter1138> too late anyway, it's installing
23:50:13 <Wolf01> I hope it's installing 16.04 and not 14.04
23:50:37 <Wolf01> I had to upgrade manually after creator update
23:55:25 <frosch123> so you can only play textmode ottd?
23:55:46 <Wolf01> You can install an x server on windows and use that
23:55:59 <frosch123> ok, that was my next question
continue to next day ⏵
