IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-23
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00:00:16 <supermop_> do i still need 'self' if it is for global vars
00:00:32 <andythenorth> action 2 chain probably just chokes somewhere if it’s an invalid var, can’t remember how it works
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00:00:56 <andythenorth> or returns a value that happens to match to the bus sprite
00:01:19 <andythenorth> supermop_: don’t know about SELF there, what do nml docs say?
00:01:40 <supermop_> for switches it says 'N/A' for feat_globalvars
00:01:44 <andythenorth> afaik, I’ve never used FEAT_GLOBALVARS
00:01:59 <supermop_> idk if that means i can omit it
00:03:34 <andythenorth> nmlc probably does the write thing when compiling
00:03:40 <andythenorth> right / write /s
00:03:56 <andythenorth> if the scope is N/A here, then nmlc probably sorts that out for you
00:04:44 <supermop_> nmlc says: "cannot refer to block 'switch_spriteset_mc5_tram' with feature 'FEAT_GLOBALVARS', expected feature is 'FEAT_ROADVEHS'
00:05:11 <andythenorth> what is this drive side var?
00:05:11 * andythenorth never encountered it
00:05:53 <andythenorth> Wolf01: you’re sorting out the game settings mess, for newgame / new scenario?
00:08:24 <andythenorth> supermop_: are you sure that it’s traffic_side that’s failing?
00:08:31 <andythenorth> you chain through more switches
00:08:54 <supermop_> but thats the thing that is different for the two trams that have the problem
00:09:11 <supermop_> no other tram tries to use traffic side
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00:29:57 <supermop_> Hmm well commenting out that switch fixed it
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09:13:16 <LordAro> heh, i'm working on bug 5959 at work
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09:51:11 <crem> Are "engineering supplies" humans? :) Is it a supply of engineers? Hm, then why do they only arrive through port and what happens with old ones..
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09:54:39 <crem> 3.0? Is it what I had to use?
09:55:01 <V453000> had to is a strong statement
09:55:38 <crem> But it should be playable?
09:57:11 <V453000> if andy says it's amazing on top :)
10:01:04 <andythenorth> possible the charts don’t show there in some browsers
10:02:03 <andythenorth> easier on the eye :)
10:03:06 <crem> buuuuuuuut.. where is wood, for example? No more wood?
10:05:07 <andythenorth> depends on the economy
10:05:57 <andythenorth> Temperate Basic and Arctic Basic are the best economies IMHO
10:06:23 <andythenorth> Extreme is…dumb :P
10:07:07 <crem> 99% of all time I played temperate (in raw ttd/openttd), it's somehow the most visually appealing.
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10:07:40 <andythenorth> you can use FIRS economies in any climate of your choice btw
10:08:41 <crem> And toyland was the easy way to cause eyes to fall out. :)
10:17:56 <V453000> extreme is all the shit on one big pile?
10:21:14 <crem> And more than that, it seems. Like "Ammonia plant"
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10:26:19 <crem> What's the typical "environment" on multiplayer servers, is it competitive or cooperative? Do people just play independently on one map because it's fun, or there's competition and they try to reduce each other's profit?
10:28:33 <V453000> well most common is the most basic, which is competitive. People join, build something really horrible, talk to others how their vehicles are crashing better than the other's and how that guy is lucky because his coal mine is producing 10t more and that's why he has 100 trains, lucky bastard.
10:29:02 <V453000> but cooperation iz best
10:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't play any multiplayer, but from what i have seen, it's mostly people playing like they normally do, just that other people happen to play at the same time (and sometimes get in the way)
10:38:26 <_dp_> crem, and competition is usually by trying to do better rather than undermine competitors
10:38:35 <_dp_> crem, latter doesn't rly work well in openttd
10:39:29 <crem> Ok, will play singleplayer then, I guess.
10:40:14 <_dp_> interesting conclusion xD
10:40:52 <_dp_> imo sp is only better if you want to play same game for long time (irl)
10:41:21 * andythenorth would play more if there was a quick way to configure games that fit in my evening
10:42:09 <andythenorth> basically, kids go to bed at 8pm, and I go to bed at 10pm :P
10:42:32 <Alkel_U3> there's the infrastructure sharing patch for more interesting coop play but the payment is broken if cargo transfers between multiple companies. Meaning that only the company making the last leg of the trip gets all the money from it and it doesn't seem there's a good way to solve that
10:42:55 <andythenorth> coop same company works fine
10:43:06 <Alkel_U3> but I had fun once playing with someone on same company
10:43:13 <_dp_> andythenorth, there are some short goal servers, why not play on them?
10:43:29 <andythenorth> never explored them
10:43:41 <_dp_> I usually don't play for more than an hour
10:43:47 <andythenorth> how would I get op on them?
10:43:53 <andythenorth> or I could make friends with server admins
10:44:12 <Alkel_U3> I used to play on luukland, some of those were 3 h long
10:44:12 <V453000> first thing he cares about
10:45:02 <_dp_> andythenorth, what do you even need op for?
10:46:02 <_dp_> I usually don't mind giving op for any sane person that's familiar with our servers
10:46:50 <andythenorth> _dp_: how do I restart the game without op? o_O
10:47:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, on citymania there is !restart command
10:47:14 <_dp_> andythenorth, you have to be alone on server though
10:47:34 <_dp_> andythenorth, but that's usually not an issue xD
10:47:41 <andythenorth> V453000: now I want to make a King Of The Hill GS
10:47:49 <andythenorth> dunno what it does, but your aim is moar POWER
10:49:25 <_dp_> Alkel_U3, btw, citymania is successor of luukland, we still have those 3h servers
10:49:38 <_dp_> Alkel_U3, but also many even shorter goal ones
10:50:10 <andythenorth> do they just restart on a timetable?
10:50:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, no, I think I switched them all to free runs
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11:14:30 <peter1138> everybody knows, everybody knows, that's how it goes, everybody NOOO!
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11:19:09 <Alkel_U3> _dp_: I already found out about citymania but just wasn't very compelled to play that kind of game lately
11:19:38 <Alkel_U3> I'm still keeping it in mind for when I feel the urge to play something like that again :-)
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11:32:50 <Wolf01> andythenorth: I don't know how to solve the config bugs, the state machine is broken because of shared features
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11:40:50 <andythenorth> Wolf01: awesome sauce :)
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12:04:07 * andythenorth working right now, so can’t :)
12:04:21 <andythenorth> also I don’t have a numeric keypad :P
12:06:39 <Wolf01> It works fine on windows
12:07:32 <Wolf01> With disabled numlock it does home, end, left, right... page up/dn and up/dn can't work there
12:08:29 <andythenorth> with patch, or without? o_O
12:16:22 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I think that could have made the bug
12:16:35 <Wolf01> Check if it was fixed later
12:17:03 <Wolf01> Maybe on a 2013+ commit instead of a 2008 one
12:18:31 <andythenorth> searched numlock
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13:45:26 <andythenorth> I build pax-pax in the two biggest, convenient cities
13:46:08 * andythenorth likes the idea of developing a mod where people take years to perfect their playing technique
13:46:27 <andythenorth> crem: which economy did you choose? o_O
13:46:30 <crem> I do like idea with transfer stations though. Somehow I always aim to build realistic network rather than optimize for profit.
13:46:57 <andythenorth> the transfers are for consolidating from multiple nearby mines
13:47:04 <andythenorth> so you can run…big trains ;)
13:47:19 <crem> temperate basic. But actually I didn't play at all, went to bed yesterday after I managed to start it. And currently I'm at work, will try in the evening.
13:47:25 <Wolf01> crem: that's like to boost the delivering of coal, steel mill or power plant doesn't change much, but with steel mill you can get steel later in exchange
13:47:59 * andythenorth checks if temperate basic has fish cargo
13:48:21 <andythenorth> fish is a good base starting cargo
13:48:31 <andythenorth> it uses boats, so minimal infrastructure
13:48:43 <andythenorth> not high profit, but good steady income
13:48:48 <crem> Actually I probably will restart with arctic basic. And earliest year possible. Probably not 1850 though.
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13:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> mst vehicle sets start in 1920
13:55:27 <andythenorth> and before that, they’re mostly slow
13:55:31 * andythenorth starts around 1900
14:06:33 <_dp_> andythenorth, it took years to perfect technique on our 3h cb servers :p
14:06:50 <_dp_> highscore was 70k solo on LL, now it's 130k
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14:11:40 <_dp_> coop cb jumped from 86k to 171k it seems
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15:46:59 <supermop_> need the little industrial trains still
15:47:41 <supermop_> i should have named the set YO TRAMS!
15:48:19 <Alberth> never too late for a rename :)
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15:55:53 <supermop_> i wonder why all my smoke is so far out front of my vehicles
15:58:07 <andythenorth> you need to position it
15:58:25 <supermop_> if i sandwich a tram between two trams of another set, it don't over lap them, so it's not like i have a wildly wrong interpretation of the tram offsets
15:58:25 <andythenorth> it’s a property or cb result, can’t remember which
15:58:38 <andythenorth> have you checked the offsets with ctrl-b?
15:58:58 <supermop_> no i should catch a tram accellerating and try that
15:59:24 <supermop_> all my articulated trams have their parts too close together
15:59:38 <supermop_> whereas my buses have the opposite issue
16:00:19 <supermop_> maybe i'll add invisible 1 length segments between
16:00:27 <supermop_> but the _ view looks good
16:03:53 <supermop_> hmm need to fix poles on unspooled
16:06:05 <andythenorth> making newgrfs spawns to-do list items
16:16:39 <supermop_> maybe i'll use the little 3 length tram as my dummy engine for tiny trains
16:17:36 <supermop_> now should i reuse the short truck beds as wagons, or steal some from andy
16:20:05 <supermop_> i could reuse the antelope cars i drew for andy, but they are a bit too Foster-ish for this set
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16:22:37 <supermop_> forgot that i made these
16:22:46 <supermop_> dont have a psd for them though
16:26:57 <supermop_> that much CC blue and green together can make the spritesheet look muddy
16:27:15 <supermop_> but then it is way too bright when you chose certain CC
16:30:59 <supermop_> coding a couple EMUs sounds shockingly simple now as compared to a year ago
16:31:34 <andythenorth> supermop: doing a train set next?
16:31:55 <supermop_> i'd still rather see an Iron Crane roster
16:32:17 <andythenorth> I need to pick up IH again :P
16:32:23 <andythenorth> integer lengths :)
16:32:29 <andythenorth> redraw all the things
16:32:56 <supermop_> im wondering if i might use that emu though as a basis for one of the missing styles in my set though
16:33:04 <supermop_> without front gangway
16:33:24 <supermop_> need a 60s/70s ish style and a 80s ish
16:34:09 <supermop_> 1890s will probably be same as the 1920s but with open sides and platforms at ends
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18:50:15 <andythenorth> supermop_: well _I_ commented on your thread
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19:06:51 <frosch123> are they still built like that?
19:07:04 <frosch123> with hardly any vision on the track
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19:12:35 <andythenorth> the obscured vision design was partially due to labour relations
19:12:49 <andythenorth> it required two workers in the cab to see both sides
19:13:20 <andythenorth> it was a compromise that allowed railroads to introduce diesels without strikes from firemen and engineers
19:14:50 <andythenorth> it might be an urban myth
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19:42:55 <crem> I've started in 1920 and none of trains/cars are available. Expected? :) Do I have to install some more gfx?..
19:43:32 <V453000> home :D I think it's time for TREES
19:43:36 <V453000> also it's wine o clock
20:05:22 <supermop_> andythenorth: did you drive them about yet?
20:06:28 <supermop_> andythenorth: only some railroads had that labor issue
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20:07:49 <supermop_> that is only some were wary about the better visibility leading to staff reductions. I believe in the 40s and 50s those E units, like your sante fe were staffed by two drivers anyway
20:08:36 <supermop_> probably on a railroad by railroad basis, either based on their company rules or relations with labor
20:09:04 <supermop_> i don't think any union actually demanded poor visibility
20:09:16 <supermop_> but it may have assuaged fears
20:09:25 <Alberth> crem: what newgrf are you using?
20:09:50 <crem> OpenGFX, but I've already restarted from 1925
20:10:08 <Alberth> opengfx like default, so around 1950
20:10:22 <Alberth> a bit earlier, have look at the wiki
20:10:44 <Alberth> ie it's like default, only a little different
20:10:57 <supermop_> also i've heard some crews felt unsafe with less locomotive if front of them in case of a crash - some would drive theirs with cab at rear like in a steam locomotive
20:11:09 <supermop_> see "high short hood"
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21:27:36 <supermop_> andythenorth: is there a need for parcel trams? do tramway trains cover it?
21:27:59 <supermop_> setting aside realism, is it more fun to have them
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21:28:38 <andythenorth> you need parcel trams
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22:06:06 <andythenorth> badass snowplough
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22:54:34 <Wolf01> andythenorth: a bit expensive, not like the real one but still a bit
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23:27:05 <andythenorth> Wolf01: seen any technic 2018 leak images?
23:27:35 <Wolf01> Like a Mack flatbed truck
23:28:29 <andythenorth> pulls like a Mack truck
23:30:17 <supermop_> last diesel tram, a 130 passenger DMU basically,
23:30:30 <supermop_> costs 1.3 M won/year to run
23:31:14 <supermop_> last articulated bus, which holds 96 passengers
23:31:25 <supermop_> costs 300,000 won/year
23:31:40 <supermop_> again, while driving
23:31:47 <andythenorth> automate costs :)
23:32:28 <supermop_> cant do the math i wanted to do in a switch in nml
23:32:43 <supermop_> so i used a formular in spreadsheet
23:33:29 <andythenorth> reduce muda and mura
23:35:27 <supermop_> also: the cheapest to operate electric tram is more than twice the cost of the most expensive diesel bus
23:35:43 <supermop_> so i guess i can just halve one or double the other
23:36:26 <supermop_> thats for a capacity of 40 in the tram vs 96 in the bus
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23:38:46 * andythenorth lost in Toyota Production System wiki pages :P
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