IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-17
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00:00:14 *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
00:18:23 <Marenz> I just started playing this game the first time
00:19:09 <Marenz> Have some bus system up and running. However, I discovered that one of my stations says "Acccepts: Nothing" (translated, probably not literally that), where as the other stations say "Accepts: Passengers"
00:19:37 <Marenz> Any idea why it wouldn't accept anything?
00:21:27 <Marenz> I also noticed that the bus driving to it seems to never unload its passengers
00:27:02 <Wolf01> No houses in the catchement area?
00:29:15 <Marenz> Frankenmünster says "Nimmt an: Nichts" (accepts nothing) where as another station Flensdorf says "Nimmt an: Passagiere" (accepts passengers)
00:29:19 <LordAro> yeah, looks like nothing in the catchment area
00:29:37 <LordAro> some houses only accept "half" a passenger, which rounds down
00:30:17 <LordAro> there's an option when you place stations to see catchment area, and what they accept
00:30:38 <Marenz> Does it make sense to have buses drive to multiple stations?
00:31:45 <LordAro> it's ultimately up to you :p
00:31:54 <LordAro> this game is not exactly "hard"
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10:00:20 <andythenorth> what’s the grey dot per-group in group window supposed to show?
10:03:19 <andythenorth> wiki says it will show profit / loss
10:12:58 <LordAro> profit/loss compared to the previous year, iirc
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10:55:28 <crem> Roundabouts where you need to turn more than 360 degrees are not that rare though. :) Let me find an example.
11:03:35 <Wolf01> There's no sign which forces you to do that
11:07:15 <crem> true, but for medium and large cars it's pretty hard to do otherwise. Motorbikes can surely save some mileage though.
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11:09:50 <_dp_> there are plenty of roundabouts where you need to do few cycles to figure out where the heck you need to exit it
11:11:59 <andythenorth> if I ruled the world
11:12:29 <andythenorth> - accept savegame breakage, against strict rules for when it’s accepted
11:13:19 <andythenorth> - reduce multiple implementations of same affordance by deleting some (e.g. two vehicle list windows, three pathfinders etc)
11:13:54 <andythenorth> - encourage patchpacks, including using the OpenTTD compile farm, as per NRT
11:14:20 <andythenorth> - grind through many many UI tweaks, improvements, things that suck
11:14:46 <andythenorth> - recruit new developers with commit rights by watching who has proven themselves in patchpacks
11:15:40 <andythenorth> - continue extending newgrf, GS, AI
11:15:55 <andythenorth> - build a functional testing suite
11:16:39 <andythenorth> - set out strong policy on suggestions, patches, contributions, so that expectations are fair and motivation of contributors isn’t destroyed
11:20:18 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> - encourage patchpacks, including using the OpenTTD compile farm, as per NRT <- this is one of the main points, what would happen if the current maintainer of the compile farm leaves?
11:23:56 <andythenorth> who is the current maintainer? o_O
11:26:06 <Wolf01> The one you contacted to get NRT into compile farm?
11:27:28 <peter1138> main functionality wise
11:27:33 <Wolf01> For some values of working, yes
11:27:34 <planetmaker> I would recon TB, RB and quak can mess with the CF?
11:28:38 <peter1138> big features don't need to be finished and completed before integration
11:32:00 <LordAro> i agree with andythenorth
11:32:06 <Wolf01> I would like to address the worse problems before the integration
11:32:27 <LordAro> naturally, my opinion matters even less than his :p
11:32:41 <andythenorth> peter1138: NRT totally works, except the bits that don’t
11:33:49 <andythenorth> Wolf01: what’s the remaining list of issues?
11:34:27 <Wolf01> We could allow cities to build roadtypes in future
11:34:47 <andythenorth> oh the whole “is it the right implementation” thing as well
11:36:30 <Wolf01> But the first thing is to patch NML and document the features (also the ones not actually used) so that we wouldn't have broken grfs when the features will be implemented
11:44:41 <milek7> on topic of roundabouts, recently here many intersections were transformed into mini-roundabouts :D
11:46:26 <Wolf01> Yes, they do that almost on every intersection here
11:59:29 <peter1138> "10-year-old rape victim, who was not allowed to have abortion by Indian Supreme Court, delivers baby girl"
12:17:07 <andythenorth> Wolf01: what’s not patched in NML? o_O
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12:19:36 <andythenorth> supports all current features afaik :)
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12:19:48 <Wolf01> Yes, "current" is the key word
12:20:16 <andythenorth> patching NML is usually piss easy
12:20:25 <andythenorth> grfcodec seems to ‘just work'
12:20:33 <andythenorth> renum is a special place of its own
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12:25:45 <Wolf01> Hmm, freenode has problems with spambots... I wonder how much it will take for them to come to OFTC too
13:00:07 <crem1> I still understand why they exist. Is that IRC spam efficient? I bet noone ever bought what they spammed about.
13:11:58 <Wolf01> This time they spam really bad things
13:12:01 <Wolf01> [12:23:12] -christel- [Global Notice] In light of the wave of spambots sending links to child pornography images, we have chosen to update our default umodes to include +R (blocking messages from unregistered users). To allow such messages, /mode yournick -R. Apologies for the disruption and the inconvenience.
13:13:00 <crem> We should all move to discord. :) Although spammer rades are not uncommon there too.
13:16:53 <jgkamat> Ugh slack is terrible :(
13:17:20 <jgkamat> They blocked my browser so I cant access it anymore
13:17:43 <crem> it is. But in general I'd prefer there would be only one chatting app. I hate having gazilion of apps with subset of friends in every on them.
13:17:58 <jgkamat> crem: move everyone to irc
13:18:10 <jgkamat> Or check out matrix.org
13:18:24 <crem> :) They don't agree to move!
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13:43:22 <Wolf01> I moved my group from whatsapp to telegram even if they didn't agree
13:46:03 <Wolf01> If only there is a multiplatform, multiprotocol, stable, easy to use (I don't care much about this, but others do) chat app for smartphones...
13:47:39 <andythenorth> this needs a newgrf fix
13:47:49 <andythenorth> maybe there should be a ‘fix irritations’ newgrf :P
13:48:38 <Wolf01> We should add an "abandoned" state to houses, and only the abandoned ones could be overbuilt
13:48:41 <crem> Do you know any long (multihour) openttd gameplay video with relaxing music on background? Or without music, I can do that myself.
13:48:58 <andythenorth> there are some yogscast let’s plays
13:49:09 <andythenorth> and someone who plays FIRS (\o/)
13:49:27 <crem> like from few years ago?
13:50:14 <crem> They were not that exciting, they only played for a few years, without really knowing what to do.
13:50:29 <planetmaker> Wolf01, threema works nicely... but yes, not multi-protocol
13:51:24 <Wolf01> Also some protocols like whatsapp don't allow 3rd party services to connect to them, they even banned telegram2whatsapp bridges
13:52:32 * andythenorth picking them off one at a time
13:52:40 <planetmaker> want to reduce it to 0?
13:52:55 <andythenorth> that would be…satisfying :)
13:52:59 <andythenorth> but probably cheating
13:53:16 <andythenorth> what would you do? Close them all, or rm -r FS?
13:53:57 <Wolf01> truncate table flyspray_tasks
13:54:18 <andythenorth> would make frosch sad :)
13:54:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you have admin on FS?
13:54:49 <andythenorth> I have rights for closing issues, but otherwise limited
13:55:00 <andythenorth> Wolf01 and LordAro should have more rights
13:55:08 <Wolf01> update flyspray_tasks set status = 'closed'
13:55:47 <Wolf01> I won't give me so much power
13:55:47 <peter1138> delete from flyspray_tasks
13:56:04 <_dp_> 2664 is not about newgrfs as I see it but the very mechanics itself
13:56:20 <_dp_> too many theathers is just one of the results of that mechanics
13:56:59 <andythenorth> Wolf01: you have to not abuse it :)
13:57:11 <_dp_> also it's kind of wrong, iirc even unfinished houses produce passengers, so effect on transportation isn't that great is it may seem
13:57:51 <andythenorth> _dp_: what do you think the core issue is?
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13:58:06 * andythenorth has interpreted it as ‘towns upgrade to smaller popn buildings
13:59:06 <_dp_> andythenorth, I don't rly see it as an issue but rather some downsides of current mechanics
13:59:18 <Wolf01> andythenorth: I'm a kid (specifically a 15 years old kid in the body of a man twice his age) and I will abuse it for sure, even if I won't
13:59:24 <_dp_> it makes sense to downgrade pop to build like commercial building
14:00:57 <_dp_> also don't see any good alternative here without completely overhauling town growth mechanics
14:01:15 <andythenorth> which changes base game :P
14:01:38 * andythenorth pretty certain that newgrf can fix the majority of it
14:01:41 <andythenorth> if somebody cared
14:02:28 <_dp_> newgrfs can offer more houses so it doesn't look weird as a town
14:02:54 <_dp_> but can't do much about stats effect of the mechanics
14:03:14 <_dp_> like huge pop drop when town starts growing
14:03:33 <_dp_> or huge pop gain when it stops for than matter)
14:03:36 <Wolf01> Are we really sure that town growth is really the same of the TT one?
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14:05:04 <_dp_> from what I know it's very close at least
14:06:10 <_dp_> but there sure are some minor differences
14:07:09 <Wolf01> Also... "we don't want to change the base game" is the same excuse Blizzard used to explain why they didn't want to overhaul the game mechanics, but they added visual zoom and you can keep an eye on a bigger part of the map now... the more you see...
14:07:36 <stefino> Hello, I have a question about grf IDs. Can somebody tell me if are IDs "MI" and "MK" free to use for new graphcs sets? Thanks :)
14:08:41 <_dp_> imo there is no real need to keep mechanics of base game. besides, openttd is pretty far already in some areas
14:11:14 <andythenorth> I can never remember how to translate the grfid though :P
14:11:30 <andythenorth> it’s ascii->hex or so
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14:11:49 <Wolf01> I think town growth can be changed without any problem, it changed already to allow road grids
14:12:03 <andythenorth> it’s a social problem
14:12:07 <andythenorth> how should it be changed?
14:12:15 <andythenorth> who deals with all the pissed off people
14:12:30 <andythenorth> I am +1 to breaking more stuff, but eh
14:12:34 <andythenorth> it’s not free :)
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14:12:37 <Wolf01> People are already pissed off
14:12:39 <_dp_> only thing I care is that it doesn't break citybuilders too much :)
14:13:07 <andythenorth> there is a newgrf towns spec, but the implementation is incomplete afaik
14:13:11 <Wolf01> I would make cities grow more near stations instead of pseudo random growth
14:13:19 <andythenorth> and GS seemed to make newgrf towns redundant
14:13:36 <andythenorth> but then only one GS per game
14:13:42 <andythenorth> so utility GS are a dead concept
14:13:59 <andythenorth> and you can’t have pool GS, because that would be a disaster
14:17:44 <Wolf01> Make OTTD like OpenRA, you start it and chose what you want to play
14:17:54 <_dp_> GS is so handicapped, I'm surprised people manage to do anything useful with it
14:18:02 <Wolf01> Hardcode FIRS and some GS on OTTD
14:18:34 <andythenorth> _dp_: mostly, they don’t
14:18:46 <andythenorth> the absence of GS is noticeable
14:18:56 <Wolf01> Or provide curated grf/gs/ai/scenario presets
14:18:57 <andythenorth> GS is crippled by newgrf
14:22:04 <_dp_> andythenorth, is it? they serve a different purpose
14:22:12 <_dp_> at least from mp perspective
14:22:25 <andythenorth> GS can’t control industry (because newgrf)
14:22:32 <andythenorth> GS can’t control cargo (because newgrf)
14:22:41 <andythenorth> GS can’t control vehicles (because newgrf)
14:22:51 <andythenorth> GS can’t control railtypes (because newgrf)
14:22:58 <andythenorth> GS can’t control houses (because newgrf)
14:23:03 <andythenorth> it’s a pattern :)
14:23:47 <_dp_> well, GS is server-side so it can't rly control stuff the same way as newgrfs do anyway
14:24:28 <andythenorth> what would you want more control of?
14:26:11 <_dp_> andythenorth, network clients
14:26:33 <andythenorth> what would you do to them?
14:26:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, houses won't be bad too, like GS can build house, but only random, not a specific one in a specific place.
14:27:43 <_dp_> andythenorth, scrolling viewport is firs thing coming to mind
14:28:08 <_dp_> andythenorth, but I guess admin actions won't be bad too, like kicking
14:28:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, at least know them rly, GS has no concept of clients whatsoever atm
14:29:41 <andythenorth> could have a random tunnel builder :P
14:30:00 * andythenorth wonders where GS logs to
14:30:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, yep, and roads
14:30:28 <Wolf01> _dp_: gs should be able to provide full featured tutorials such as funding and closing industries, change production, grow a city, build houses and roads in precise places, build transport infrastructures for player
14:30:31 <_dp_> andythenorth, I thought of creepy road building GS but couldn't think of any use for it)
14:30:40 <andythenorth> pikka did that in an AI
14:30:51 <andythenorth> if you could feed it ascii art that would be interesting
14:31:06 <andythenorth> puts swearwords all over the map
14:31:36 <andythenorth> Wolf01: most of those utility functions are of zero use because only one GS per game
14:31:48 <andythenorth> and who wants a monolothic GS that does all those things?
14:31:58 <_dp_> Wolf01, tutorials won't be bad but I'm more itrested in mp stuff honestly
14:32:00 <andythenorth> player-triggered scripting?
14:32:12 <_dp_> btw, GS can scroll players in sp but not mp
14:32:12 <Wolf01> A tutorial provided with the game to help newcomers?
14:32:33 <andythenorth> didn’t someone work on that?
14:32:48 <Wolf01> Yes, there's a scenario IIRC
14:33:18 <andythenorth> functional testing GS of more use
14:33:39 <andythenorth> log actions, match up with crashes, assertions
14:33:48 <andythenorth> build a specific map, deterministically
14:34:03 <andythenorth> save screenshots on intervals, use visual diff to check the content
14:34:10 <andythenorth> compared to expected result
14:34:57 <andythenorth> run it on nightly builds
14:35:05 <andythenorth> probably a bit prone to spurious failure though
14:36:04 <_dp_> speaking of mp stuff GS aside server has nearly zero influence over the game, it's can't even stop player's action properly
14:37:09 <_dp_> and from GS it can't stop it at all
14:38:07 <andythenorth> GS can’t run that fast
14:38:22 <andythenorth> it’s on interval
14:38:35 <andythenorth> we’d need an event bubbling system to trap player actions
14:38:53 <_dp_> it can't even update goals fast enough atm
14:39:07 <_dp_> coz 1 goal = 1 command = 1 tick
14:39:11 <andythenorth> I would strip out a bunch of openttd, add in more customisation points and let people run free with mods :P
14:39:22 <andythenorth> but eh, it’s a big ask for the current code
14:39:38 <andythenorth> then again, GS was “impossible” for years, and then it just appeared :)
14:41:50 <_dp_> btw idk when newgrfs gained ability to do logic but now it feels like the worst decision in a whole game
14:42:05 <_dp_> it should be some js-like client-side GS imo
14:43:16 <andythenorth> that would desync in MP
14:43:31 <_dp_> andythenorth, that's why I said client-side meaning both sides ofc
14:43:49 <_dp_> andythenorth, like newgrf does but in a proper language and not some pile of hacks
14:44:08 <andythenorth> horse is out of that stable and about 5,000 miles away
14:45:20 <_dp_> hm, mb not be that far actually... with versatile enough platform it may be possible to implement backwards compatibility on it
14:45:45 <andythenorth> it wouldn’t matter if newgrf was newgrf, js, squirrel, whatever
14:45:48 <andythenorth> the problem is that it’s arbitrary content
14:46:14 <andythenorth> can’t script arbitrary content
14:46:27 <andythenorth> can’t do a tech ladder
14:46:31 <andythenorth> can’t control towns
14:46:35 <andythenorth> can’t control industries
14:46:41 <andythenorth> can’t control cargos
14:47:39 * andythenorth wonders what happens if there are multiple GS
14:47:44 <andythenorth> how bad can it get?
14:47:47 <_dp_> well, it's not hard to do in a single script, but making them work with each other will be hard
14:48:22 <_dp_> andythenorth, right now you just can have multiples, but they seem to merge ok
14:49:16 <_dp_> at least btpro seems to be fine with merging everything in one big GS
14:56:51 <_dp_> for mods to work with each other they should be using same API's but API can be in mods too if there is a proper dependency management
14:57:41 <_dp_> eg you can't have two cargo types API in game but you can have one train mod and one station mod if they work on same cargo types
15:04:58 <_dp_> oh, and what I rly miss is ability for server to push some configuration stuff on player without requiring him to go and download newgrfs
15:06:00 <_dp_> or small gameplay tweaks
15:07:53 <_dp_> some things like changing price for one train are nearly impossible atm
15:08:09 <_dp_> you have to clone whole newgrf
15:08:57 <_dp_> peter1138, if price is in callback?
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15:43:21 <supermop> what's andy getting up to this morning
15:44:26 <supermop> need to finish my rv grf so i can release it as road candy before andy takes that name
15:46:20 <andythenorth> also closing FS issues
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16:34:25 <supermop> so today it will be 82 degrees Fahrenheit
16:34:32 <supermop> 30 something for the rest of you
16:34:41 <supermop> yesterday it was nearly 90
16:34:55 <supermop> this is not thaat shocking in new york in august
16:35:34 <supermop> what was shocking was that uniqlo had not a single short sleeve shirt for sale, other than like tennis shirts and t shirts
16:35:57 <supermop> if i want to buy a shirt to wear to work on a 90 degree day, i must do so in march i guess
16:36:11 <andythenorth> strikes me it would spawn requests from people who had accidentally just sold all their vehicle
16:36:31 <andythenorth> so probably people would want a confirm
16:36:53 <andythenorth> but do we need it?
16:37:07 <supermop> does feel stupid to buy a brand new manley morel or whatever just to scrap it
16:37:42 <supermop> andythenorth: maybe a way to disable auto renew or whatever per group or vehicle?
16:37:52 <andythenorth> that is also requested
16:38:09 <supermop> so trains you are running into the ground before scrapping don't get renewed
16:38:34 <supermop> well consider this - i only use auto replace per group usually
16:39:08 <supermop> i think people have a legitimate confusion as to why replace and renew behave so differently
16:39:22 <supermop> and are enabled from totally different places
16:39:26 <andythenorth> that’s why I’m -1 to adding more
16:39:57 <supermop> i guess i am suggesting to move the renew functionality to where replace lives
16:40:37 <supermop> "Start replacing vehicles", "start renewing vehicles", "stop replacing vehicles"
16:40:49 <supermop> or allow replacing like with like
16:41:23 <andythenorth> I would file most of it under consist management
16:41:34 <andythenorth> but eh, we have to keep the old methods too
16:41:44 <supermop> renew is burried in settings where it is more like turn it on or off once ever, not multiple times per game as need arises
16:41:44 <andythenorth> so it won’t happen :)
16:42:23 <supermop> i mean the settings about when to renew, and cash on hand threshold could stay in settings
16:42:38 <supermop> but what breaks if the toggle button is in the vehicle list?
16:42:40 <andythenorth> be easier to build a vehicle management tool and make them explicit
16:43:25 <andythenorth> for amusement, ctrl-click the train list on global toolbar
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16:47:21 <supermop_> power cut out at office
16:47:34 <andythenorth> too much AC demand :P
16:49:01 <supermop_> our server over heats a lot
16:49:40 <supermop_> because one of the partners of a firm we share space with is very stingy with the ac
16:49:55 <supermop_> and turns it off entirely over night and weekends
16:53:52 <_dp_> good alternative would be to add "go to depot(and sell)" order
16:55:22 <_dp_> but it's probably way to much clicking without hotkeys tho
16:55:36 <_dp_> but at least it fits "do once and forget" workflow
16:56:23 <andythenorth> 550 FS issues :)
16:56:32 <andythenorth> I rejected “got to depot and sell” also
16:56:42 <andythenorth> it’s a dumb use of an order :)
16:57:05 <andythenorth> if we had templated consists, you’d just point the vehicle to a null consist template
16:57:07 <andythenorth> and it would get scrapped
16:57:31 <supermop_> i wont complain if you add consists
16:57:53 <_dp_> andythenorth, but we don't so it's a pain to get rid of vehicle atm
16:58:10 <andythenorth> I just delete them in depots :)
16:58:13 <andythenorth> using the buttons provided
16:58:22 <andythenorth> I agree, it’s less fun than other things
16:58:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, for that you need to wait for it to get in depot
16:58:38 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> for amusement, ctrl-click the train list on global toolbar <- wtf we still have 2 UIs for vehicle lists?
16:58:42 <andythenorth> I’m not arguing it’s good
16:58:43 <_dp_> andythenorth, I usually just send them and let them rot there
16:58:56 <andythenorth> but given that there are almost no active devs anyway
16:59:05 <andythenorth> if we’re making armchair wish lists
16:59:13 <andythenorth> we might as well wish for good features
16:59:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, goto and sell should be easy
16:59:18 <andythenorth> not piling crap on creaking foundations
16:59:28 <andythenorth> there would have to be a confirm step
16:59:33 <andythenorth> for all those users who need that
17:00:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, when selling from orders? no need imo
17:00:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's pretty much the same as sending them to depot, no need to confirm that
17:00:55 <andythenorth> you’d do it per vehicle?
17:01:00 <andythenorth> or from the group window?
17:01:32 <_dp_> andythenorth, I'm talking about sell order, whether it's shared or not depends on situation
17:01:42 <andythenorth> sell order piles more on orders
17:01:52 <andythenorth> orders are ~broken already :)
17:01:59 <andythenorth> also it enables rondje
17:02:12 <andythenorth> so there would need to be an advanced setting for it
17:02:44 <andythenorth> winning by sending vehicles on a one way route
17:03:04 <_dp_> andythenorth, there is a much better solution to that
17:03:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, not allow selling vehicle in other depot for some time
17:03:27 <supermop_> it would be pretty low on the wish list for me
17:04:44 <supermop_> it would be useful, but i understand not adding it for sake of keeping things more clean
17:04:56 <Wolf01> Could (Should) we rewrite some duplicated UIs to be changed by a button on them instead of opening one or the other with CTRL?
17:05:04 <_dp_> andythenorth, also it's kind of irrelevant to having such order since you need to buy them manually so can sell them manually as well
17:05:16 <andythenorth> Wolf01: that’s a question about backwards compatibility eh?
17:05:30 <andythenorth> we iirc had to keep the old one around to appease players who can’t/won’t use the new one
17:05:35 <Wolf01> Backward compatibility is about core
17:05:42 <Wolf01> I don't give a fuck about UI
17:05:50 <andythenorth> so maybe we should talk about savegame compatibility
17:05:56 <andythenorth> and player compatibility
17:06:07 <andythenorth> quite a lot of our limitations are imposed by player compatibility
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17:07:40 <Wolf01> Get the vehicle list as an example, you have 2 UIs for the same thing and a setting which controls the one to open when clicking on the toolbar with or without CTRL
17:08:15 <Wolf01> If we change the groups by adding a button to show/hide the groups panel?
17:08:45 <andythenorth> another option (almost same really): just make one good thing
17:09:01 <andythenorth> instead of 1 that is mostly good, and 1 or 2 more that are mediocre or broken
17:09:01 <Wolf01> Yes, that's the main reason behind this
17:09:10 <Wolf01> Fewer things to maintain
17:09:11 <andythenorth> but must be kept to avoid upsetting people who wish to live in the past
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17:09:24 <supermop_> what is the other vehicle list?
17:09:38 <andythenorth> the non-groups version
17:09:51 <Wolf01> You will continue to have a setting which controls if the UI opens with the groups panel open, but no more 2 UIs
17:09:53 <_dp_> andythenorth, by the cost of upsetting people who wish to live in the future :p
17:10:06 <andythenorth> everything tends to stasis
17:10:18 <andythenorth> we likely attract the kind of player who also likes to preserve steam trains
17:10:21 <andythenorth> nothing wrong with that
17:10:32 <supermop_> yeah would a show/hide groups options help?
17:10:39 <supermop_> i do not like steam trains
17:10:44 <andythenorth> all that’s needed is courage
17:10:47 <supermop_> i barely even like locomotives
17:11:10 <supermop_> my biggest complain about vanilla vehicles is not enough MUs and no EMUs
17:11:22 <andythenorth> Wolf01: can you patch to remove the old UI?
17:11:25 <andythenorth> no switches, no options
17:11:35 <supermop_> i do like my headphone jack though because i still use headphones
17:11:48 <supermop_> and don't want separate headphones just for my phone
17:12:20 <andythenorth> Wolf01: maybe we should have a set of branches for stripped down ottd
17:12:41 <supermop_> no chiseled borders on UI elements?
17:12:49 <andythenorth> with a single patchpack branch that gets compiled by the compile farm
17:13:00 <Wolf01> No, just remove ye olde features
17:13:01 <andythenorth> separate to new features, just seeing what could be binned
17:14:04 <Wolf01> Nope, that would be a derived branch
17:14:06 <andythenorth> like ModernIE :P
17:14:41 <andythenorth> the removal list probably isn’t that long
17:15:03 <Wolf01> Remove pathfinders, just use the best ones
17:15:26 <_dp_> Wolf01, along with ships xD
17:15:42 <supermop_> someone had a request to borrow pathfinders
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17:16:21 <Wolf01> Remove newgrf support, gs, ai
17:16:40 <Wolf01> And replace with "resources"
17:17:13 <Wolf01> Ai as gs, gs as ai, newgrfs mixed up with gs
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17:20:44 <Wolf01> BTW, I could start by removing the duplicate UI
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17:22:04 <_dp_> imo having such depressive branch solves nothing
17:22:54 <andythenorth> finds out what breaks when things are deleted
17:23:05 <andythenorth> code bonfire is always good
17:23:53 <_dp_> andythenorth, I reckon pretty much everything can be removed
17:24:04 <_dp_> andythenorth, question is what should be
17:24:15 <andythenorth> non-canonical things
17:24:27 <andythenorth> i.e. 2 or 3 ways to do things where 1 is enough
17:24:45 <_dp_> then it has to be done in trunk
17:24:55 <_dp_> nobody cares if you remove something in a branch
17:25:17 <andythenorth> are you proposing more of these mercurial patch queues? :D
17:25:53 <andythenorth> or to put the question: how does it get into trunk without a branch?
17:26:17 <Wolf01> Just patch directly trunk
17:26:18 <_dp_> well, I mean if that's just a depressive branch that is not supposed to ever be merged
17:26:27 <andythenorth> all this crap with patches on FS, patches on forums, people with personal mercurial queues
17:26:35 <andythenorth> is a crap way of developing
17:26:48 <andythenorth> github -> fork -> feature branch -> compile farm
17:26:53 <Wolf01> _dp_: then why continue developing for the game, almost everything would never be merged
17:27:50 <_dp_> Wolf01, isn't it why it stalled? ;)
17:28:06 <_dp_> feature branches are cool
17:28:25 <_dp_> but you were first talking about some weird branch to just see what can be removed
17:28:49 <andythenorth> well I was serious, but then Wolf01 got more creative
17:28:53 <Wolf01> Cleanup code to reduce the maintenance a bit
17:29:06 <Wolf01> Also reducing redundancy
17:29:19 <andythenorth> there isn’t that much duplication, but what these is could go
17:29:26 <andythenorth> it would mean breaking saves, or migrating them
17:30:02 <Wolf01> Even the settings vs options... stupid distinction, just make settings a tab panel of the options
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17:30:29 <andythenorth> that was work in progress
17:30:52 <andythenorth> think it stalled :)
17:31:07 <andythenorth> at least difficulty settings got deleted
17:31:32 <andythenorth> get peter1138 to commit it :)
17:31:47 <Wolf01> Yes, that was too much difficult to fine tune as involved too many different settigns which even altered the gameplay
17:32:03 <_dp_> what I'm saying is that removing something mostly needs a decision not coding
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17:32:15 <_dp_> removing before making decicion is pretty much pointless imo
17:33:14 <Wolf01> What do you need to decide? Remove the old limited thing and keep the new with all the functions
17:33:56 <Wolf01> Then, maybe, change the new to be able to look like the old by clicking on a button
17:34:37 <Wolf01> (this one could break many things and every feature should be aware of the state of the UI)
17:35:20 <andythenorth> just remove the old :P
17:35:28 <andythenorth> and make the new good, if not already :P
17:36:50 <andythenorth> also, pretty old, can close?
17:40:17 <Wolf01> I think it is still valid, but badly proposed
17:50:32 <_dp_> oh, nvm, reading it back I guess I just misunderstood that removal thing
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17:57:54 <_dp_> tho it's funny that removing gui can theoretically break tutorial gamescripts
17:58:23 <_dp_> iirc ui access for tutorial is limited to toolbar atm so probably no real thread here
17:58:48 <_dp_> but if there was more api it could be an issue
17:59:04 <_dp_> which makes me think that tutorial gs isn't rly a good idea
17:59:58 <_dp_> it requires too much ui specific api for basically just a one gs
18:00:25 <_dp_> doesn't make much sense to have several tutorials, just make a one that's good
18:01:39 <_dp_> and code it into game, not gs
18:04:25 <Wolf01> "If _settings_client.gui.advanced_vehicle_list > 1, display the Advanced list | if _settings_client.gui.advanced_vehicle_list == 1, display Advanced list only for local company | if _ctrl_pressed, do the opposite action (Advanced list x Normal list)"
18:04:51 <Wolf01> Ok, I understand 0 and 1
18:05:00 <Wolf01> What does it shows for 2?
18:05:13 <Wolf01> Or what should it show
18:06:28 <supermop_> only groups and no vehicles
18:06:51 <supermop_> a list of every available vehicle that you do not currently own
18:07:12 <supermop_> vehicles that would have been nice to have in the newgrf but are not included
18:10:53 <Alberth> Wolf01: not show at all?
18:11:17 <Wolf01> I tried it on a MP game, but it was showing the same thing for both settings
18:11:28 <Wolf01> Maybe wrong savegame as example
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18:48:58 <_dp_> and now Alberth too says it's worth spamming irc with patches :/
18:49:20 <_dp_> so, should I do it one-by-one or just fs list is enough? :p
18:54:32 <_dp_> that whole station bulding-joining interface is crap
18:54:44 <_dp_> I tried to imrove it once but failed sadly
18:55:04 <andythenorth> it’s interesting watching my kids play
18:55:07 <andythenorth> and what’s intuitive
18:55:15 <andythenorth> and what is fucking batshit crazy :)
18:55:27 <andythenorth> ctrl-click stations, completely baffling
18:55:55 <andythenorth> ctrol-click cloning, once explained, no problem
18:56:14 <andythenorth> one is much more direct than the other
18:56:43 * andythenorth waits for V453000’s to have kids playing
18:58:24 * andythenorth waits to be able to type without errors
18:59:40 <_dp_> I had an idea to separate ctrl into multiple keys so it will have consistent meaning
18:59:47 <_dp_> like shift is always estimation
19:00:00 <_dp_> would be nice to have a key that is always removal
19:00:17 <_dp_> and I guess one meta key for everything else
19:00:18 <andythenorth> how about a hotkey that just nukes vehicles en-route?
19:00:28 <andythenorth> like in Lemmings, when you could kill individual lemmings
19:00:36 <andythenorth> that would save sending them to depot for scrapping
19:00:46 * andythenorth is slightly serious actually
19:00:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, that's even better :)
19:01:05 <andythenorth> there was iirc, shotgun, and nuke all
19:01:10 <andythenorth> nuking all was always so satisfying
19:01:31 <Wolf01> <_dp_> I had an idea to separate ctrl into multiple keys so it will have consistent meaning <- add more UI buttons
19:02:22 <_dp_> when I though about doing new trains game I planned to not have depots at all, just buy trains at stations and sell, idk, I guess anywhere is fine indeed
19:02:49 <_dp_> Wolf01, I don't usually click ui buttons :p
19:02:57 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> how about a hotkey that just nukes vehicles en-route? <- I was totally like "why not add a function where you click multiple times a vehicle and that breakdowns and explodes if you click on it too much?"
19:03:40 <Wolf01> Like on warcraft/starcraft with critters
19:09:32 <andythenorth> game is getting harder
19:09:53 <andythenorth> closing more tickets might mean diagnosing bugs, or implementing features :P
19:11:30 <Wolf01> And someone should start to do that
19:13:29 <andythenorth> if no-one else has ideas, it’s probably needing closed
19:15:31 <_dp_> there was bug with similar assertions somewhere (to 5949)
19:28:04 <NGC3982> in ecs, is there an age limit to cement?
19:28:21 <NGC3982> cant find it in the cargo list.
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19:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i think my old fritzbox just gave up, like 3 months after the 5-year warranty ended
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19:45:58 <NGC3982> whatever a fritzbox is, it has an unfortunate name.
19:46:34 <andythenorth> things there could be less of: Microsoft Auto Updater dialogs
19:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: it's the most popular router/modem in germany
19:53:17 <andythenorth> can’t see any more FS to close at all
19:53:55 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: also, fritz is a regular name, it doesn't have the weird connotation that it got in english
19:54:31 <NGC3982> i know, its just funny to see as a swede (since we dont have that much fritz-names)
19:54:50 <NGC3982> its sad that a normal name receives that connection outside of germany
19:54:54 <LordAro> has anyone considered a system for submitting patches/merge/pull requests
19:55:01 <LordAro> that's separate to flyspray
19:55:03 * andythenorth considered github
19:55:11 <andythenorth> like ~everyone else
19:55:27 <andythenorth> but because of the [not trying to persuade anyone] aversion to git here
19:55:33 <andythenorth> I went looking for mercurial alternatives
19:55:40 <andythenorth> but I didn’t find one yet that’s free
19:55:43 <LordAro> there must be a svn thing somewhere
19:55:51 <andythenorth> I _think_ bitbucket does mercurial, but not sure
19:56:11 <andythenorth> but I couldn’t find a bitbucket free plan
19:56:20 <LordAro> but i'm not sure offloading it to a 3rd party service would be a good solution
19:56:38 <andythenorth> imho, it would be a lot better :)
19:56:44 <andythenorth> running own services is bonkers
19:58:01 <milek7> why not git? svn is slooow
19:58:14 <Wormnest> Bitbucket is free, you can even have private repos for small teams for free iirc
19:58:24 <andythenorth> Wormnest: can you find a link?
19:58:30 * andythenorth uses commercial bitbucket
19:58:39 <andythenorth> but I cannot find anything about open source free, except dead links
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19:58:57 <_dp_> doesn't github support mercurial too?
19:59:06 <andythenorth> I only use git by choice
19:59:24 <_dp_> and bb is nice too, free for public repos indeed
19:59:38 <andythenorth> some things offer hg-git bridge crap
19:59:42 <andythenorth> but that’s bound to fail
19:59:54 <Wormnest> I have private repos let me see if I can a page about it
19:59:59 <LordAro> github does actually offer a svn checkout ability, iirc
20:00:31 <_dp_> haven't tried adding a lot of people to public repo tho
20:01:00 <milek7> trac might have some plugins for svn/hg
20:01:22 <LordAro> trac seems like it would have potential, as does this "reviewboard" thing
20:02:03 <andythenorth> if we adopt trac, I’m leaving the project :(
20:02:16 <Wormnest> Free for teams up to 5
20:02:52 <andythenorth> the thing is, github won
20:03:05 <andythenorth> and if it can’t be github, why pick a non-winning alternative?
20:03:26 <_dp_> agree with andy, even tho I like bb more
20:03:44 <andythenorth> oh do we use Bamboo for the build? :)
20:04:28 <LordAro> apparently no one dares touch the setup though, so it only runs ancient compilers
20:05:54 <_dp_> LordAro, it looks like for any product not just compile farm (not sure if there is compile farm actually)
20:06:50 <andythenorth> eh so what happened to the linux repo history then? o_O
20:07:36 <andythenorth> Bamboo could run our tests?
20:07:38 <LordAro> literally the reason git exists
20:07:52 <andythenorth> I don’t know much about Bamboo, other than Atlassian marketing at it me in BB
20:08:14 <LordAro> where's frosch so that we can beg for access to poke around
20:10:02 <andythenorth> our tests would run really quick right now :)
20:10:14 * _dp_ just noticed Bamboo is atlassian producd
20:10:27 <_dp_> guess they failed at throwing marketing at me :p
20:10:47 <LordAro> _dp_: hence why i pointed it at you :p
20:17:16 <Wolf01> LordAro: I think flyspray is the best one, all the other started to use AJAX a lot, most of them are horrendously slow, confusing UI, not free
20:17:41 <LordAro> ajax is hardly a limiting factor
20:17:48 <LordAro> most of the internet uses it these days
20:18:28 <andythenorth> FS can’t do pull requests
20:19:03 <LordAro> i think some way to ease code reviews would help quite a bit
20:23:40 <Wolf01> <LordAro> most of the internet uses it these days <- yes, but it seems heavy and slow on those systems
20:24:05 <Wolf01> Also it really slows down the filling of the required fields
20:25:01 <LordAro> on shitty sites, yeah
20:25:40 <LordAro> but anyway, i'm really liking the look of this reviewboard - it looks like you can just upload a diff and say "review pls"
20:26:34 <Wolf01> I tried the ones for minecraft and intellij... puke all around
20:26:59 <Wolf01> BTW, I think it should be possible to branch fs and add git hooks somewhere
20:27:01 <LordAro> well that's jira for you
20:27:28 <_dp_> Wolf01, wow, I got much better speed on mobile internet on the edge of its reception. I literally had to put modem in a colander to get a better signal
20:27:31 <LordAro> my understanding of fs is that it's not a great program for hacking on
20:28:57 <Wolf01> _dp_: that's my average line status
20:29:04 <andythenorth> I am kind of dubious about things that need work
20:29:09 <andythenorth> when we’re short of people who can do work :)
20:29:33 <Wolf01> _dp_: when they nuke the central once in a month, I'll go at hyperlight speed for a while
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20:50:11 <LordAro> frosch123: oh, the * sizeof change doesn't help
20:51:21 <frosch123> and casting to size_t?
20:51:36 <frosch123> though i guess MemSetT does that
20:52:20 <frosch123> i definitely do not like the byte cast
20:53:21 <LordAro> it's not ideal, but it is what both length and statspec->lengths are
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21:01:07 <andythenorth> can we drop support for Mac OS X 10.4 and so?
21:01:17 <andythenorth> current version is 10.12
21:01:29 <andythenorth> Apple policy is usually n-2
21:01:49 <andythenorth> I do have a computer in the loft that might run it
21:02:00 <LordAro> we don't have that sort of support for linux
21:02:01 <andythenorth> but I don’t really want to get that out to debug the multiple 10.4 bug reports
21:02:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: all osx related limitations are due to our outdated compile farm
21:02:10 <andythenorth> oh yes, that was explained to me :P
21:02:36 <LordAro> frosch123: is there anything in particular that makes it outdated? just a lack of anyone updating it?
21:02:56 <frosch123> tb has something half-finished
21:03:07 <frosch123> but all farms actually need updates
21:03:39 <LordAro> maybe tb could publicise what he's got done :)
21:03:56 <frosch123> like we compile for seveal deprecated linux distros, but not for the current ones
21:04:20 <andythenorth> ok so the OS X 10.4 issues are somehow blocking official binaries running on PPC macs
21:04:20 <frosch123> and i believe some win8-10 issues are also related due to compiling with too old msvc/sdk
21:05:04 <peter1138> Updated to revision 27893.
21:06:11 <LordAro> frosch123: heh, i'd imagine so
21:06:55 <frosch123> for example: afaik michi committed something to disable the gui zoom on high dpi screens
21:07:02 <frosch123> but people still complain about it
21:07:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: new openttd.org :) or better: find a way to move everything to github or similar
21:07:54 <frosch123> does github have a compile farm for paying folks?
21:08:16 <LordAro> nope, but you can ... farm out.. to CI services like travis, appveyor, etc
21:08:24 <andythenorth> it has something
21:08:40 <LordAro> gitlab on the other hand, i believe does have something builtin
21:09:01 <andythenorth> we just need a CI server no?
21:09:05 <_dp_> why not move to atlassian stuff if you already have their farm?
21:09:29 <frosch123> we use atlassian because it is free
21:09:41 <frosch123> though we don't use jira
21:10:23 <_dp_> frosch123, do you use anything but bamboo?
21:10:31 <_dp_> jira and bitbucket look decent
21:10:39 <frosch123> i think there was a second atlassian thing
21:10:48 <frosch123> _dp_: i use jira at work
21:11:11 <frosch123> problem with jira is that it does everything on the server, so you cannot open two filtered list in two tabs
21:11:18 <_dp_> I used it too but that was long ago
21:11:20 <frosch123> since the list content/filter state is on the server
21:11:37 <_dp_> figured it should be ok as I don't remember anything about it xD
21:11:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need two users?
21:11:59 <LordAro> frosch123: that's horrifying
21:11:59 <frosch123> two ip addresses work
21:12:34 <frosch123> possibly port forwarding to/from vm or different browsers might help as well
21:12:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so a virtual machine
21:12:42 <frosch123> but work desktop + work notebook work
21:13:56 <andythenorth> jira entirely devides people
21:13:59 <andythenorth> some love it, some hate it
21:14:20 * andythenorth steered away from jira, in favour of hosted redmine
21:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i set up my work thin client to log into the server and the laptop (each using one screen), i haven't had the courage to tell the admin who was like "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING" when i started half a year ago
21:14:27 <andythenorth> bitbucket is nice though
21:15:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess work jira is comparable stable like devzone redmine :p
21:15:27 <frosch123> it breaks down at least once a week
21:15:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: is it self-hosted?
21:15:34 <_dp_> how about youtrack? seems to work with bitbucket. haven't tried it yet but my friend was telling me it's good
21:15:41 <_dp_> he works @ jetbrains tho xD
21:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> seriously, they tried to get me fired after two days, because i dared to log into the fileserver from the laptop, which nobody in the company ever did before
21:15:44 <frosch123> though i would rather blame it on our admins than on jira :p
21:15:52 <andythenorth> self-hosted is the plague
21:16:07 <andythenorth> it’s commodity, buy it commodity off the shelf
21:16:17 <frosch123> but yes, self-hosted
21:16:23 <frosch123> lots of secret stuff on it
21:16:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what does jira actually do anyway?
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21:17:18 <andythenorth> there is literally a ‘buy now’ button for $0.00 Travis CI for open source
21:17:23 <andythenorth> but then it’s on my account
21:17:29 <andythenorth> how do we do accounts? :P
21:17:30 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: jira has as many plugins as eu4 has dlc
21:17:36 <andythenorth> do we have 1Password? :P
21:17:42 <LordAro> travis-ci is getting worse these days
21:18:03 <LordAro> its images hardly get updated
21:18:16 <LordAro> circle-ci looks more promising though - looks like you can just arbitrary docker image
21:18:18 <andythenorth> we do run on our compile farm actually
21:18:24 <andythenorth> we use commodity hosting
21:18:29 <LordAro> and appveyor can do windows
21:19:15 <andythenorth> do we cross-compile, or do we run an OS X compile?
21:19:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: from tickets, to scrumboards, planning, roadmaps, statistics, to employee superveilance
21:19:56 <frosch123> though the latter is uncommon in "socialist" countries like germany :p
21:20:28 <andythenorth> it’s the primary feature no? :P
21:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there are laws against it :p
21:21:30 <andythenorth> hmm, I could rent us an OS X compile farm on native mac hardware
21:21:34 <andythenorth> but not at $49 / month
21:21:44 <andythenorth> if it was $20 / month maybe
21:21:47 <michi_cc> andythenorth: OSX is a cross compiler (which is the main reason for old) as Apple doesn't allow OS X on non-Apple hardware.
21:22:31 <michi_cc> Windows and Linux OTOH are just Someone Has Got To Do It.
21:23:40 <frosch123> michi_cc: afaik there was a way more modern cross-compilation option based on clang
21:24:11 <andythenorth> shall I just run CI on my laptop? :P
21:24:54 <LordAro> "We also offer the Seed plan for OS X open-source projects. Contact us at billing@circleci.com for access. If you are building a bigger open-source project and need more resources, let us know how we can help you!"
21:25:02 <LordAro> circle ci looks quite promising, really
21:25:03 <andythenorth> we could try and persuade them
21:26:31 <andythenorth> LordAro: email them? o_O
21:26:45 <LordAro> i don't have a openttd.org email address :)
21:27:01 <LordAro> probably worth investigating linux builds first
21:27:08 <LordAro> (& windows w/ appveyor)
21:28:28 <andythenorth> do we have openttd money donation money left? o_O
21:31:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: LordAro: circleci builds linux and osx, but not windows?
21:31:55 <orudge`> frosch123 / andythenorth: Yes, a fair chunk of it. Need to tot up the latest accounts, but there's enough!
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21:32:22 <frosch123> LordAro: who are they tarketing?
21:45:38 <andythenorth> most of the CI things I found were targeting iOS / Android
21:45:53 <supermop_> hmm reading about the 'new' scenario format, i had an idea
21:46:21 <supermop_> the road layer needn't use 9 pixels for each road tile
21:46:33 <supermop_> instead you could use a 16 color png
21:47:00 <frosch123> we discarded that idea :)
21:47:01 <peter1138> what patches was i working on?
21:47:16 <andythenorth> peter1138: some in FS :P
21:47:17 <supermop_> one color for each road combination + 1 color for no road
21:47:20 <frosch123> supermop_: the goal of the new scenario format is that you can use external sources for the input
21:47:24 <andythenorth> something about ships using up CPU
21:47:47 <andythenorth> ^ such glamour :)
21:47:57 <peter1138> where did my diffs go... :S
21:48:24 <peter1138> didn't upload these
21:48:38 <peter1138> -rw-r--r-- 1 petern petern 2986 Apr 6 21:03 fs6145.diff
21:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: i don't think too much colour-coding is a good idea
21:48:41 <andythenorth> checked your github? :P
21:48:56 <supermop_> frosch123: what if you used only one pixel per tile, and if you neglected to differentiate color, game would try to interpolate a road using pathfinder?
21:49:13 <peter1138> ah yes, ships going off in random directions, only to then _still_ cause lag
21:49:25 <frosch123> supermop_: would be best for country roads
21:49:37 <andythenorth> send them round in a circle :P
21:49:55 <frosch123> supermop_: but doesn't replicate manual work from scenario editor with multiline roads
21:49:56 <andythenorth> or to nearest depot…and sell them :P
21:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: i think 95% of cases should be covered by automatically connecting neighbour tiles
21:50:27 <peter1138> the fundamental issue was that it was trying to route to somewhere too far away
21:50:38 <peter1138> ship with no orders == ship going to 0,0
21:50:38 <supermop_> new feature in 1.8.0: all ships on map go straight to a depot and get sold, no matter what
21:50:59 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: exactly
21:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the tricky part is where you don't want that, like parallel roads of a highway
21:51:33 <supermop_> if you need to do detail 'point work' then use colors?
21:51:50 <andythenorth> griefers are broing
21:52:01 <andythenorth> but actually my typo is probably true too
21:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: or separate layers?
21:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> roads won't connect with roads from another layer (intersections will have to appear in both layers)
21:53:39 <supermop_> i wonder if that is less intuitive than colors
21:53:53 <supermop_> i could see different layers per road type
21:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: colours will be too tedious to remember "which colour do i need now for this road?"
21:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: roadtype is easier as colour, though
21:54:59 <supermop_> what if the 3x3 pixel method is retained and used for all other layers too?
21:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: trouble with the 3x3 plan was that it can't be scaled
21:55:32 <supermop_> so a 'block' of 9 pixels, 5 of which are wate, becomes a tile of water
21:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: that sounds pretty useless
21:56:18 <supermop_> for all other layers, average the 3x3 square to get value of tile
21:58:00 <frosch123> you can also overlap the 3x3 squares on all sides by 1 pixels
21:58:14 <peter1138> so i kept these diffs around... which ones did i forget to delete? :p
21:59:03 <peter1138> never deleting that
21:59:43 <frosch123> oh, you are in an andy mood to delete things :)
22:00:19 <peter1138> no i'm looking at fs bug patches i made but never committed
22:02:07 <frosch123> i have some time next week. should be able to get to arolard/adf/wolf patches :)
22:03:43 <andythenorth> is there anything useful I can do with the crash reports?
22:05:43 <frosch123> some of them are diagnosed
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22:08:12 <frosch123> anyway, do you have a list of bugs which can be fixed "fast"
22:08:45 <andythenorth> my judgement of ‘fast’ is probably flawed
22:10:12 <_dp_> btw, it's nice when someone posts info from crash.dmp
22:10:33 <frosch123> i always do that when it works
22:10:51 <frosch123> but it does not work automatically if an assertion failed, that needs a real msvc
22:10:53 <_dp_> that way someone on linux like may decide if it's worth looking into
22:11:02 <frosch123> also lately crash.dmp are huge so many are unable to upload them
22:11:57 <frosch123> _dp_: yes, we have a script for that, but as said, it fails in case of "assertion failed"
22:12:08 <frosch123> then it only has a backtrace up to the assertion, which is useless
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22:25:59 <milek7> appveyor works ok for windows
22:26:09 <milek7> and is suprsingly free
22:32:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: _dp_: i added a new status "With patch"
22:33:32 <andythenorth> LordAro: so it builds :)
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22:36:25 <_dp_> frosch123, though as a reporter I still can't use it to indicate that I also attached a patch
22:37:32 <_dp_> frosch123, also it kind of conflicts with "confirmed" status
22:37:38 <_dp_> though it's not being used anyway
22:38:32 <_dp_> I guess it should imply confirmation
22:39:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: _dp_: i added some more rights to the "regular patchers" group, and moved _dp to it
22:39:44 <andythenorth> does LordAro have rights to?
22:39:44 <frosch123> can you check whether you can now do something which you clearly shouldn't?
22:39:54 <frosch123> fs permissions are so ridiculous sometimes
22:40:06 <andythenorth> I can’t see settings, and I am happy with that
22:40:24 <andythenorth> he didn’t want it
22:40:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, you should now be able to change status and close without assignment :p
22:41:04 <Wolf01> <frosch123> wolf doesn't <- Better, I don't trust wolf
22:42:16 <_dp_> frosch123, I can't quite think of anything I can't do now
22:42:29 <_dp_> frosch123, like I can edit tasks, close them
22:42:35 <frosch123> _dp_: delete and edit others comments
22:42:36 <_dp_> frosch123, what is there else to do?
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22:43:08 <_dp_> frosch123, no, doesn't look like it
22:46:33 <_dp_> so, is ok to set 'with patch' to everything with patch? like even if it's a highly questionable feature that has little to no chance of getting in trunk imo?
22:47:01 <frosch123> i mainly intended it for bugs
22:47:05 <andythenorth> there’s already a patch category for non-bugs
22:47:24 <frosch123> feature requests with patch should probably be patch
22:47:33 <frosch123> or all patches should be feature request with patch :)
22:48:00 <andythenorth> my vision of the bright future involves a zero count in the ‘patch’ category
22:48:01 <_dp_> frosch123, sometimes there are patches that don't rly introduce anything I though patch category was for them
22:48:09 <frosch123> i guess a "patch" category is more useful than "feature with patch"
22:48:52 <frosch123> i don't think there is a definion anywhere what was intended
22:49:13 <_dp_> 'with patch' is rly more of a label if anything imo, sadly no labels in fs :(
22:49:19 <andythenorth> bug tracker taxonomies are nearly as unresolvable as spaces vs. tabs
22:49:20 <Wolf01> I think that tags should have been better, but they are in fs1.0+
22:49:34 <andythenorth> I asked TB for an upgrade :)
22:51:46 <andythenorth> loan of hundreds of millions
22:52:07 <_dp_> well, I guess for now I'll only set "with patch" to confirmed bugs with reasonable patches
22:52:13 <andythenorth> ctrl-alt-c for money
22:53:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, not that bad of an idea for mp actually
22:53:02 <Wolf01> Make finite money in the map, every 5-10 years increase the amount
22:53:27 <_dp_> andythenorth, will make it a bit easier to balance economy
22:56:35 <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, nvm, I did'n quite read it all. dynamic loan max is bad imo
22:57:06 <_dp_> andythenorth, but increasing range for initial loan isn't bad
22:58:08 <andythenorth> that’s different :)
22:58:41 <andythenorth> ‘bad patch’ doesn’t mean ‘bad idea’ :)
22:58:55 <andythenorth> but bug tracker doesn’t need to capture all the ideas
22:59:03 <andythenorth> most good ideas come back again and again
22:59:51 <Wolf01> Fs1.0 tries to find similar tasks when opening new ones
23:00:02 <andythenorth> that will never work :)
23:00:07 <Wolf01> So it prompts the user if he wants to open the task anyway
23:04:45 <_dp_> andythenorth, main idea there is to do dynamic loan which should be rejected entirely imo as it brings up a lot of issues for no apparent benefit
23:05:06 <_dp_> andythenorth, and with an implementation like that it's pretty much equivalent to double income
23:05:34 <_dp_> andythenorth, so, actually, bascost mod will do the same
23:06:42 <frosch123> LordAro: "gcc-4" sounds pretty broad
23:07:02 <LordAro> just the name of the docker image :)
23:09:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, I've seen similar feature somewhere and it wasn't that bad
23:09:56 <Wolf01> What, the limited money or the similar tasks? :D
23:11:22 <_dp_> besides, if anything that mean less bugs ^^
23:14:40 <andythenorth> totally off topic
23:14:53 <andythenorth> but maybe it would be worth giving newgrf vehicles some ‘livery’ var
23:15:16 <andythenorth> there are so many crap hax on cargo subtypes
23:16:04 <LordAro> frosch123: know anything about building with static-icu? the build failed before of it :(
23:16:06 <supermop_> isn't it kind of late for andy to be up?
23:16:31 <supermop_> i thought there was already a livery thing?
23:16:32 <LordAro> sleep is for those who aren't redesigning newgrf cargo subtypes
23:17:17 <andythenorth> afaik, the issues are only (1) what’s the UI (2) pretty much every author has a different idea of how this pony works, and none of them will get the perfect thing
23:20:28 <frosch123> LordAro: any specific link, i get a lot of spinning wheels
23:20:36 * andythenorth designs a deliberate awful livery spec
23:20:52 <andythenorth> which forces every grf to declare all the liveries statically
23:21:02 <andythenorth> and then choose which ones apply to the vehicle
23:21:09 <LordAro> not sure if i'm missing a package or something else
23:21:10 <andythenorth> and they’re limited just to that grf
23:21:21 <andythenorth> so auto-replace can preserve liveries
23:21:40 <andythenorth> but it’s hard to abuse liveries for hax like refittable engines, gearboxes, capacities etc
23:22:04 <andythenorth> probably bedtime :P
23:25:00 <frosch123> LordAro: i can't tell. farm.openttd.org seems to be broken, so i cannot check there
23:26:16 <LordAro> it could well be just that i need to build icu myself
23:27:08 <andythenorth> it’s funny that reading ~840 tickets (even testing some crashes) is preferable to finishing FIRS 3 :P
23:27:34 <frosch123> LordAro: it says the same if i compile with that option on my machine
23:28:23 <LordAro> well, it's not needed for standard "does this compile" build anyway
23:33:16 <LordAro> i'd guess i'd want to add some sort of "build nightly release" and "build actual tag release" as well
23:33:28 <LordAro> don't think either are too difficult
23:34:01 <milek7> for what icu is used anyway?
23:37:39 <LordAro> milek7: unicode support - sorting and rendering
23:38:21 <LordAro> i have to say, i'm not entirely sure why the release builds have that static, but nothing else
23:39:15 <frosch123> because libicu is abi incompatible even between minor versions
23:39:52 <frosch123> iirc they did some magic to include the version number into the symbol names or something
23:40:16 <frosch123> basically to force incompatibility and not having to deal with weird reports
23:40:27 <frosch123> well, c++ libs are troublesome anyway
23:41:19 <planetmaker> did I grasp that right that you toy the idea to move the CF to something less unique, more easy to maintain?
23:41:33 <milek7> c++ libs? aren't these could be incompatibile even with diffirent compiler versions?
23:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you should develop an automatic CF maintainer
23:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that will solve all maintaining problems
23:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think this is how web frameworks are created)
23:44:34 <milek7> hmm, no, it looks like itanium abi is used these days so there shouldn't be problems with name mangling
23:45:37 <frosch123> milek7: for name mangling there are only 2 standard afaik, itanium and some microsoft thing. i think the issues come with stack unwinding
23:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone have a 250Ohm resistor (value 8 cents) lying around? i could order one, but it costs 6€ shipping
23:46:33 <frosch123> i have 150 ohm and 10 kohm
23:46:50 <frosch123> maybe you can combine them in serial and parallel to get 250
23:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it must be between 250 and 500
23:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> is there some electric base kit i could order?
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23:54:13 <_dp_> what is "requires testing" status for?
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23:54:49 <_dp_> isn't any unconfirmed bug require testing?
23:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like "i don't want to deal with this right now"
23:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's because i'm not working on any tasks :p
continue to next day ⏵
