IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-18
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00:02:27 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> is there some electric base kit i could order? <-- any kind of arduino starter kit I guess :)
00:04:56 <Wolf01> _dp_: requires testing mean that someone got assigned to the task, so the task is not new, but also not completed
00:05:24 <_dp_> Wolf01, there is also "assigned" status
00:06:05 <Wolf01> Assigned is just assigned
00:08:02 <_dp_> speaking of assigned I don't rly get it either, there is a separate Assigned To field for that
00:08:28 <Wolf01> The status should change accordingly with that
00:09:26 <_dp_> Wolf01, I think that's mixing up different semantics
00:09:43 <_dp_> assigned task can still be new or confirmed etc.
00:10:15 <Wolf01> New should only be that when a user creates it
00:11:20 <_dp_> Wolf01, then you loose ability to express smth like "I'm going to work on this bug but haven't confirmed it yet"
00:11:43 <Wolf01> New->(assign to x)->assigned->...->require testing->confirmed->resolved
00:13:14 <_dp_> Wolf01, what? no, confirmed just means that bug exists, not that it's tested
00:13:55 <_dp_> with current workflow in openttd it seems patched and tested = resolved
00:14:44 <Wolf01> Ok, we could get an agreement for states
00:15:22 <Wolf01> But when a task is being worked by someone, it must have at least assigned people and shouldn't be new
00:15:39 <_dp_> yeah, would be nice to have. for states and general workflow
00:15:48 <_dp_> also some guidelines on priority and severity
00:16:10 <Wolf01> "If all are critical nothing is critical"?
00:19:12 <_dp_> hm, on a second thought I guess it makes sense an extra assignes status that pretty much same as "new" but for assigned tasks. just to distinguish them from completely new ones
00:20:14 <LordAro> "Just give me a write access to the repo, and I'll merge all the glorious touchscreen-related fixes right away :D"
00:20:26 <_dp_> Wolf01, yep, I was just thinking from issue solving perspective and it's meaningless for it but from overall task management I guess makes sense
00:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but keep in mind that any rules concerning criticality should address the number of earrings properly
00:23:33 <Wolf01> Yes, critical ones should be evaluated first and fixed, or fix the severity if was set wrong :P
00:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you can't fix it immediately, it can't have been critical in the first place?
00:27:07 <Wolf01> No, I didn't mean that, I mean that if a kid comes and wants a critical bugfix for a translation I think is not really critical... a reproducible crash when creating a new game is critical
00:31:15 <_dp_> any reproducible crash should be quite high imo
00:31:33 <_dp_> as you never know in what weird form it can manifest
00:32:25 <Wolf01> There is crash and crash :P
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00:34:53 <_dp_> in case of memory corruption having crash is much better than weird unreproducable crap all over the program
00:34:58 <_dp_> or desyncs in openttd case
00:37:06 <_dp_> or I guess any invalid game state can have similar effects, not just memory corruption
00:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound like "critical" to me
00:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "critical" might be a thing that makes the game unplayable for a large number of people
00:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like once we did a release where trains couldn't leave the depot (0.4.6 or something)
00:44:07 <_dp_> I'm not saying "critical", just higher than regular bug
00:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> also, 0.4.0 had a "critical" bug, but i don't remember what it was
00:47:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i marked a bug report as "critical" once that probably didn't deserve that. i think it was some newgrf-related crash on game start
00:51:41 <Wolf01> Rename critical to unplayable
00:52:15 <Wolf01> "I can't change the company color, the game is unplayable"
00:54:41 <_dp_> Wolf01, that might actually be true if he's colorblind :p
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02:36:39 <_dp_> and I can't even remove those assignments now :(
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08:34:22 <andythenorth> why don’t we sleep more?
08:35:26 <LordAro> in your case, is the answer not related to you?
08:40:51 <andythenorth> well either yes, OR I don’t go to bed early enough
08:55:26 <andythenorth> hmm ticket count has gone up
08:56:02 <andythenorth> _that’s_ not playing the game right :P
08:56:42 <andythenorth> LordAro: can Circle aslo build NRT?
09:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: certainly, it's never "playing the game right" if you have only one metric to judge your work on
09:11:06 <andythenorth> oh you want a balanced scorecard? o_O :P
09:11:18 <andythenorth> what’s the balance to ‘reduce ticket to win'
09:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: even a "scorecard" is, ultimately, "one metric"
09:13:39 <andythenorth> are you suggesting all things resolve to one metric? o_O
09:14:07 <andythenorth> if I collapse it to ‘winning’ or ‘losing’, that’s inevitably one metric :P
09:14:42 <LordAro> andythenorth: don't see why not, although you'd have to make it "the github way" i.e. a pull request to (currently) my fork
09:14:59 <andythenorth> that bit of github boggles my brain :P
09:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem with metrics is, they never truely cover the "optimal" case. so once you're done optimizing for that one metric, every action you do towards the true optimal case will look like "unoptimizing" towards that metric
09:15:35 <andythenorth> can’t just point a Circle job at a different remote?
09:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so, you have to basically abandon this metric
09:16:02 <LordAro> the config's in the repo, so it has to compare against something
09:16:18 <LordAro> in fact, it'd have to be added regardless
09:16:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you leave me with no counter argument :P
09:18:09 <andythenorth> LordAro: if were using it in production, would the config be in the ottd repo?
09:18:43 * andythenorth should probably just get a Circle account and try
09:19:42 <LordAro> also, it only seems to build to the master/default branch on github
09:20:00 <LordAro> (without pull request)
09:20:45 <LordAro> tbf though, i doubt you've done anything compiler specific
09:20:55 <LordAro> regression might be broken though :p
09:21:11 <LordAro> but since that requires a graphics set, i've not yet worked out how to solve that
09:21:31 <LordAro> guess i could download latest opengfx, but... ew
09:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't there a nogfx?
09:24:53 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: not afaik
09:25:14 <andythenorth> the game still ships not working out of the box?
09:25:23 <LordAro> andythenorth: regardless, i can't look at it until this evening, see if you can solve it by then :p
09:25:33 <LordAro> andythenorth: bootstrap system still works afaik
09:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends what you mean with "out of the box"
09:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it'll prompt you for automatically downloading a graphics set if you don't have one
09:26:40 <andythenorth> that is a PITA for automated testing
09:26:56 <andythenorth> although it’s great for testing the download prompt :P
09:27:37 <andythenorth> I might start a github repo for functional tests
09:27:47 <andythenorth> if it works, maybe we could add it as a remote to ottd
09:27:59 <andythenorth> then eventually move it into the project
09:28:19 <LordAro> the regression test is *sort of* functional tests
09:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: but still, i seem to remember a "graphics" set specifically for servers, which doesn't actually contain graphics
09:28:39 <LordAro> (runs an ai, checks values are what they are expected)
09:29:18 <LordAro> without being able to examine the farm.o.o system it's difficult to tell what it does
09:29:52 <andythenorth> do you get any logging output?
09:31:08 <LordAro> andythenorth: see bin/ai/regression
09:31:23 * andythenorth will look in a bit
09:31:39 <andythenorth> even some functional testing would seem like a win
09:31:46 * andythenorth wonders about making test case newgrfs
09:31:59 <LordAro> wonder if a dedicated server would be good enough to run the game
09:32:04 <andythenorth> presumably an AI can be made to behave deterministically?
09:32:25 <LordAro> especially when it's given the same save game
09:32:26 <andythenorth> and we can screenshot on deman
09:32:59 <LordAro> don't really need screenshots, can use the ai to query the gamestate
09:33:21 <andythenorth> I’m thinking about sprite regressions
09:33:25 <andythenorth> and newgrf features specifically
09:33:27 <LordAro> AIs should be able to get any information humans can by looking at the screen, remember
09:33:36 <LordAro> (functional informarion)
09:33:55 * andythenorth not trying to enforce a particular approach :)
09:33:58 <LordAro> sprite regressions... test it yourself and look at it? :p
09:34:01 <andythenorth> just trying to get a sense of what’s wise + possible
09:34:29 <Wolf01> Sprite regressions might fail a lot in presence of glitches
09:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, flickering sprites because of unresolvable sprite sorter issues
09:37:39 <LordAro> screenshota won't catch that
09:51:31 <Wolf01> FFFFFFppsfdfs.... it's already friday
09:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and i'm calling in sick...
09:53:17 <Wolf01> I've achieved nothing this week, I should have meet my friends for a day at the beach and no one show
09:54:13 <Wolf01> Also, I'm totally fine with breaking the town growth to make _dp_ happy
09:54:47 <Wolf01> I could do it, maybe I'll provide a patch even today
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10:35:04 <Wolf01> I need to understand better this one GrowTownWithExtraHouse(t1, TileAddByDiagDir(house_tile, target_dir));
10:35:23 <Wolf01> But I already made town grow houses on those angles
10:35:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what part do you not understand?
10:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> 's been ages since i looked at it)
10:36:12 <Wolf01> What could happen if I swap DiagDir with Direction
10:36:54 <Wolf01> I tried growing some cities in SE after swapping it and I don't see many problems
10:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> diagdir is for 8 angles (edges and corners), direction only for edges
10:38:10 <Wolf01> The function checks for distance from edge
10:38:27 <Wolf01> Also if the target tile is house or void
10:39:38 <_dp_> I found a bit of a bug in it yesterday, I'll post fix soon
10:39:44 <Wolf01> I think I could just check for DiagDir there
10:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: there exist some ancient patches that make towns build houses further away from the road
10:40:21 <Wolf01> It's no use to check for more than 3 tiles when building near edges
10:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can compare with those?
10:41:06 <Wolf01> If I don't understand what the vanilla code mean, I don't think I would understand it better with some ancient patch
10:41:22 <_dp_> building houses further is a bit too much of a deviation from current mechanics imo
10:41:54 <Wolf01> It already does it when replacing 2x2 houses ;)
10:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but about checking what functionality they touch, and whether it's the right way to do it
10:42:11 <_dp_> Wolf01, I know, but it's not very likely
10:42:43 <_dp_> in fact it can even walk-replace house to any distance, just chance of that is negligible
10:42:55 <Wolf01> Eddi, I know this, I already changed this code a bit for NRT, the problem is to avoid making more checks than required
10:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i touched this code ages ago, when i attempted making towns expand on slopes, instead of flattening everything
10:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which i seem to remember ended up as a one-line change
10:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> putting a "random(1 in 6)" in front of the "flatten" command
10:45:49 <Wolf01> The problem is counting the neighbours, if I increment the directions I should increment the limit too
10:46:07 <Wolf01> But why should I need to increment the directions here?
10:46:44 <Wolf01> Also, if I already have the house tile, why does it adds twice the same direction?
10:47:28 <_dp_> Wolf01, that a weird part of town growh, with enabled roads it can add two houses in one tick
10:47:37 <_dp_> Wolf01, probably to fill gaps in 3x3 layout
10:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that code exists
10:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> if 3 sides of the 3x3 grid are covered, it builds a house in the center
10:48:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (works also without grid)
10:51:27 <_dp_> I've no idea why it only does so with enabled roads but whatever, at least that allows do disable it :p
10:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: probably a forgotten corner case when disabling roads was introduced
10:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (i think the extra house is older than that)
10:58:22 <Wolf01> Nice that if you don't allow towns to build roads they still don't give a fuck and build roads
10:58:56 <Wolf01> And that's with vanilla 1.7.1
10:59:12 <Wolf01> I'm comparing the growth
10:59:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, wut, how did you get them to build roads?
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10:59:59 <Wolf01> Scenario editor, build a road layout, fund a town
11:00:21 <Wolf01> So I should fix even that one... later
11:00:59 <Wolf01> After 2 clicks on "expand" it prompts you with "towns can't build roads, enable them in settings > blah"
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11:04:24 <Wolf01> It only does this when funding a town, if you delete all the houses and expand, no more roads
11:05:22 <_dp_> interesting... it checks twice whether layout allows house, once in GrowTownInTile and once in CheckTownBuild*House
11:05:53 <Wolf01> Expected behavior: build only the seed tile road if no road is found near the tile
11:06:12 <Wolf01> Current behavior: don't give a fuck about the setting value
11:07:20 <_dp_> so there is actually no bug in my patch since I only avoided one check
11:07:52 <_dp_> still, should probably do it properly in case of some future changes
11:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'm afraid that change would also make starting a game with no roads enabled to only construct single road towns
11:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'd rather have a separate option in SE town creation window: empty/small/medium/large
11:13:43 <Wolf01> Yes, my thought too, maybe a check for SE?
11:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so empty would create a 0 house, 1 road town
11:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> leave the rest as is
11:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i need to get up and go to the doctor :/
11:15:29 <_dp_> Wolf01, what's up with right picture, does it not work with newgrfs?
11:15:49 <Wolf01> I didn't set up the grfs on dev
11:16:12 <_dp_> Wolf01, ah, it's unpached
11:17:06 <Wolf01> I'm glad it built the stadium in the 2x2 area which vanilla leaves empty :P
11:20:28 * andythenorth thinks there might be quite a lot of SE feature requests
11:20:36 <andythenorth> I *never* use SE except to test patches
11:20:42 <andythenorth> so I can’t judge them
11:20:51 <andythenorth> probably some consistent themes there though
11:21:05 <Wolf01> Yes, and I have a lot more feature requests for SE
11:22:15 <Wolf01> Also in all my tests no house was built in the middle tile of the 3x3 grid
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11:22:57 <_dp_> Wolf01, do you test with roads enabled?
11:23:57 <Wolf01> I'm cheching if by a chance the edit I've done breaks the layout
11:24:06 <_dp_> hm, I remember testing it long ago and it worked fine
11:24:12 <andythenorth> so many combinatorial things to test :P
11:24:49 <andythenorth> 4 road layout algorithms
11:25:11 <andythenorth> towns allowed to build roads or not
11:25:12 <_dp_> yeah, would be very nice to have some automatic tests for town growth... so many different cases
11:25:20 <andythenorth> town growth speed
11:25:46 <andythenorth> maybe Pikka was right, we should have done newgrf towns
11:25:52 <_dp_> gladly growth speed doesn't rly matter)
11:25:55 <andythenorth> it got bounced because ‘do it in GS'
11:26:00 <andythenorth> but GS is a shit solution for it
11:26:08 <andythenorth> road layout should be a newgrf thing
11:26:43 <Wolf01> I should change the checs
11:26:50 <andythenorth> we should burn some of it down
11:26:57 * andythenorth getting ahead of self
11:27:21 <andythenorth> placement checks are 100% something that newgrf could have handled
11:27:25 <andythenorth> road layouts....dunno
11:27:34 <Wolf01> I removed the grfs just to check
11:27:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, placement check includes layout check
11:31:09 <andythenorth> also signals should have gone to newgrf
11:31:19 <andythenorth> there is no reason for base game to provide semaphore vs. colour light
11:31:34 <andythenorth> combinatorial crap
11:32:30 <andythenorth> more cattle, fewer pets
11:34:11 <andythenorth> canals should go from base game
11:34:45 <andythenorth> this is completely impossible of course :)
11:34:49 <andythenorth> because savegames
11:35:48 <Wolf01> Convert all semaphores to light signals unless you have a grf loaded?
11:36:30 <Wolf01> Saveload already does stuff, why not?
11:36:55 <andythenorth> works when there is a valid A -> B type conversion I guess
11:37:02 <Wolf01> And you don't need to make new savegames to load on older versions
11:37:28 <andythenorth> I would apply “reduce features, increase moddability, repeat” to OpenTTD
11:37:40 <andythenorth> 1 and only 1 way provide built-in
11:37:50 <andythenorth> but configuration points exploitable by newgrf and GS
11:37:57 <andythenorth> and I would probably adjust GS somewhat
11:38:38 <andythenorth> and I would change the savegame promise from ‘perfect replica of your TTO game'
11:38:48 <andythenorth> to “doesn’t actually get corrupted"
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11:46:29 <_dp_> ok, I'm done with that patch, except for one redundant line it's perfectly fine
11:46:37 <_dp_> no bugs found no nothing :/
11:51:26 <_dp_> anyway, unless it's something big nobody will notice a change in town growth xD
11:53:44 <Wolf01> Why do you check for the corners and don't just try to build a house in all 8 directions instead of the previous 4?
11:54:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, it will drastically change probabilities for choosing house spots
11:54:44 <_dp_> since some spots will be accessible from different number of tiles
11:55:14 <Wolf01> Yes, as far as I can understand your code, when you hit a corner you always build a house there
11:56:08 <_dp_> Wolf01, no, there is a random check, it's a bit hacky but gives equal probability with other spots
11:56:22 <Wolf01> I made it so you can build houses diagonally even on U turns
11:56:43 <_dp_> if ((cur_rb & ROAD_X) != target_rb) return;
11:57:00 <_dp_> considers one of road bits as random for corner tile
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11:58:21 <_dp_> Wolf01, you mean U turn like with two road turns, not just road dead-end?
11:58:27 <_dp_> Wolf01, what's wrong with that?
11:59:06 <_dp_> hm.. that shouldn't work
12:00:53 <_dp_> Wolf01, single roadbit usually means unfinished road, it's quite annoying when towns start to build houses around it
12:01:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, I even had special road tool in cm client before that was changed
12:01:33 <_dp_> Wolf01, that build roads without half-tiles
12:04:49 <_dp_> Wolf01, though, did you make it so it can build on corners of u-turns but not in 4-adjacent tiles?
12:04:59 <_dp_> Wolf01, that's fine, I guess, just weird
12:05:32 <_dp_> Wolf01, can you post an image actually coz I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here
12:06:55 <Wolf01> Ok, the bottom right one is "valid"
12:07:36 <_dp_> ok, I got it now, I was thinking of completely different thing (one roadbit aka half-road tile)
12:07:46 <Wolf01> TileIndex house_tile = TileAddByDir(tile, RandomDir()); // position of a possible house <- I changed only this line
12:08:04 <Wolf01> RandomDir() instead of RandomDiagDir()
12:08:13 <Wolf01> (I made also the RandomDir function)
12:08:49 <_dp_> but on that picture I'm more worried about houses that are build straight on the end of road
12:08:54 <Wolf01> I would look at the checks to avoid blocking building roads in original and better layouts... on grids already works
12:09:25 <Wolf01> I think that's because I disabled road building by towns, so they just put houses everywhere
12:11:12 <Wolf01> No, it's missing a check
12:11:27 <Wolf01> Vanilla leaves that empty
12:11:28 <_dp_> well, that super annoying feature imo
12:11:38 <_dp_> for anyone who builds layouts manually
12:12:03 <_dp_> and it still can mess up automatic layouts
12:13:57 <_dp_> awful in competitive cb either
12:14:23 <_dp_> you can't just go and destroy house in cb, that's a huge setback
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12:18:59 <Wolf01> Automatic layouts work, now I must fix the original ones
12:24:20 <_dp_> I though of doing 8-tile random when I just started that patch but scrapped that idea pretty fast
12:24:38 <_dp_> except for adding houses in corner it changes a lot of other stuff and none of it in a good way
12:26:37 <Wolf01> With Direction you need to check in 2 more directions for the second tile and not just the next one
12:32:39 <NGC3982> i wrote last night about cement not being transportable with ecs while in early games. i found an old bug that was properly reported, but a very long time ago. do you know if its solved by configuration or something else?
12:34:58 <_dp_> NGC3982, I think cement is transportable on our ecs quest server but that's LL heritage, I've no idea how it works)
12:36:15 <NGC3982> i just noticed in a single player game and havent looked any further, unfortunately
12:38:27 <Wolf01> Is there a way to rotate a diagdir?
12:39:51 <Wolf01> I mean, I have NW direction and converting it to diagdir results in N, I want W too
12:41:39 <_dp_> Wolf01, diagdir is a single direction you probably want something else then
12:41:55 <_dp_> roadbits will do probably
12:43:32 <NGC3982> _dp_: i notice that the bug seems to depend on basic vector ii. interestingly enough, that server uses an older version than me.
12:44:10 <NGC3982> ill try the old one and see if the problem remains.
12:44:26 <_dp_> NGC3982, yeah, it's an ancient server :)
12:44:59 <_dp_> NGC3982, it also has some hacks like universal wagons iirc
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13:29:12 <__ln___> greetings again from the austro-hungarian empire
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13:31:59 <__ln___> austria is like germany, but with support for credit cards
14:05:37 <peter1138> need a new mobile phone
14:05:50 <andythenorth> there is phone, or there is Android
14:05:59 <andythenorth> I just buy phone, which has a fruit logo on it
14:06:04 <peter1138> yeah not getting an iphone
14:06:20 <andythenorth> I get whichever one the carrier gives me, then I don’t have to blame myself for the choice
14:06:26 <andythenorth> zero-regret strategy
14:06:36 <peter1138> i don't have a carrier
14:08:20 <peter1138> i had a virgin mobile payg sim in 1999
14:08:31 <peter1138> but lost that a couple of years ago
14:08:50 <andythenorth> everyone else I know seems to buy Samsung
14:08:54 <andythenorth> dunno what it means
14:10:35 <LordAro> people keep talking about wileyfox
14:12:24 <Wolf01> I can't understand people... "how do i make VS recognize ///< comment as a doxygen comment and not xml?" "put a \ before the <"... "maybe without changing the code?"
14:13:11 <andythenorth> can VS not learn language semantics? :P
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14:14:01 <Wolf01> VS defaults to xml when /// is used because it can create the documentation by itself
14:15:23 <andythenorth> why are timetables?
14:15:34 <andythenorth> they are the spawn of the devil as far as OpenTTD goes
14:15:42 <andythenorth> someone convince me they have a purpose? o_O
14:15:57 <Wolf01> I'm not able to use them
14:16:11 <FLHerne> You need them to make your non-full-load vehicles not clump
14:16:13 <Wolf01> I only find downsides when I try
14:16:24 <andythenorth> they don’t actually work
14:16:31 <FLHerne> They're about the most cumbersome and unsuitable way to do that, but eh
14:16:42 <andythenorth> I was going to file a bug report, but I was told that what I was reporting was expected behaviour
14:17:06 <andythenorth> there is some magic hotkey which is supposed to space the vehicles out, magically
14:17:14 <andythenorth> but it flat out doesn’t work for ships
14:17:15 <FLHerne> With the new-ish auto-start-dates, and tweaking up the duration so everything's not always late, they work
14:17:40 <peter1138> needs constant micromanaging
14:17:42 <FLHerne> Oh, I think I've noticed that
14:17:56 <FLHerne> (usually not enough ships on a route for it to make any particular difference)
14:18:10 <andythenorth> eh, back channel chat is naughty
14:18:30 <andythenorth> control pax/cargo production: newgrf
14:18:40 <andythenorth> control population growth: should be newgrf
14:18:42 <FLHerne> Worth noting he's got his own timetable patch, which is actually sane
14:18:48 <andythenorth> station rating: newgrf
14:18:53 <FLHerne> If you're the kind of person who wants micromanaged timetables
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14:19:19 <andythenorth> I don’t disagree with his game goals
14:19:21 <FLHerne> (whereas the current version is pretty useless either for micromanaging or just-working)
14:19:26 <andythenorth> well I do, but not virulently
14:19:30 <peter1138> i was asking a few months ago but nobody could explain timetables and what these patches do
14:19:43 <andythenorth> I disagree virulently with source code adjustments to make a particular play style
14:20:21 <andythenorth> it’s every kind of wrong
14:20:42 <andythenorth> peter1138 timetables /\o/\ meh
14:21:07 <peter1138> i never managed to make the current timetables do anything useful
14:21:28 <andythenorth> I use sometimes ‘wait for 10 days’ when starting buses or ships on a route
14:21:34 <andythenorth> because they’re too big for full load
14:22:02 <FLHerne> <andythenorth> control pax/cargo production: newgrf <- does FIRS have a parameter for that now?
14:22:52 <FLHerne> Atm I have a patch for that, because "fix it with a newgrf" only helps if you didn't already override all the behaviour with another one
14:23:02 <Wolf01> TF tries to send new vehicles to all the stations when starting multiple vehicles, trying to keep the separation and a coherent waiting time for cargo
14:23:04 <andythenorth> you have to fork the newgrf
14:23:11 <andythenorth> mods should be widely forked
14:23:37 <andythenorth> like SPI, and Auz Industries, and Leif stopped bothering me with suggestions I wouldn’t do and forked a Norwegian FIRS
14:24:00 <FLHerne> And forking a huge newgrf for orthogonal minor tweaks is better than having an option?
14:24:32 <FLHerne> Different industries is different
14:24:57 <andythenorth> I have three different views on this, and they’re not incompatible
14:25:00 <FLHerne> I mean, if the point of your grf is to add industries, and you want different industries, of course you want a different grf
14:25:18 <andythenorth> 1. FIRS provides _some_ control over production via the supplies boost parameter
14:25:28 <FLHerne> But the base amount of cargo you want isn't really tied to any industry grf
14:25:43 <andythenorth> 3. there should be a set of Economy methods in GS
14:26:13 <andythenorth> the Economy methods in GS should dump an economy level byte onto each house or industry tile
14:26:20 <FLHerne> Eh, GS is an even worse solution to anything
14:26:31 <andythenorth> newgrf should be able to optionally use that for production
14:26:44 <FLHerne> Because you can have exactly one, and creating n^2 scripts would be insane
14:26:53 <andythenorth> well GS is broken currently
14:26:59 <andythenorth> make a counter proposal?
14:27:40 <FLHerne> Just have a multiplier, either for production or vehicle capacity...
14:27:58 <FLHerne> Stick it in a newgrf var like the base costs if it makes people happy
14:28:39 <andythenorth> throw away newgrf production control? o-O
14:28:40 <FLHerne> Because there's not really any relation between newgrf industry strategies and the player's network-design preferences
14:28:41 <andythenorth> or something else?
14:29:30 <FLHerne> No, literally just a multiplier on top of whatever the newgrf says
14:29:37 <FLHerne> I guess that might break strings
14:29:45 <andythenorth> do you know how newgrf production works? o_O
14:29:51 <FLHerne> Well, not break, but make-inaccurate
14:29:56 <andythenorth> a multiplier could be done
14:29:59 <andythenorth> but it would be a car crash
14:30:21 <andythenorth> you have three places to deal with production
14:30:27 <andythenorth> also two text callbacks
14:30:49 <FLHerne> Would mess up balancing, so <or vehicle capacity> was the better idea probably
14:30:53 <andythenorth> you also have to factor in existing newgrfs that have concepts like refusing acceptance
14:31:09 <andythenorth> and limited total production reserves for mines etc
14:31:33 <andythenorth> vehicle capacity factor is interesting
14:31:38 <andythenorth> but why do it in the game?
14:32:12 <NGC3982> has there ever been any discussion on adding weather to ottd?
14:32:25 <andythenorth> let’s discuss that
14:32:48 <FLHerne> Because otherwise every newgrf needs to add such a parameter (or users will grumble, or locally patch their preferred newgrf or the game)
14:33:08 <andythenorth> FLHerne: it would save me doing it in all my newgrfs yes
14:33:38 <andythenorth> I can’t see many downsides, except it would “need” to be implemented both globally, and on a per-grf basis
14:33:44 <andythenorth> and maybe on a per-company basis in MP
14:33:46 <FLHerne> My general thought is that if something would be relevant to essentially all newgrfs of the type, it makes sense to have a global setting
14:33:54 <_dp_> I understand "should be mod" thing but not in case of newgrfs, newgrs are terrible for any king of logic or configuration
14:34:18 <andythenorth> that’s what GS is for
14:34:34 <andythenorth> GS is unusable of course
14:34:38 <FLHerne> Otherwise you change the parameters for some grfs and it unbalances everything because they don't have quite the same effect
14:35:01 <_dp_> yeah, they are kind of better suited except they can't do shit
14:35:30 <andythenorth> nobody wants to make the platonic perfect one-GS-to-rule-them-all
14:35:35 <andythenorth> so it’s not really used
14:35:53 <FLHerne> Would it be possible to have GS's claim 'write' access for a specific segment of the API?
14:35:57 <andythenorth> AIs with a UI for commands would be better
14:36:27 <andythenorth> literally the AI has a defined interface for player-triggered actions
14:36:35 <andythenorth> with appropriate buttons in the GUI
14:36:37 <FLHerne> e.g. you could have a GS that asked set town growth, but promised not to do anything else
14:36:46 <_dp_> It's mostly same with newgrfs, eg you can't have two newgrfs tweaking same industry so you eventually had to do one mega-grf
14:36:54 <FLHerne> That way you could add orthogonal GSs
14:36:57 <andythenorth> so much of this crap could be scripted
14:37:06 <andythenorth> like this ‘go to depot and sell’ thing
14:37:10 <andythenorth> that’s just an AI task
14:37:14 <FLHerne> Yeah, but at least you can have many newgrfs that do different things
14:37:33 <andythenorth> scoped to company objects
14:37:51 <FLHerne> Whereas currently, you can have exactly one GS that does one thing, unless it's an insane megalunaticGS that does everything and the kitchen sink in an unmaintainable way
14:38:04 <andythenorth> it’s failed to win
14:38:13 <andythenorth> unlike newgrf, or even AI
14:38:58 <FLHerne> Well, there's no market for GSs that just do small clever tweaks
14:39:20 <andythenorth> well it would be an insane thing to do
14:39:23 <FLHerne> Because if you have a GS that just does a small clever tweak, that's your GS allotment
14:39:24 <andythenorth> who’s going to use them?
14:40:58 <_dp_> FLHerne, yeah, I thought of pretty much the same api claiming yesterday. though more in a context of some newgrf-like gs that's client-side
14:41:29 <_dp_> FLHerne, you also need ability to override claims of other mods though to be able to extend them
14:43:14 <andythenorth> or built-in isolation
14:43:23 <andythenorth> or it just breaks if you have conflicting GS
14:46:24 <andythenorth> doesn’t have to have a bureacracy layer
14:46:36 <andythenorth> if you load two newgrfs that mess with cargos, your game breaks
14:46:51 <andythenorth> players encounter this frequently, but no kittens die
14:47:04 <andythenorth> too much poka-yoke stops things shipping
14:47:42 <_dp_> andythenorth, aren't there enough change-newgrf-ingame bugs already?
14:47:58 <andythenorth> yes, but that’s a different point
14:48:21 <_dp_> andythenorth, idk, looks same too me, people click stuff and expect it to work
14:48:30 <andythenorth> very sensible goal they have
14:49:55 * andythenorth looks for FS to close
14:51:36 <_dp_> partial ordering seems to be fine for a bureacracy layer here
14:52:14 <_dp_> you specify what grfs you override and if game can't determine priorities for each api than setup is incompatible
14:52:35 <andythenorth> not sure how GS would reserve blocks of commands
14:52:39 <andythenorth> just reserve writes?
14:52:49 <andythenorth> seems prone to a cluster fuck to me
14:53:05 <andythenorth> collaboration between plugins is usually a dead end
14:53:09 <_dp_> andythenorth, by api here I mean like newgrf callbacs not commands
14:53:20 <andythenorth> common solution is to put each plugin in a walled garden
14:53:47 <andythenorth> newgrf callbacks? o_O
14:54:18 <andythenorth> is there some layer of control you think is missing _dp_ ? o_O
14:55:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, not sure what do you mean but I'm mostly talking here about some imaginary nwgrf-like logic done with gs))
14:55:40 <andythenorth> what would it control?
14:56:19 <_dp_> andythenorth, same things newgrfs do, just more and better :)
14:56:30 <andythenorth> not sure what’s gained
14:56:41 <andythenorth> expand the idea? o_O
14:57:05 <andythenorth> is this for towns and industries, or everything or what?
14:57:32 <_dp_> well, it's pretty vague of an idea, haven't though it much, but I'll try
14:57:52 <_dp_> basically, replace newgrf logic part with GS
14:58:26 <_dp_> so you'll be able to program newgrf logic in squirrel
14:58:40 <andythenorth> what’s the upsides?
14:58:40 <_dp_> and let them somehow interact/reuse api of other grfs
15:00:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, having some sensible language in which you can write extensible code
15:00:44 <_dp_> also in this case I would probably want for server to be able to push such script on client
15:01:02 <_dp_> not a full grf with resources but just script
15:01:10 <andythenorth> probably better to call them mods here
15:01:13 <andythenorth> grf is too specific
15:01:24 <andythenorth> this would be a proposal to abolish newgrf?
15:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> man, trips to the doctor always take foreeever
15:02:44 <_dp_> andythenorth, not necessarily abolish, just overhaul logic part. probably could be even done in a backwards compatible way
15:03:55 <andythenorth> I think there’s a scripting gap, but I’m not sure what porting newgrf to squirrel gains us?
15:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> probably nothing but trouble
15:04:21 <andythenorth> let the idea run
15:04:50 <_dp_> btw, how is complex logic currently done in grf. like finding distance to nearest water tile? is there some kind of programming language in nml?
15:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you rip people out of their "perfectly fine" existing development environment, while at the same time critical functionality will be missing in the new one
15:05:19 <andythenorth> it’s a defined API
15:05:28 <andythenorth> it’s not complex logic
15:05:52 <andythenorth> callback -> vars -> conditions -> results
15:06:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, so openttd core does the search?
15:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: the problem is that squirrel and grf are based on two fundamentally different mindset. squirrel (ai/gs) is a program that interacts with the game through commands, while grf is a set of callbacks that get interacted with by the game
15:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: so one is active, the other one passive
15:06:21 <andythenorth> if there’s a var providing what you need, openttd gets it
15:06:35 <andythenorth> if there’s no var, you have to create your own checks using the vars you do have
15:07:16 <milek7> we can have callbacks in squirrel, too
15:07:21 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, by gs here I just mean squirrel language, doesn't even have to be squirrel any other decent one will do
15:07:44 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, ofc server-side command-controlling part has nothing to do with it
15:08:31 <_dp_> milek7, in current GS callbacks aren't that useful
15:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: maybe, but it would just be another layer on top, instead of the existing deeply integrated callbacks
15:08:50 <_dp_> milek7, they are more like notifications
15:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and some of the callbacks are performance critical
15:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and you will not resolve the difference that squirrel is an interpeted language, while grf is a bytecode language
15:12:25 <milek7> squirrel is probably also compiled to bytecode
15:13:10 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's more of an implementation thing than a fundamental issue
15:13:20 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, java and c# seem to be decently fast
15:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and then we haven't even discussed how you get all the sprite data into your squirrel program
15:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: but "decent" still means a factor of 2 behind optimized native code
15:14:45 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, there are cases when jit can do better
15:15:13 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, but I'm not a fan of java or c# either
15:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: lets not be too nitpicky about a random statement that might have been true 15 years ago when i heard about it :p
15:18:19 <_dp_> btw, js is stupidly fast nowdays
15:18:38 <_dp_> I wish they put that effort in optimizing python instead xD
15:20:16 <milek7> i think 'mods' should be able to override almost any core function and poke at structures
15:20:20 <milek7> but it is hard to do without giving it ability to execute arbitrary code
15:20:23 * _dp_ has a random idea of integrating openttd with llvm
15:29:24 <FLHerne> _dp_: ISTR that the newgrf sprite callbacks are a large proportion of the rendering time already
15:29:39 <FLHerne> (I think it's in the thread with cirdan's SSE blitters?)
15:30:54 <andythenorth> there is an impression that a large proportion of time is spent resolving sprites
15:31:02 <andythenorth> and in many cases they can’t be cached because newgrf
15:31:07 <andythenorth> this may or may not be FUD
15:31:12 <andythenorth> I’ll see if I can find the post
15:31:38 <_dp_> I know for sure one of my zoning patches lags like crazy on callbacks, but for vanilla idk
15:35:01 * andythenorth is fairly confident that the problem with scripting isn’t because of the choice of language
15:35:08 <_dp_> why on earth does newgrf require a logic there
15:35:27 <_dp_> I mean I have and idea why but that seems a poor api choice to me
15:35:37 <andythenorth> that horse bolted
15:35:51 <FLHerne> _dp_: Because having different sprites for trains is sort of the one fundamental newgrf thing? :P
15:36:21 <andythenorth> it wasn’t obviously fundamental that we had to animate them
15:36:30 <andythenorth> that choice could have been made differently
15:36:34 <_dp_> FLHerne, yeah, but shouldn't it be more of a "set sprite" api than "quick, what sprite do we need to show"?
15:36:34 <andythenorth> for performance reasons
15:36:45 <FLHerne> (and changing them based on unpredictable conditions is used for all sorts of things like tilting and extra-long multi-vehicle carriages and...)
15:36:46 <andythenorth> _dp_: they’re equivalent?
15:37:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, not in terms of speed :p
15:37:10 <andythenorth> how do you know which sprite to set?
15:37:35 <FLHerne> _dp_: Yeah, but the union of variables used by any train newgrf to pick a sprite is going to be "all of them"
15:37:53 <_dp_> andythenorth, if you mean animations then take animating logic out of grf, let grf just set animation sequence
15:38:11 <FLHerne> So you need to redo the logic every time anything changes, which is every tick anyway
15:38:41 <andythenorth> _dp_: I would have banned animation even
15:38:44 <_dp_> though honestly I know way too little about newgrfs to seriously propose anything here
15:38:46 <andythenorth> and only change sprites on triggers
15:38:56 <andythenorth> like load / unload
15:39:14 <andythenorth> we must for authors have ability to change sprites on totally arbitrary conditions
15:39:51 <andythenorth> like age of vehicle, current speed, current reliability, tracktype, slope value, corner value, month of year etc
15:40:26 <FLHerne> How else will you know when the wagons ought to have snow piled on them?
15:40:51 <supermop_> i randomly change exhaust pipes based on groups of probabilities based on build year
15:41:04 <supermop_> was a lot of work and you can't even really notice
15:41:04 <_dp_> pfff, yeah, now I get the drift...
15:41:14 <andythenorth> or if the slug is hungry
15:41:28 <supermop_> also change cab livery based n if you buy vehicle in the preview period
15:41:31 <andythenorth> could have just been done on triggers
15:41:45 <andythenorth> then cached until next trigger
15:41:52 <supermop_> which was supposed to be an easter egg but i dont think anyone would notice
15:42:05 <supermop_> those are all done at vehicle purchase though
15:42:26 <_dp_> slug eats cpu and he still is hungry? :/
15:43:10 <andythenorth> if the sprite chain was just action 3 -> action 1 then we’d be laughing
15:43:16 <andythenorth> but no, we have varact 2 for fun
15:47:42 <_dp_> if game starts to lag skip more getimage calls and use last value
15:51:20 <_dp_> basically, gradual degradation instead of optimization
15:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: the tricky part about skipping things is that they might be gamestate relevant, and thus desync
15:55:24 <FLHerne> That would cause very odd appearance when going around corners
15:56:38 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, but GetImage doesn't seem to be gamestate relevant. or rather it shouldn't be
15:57:01 <_dp_> do newgrfs even have an internal state?
15:57:50 <_dp_> I guess there is some newgrf storage in savegames
15:57:59 <_dp_> but can't think of any grf that uses it
15:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there are "parameters" that can be changed during initialisation, but not runtime. and then there are item-dependent permanent storage, and each callback has temporary storage
15:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (temporary storage is discarded after the callback ran)
16:02:53 <NGC3982> for a person well endowed in the perks of irc, its puzzling that andy still do that quit/join thing.
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16:13:03 <planetmaker> _dp_, there's permant storage. E.g. industry newgrfs make use of that for production. Or houses for deciding looks
16:13:30 <planetmaker> industries is as such game-critcal
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16:44:21 <V453000> this weekend I hope to finish my palette converter >
16:44:59 * andythenorth sat in van-office
16:45:03 <andythenorth> watching weather
16:46:58 <andythenorth> also current office :P
16:47:05 <andythenorth> not actually mine, I don’t have big alloys
16:47:27 <V453000> the problem is that when you buy a car like this then family is going to be packing a lot of shit without restraints
16:47:43 <V453000> and you are going to be the one who carries it into the car every weekend from 4th floor back and forth :D
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16:48:02 <V453000> is why I'm excusing myself for having a smaller car
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16:56:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if you're still interested in cities skylines, it's currently -75% on steam
16:57:19 <Wolf01> I should purchase the bundle
16:57:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but the bundle still misses the 2 or 3 latest dlcs
16:58:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: want to play ‘close the tickets'?
16:58:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause has proved we can’t win that game ever, but eh
16:58:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it might still be worth playing "unwinnable" games for a while
16:59:12 <peter1138> is the base game no good?
16:59:30 <andythenorth> peter1138, yes £23! that is how much a laptop stand costs for a ford transit
16:59:36 <andythenorth> funny you mentioned it
17:00:25 <supermop_> feel like only a commercial user would want a laptop stand in a commercial van
17:00:37 <supermop_> so they'd be able to gouge the price a bit
17:00:48 <supermop_> or worse - a government customer
17:00:50 <andythenorth> it’s actually £231
17:01:04 <supermop_> still sounds cheap for govt use
17:01:09 <V453000> allowing colours works :>
17:02:23 <peter1138> colouring? rgb company colours?
17:02:51 <JGR_> Reading up a bit on the GRF GetImage() discussion above, it is possible to cache the result in most cases, in a way that removes the performance problem for most GRFs. There is a (somewhat hacky) patch in my patchpack which does this.
17:04:03 <andythenorth> how do you do it?
17:04:09 <andythenorth> or do I have to read the patch? :)
17:05:11 <andythenorth> so do we need hyperlinks on buy menu for vehicles?
17:05:23 <andythenorth> and if so, can we have them for industries also?
17:05:29 <andythenorth> and maybe houses, on get info?
17:05:37 <andythenorth> also town names, if they’re real
17:05:50 <supermop_> can i make a newgrf thaat some how scams peoples credit cards?
17:05:59 <andythenorth> yes, but not easily
17:06:12 <supermop_> squid ate phishing link
17:06:12 <andythenorth> however we could with newgrf hyperlinks
17:06:26 <andythenorth> “click here to upgrade this vehicle”
17:06:31 <andythenorth> then take credit card details
17:07:01 <andythenorth> also simple griefing
17:07:26 <andythenorth> it’s a CB, so I could change the url arbitrarily
17:07:46 <andythenorth> so that one stays open then
17:07:49 <andythenorth> such important feature
17:08:11 <JGR_> If I remember rightly, it checks which variables are checked in the varaction2, and if they're all on a whitelist and there are no callbacks the sprite ID is cached
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17:09:05 <andythenorth> won’t changing the hotkeys kind of piss people off?
17:09:14 <andythenorth> is there no way to over-ride them per player?
17:13:54 <_dp_> andythenorth, can change them in hotkeys.cfg
17:14:25 <andythenorth> I am trying to find an objection to that :P
17:15:11 <peter1138> i did something with caching and it made it slower :p
17:16:41 <andythenorth> so how does the union of available subtypes work then :|
17:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: (from memory) for each cargo there's a callback that defines the number of subtypes by repeatedly calling it with an increased number, and if it doesn't return a valid string it's the end of the list
17:19:42 <andythenorth> well it doesn’t work for George :)
17:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because the game calculates the intersection not the union
17:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> intersection by string-id
17:20:38 <andythenorth> well it’s not good enough
17:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you could calculate the union in the refit window, and when you select a non-universal subtype, then the selection at the top of the window could reflect this
17:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> by greying out or so
17:26:16 <V453000> actually it makes no sense to have it
17:30:34 <andythenorth> V453000: which one do you want me to say is better? o_O
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17:31:26 <andythenorth> should I prefer one to other?
17:31:45 <V453000> just demonstrating current state of teh converter
17:31:50 <andythenorth> 32bpp is better currently
17:31:59 <andythenorth> but only because of light temperature
17:32:02 <V453000> now I can just go and say 'disable this specific colour in this specific image'
17:32:10 <V453000> getting those beige colours is damn hard
17:32:20 <V453000> also I didn't know my landscape has any colour XD
17:36:13 <andythenorth> such a cluster fuck
17:37:30 <andythenorth> V453000 how do you do liveries?
17:37:37 <andythenorth> with like, date-sensitivity, and stuff
17:37:42 <andythenorth> and changing by engine
17:37:54 <andythenorth> and also allowing refits of power and stuff by livery
17:38:05 <andythenorth> yes, but that’s not realistic
17:38:08 <V453000> even random shapes for some wagons
17:38:14 <andythenorth> also not realistic
17:38:14 <Wolf01> Eddi, what does the deluxe edition contains?
17:38:35 <andythenorth> V453000 I don’t think you’re even trying properly
17:39:17 * andythenorth wonders how to give all the historical model railroad sets the liveries they so badly want
17:39:28 <andythenorth> subtypes are an absolute disaster of a hack
17:39:44 <andythenorth> but all alternatives seem to just be ‘subtypes, renamed'
17:40:01 <andythenorth> because o/c, the livery can’t just be the sprites
17:40:20 <andythenorth> it also has to affect buy cost, run cost, power, capacity, speed, cargo etc
17:40:24 <V453000> I think they should just randomize sprite upon purchase
17:40:48 <V453000> well you can randomize some of those things upon purchase too
17:41:53 <andythenorth> this dumb shit bothers me
17:42:02 <andythenorth> like, it should have a decent solution
17:42:31 <V453000> livery with so many changes sounds to me like it should just be a different vehicle id
17:44:51 * andythenorth is actually depressed by this
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17:46:27 <andythenorth> such 1st world problems :)
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17:47:26 <V453000> honestly I find this really dumb
17:47:33 <V453000> either it's just visual or it isn't
17:47:46 <V453000> if visual, randomize graphics or give them some other sense, purely graphically
17:47:53 <V453000> if not visual, have different ID
17:48:04 <andythenorth> nah all the shit has to be changed
17:48:16 <V453000> yeah that's the wrong approach
17:48:24 <andythenorth> yeah, but it’s the prevailing approach
17:48:36 <andythenorth> this isn’t being mean about any specific developer :P
17:48:44 <andythenorth> there are loads of people busy being wrong
17:49:44 <andythenorth> there is nothing else to say
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18:39:03 <V453000> next up: ability to enable/disable individual IDs
18:39:21 <V453000> now it uses some stringcodes for colours in all shades each
19:07:48 <LordAro> probably shouldn't do that
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19:12:45 <LordAro> oh wait, no, it segfaults trying to write the crash screenshot
19:17:30 <Wolf01> I was thinking to move the global variables to a static class and make them private with accessors, but what could be the benefit?
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19:27:38 * andythenorth doesn’t normally politics
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19:48:44 <andythenorth> with the leader of the free world
19:52:10 <frosch123> ah, i thought you need to fire someone whenever something else causes trouble
19:53:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that was 2000 years ago
19:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, probably not
19:54:27 <frosch123> did you attend personally?
19:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: was bannon the guy who owned this alt-right/fake-news site?
19:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and who now basically said he thinks the people using that site are crazy?
19:57:54 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: not far off
19:58:28 <supermop_> he was an editor at a dubious 'news' site that is essentially all alt-right etc
19:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i said?
19:59:01 <supermop_> i don't know if he explicitly said that about those readers though, as he seemed to hold basically their beliefs as well
19:59:39 <supermop_> unless he said it very recently, which would be news to me
19:59:59 <supermop_> he always came across as a bit of a raving zealot himself
20:03:47 <LordAro> frosch123: if you can investigate how farm.o.o is setup, that'd be much appreciated
20:04:02 <LordAro> i'd imagine it's just got an ancient version of ogfx hidden away somewhere
20:04:20 <supermop_> i worry though that removing the obvious zealot to replace with a discrete zealot won't be much of an improvement
20:04:23 <andythenorth> we don’t ship ogfx because...?
20:05:15 <frosch123> the installer can download ogfx
20:05:25 <LordAro> not from the commandline, afaict
20:05:53 <frosch123> also ottd can download it itself when starting without baseset
20:06:10 <LordAro> in fact, i'm not sure how to trigger bootstrap, i'm just getting a "Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt."
20:07:06 <frosch123> with "from the commandline" you mean starting a server without gui?
20:07:36 <LordAro> that's what i'm trying, i.e. `make regression`
20:08:52 <frosch123> can you download nogfx?
20:10:30 <LordAro> that doesn't seem to be advertised anywhere
20:11:22 <frosch123> maybe intentional, so dummies do not enable it via the gui, and can't figure out how to disable it again
20:12:06 <frosch123> but you can also apt-get install openttd-opengfx
20:12:46 <LordAro> but i thought there was some sort of builtin bootstrap process? why can't i trigger that?
20:13:18 <frosch123> it shows some window: you are about to download stuff from the internet
20:13:31 <frosch123> ottd is very data-conservative
20:13:36 <frosch123> it doesn't phone home
20:13:38 <LordAro> yeah, but i can't even run that locally
20:13:45 <LordAro> it just stops with the above error
20:13:49 <frosch123> it worked at some point :)
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20:14:58 <Shoshonite> speaking of dummies, I have been compiling a newGRF and the number of orphaned sprites seems to increase by 1 everytime I compile. I am concerned my computer is caught to some terrible sprite death loop. Is this common? known? No observed conflicts yet
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20:15:53 <frosch123> do you change the filename of your source graphics every time?
20:16:32 <frosch123> orphaned sprites are sprites which were once used by the grf, but are no longer and the source has not been updated either
20:16:33 <Shoshonite> I was messing with sprite location in the source
20:16:55 <frosch123> ah, true, that also causes orphanes ones
20:17:21 <Shoshonite> andythenorth told me not to do it, but I dont listen well
20:17:22 <frosch123> it reencodes the sprites with new offsets, but keeps the old sprites with the old offsets in the cache
20:17:44 <frosch123> anyway, they will vanish once you change a single real pixel
20:18:20 <Shoshonite> cool, so this is more a TNG transporter spliting accident and less the dead away team members problem.
20:19:18 * andythenorth has never seen this issue :)
20:19:35 <andythenorth> let’s close some more FS
20:19:42 <andythenorth> while we all wait for my deliveroo to arrive
20:20:40 <Shoshonite> food keeps the meatself alive = good
20:22:32 <LordAro> i can't say i've ever noticed the builtin cursor being slow
20:22:50 <LordAro> it's a purely SDL thing, iirc, so if they're having trouble with ottd they'll be having trouble with a load of other stuff as well
20:23:03 <LordAro> that said, it's not uncommon to have an option to use the OS cursor
20:23:32 <andythenorth> my cursor is slow
20:23:37 <andythenorth> I’m used to it :P
20:25:12 <LordAro> aircraft range has been implemented?
20:25:43 <frosch123> kind of, no idea whether someone plays with it
20:25:47 <frosch123> it's like airport noise
20:25:56 <LordAro> istr something using it
20:26:01 <LordAro> something pikka made, maybe?
20:26:26 <frosch123> no idea which version
20:26:40 <frosch123> possibly the newest one with the 3 planes
20:26:42 <Supercheese> airport noise is good feature
20:26:46 <Supercheese> airplane range is bad feature
20:27:25 <Supercheese> well, maybe only mediocre feature
20:27:27 <frosch123> LordAro: port to sdl2, use os cursor with our sprites
20:28:10 <LordAro> ottd's rendering really doesn't port well to sdl2
20:31:49 <frosch123> that's a private link
20:31:56 <andythenorth> there’s some crap about needing special orders for aircraft range
20:32:02 <andythenorth> and a special visual display of it
20:32:07 <andythenorth> can I just close all that?
20:32:23 <andythenorth> Supercheese: I closed one of your FS suggestions I think :)
20:32:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: setting up aircraft orders is a pain
20:32:36 <Supercheese> yes, I believe you did
20:32:42 <Supercheese> and I believe I agreed
20:32:45 <andythenorth> I just click ‘go-to’ and choose an airport frosch123 :)
20:32:55 <andythenorth> Supercheese: you are in an ever-growing exclusive club ;)
20:33:28 <frosch123> LordAro: most seem to compile now, compared to yesterday
20:33:28 <Supercheese> the "There's a Patch for That™" club doesn't seem that exclusive :P
20:34:15 <frosch123> heh, the regression is apparently really fast if you do not need to scan 1400 grfs
20:36:36 <andythenorth> towns should have been newgrfed :)
20:36:49 <andythenorth> we don’t need so many town algorithms
20:40:22 <V453000> 0.0.3 plans: - migrate to blender, - rework postproduction pipeline, - redefine all sprites to different (more, smaller) filenames
20:40:28 <V453000> sounds like totally not redoing everyhing XD
20:40:56 <andythenorth> just redo everything
20:41:19 <supermop_> i like the suggestion to make plane crashes more spectacular
20:41:32 <supermop_> with fireball skidding down the runway
20:41:37 <andythenorth> it’s very low cost to like suggestions :)
20:41:48 <andythenorth> doesn’t make them likely to happen :)
20:42:39 <supermop_> plane crashes: reduced/none/all the time
20:42:58 <andythenorth> I just use the cheat
20:43:19 <supermop_> lets add planes crashing in mid air, or destroying property on the ground
20:43:48 <supermop_> or clipping the wings of other planes while taxiing to gate
20:44:05 <supermop_> wing clip should also result in fireball
20:44:32 <supermop_> also breakdowns should use the explosion instead of spark
20:45:15 <supermop_> ships exploding at sea for no reason
20:45:38 <andythenorth> I rejected rthat too
20:45:48 <supermop_> large ship has x% of crash when docking at small dock
20:48:25 <LordAro> doesn't that predate NoAI?
20:51:44 <peter1138> probably never made it :p
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20:53:55 <andythenorth> well OP doesn’t care
20:54:02 <andythenorth> probably just close it
20:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> cb18 for trains was never implemented
20:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> only for stations, i think
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20:56:11 <andythenorth> so it’s TTDP only, or what?
20:56:14 <peter1138> i probably have a patch for it that'll never work because it predates noai
20:56:26 <andythenorth> sack it? Nobody cares
20:56:35 <peter1138> basically it tells the ai which is best
20:56:41 <andythenorth> why would I even do that?
20:56:52 <andythenorth> stupid grf authors trying to control even what the AI builds?
20:56:53 <peter1138> i assume noais choose themselves
20:57:11 <peter1138> some sets have special ai-only vehicles
20:57:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: ais are the better players
20:57:18 <peter1138> so yeah, it won't work anyway
20:57:23 <frosch123> they can build historically correct consists
20:57:53 * andythenorth welcomes our bot-based future civilisation
20:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the argument was always along the lines of "noai is more flexible, and real ais can figure this out from the stats anyway"
20:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but it would still be a useful hint, i think
20:58:41 <frosch123> yes, the problem only started when people claimed cb18 makes ais build R
21:00:33 <V453000> my ass isn't pointless, it has exactly 1 point
21:00:39 <peter1138> you'd need to rewrite any AI to use the feature as well
21:01:02 <peter1138> that's a singularity
21:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that would have been easier 5 years ago :p
21:01:26 <peter1138> andythenorth, close it as incompatible with noai
21:01:51 <peter1138> and i doubt oz gives a shit these days anyway
21:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> why does Ctrl+F4 not close tabs in firefox?
21:03:07 * andythenorth doesn’t actually think grf authors are stupid :D
21:03:18 <frosch123> did ctrl+f4 work past win 3.1?
21:03:49 <peter1138> andythenorth, who said they are?
21:04:16 <peter1138> it made sense with just one ai though
21:04:43 <andythenorth> probably the wiki is wrong eh
21:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i really don't remember...
21:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it was just the first key i tried
21:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and since ctrl+tab switches tabs, i thought crtl+f4 could close it
21:05:48 <andythenorth> doesn’t cb36 solve all this?
21:06:15 <V453000> ok idea, make everyhing red/orange/yellow
21:06:17 <peter1138> ^pgup / ^pgdn also does
21:06:23 <V453000> openttd has fucking amazing range of colours for that
21:06:31 <andythenorth> V453000: like a sunset? o_O
21:06:44 <V453000> can't really tell much difference in the fire parts
21:07:07 <V453000> that would require long shadows
21:07:29 <V453000> however fucking volcanic land of destruction with fire and lava everywhere isn't a bad idea
21:07:49 <V453000> btw you can see that the difference between the terrains is smaller now
21:07:55 <V453000> I changed the weights of colours
21:08:15 <V453000> had some dumb ass 'human eye correction' there which I believe doesn't work for shit
21:08:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: that's vehicles longer than 8/8
21:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: do you remember the mars expansion, where water was replaced with lava?
21:08:49 <frosch123> apparently it does not crash ttdp immediately
21:08:52 <frosch123> only if you know how
21:09:23 <V453000> of course Eddi I have played with it many times
21:09:35 <V453000> but the terrain itself isn't DEAD enough
21:10:42 <andythenorth> vehicles longer than 8/8 is…not good
21:11:09 <frosch123> V453000: maybe we need a april 1st grf, that swaps land with water sprites
21:11:24 <andythenorth> won’t implement for 2054?
21:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> finally a proper context for wetrails :p
21:11:50 <andythenorth> I didn’t ask many questions for that last 300 tickets I closed
21:11:58 <andythenorth> but now I’m into the legit / hard ones :)
21:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: negative values for "shorten vehicles" callback is definitely a no
21:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> plua, we have CETS now :p
21:13:00 <frosch123> lv5 was canceled because of that task
21:13:11 <frosch123> i think there was some drama
21:13:12 <V453000> CETS has graphics? :P
21:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> not that many :p
21:13:58 <frosch123> V453000: eddi did not use red/orange/yellow, so it was bound to fail
21:15:15 <andythenorth> f8-ff overflows to negative?
21:15:32 * andythenorth is wading through this crap to try and close the ticket fairly
21:15:38 <andythenorth> clearly it’s dead as a dodo
21:15:54 <frosch123> then you park the train on a horizontal/vertical track, and remove a piece of track under train
21:15:57 <andythenorth> actually I’ll just paste the same as the other ~50 tickets like this
21:17:37 <LordAro> wonder if you can pull some sort of coverage data out of the regression tests
21:17:51 <andythenorth> there are tests? :O
21:18:47 <LordAro> as in, the ai regression thing
21:19:02 <andythenorth> why would houses be allowed to modify road bits?
21:19:11 <andythenorth> I asked for ~identical feature once actually
21:19:58 <andythenorth> for exact same case
21:21:49 <andythenorth> the roadbit data isn’t provided by some 80+ var or something?
21:27:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: is now a good time to post a bunch of FS for newgrf features? :|
21:27:37 <andythenorth> or should I save it up?
21:27:49 <andythenorth> I want to mostly close them, but need to check I’m not being a fool
21:30:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am not a fan of adding newgrf features if noone is going to use/test it
21:30:53 <frosch123> also, i already have enough other patches
21:31:24 <V453000> it's not like I have yet utilized your awesome vehicle layers ;P
21:31:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: but there is nothing wrong with grouping and colelcting stuff on some grfv10 page :p
21:32:36 <andythenorth> (houses can refuse to accept cargo)
21:33:13 <andythenorth> ^ I have made a crapload of building sprites, and they only get truncated or flicker when I do it wrong
21:33:54 <andythenorth> I don’t hate it, it’s arguably consistent to let cb36 change *everything*
21:34:29 <andythenorth> how you ‘refurbish’ a vehicle in game, I have no idea
21:34:38 <andythenorth> presumably some subtype refit bollocks :)
21:36:32 <Alberth> you auto-buy a new vehicle a little sooner I guess
21:36:57 * andythenorth leaves that open
21:37:06 <andythenorth> no rationale for closing it, except personal prejudice
21:37:25 <andythenorth> ‘just use a bridge'
21:38:37 <Alberth> or a path-finder trick
21:38:53 <Alberth> but not really trivial, I think
21:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> meh, need a new mouse battery
21:39:56 <Alberth> Moving all that copper halfway across the map isn't that easy :p (1650 t/month)
21:42:13 <Alberth> andy, maybe display production rate eg with copper refinery in IAHC, FIRS 3.0.0 alpha 4 ?
21:42:53 <Alberth> now I just get a big load at the station, and a high production count at the end of the month
21:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, my road crossing patch should still be "up to date", and the main issue is still upgrading old savegames
21:44:06 <andythenorth> does it fix the issue Eddi|zuHause ? O_O
21:44:14 <andythenorth> I just closed the ticket as unsolvable
21:44:16 <LordAro> AI integration "tests" aren't exactly the best thing in the world
21:44:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: production rate? o_O
21:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, sort of. but it will also allow rv to crash into trains right in front of them
21:45:07 <andythenorth> I see no solution when arvs are blocking a crossing
21:45:12 <andythenorth> other than stop the train
21:45:15 <andythenorth> which ain’t happening
21:45:29 <andythenorth> grade crossings are v. dangerous
21:45:37 <andythenorth> YouTube has evidence
21:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my patch will make a rv ignore red crossing if it's already on a crossing
21:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so rv will never be stuck between two crossings
21:46:14 <andythenorth> and if it’s in a queue of vehicles due to e.g. breakdown?
21:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's fucked...
21:46:48 <LordAro> Alberth: surprisingly easy to get to work though, just ./configure CXXFLAGS="--coverage" LDFLAGS="--coverage" && make && make regression, then pull the data out with lcov
21:46:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: production is ‘maximum’ :D
21:47:20 <Alberth> andy, you think so? :p
21:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have never considered breakdowns while developing that patch
21:48:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: I am open to changing that industry text, but we tried lots of variants
21:48:19 * andythenorth looks if any screenshots exist
21:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: vehicles stuck due to breakdown will need more elaborate traffic handling
21:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which i don't think the game is ready for
21:53:22 <andythenorth> there were 16 options tried :P
21:56:32 <Alberth> oh, if it says "supplied"at both, it is at highest production
21:58:39 <andythenorth> but I _could_ add something to the hint text when it’s max
21:58:46 <andythenorth> like “(achieved)"
21:58:52 <andythenorth> or even just a tick symbol
21:59:14 <andythenorth> or change the text
21:59:25 <andythenorth> “Continue delivering blah blah”
22:00:10 <Alberth> (supplied, rate higher)
22:00:26 <Alberth> (supplied, rate highest)
22:00:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: can you open FIRS feature request :P
22:02:00 <andythenorth> my project was so neat and tidy too :P
22:02:09 <Alberth> wow, just 4 open issues :)
22:03:23 <andythenorth> newgrf authors need to provide 2 buy menu sprites, one for each orientation?
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22:09:59 <Alberth> just draw it in the other direction, would be my guess
22:10:20 <Alberth> ph, buy menu has separate sprites of course
22:10:58 <Alberth> most authors won't make 2 sprites I think
22:11:21 <andythenorth> option to provide one, fall back to default flipped
22:11:27 <andythenorth> oh we probably can’t actually flip sprites in game?
22:11:29 * LordAro ponders what else to do
22:11:33 <andythenorth> we have nothing to do transforms?
22:11:35 <V453000> or you can just flip the sprite? :D
22:11:52 <andythenorth> I bet OpenTTD has nothing to do x-scale -1
22:12:33 <Alberth> in SDL where you blit your own pixels? wouldn't bet on that :p
22:13:41 <andythenorth> doesn’t matter if the lighting is wrong
22:13:55 <andythenorth> in fact there was a request I saw for RTL lighting to come from left anyway :P
22:14:12 <andythenorth> RTL should probably flip *all* sprites
22:15:15 <Alberth> we should just paint the entire screen backwards :p
22:16:00 <andythenorth> I considered that
22:16:11 <andythenorth> do the glyphs flip though :P
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22:18:15 <andythenorth> you don’t have scrolling :)
22:18:24 <andythenorth> for once, something is actually better on the OS X port
22:18:49 <peter1138> mouse wheel... is for zooming
22:24:35 <peter1138> nothing works on os x
22:29:57 <LordAro> looks like nothing actually uses h_wheel / v_wheel anywhere anyway
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22:32:02 <andythenorth> I haven’t imagined vehicles tunneling in roadstops have I?
22:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: tunneling is a workaround, not a solution
22:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it takes way too long, and only a few vehicles tunnel at a time
22:34:51 <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, patch in 3051 doesn't work anymore anyway, even adapting it to the current code
22:35:01 <andythenorth> LordAro: you have close rights no?
22:35:08 <LordAro> those buttons weren't there before
22:35:23 <andythenorth> the worst that can happen is kittens die
22:35:37 <LordAro> i can close as "out of date", right? :p
22:35:40 <LordAro> that seems appropraite
22:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i would reject the rejection on grounds of "invalid" as invalid
22:35:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: isn’t building routes to prevent roadstop contention part of the game?
22:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no
22:36:19 <andythenorth> is it a goal to fix?
22:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try a few games with AI that builds roadstops
22:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: watch epic traffic jams
22:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: one problem to solve is bus A waiting at a roadstop, and bus B of a different line/company which will not stop at that roadstop trying to pass
22:37:55 <andythenorth> I could screenshot that in my games, frequently ;)
22:38:05 <andythenorth> I am familiar with the issue
22:38:10 <andythenorth> I just think it’s non-solvable
22:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the other problem to solve is multiple busses of the same route trying to load at the same stop
22:38:23 <andythenorth> and oncoming traffic
22:38:33 <andythenorth> and the desire to have one way stops
22:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> these are like 3 separate issues, and each warrant an individual solution
22:39:48 <andythenorth> I shall await the closure of the issue
22:40:00 <andythenorth> as ‘implemented’ :)
22:40:25 <andythenorth> it is only 10 years old, maybe it will be done by 2027 :)
22:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: start with overtaking on bridges :p
22:41:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (overtaking can start before the bridge and continue, but not start on the bridge)
22:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in theory, a special user could have "world/deity" mode (like gamescript)
22:44:27 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Might be useful for fixing deliberate obstructions, but just killing the company should work
22:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but this would be separate from "spectator"
22:44:54 <_dp_> andythenorth, nah it's kind of useful
22:45:11 <_dp_> no idea what he means by set as admin tho
22:45:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: think of creative mode in minecraft
22:45:40 <andythenorth> why not just join the company?
22:45:47 <andythenorth> and delete stuff
22:46:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, it solves most of the problems
22:46:12 <_dp_> but doesn't help with indusries
22:46:18 <_dp_> or if company has no money
22:46:19 <andythenorth> magic bulldozer :P
22:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> cheats don't work in mp
22:46:45 <_dp_> andythenorth, I think I'm the only one running servers with magic buldozer :p
22:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> convert all cheats to deity commands?
22:46:58 <andythenorth> it’s a crap suggestion though, if the request is deity
22:47:11 <andythenorth> as in, the actual FS issue is not useful
22:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sometimes people don't know what they're asking for
22:47:54 <_dp_> also I thing I miss as admin is to grow towns
22:47:57 <andythenorth> if we want to get value from FS suggestions, we should group and rewrite them
22:48:04 <_dp_> coz some bastards like to kill towns :(
22:48:14 * andythenorth has actual paying customers who make suggestions
22:48:36 <andythenorth> nearly always useful, but often what is asked for isn’t quite what is needed eh
22:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: those are the worst. because they're paying, they think they have power
22:49:17 <andythenorth> they’re fine, we earn our money by translating what they ask for into a product that actually does what they need
22:49:37 <V453000> omg, trying to be proper and use argparse :D
22:49:41 <andythenorth> _dp_: you want SE tools, but during game?
22:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: uhm, cargodest is dead?
22:50:10 <andythenorth> not happening though
22:50:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, some of the SE won't hurt)
22:50:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, never actually used SE though xD
22:50:50 <andythenorth> me neither except to test patches :P
22:51:07 * _dp_ wonders if SE is still broken in citymania client
22:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we have settings to remember faces and stuff, could that also save company colours?
22:51:38 <LordAro> i feel like 2831 was fixed quite some time ago with alberth's gui rewrite
22:52:19 <andythenorth> I don’t understand 2831
22:52:46 <_dp_> with some fallbacks if it's already taken
22:52:47 <andythenorth> no-one’s going to patch that
22:53:05 <andythenorth> nah, none of you will patch it
22:53:19 <andythenorth> also, a current goal is to reduce Advanced Settings
22:53:21 <andythenorth> so why add more?
22:53:31 <LordAro> andythenorth: i think there's some text that's overflowing and being hidden in the money stats page
22:53:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the issue is 2394323 is abbreviated as 239... instead of 2.39M
22:53:39 <_dp_> hardest part of the patch is probably ui
22:53:39 <andythenorth> I haven’t hit the close button yet. Still writing a nice rejection :P
22:53:51 <LordAro> it occurs to me that i don't remember how to get the cheat menu up
22:53:55 <FLHerne> "reducing advanced settings" isn't a sane goal
22:53:56 <LordAro> so i can't test this easily
22:53:58 <Wolf01> Not as a setting, just saved as preset in config and always loaded on new games
22:54:09 <andythenorth> LordAro: ctrl-alt-c
22:54:14 <FLHerne> Removing/hiding the ones that no sane person has any reason to change is
22:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, i feel like we discussed this in the past
22:54:18 <supermop_> i would 100% use a default CC
22:54:25 <Wolf01> Manager face is already saved, why not colour and name?
22:54:34 <Wolf01> And automatically load them
22:55:01 <FLHerne> ^(better idea anyway)
22:55:02 <andythenorth> LordAro: I can’t trigger truncation or overflow
22:55:04 <supermop_> i guess the benefit is when testing my grfs i can see if they look shitty with cream or some other color i never use
22:55:40 <supermop_> but in TTO i played green for every game for 2 years, then orange
22:55:44 <_dp_> I'm doing webchat for citymania and it's quite annoying that company name is set only some time after it creation
22:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try a currency with factor >1000
22:56:00 <supermop_> for OTTD i played orange for every game until about 2012, then light blue since
22:56:12 <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, me neither
22:56:28 <_dp_> and I mean even default name, so when create action arrives it's just "Unnamed"
22:56:47 <andythenorth> I’m up to 13 digits
22:57:02 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it autoresizes now?
22:57:13 <FLHerne> Have you tried making the window absurdly narrow or something?
22:57:26 <FLHerne> (android phones, portrait?)
22:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not the same thing
22:58:17 <andythenorth> so I leave 4115 open?
22:58:35 <andythenorth> I had a nice rejection written :P
22:58:38 <V453000> =D I wanted ot have it finished this weekend
22:58:42 <V453000> looks like a good friday
22:58:50 <andythenorth> ach 12 more to close
22:58:55 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's too good to be closed :p
22:59:16 <Wolf01> _dp_: want to team up for 4115?
22:59:39 <andythenorth> UI to select the industry layout?
23:00:00 <andythenorth> my comment is outdated
23:00:43 * supermop_ should finish trams
23:01:06 <supermop_> going to be riding the hiroden in two weeks
23:01:23 <supermop_> if i don't get irradiated before then
23:01:24 <andythenorth> people really need to choose the industry layout?
23:01:38 <_dp_> Wolf01, eh, well, not sure about teeming but I may do a patch someday
23:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in SE it might be valid
23:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> think ECS tourist centers
23:02:38 <Wolf01> Just fund and remove the industry until you get the layout you want
23:02:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That would have been useful for me, like, twice ever
23:03:27 <supermop_> andythenorth: not really
23:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some game (settlers 2?) had a button where you could go back to the place you were before you clicked on the message
23:03:54 <andythenorth> FLHerne: worth it though :D
23:04:00 <FLHerne> I had to keep blowing things up and moving objects around until it looked right
23:04:06 <supermop_> but like it is a pain sometimes when you fund an industry and it chooses some oblong layout that blocks your planned rail line
23:04:31 <andythenorth> lemons, lemonade
23:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: you can force the layout by placing things in the way
23:04:54 <andythenorth> when I (rarely) play coop MP, I can admin the server
23:05:37 <andythenorth> how the hell do I admin server from my client?
23:05:40 <andythenorth> there’s no UI for it
23:05:53 <andythenorth> advanced settings are applied to my client, not the server
23:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, the request is to add such an UI?
23:06:17 <_dp_> location history is awesome, I though about doing it too. not quite easy to do it right though
23:06:31 <andythenorth> wtf counts as a ‘location’?
23:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: viewport
23:06:51 <andythenorth> if I have laggy map scroll, do I get a new location every 16 tiles?
23:07:10 <andythenorth> or only if I click ‘location’ in some windows?
23:07:15 <andythenorth> and is a moving train a location?
23:07:17 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, getting proper locations is a hard part.
23:07:44 <_dp_> andythenorth, but having something to just between parts of map would be very nice
23:07:48 <supermop_> lets play contrarian arguments to prevent andy from closing any issues
23:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> if ((not right-click pressed) and (distance to last location > x) then new_location
23:08:05 <andythenorth> I am happy to have counter arguments
23:08:12 <andythenorth> I closed all the easy ones
23:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> is probably terrible :p
23:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> X should be in the order of one screen size
23:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and right-click should cover other means of scrolling (arrow keys)
23:09:08 * _dp_ has a system for trusted clients to change settings
23:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, actions like clicking "jump to <location>" buttons should create a new location for before and after the jump
23:10:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that seems totally non-controversial ;)
23:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> again, considering the X value
23:11:50 <andythenorth> I don’t play MP much, but sometimes it shows me last-joined server in lobby
23:12:38 <andythenorth> it ends on a thanks, so either massive sarcasm, or resolved
23:13:01 <LordAro> you already pointed that at me :p
23:13:18 <LordAro> and i already told you it's basically impossible with distros that .gz the zip
23:13:24 <LordAro> and put it in various random locations
23:13:36 <andythenorth> let me paste that on the ticket
23:14:22 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I lost the internet
23:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that issue is fun... we constantly complain that people don't read the readme, but at the same time we debate whether it makes sense to make the readme more accessible
23:14:31 <Wolf01> Netflix stopped working
23:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: sounds like dns issue?
23:15:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it’s great eh :D
23:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> time ripples from last weeks weather?
23:15:39 <LordAro> there are so many issues that make me go "surely that's implemented" and then i check and find it isn't
23:15:50 <Wolf01> No, just my ISP waiting to get nuked
23:16:05 <Wolf01> I should phone them and make them aware of their problem
23:16:20 <andythenorth> 8 more to find and close
23:17:18 <Wolf01> andythenorth: do you know we'll open at least 1 task every time the counter gets lower than 500?
23:17:36 <Wolf01> And all with valid stuff
23:18:12 <andythenorth> the point here is to get it to 100
23:18:18 <andythenorth> and then open valid tasks
23:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: reminds me when i first played with 256 colour mode in pascal
23:21:47 <V453000> now I just need to fix that blue indent
23:24:38 <andythenorth> stations could just be railtype agnostic when building??
23:25:22 <LordAro> that would be better UI, i feel
23:25:45 <LordAro> unless... can you have stations that are fixed to a particular rail type?
23:26:07 <andythenorth> they’re independent parts of newgrf spec
23:26:24 <_dp_> Laedek, vactube should probably have it's own stations
23:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> potentially they could look different based on railtype
23:26:28 <supermop_> there is provision for different station styles by railtype
23:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but i think you cannot restrict the railtype
23:26:38 <supermop_> like vanilla monorail and maglev
23:26:46 <supermop_> which i always found stupid
23:27:05 <andythenorth> can’t close that one then
23:27:14 <supermop_> should be able to have maglev tracks in the old building and vis-versa
23:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> do vanilla stations change look if you convert the railtype?
23:27:42 <supermop_> so seems like it wouldn't be an issue?
23:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably is awkward if you convert only half the station
23:28:08 <supermop_> already is akward when overbuilding half the station
23:28:30 <supermop_> and suddenly your tensile roof has notion to give it tension
23:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if the question was whether overbuilding an existing track/station should ignore which tracktype you have selected in the gui, then yes, i'm for that
23:28:54 <supermop_> new disaster: train crashed into collapsing station roof
23:29:37 <supermop_> probably a better way to do that but interesting enough idea
23:29:57 <supermop_> B-A might take longer than A-B due to hills or whatever
23:30:08 <supermop_> so not that useful if you timetable
23:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a valid problem, but not an easy solution
23:30:13 * andythenorth often wanted them for ships on long routes
23:30:25 <supermop_> and saving the work in timetabling seems like a big part of the draw
23:30:26 <andythenorth> copy, paste, shuffle, reverse?
23:30:37 <andythenorth> would have to be able to select a range of orders
23:30:40 <supermop_> copy paste orders would be better
23:30:55 <andythenorth> why did I type ‘shuffle'
23:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> "auto-fill return trip" button
23:31:04 <andythenorth> request is not for random ping-pong orders :P
23:31:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes
23:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> will create sort-of "implicit" entries
23:31:15 <andythenorth> it’s just a convenience method
23:31:23 <andythenorth> if only we had client-side UI scripting :P
23:31:42 <andythenorth> I think a lot of orders crap could be solved with client-side UI scripting
23:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'd leave it open
23:31:52 <LordAro> 5141 seems closeable?
23:32:01 <andythenorth> nobody would use it of course, just like nobody uses the two scripting layers on the mac
23:32:26 <andythenorth> I wondered if the text could wrap
23:32:34 <andythenorth> I have NFI how the UI works
23:33:02 <andythenorth> ‘per Alberth’s comment’ or something
23:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that sounds like it's already solved with one of the various rewrites that window got?
23:33:57 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: that's possibly true as well
23:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: anyway, even if it's not, the proper solution would be line-wrap
23:34:45 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: ah, no, apparently not
23:36:02 <andythenorth> 5197 I’m tempted to say ‘get in the sea'
23:36:08 <V453000> I tihnk it makes more sense than sending all trains to depot right now
23:36:15 <V453000> but if it's a problem then meh
23:36:17 <andythenorth> 5197 seems really demanding, faceted crap
23:36:24 <andythenorth> V453000: join the winning side
23:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's a valid request, but that window is already pretty cramped with features/buttons
23:37:14 <andythenorth> and magic hotkeys and so on
23:37:23 <andythenorth> 'orders needs a rewrite’
23:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so make an "order UI rewrite" task and mark this as "depends upon"?
23:39:14 <andythenorth> I’d soon make a scriptable UI task
23:39:27 <andythenorth> and leave the implementation of all the faceted stuff to individual players
23:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> make "order gui rewrite" depend on that, then :p
23:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think "offload everything to the player" is a good approach
23:40:45 <andythenorth> only the faceted stuff
23:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make something scriptable, you need a way to easily distribute the scripts
23:41:43 <andythenorth> and if there are scripts that ~everyone uses, maybe the affordance gets folded into core
23:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you need an easy way to access the scripts
23:41:50 <_dp_> just let newgrfs do it :p
23:42:00 <andythenorth> that is a car crash idea :P
23:42:04 <_dp_> then you can tell "write newgrfs" for ui requests too
23:42:15 <andythenorth> it could be done :(
23:42:22 <andythenorth> it would not be good
23:42:35 <LordAro> i want to close 5115, but it's the only reference to the fluidsynth patch, which would be useful
23:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and opposing to game/ai scripts, players need to be able to enable/disable lots of ui scripts simultaneously
23:43:08 <andythenorth> they’re independent, and installable
23:43:20 <andythenorth> they appear in lists (drop downs), on specific windows
23:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause> are they really?
23:43:27 <andythenorth> you select one, it executres
23:43:39 * andythenorth is making it up somewhat
23:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dropdowns? stupid
23:43:51 <andythenorth> based on all the scripting support in other apps that I never use
23:44:02 <andythenorth> how do you choose which script to run if not a dropdown?
23:44:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to have the script define the button layout
23:44:15 <andythenorth> I wondered about that too
23:44:23 <LordAro> anyone got any thoughts on 4858?
23:44:40 <LordAro> i do seem to keep picking the nice numbers
23:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and give it arbitrary control of what happens on button click
23:45:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am +1, write a spec? O_O
23:45:34 <andythenorth> LordAro: ‘use the admin’ port seems a good answer
23:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't want windows-macro-style "click on this, then click on that" scripts
23:45:41 <andythenorth> and it’s > 5 years old
23:46:03 <andythenorth> so actual scriptable UI, that adds UI elements
23:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: port the game to QT, use their script engine :p
23:46:21 <_dp_> just don't allow unprotected companies :p
23:46:21 <andythenorth> crazy, but why not?
23:46:37 <andythenorth> close that, 4 left to get to 500
23:46:50 <andythenorth> if we rejected Wolf01’s patches...
23:46:53 <andythenorth> that would be 2 gone
23:47:18 <Wolf01> I could always reopen them >:)
23:47:23 <andythenorth> conditional orders are stupid
23:47:30 <andythenorth> trains going round in circles
23:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think i requested that same feature
23:48:53 <andythenorth> I can feel the pain, but really, core isn’t going to be able to help
23:49:09 <V453000> 2min 29s for bridges of 16384 x 3200 :)
23:49:17 <andythenorth> what was it before/
23:49:24 <V453000> I'd guess about 20min
23:49:32 <V453000> will test with old script tomorrow
23:49:38 <Wolf01> andythenorth: after a lot of trials I concluded the best option was to set the vehicle at "load if available" and set the time in the timetable, just for loading
23:49:57 <andythenorth> that’s the only use for timetables, no?
23:50:02 <andythenorth> partial load orders
23:50:18 <andythenorth> they’re just badly named, and in the wrong place in the UI
23:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think the scenario i used in my request was: "Goto A (unload all, wait for X days), Goto A (load)" for end-stations so the cargo does not needlessly age
23:50:44 <Wolf01> The problem is: if there is no cargo -> wait 10 days, but if there is cargo -> load and start immediately
23:50:52 <andythenorth> ha nice tactics Eddi|zuHause
23:50:57 <Wolf01> Timetable + full load didn't work
23:51:05 <andythenorth> the problem is worrying about this stuff too much
23:51:15 <andythenorth> if you want 75% load order
23:51:23 <andythenorth> build a 75t train, not 100t train
23:51:35 <andythenorth> it’s like somebody made a fundamental error
23:52:00 <Wolf01> The problem isn't really "I want 75%" but "at least 75%"
23:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i've had issues on ship->train transfer stations, where the option was either to have 95% loaded trains wait ages for the next ship to arrive, or have 0% loaded trains leave
23:52:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: me too :)
23:52:28 <andythenorth> I have often wanted partial load orders
23:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this conditional order would solve that
23:52:39 <andythenorth> I am just trying to persuade myself otherwise
23:53:00 <andythenorth> “orders need a rewrite"
23:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "goto A (load if available); if load = 0% goto 1; goto B"
23:53:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it doesn't need a rewrite
23:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just leaving the station should check whether the next station is the same
23:53:56 <LordAro> i think 5837 is valid
23:54:12 <LordAro> i've certainly wanted to mass delete signs before (although not as many as in their case)
23:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i looked into it once
23:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't remember why i got stuck
23:54:39 <LordAro> some sort of tile selection would do
23:54:45 <andythenorth> ‘open signs window’, ‘select all’, ‘delete’
23:55:20 <LordAro> andythenorth: i'm gonna reopen, i think
23:55:24 <andythenorth> for sign in sign list
23:55:55 <_dp_> mass deleting signs needs network command
23:56:56 <andythenorth> perk11: I know, but Rubidium said no 7 years ago, and nothing has changed since :)
23:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that gs cannot loop over all signs (independent of owner) seems like a missing feature
23:57:27 <LordAro> adding 30 extra strings is the only feasible solution, and that's just not desirable at all
23:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe signs should be cleared on company bankrupcy?
23:58:17 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: "dead" signs probably have some historical value?
23:58:30 <LordAro> although i'm struggling to think of anything right now
23:59:24 <perk11> andythenorth: Well he couldn't believe the facts 7 years ago, but there is still no good translation for both flying and riding
23:59:53 <andythenorth> I can re-open it, but it won’t get done
23:59:57 <andythenorth> it will just be open
continue to next day ⏵
