IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-16
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00:04:52 <FLHerne_> Classic UK solution :P
00:05:20 <FLHerne_> Perhaps OTTD needs pedestrian simulation
00:05:48 <Wolf01> OTTD might need cargo walking
00:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like TF?
00:08:19 <Wolf01> Also we need to fix catchement areas
00:09:13 <Wolf01> The current approach is way too simple
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00:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, once you got proper walking, you don't need catchment areas anymore
00:15:11 <Wolf01> You will need catchement areas to connect stations, houses and industries in a delimited area
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00:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the concept of "catchment area" will be replaced by how far the people are willing to walk over the course of a journey
00:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (but that idea quickly falls apart when you consider that cargodist does not actually model a journey)
00:26:42 <supermop> hmm new branch works out to about 160 day round trip
00:26:50 <supermop> as opposed to 150 on mainline
00:27:25 <supermop> not sure i want the train sitting on its ass for 20 days to make it 180 and preserve 30 day cycle
00:28:20 <supermop> might make the mainline sit 10 instead
00:28:41 <Wolf01> Mmmh, you just made me thinka bout a new daylength patch
00:28:49 <supermop> then 1/4 of trains are mainline instead of 1/3
00:29:28 <supermop> rather 2/4 are mainline and 2/4 for branch, as opposed to 2/3 and 1/3
00:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> don't we have that patch already?
00:30:08 <supermop> maybe ill do mainline at 0 and 20, branch at 10, and mainline short turn at 30
00:30:33 <supermop> Wolf01: i want a rush hour so i can have different service patterns
00:32:00 <Wolf01> Eddi: at least 4 where 2 are mine
00:32:51 <LordAro> i made a post on the forums
00:32:55 <LordAro> first time in 2 years
00:33:02 <Wolf01> The weird thing is to explain why some days have 30 hours, some 31 and one 28 or 29 :D
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00:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> daylight saving time
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10:53:09 <peter1138> hurr, people in the office talking about factorio
11:15:34 <andythenorth> can we remove taking over comapnies?
11:15:39 <andythenorth> or companies even?
11:15:52 <andythenorth> it spawns a shitload of feature requests
11:16:32 <planetmaker> That would make it difficult to play jointly and build together
11:16:53 <andythenorth> apparently that is difficult :)
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11:44:34 <andythenorth> closed 15 more FS
11:45:02 <andythenorth> Wolf01: maybe we should try applying some patches? o_O
11:45:26 <andythenorth> ach we’d have to test MP desyncs and crap though
11:45:34 <Wolf01> Yes, but they need code review
11:45:38 * andythenorth has no idea how to do that
11:45:39 <Wolf01> Are you able to do it?
11:45:45 <andythenorth> code review? Not a chance
11:46:05 <andythenorth> patchpack, testing cluster, chaos monkey
11:46:13 <andythenorth> apply every patch, run it for 5 days
11:46:18 <andythenorth> if stats say it works, ship it
11:48:23 <Wolf01> Can you make a list of patches?
11:48:54 <andythenorth> Flyspray needs tags :P
11:49:11 <andythenorth> I could use the priorities as a hack
11:51:41 <Wolf01> Add more states and use those
11:52:13 <andythenorth> I’ll just make them ‘flash’ for now
11:52:18 <andythenorth> there aren’t many interesting ones
11:53:48 <Wolf01> There isn't a column for priority in the list (but you can add it), and with status you could show a little of movement to people
11:55:40 <Wolf01> I should identify what I'm good for, and then apply all myself to it
11:57:14 <Wolf01> I know I'm good at prototyping, not so useful if I want stuff merged in trunk, I'm like a designer which can only make sketches
11:57:59 <Wolf01> So I can't review the code too :/
11:58:25 <andythenorth> either (1) they’re a bad idea or (2) they’re things I don’t understand or (3) they’ve already been reviewed and failed, and never developed further
12:00:38 <Wolf01> For example the switch should be put in new lines, even if there's only one instruction
12:01:37 * andythenorth thinks now to close a lot of patch FS
12:03:26 <Wolf01> Also the switch is useless, just use v->type in the counter and handle 2 special cases
12:05:06 <Wolf01> Maybe it was aligned to r7059 standards, but not with the current
12:05:40 <Wolf01> Those tabs in english.txt
12:11:57 <LordAro> i'd close any patches that are >5 years old
12:12:21 <LordAro> (that haven't been updated, might be worth checking forums)
12:12:51 <LordAro> alternaticely, for 385, doesn't look too complicated, rewrite it?
12:28:39 <_dp_> bug/feature with outdated patch is still no worse than one without a patch :p
12:35:42 <andythenorth> LordAro: I’m +1 to closing >5 years old
12:35:49 <andythenorth> or do you have edit rights LordAro ? o_O
12:47:52 <Wolf01> Could I add a patch to fs?
12:50:21 <LordAro> andythenorth: alas, i do not
12:50:30 <LordAro> despite my best efforts over the years
12:51:04 <LordAro> andythenorth: also, i have actual work to do :p
12:56:13 <peter1138> hmm, so should i get a mikrotik or ubiquiti ap
13:10:58 <andythenorth> there are a few other typo patches in the queue Wolf01 :)
13:11:01 <andythenorth> you could bundle them
13:13:13 <andythenorth> actually that was all
13:13:19 <andythenorth> I thought there were more
13:13:25 <LordAro> Wolf01: texteditor files should, technically, go in your global ignores rather than the project
13:14:17 <LordAro> Wolf01: but you also forgot the svn:ignore addition :p
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13:15:12 <Wolf01> I know, but I don't have the .svn file
13:15:31 <LordAro> Wolf01: doesn't go in there anyway ;)
13:16:12 <Wolf01> I can do that with the trunk checkout
13:16:51 <Wolf01> My local working copy is git
13:17:16 <Wolf01> BTW.. if only there was a place to set that in the IDE
13:19:25 <LordAro> i'd imagine there's a gitconfig file somewhere
13:20:08 <Wolf01> There's an entire template for ingoring VS shit
13:20:18 * peter1138 loads up openttd into vs code just for... no reason
13:21:03 <LordAro> * peter1138 screams and closes it again
13:21:25 <peter1138> needs vim key bindings :p
13:21:39 <Wolf01> Ha! I should "opt-out" from this functionality by changing a registry key
13:21:39 <LordAro> i believe there's a plugin
13:23:51 <Wolf01> I can't understand why they used the project folder and not the documents folder to keep these files, maybe to help sharing the IDE settings with the group, but I would have liked more an import/export for that
13:24:59 <andythenorth> less than 840 eh?
13:30:13 <Wolf01> Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\VisualStudio\14.0_Config\FeatureFlags\Solution\WorkingFolders\LegacySUOMode <- easy to find
13:32:59 <Wolf01> BTW, LordAro: since there's already projects/*.suo in .gitignore, it's the same of .vs, as they moved the IDE config from a single file to a folder
13:35:51 <Wolf01> And svn alreadi has .vs ignored
13:35:54 <LordAro> just my personal preference for ignore files is that they should only contain files generated by the project, not fikes generated by the text editor/environment
13:36:25 <Wolf01> I just checked, so it's missing on .gitignore and .hgignore
13:37:53 <Wolf01> I'll submit both patches to fs, maybe I'll change the name of the ignores... maybe not
13:39:22 <Wolf01> What category is that? Build system?
13:39:43 <andythenorth> then you’ll need to find someone with commit rights ;)
13:39:54 <LordAro> probably build system
13:40:07 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 37 weeks, 0 days, 22 hours, 23 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
13:47:48 <andythenorth> nah long gone :)
13:52:49 <LordAro> i have to say, if there's one thing i think that could improve the patch/trunk/deadness situation, it's more people with commit access
13:53:18 <andythenorth> the ratio of ‘people with access / people committing in last 4 years’ is not good :)
13:56:34 <Wolf01> LordAro: I tried to look how to niceli disable the .vs folder, and I concluded that if I want to use different IDE settings for different project I should ignore the .vs folder from the CVS
13:56:50 <Wolf01> *nicely.. what do I have against y today?
13:58:51 <Wolf01> I added the task, your decision to apply the patch :P
13:59:33 <Wolf01> andythenorth! Two more tasks for you to review :D
14:00:05 <andythenorth> needs a code review ;)
14:01:18 <FLHerne> More active people with commit access, then
14:01:36 <andythenorth> we need to not rely on frosch :)
14:01:59 <Wolf01> We rely on frosch, peter, LA, TB
14:02:50 <andythenorth> or patch reviews
14:03:46 <peter1138> last time i committed i fucked it all up
14:04:16 <andythenorth> how badly wrong can it go? :P
14:04:25 <peter1138> 13:04:18 up 843 days
14:04:27 <andythenorth> we don’t actually have paying customers :P
14:04:28 <peter1138> ought to reboot that one
14:04:32 <LordAro> me? i've hardly been active at all in the last 4 years because of uni
14:04:33 <peter1138> "how badly wrong can it go?"
14:04:47 <peter1138> i'm not active cos i'm lazy
14:04:48 <LordAro> * peter1138 timed out
14:04:54 <peter1138> also i'm actually active in the right way
14:05:07 <Wolf01> Unless you can't revert changes, it isn't too bad :P
14:05:18 <peter1138> LordAro, I'm doing a 200km audax on Saturday. For "fun".
14:05:34 <LordAro> peter1138: i'm doing a 100km on sunday :)
14:05:49 <Wolf01> I'm doing nothing on always
14:10:43 * andythenorth should do some exercise bike
14:13:35 * LordAro would probably die if he tried 200km
14:13:46 * LordAro will probably die when trying 100km
14:14:08 <LordAro> did 43miles a couple of months ago
14:14:24 <peter1138> nah i see you've done a 4...
14:15:36 <Wolf01> How do I install ottd on ubuntu? :D
14:15:46 <Wolf01> (not from apt, that's too easy)
14:16:00 <peter1138> download package, install?
14:16:08 <peter1138> i guess you might have icu issues
14:17:46 <LordAro> there's a thing that installs dependencies somewhere
14:18:34 <Wolf01> Ok, I'll install it and then update the files
14:19:28 <LordAro> you shouldn't modify files under the control of a package manager
14:21:49 <Wolf01> Nice, I didn't know we had ascii-art openttd
14:35:40 <andythenorth> that’s a valid April fools
14:36:48 <Wolf01> If I only can close the game...
14:36:59 <Wolf01> It seem to get mouse input
14:37:25 <Wolf01> Ok, I closed the error popup
14:38:10 <Wolf01> Ok, disabling the selection with the mouse worked
14:39:58 <Wolf01> Ahahah opened the content manager by mistake
14:51:54 <crem> If only the projection was not isometric but rectangular topdown, it would be playable!
14:53:17 <crem> Text mode building game would be awesome! Dwarf fortress it a bit too hardcore. Something like simcity would be perfect. Or ttd, yes.
14:53:48 <crem> Speaking of dwarf fortress..
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15:22:13 <Wolf01> Good, I now have my bank account tied to paypal
15:22:35 <Wolf01> I needed it 3 days ago
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15:43:21 <peter1138> what are you buying me?
15:44:04 <Wolf01> Nothing, I don't buy even for me
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17:21:05 <supermop> whats the opinion on buses out at outskirts of town and villages
17:21:44 <supermop> i've been trying a few transfer station in the outer parts of town
17:22:43 <supermop> where a regular bus comes in from a village or outskirts and then has a transfer with a more frequent/larger bus or tram
17:22:56 <Flygon> I end up using Trams because the bus drivers end up getting lost as fuck.
17:23:07 <Alkel_U3> sometimes I don't build a train station in the vicinity of a vilage at all and just do this feeder service with a bus
17:23:37 <supermop> whereas before i would have run the less frequent bus all the way into the central stations, trying to slot it in amongst the trams or busses that make more regular trips
17:23:38 <Alkel_U3> like, the train stop is in the middle of nowhere
17:24:09 <supermop> or i would run the tram or large bus all the way out to the end of the route
17:24:35 <supermop> really need TaI and ViV
17:24:59 <Alkel_U3> oh, so that was the question. Well, due to jams sometimes I do that but only in very largecities
17:25:26 <supermop> otherwise every patch of land becomes so dense with passengers that anything other than biggest trams everywhere as often as possible wont work
17:27:12 <Alkel_U3> I usually play with TaI and daylength - what's ViV?
17:27:25 <supermop> villages is villages
17:27:54 <Alkel_U3> oooh, that looks nice
17:29:29 <supermop> i always build my networks backwards - now that the passenger services are all built out, i need to figure out how to run some freights through them
17:30:49 <Alkel_U3> I never figured a good way to mix freight and passangers without daylength of at least 10
17:31:22 <supermop> with viv and tai, you can keep up with lots of outlying villages and hamlets that just get an occasional bus service
17:32:03 <Alkel_U3> I can't wait to run a NG track through some :-)
17:32:27 <supermop> IH NG will never work if your villages is like swedish houses
17:32:53 <supermop> by month 2 1400 villagers are waiting for your 60 passenger train
17:33:16 <Alkel_U3> I haven't played with those - it's not visually appealing to me
17:33:45 <Alkel_U3> it especially doesn't fit well into the original graphics
17:34:19 <Alkel_U3> but I used to play with TTRS and yeah, that was like that
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17:39:15 <supermop> TaI is pretty close in style to original graphics
17:39:49 <supermop> and the lower passenger number is nice for certain styles of play
17:43:27 <Alkel_U3> I like both of those features, yeah
17:44:58 <Alkel_U3> but I know someone who doesn't play with TaI solely becose he can't get over a house changing orientation when a nearby street is rebuilt :-)
17:45:14 <supermop> yeah that part could use some work
17:45:27 <supermop> i think pikka is done with it though
17:45:42 <Alkel_U3> looks like it, unfortunately
17:45:44 <Wolf01> Seems nice, lets merge it
17:46:08 <supermop> add reorienting houses to trunk, Wolf01 ?
17:46:56 <supermop> brb have to go to job site and see what is completely messed up today
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17:54:35 <__ln___> greetings from czechoslovakia
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18:28:46 <frosch123> looks like i need a third reactor :o
18:32:41 <frosch123> yay, fast enough, built it when reactor temperature had dropped to 750
18:34:02 <frosch123> the electric grid doesn't tell you anything about the reactor load, if you ship hot steam to outposts
18:34:11 <frosch123> you have to monitor the reactor temperature
18:34:27 <frosch123> or it all breaks down
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19:20:46 <andythenorth> more deleting I think
19:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln___> greetings from czechoslovakia <- dangit, he took a time machine to 25 years in the past
19:21:10 <andythenorth> and who else could have commit rights? o-O
19:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that was before tt was invented
19:21:28 * andythenorth does *not* want commit rights
19:23:56 <LordAro> andythenorth: "Wolfolo"
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20:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> for some reason "Wolfolo" reminds me of age of empires
20:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> just a single letter difference
20:18:56 <andythenorth> is it beer time?
20:19:34 <Wolf01> You should look for __ln___
20:20:16 <andythenorth> beer is not cold
20:24:02 <frosch123> LordAro: i guess multi-byte constants are find
20:24:21 <frosch123> they are used in so many places, we would notice immediately if behaviour changes
20:24:29 <frosch123> like not being able to load the introame
20:24:47 <andythenorth> we should persuade someone to write tests :P
20:25:38 <LordAro> also what andythenorth said :p
20:25:43 <andythenorth> jenkins -> nightly build -> client-server cluster -> admin port -> GS + AI game
20:25:56 <andythenorth> detecting actual failures would be hard though
20:25:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: there was an idea to build a savegame archive
20:26:04 <Wolf01> OTTD would benefit a lot of some refactoring and modularity
20:26:06 <frosch123> with samegames for each savegame version
20:26:09 <andythenorth> running tests is sometimes easier than making sense of the tests
20:26:27 <frosch123> and automatic loading-resaving with every new version
20:26:42 <andythenorth> we can script enough stuff that we could chaos-monkey or soak test things
20:27:55 <andythenorth> the nice thing: it wouldn’t need any code review :P
20:28:19 <andythenorth> (as a project for new developers)
20:28:29 <Wolf01> I'm sure that simple unit tests will detect a lot of bugs
20:29:01 <Wolf01> Too bad I wasn't able to perform even a simple test
20:29:04 <andythenorth> we found bugs yesterday at work just from writing tests
20:29:20 <andythenorth> writing tests means reading code -> found errors
20:29:34 <frosch123> the paste.o.o python script fails because it does not accept the certificate
20:30:28 <frosch123> Wolf01: we have some integration tests
20:31:02 <frosch123> i wouldn't know how to apply unit tests to ottd
20:31:17 <frosch123> unit tests kind of assume object oriented code, which we don't have
20:31:26 <Wolf01> I do, but OTTD ned extensive refactoring
20:33:02 <frosch123> but i do not feel like writing some magic to replace all the usages
20:33:16 <frosch123> (diff likely is broken, i c&p it via clipboard :p)
20:34:37 <_dp_> not just oo, it has to be coded with tests in mind
20:34:45 <_dp_> like singletons are oo too
20:35:29 <frosch123> "singleton" is a fancy name for "global variable"
20:37:48 <_dp_> as any other static stuff
20:40:09 <_dp_> but testable code is far deeper topic than just globals
20:40:41 <andythenorth> unit test <-> integration test <-> functional test
20:40:49 <andythenorth> with some of the boundaries blurred
20:41:01 <andythenorth> unit tests for ottd…surely not? o_O
20:41:15 <frosch123> "functional test" is "manual test"?
20:41:19 <LordAro> frosch123: i can't look at paste because of the cert error :<
20:41:22 <andythenorth> or scripted frosch123
20:41:43 <andythenorth> manual first though
20:41:53 <andythenorth> testing things only humans can understand, initially
20:42:54 <andythenorth> in our case the distinction of integration test and functional test is probably boring semantics
20:44:04 <frosch123> LordAro: 0003 looks really weird to me
20:49:06 <Wolf01> Every bug might need to be tested
20:49:29 <LordAro> frosch123: it does, but apparently otherwise memset gets passed a long, or somthing, and it complains about the range of values you're passing it
20:49:43 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I’m picking off the ones that look easy to repro :)
20:49:56 <frosch123> + memset(statspec->platforms + statspec->lengths, 0, (length - statspec->lengths) * sizeof(*statspec->platforms)); <- LordAro: would that also silence it?
20:49:59 <andythenorth> ‘crash after leaving game running for hours’ with no assertion line….boring :P
20:50:33 <frosch123> i don't like the (byte) cast since it makes the code kind of wrong. otoh adding a sizeof() would make it more correct
20:50:52 <LordAro> frosch123: not sure without my desktop, it was difficult to get the warning to go away
20:51:01 <LordAro> will be back there in an hour or so
20:51:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: it was slightly increased in 1.7
20:51:25 <andythenorth> it’s not a current goal…? (heading for closure...)
20:52:13 <frosch123> i only know my goals :p
20:54:17 <LordAro> frosch123: alternatively, maybe MemSetT should be used
20:55:02 <LordAro> istr trying that to no effect
20:55:16 <frosch123> /* We expect NULL being 0 here, but C99 guarantees that. */ <- he, i usually cite c++98
21:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... i built office spaces, and suddenly most of my industries are abandoned
21:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess all the overqualified workers ran away
21:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> ... at least my traffic problems are less now :p
21:12:26 <supermop> would be interesting to see a passengers vs transported for the whole map
21:12:45 <supermop> to see roughly how much of the regional population has access to transit
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21:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> 129999 inhabitants... how... odd...
21:47:22 <frosch123> maybe you missed yourself when counting?
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22:08:56 <planetmaker> supermop, but those statistics are roughly available :) Towns have a population which is announced. And you can check your transported amount
22:09:18 <supermop> only for each town one at a time
22:09:37 <planetmaker> supermop, if memory serves me well, on a map with like 1M inhabitants, we reached on a coop server once like 200.000 pax transported
22:09:47 <planetmaker> (it was a one-town map)
22:10:20 <supermop> well to get 100% every house would need to be covered by at least two stations
22:11:08 <supermop> but i meant more as a rough measure of how many people are living out in the hinterlands with no connection to the world, at a glance
22:12:08 <planetmaker> How do you define "no connection"?
22:12:24 <_dp_> supermop, citymania client has transported cargo stats and world population in towns list
22:13:17 <supermop> something like transported vs passengers produced, but also total population of towns without any connection
22:13:41 <supermop> measure by towns with no rating, or no passengers transported
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22:14:34 <supermop> i guess you could more exotically try to count every house that is not within the catchment area of a station with passenger service
22:14:40 <supermop> but that sounds really hard
22:16:21 <_dp_> supermop, you can estimate that from transported amount since house production is a % of its population on average
22:18:08 <_dp_> so world population * 50% is about equal to amount of passengers produced by all towns
22:18:23 <andythenorth> so eh, a developer I work with is core Plone contributor. Plone had same issue of less and less core developers => less fun being one of the ones left
22:18:24 <_dp_> if it's 50% that is, don't rly remember exact %
22:18:40 <andythenorth> Plone opened up commit rights to a ~anyone who signed a contributor agreement
22:18:51 <andythenorth> and they have to use pull requests
22:18:59 <andythenorth> and bad commit choices = removal of rights
22:20:15 <andythenorth> they don’t mention it on this page, but apparently that’s how it works :P
22:21:46 <andythenorth> the goal isn’t so much ‘let all the patches in’ as ‘make it more fun to be a developer’
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22:22:07 <_dp_> I coded for Plone on my first work, like 10 years ago, got so fed up with it that never even considered using Plone again xD
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22:22:34 <_dp_> tho most of it was not Plone fault but that we tried to use it for stuff it clearly wasn't designed for
22:22:46 * andythenorth is playing a 10 year game called ‘get out of Plone'
22:22:52 <andythenorth> we built commercial products in it
22:22:58 <andythenorth> in it / on it :P
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22:23:31 <andythenorth> we circumvent most of it
22:23:40 <andythenorth> but kept all of the boilerplate framework and overhead
22:23:46 <andythenorth> worst of all possible worlds :)
22:24:34 <andythenorth> functional tests for everything, and rewrite one piece at a time :P
22:24:44 <andythenorth> and one day…no more plone
22:27:30 <Wolf01> It seem like we did with the CMS, started to rewrite all our classes to align them to PSR, noticed they were almost like symfony2 ones, started to use those ones, now the CMS is build on symfony2
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22:48:49 <Wolf01> Too much lag to play, better go full netflix, also no chill
22:52:41 <LordAro> andythenorth: i've heard it can work quite well
22:52:52 <LordAro> you can always revert changes, after all
22:54:58 <andythenorth> also, don’t many eyes make shallow bugs? :P
22:55:04 <andythenorth> we have nightly, RC, release
22:55:10 <andythenorth> it’s a pretty careful process
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continue to next day ⏵