IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-14
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00:41:44 <Shoshonite> Are the offsets in NewGRF's graphic templates in pixels or some other quasi-magical unit?
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01:23:51 * NGC3982 is going to play ttd for the first time in years.
01:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what blasphemy! nobody here actually PLAYS the game.
01:25:08 <NGC3982> is firs and ukrs2 still the better grfs?
01:25:22 <Wolf01> We allow you to do it, but only for a brief time and just to test some grf combinations
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08:18:18 <V453000> the piece of shit dropbox disabled public links even for paying users!
08:18:24 <V453000> that's fucking disgusting
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08:35:12 <peter1138> welcome to the cloud - "somebody else's computer"
08:40:53 <V453000> well if the service is free I expect anything
08:41:10 <V453000> if it's paid, changing the terms and removing important features is just not nice to say the least
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08:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: well, you're free to cancel the service
08:58:02 <V453000> with 1 year pre-paid plan
09:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> with changes to terms of service you have a special cancel option, even if they don't tell you that
09:03:00 <V453000> regardless, fuck them is the final outcome of this anyway
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12:32:50 <Thanark_> do I need to set my trains to do something to upgrade them? I selected them to replace just like I did last upgrade but this time nothing is replacing. even fast forwarded months
12:43:34 <Thanark_> figured it out. need to change over to electric railways to build the electric trains
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13:00:35 <V453000> voxel hate still happening
13:01:29 <andythenorth> which is clone of minecraft style
13:01:41 <andythenorth> which is clone of OpenTTD style crossed with Doom
13:02:02 <andythenorth> so we’re back at Simon Foster and the ID guys just invented everything worth having
13:02:26 <andythenorth> if I wasn’t busy I’d solve it :P
13:02:44 <V453000> I just really hate that everyone feels like it's easy to make voxels and minecraft does it so let's all do it
13:02:54 <andythenorth> like pixels not easy
13:03:00 <V453000> it's not easy to do it right
13:03:05 <V453000> it's easy to make something shitty with it
13:03:45 <andythenorth> fixing your democracy
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13:09:58 <peter1138> but voxeltycoon looks ok
13:10:11 <peter1138> slopes would be nicer than just cobes though
13:24:33 <Wolf01> I want to shit my lifey fix... I mean, I want to fix my shitty life
13:29:32 <__ln___> Wolf01: sure, some day i will visit venice. i've already been to venice beach, california; does that count?
13:32:40 <__ln___> what about the Venetian casino in las vegas? been there too.
13:41:37 <Wolf01> It's like going to disneyland :P
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18:21:19 <Wolf01> It took me the entire afternoon to clearly understand the adapter pattern... I'm becoming more stupid every day
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20:07:47 <V453000> how does roadhog save 8bpp? Something in python has to check the palette, right?
20:09:12 <V453000> there seems to be some putpalette thing
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20:32:39 <andythenorth> so how did it used to work?
20:32:46 <andythenorth> I only started playing around 0.6 or so
20:32:55 <andythenorth> and not much in irc until maybe 0.7
20:33:00 * andythenorth hasn’t actually checked versions
20:33:17 <andythenorth> there were just more people?
20:33:33 <andythenorth> lower standards?
20:36:30 <V453000> everything going to shit?
20:43:04 <frosch123> in 2007 it would have been easy to just dump everything on github
20:43:24 <frosch123> no bananas and stuff
20:44:14 <frosch123> the discussion topic have not really changed since then
20:44:21 <frosch123> that's why the suggestion forum is so boring
20:44:33 <frosch123> just the easy things got done
20:44:41 <andythenorth> we mostly don’t need suggestions imho
20:44:46 <frosch123> and some easy things made other things harder
20:45:33 <andythenorth> what are the strongest examples of that?
20:45:40 <frosch123> well, some things which were hard back then, would be easier today
20:45:49 <frosch123> like order lists got rewritten like twice?
20:46:10 <frosch123> if we had todays order lists in 2007, we would never got the weird group gui
20:46:55 <andythenorth> the state is remarkably similar to the big commercial app that is the main product my business sells
20:47:13 <andythenorth> round about 2008 we made some architectural decisions which hurt now and make development sometimes glacial
20:47:29 <andythenorth> other things move because we have paying customers :)
20:47:44 <andythenorth> but we are totally blocked in some areas by our choice of user+groups implementation
20:48:30 <andythenorth> other things are slow because we have >5k admin users who are used to things working a certain way
20:48:43 <frosch123> i have it easier at work :) the stuff i work on is mostly based on science and math
20:48:51 <frosch123> so there is a definite right thing to do
20:49:05 <frosch123> if you need to you can dump a subcomponent and rewrite it
20:49:41 <frosch123> you do not need to worry about breaking some esoteric use-case of some users, there is a correct thing to do
20:50:00 <andythenorth> and old browsers
20:50:13 <andythenorth> and the need to preserve absolute integrity of data, and all savegames
20:50:22 <andythenorth> ‘savegames’ is perhaps misleading, it’s not games :)
20:50:57 <andythenorth> our customers can end up in court if we make mistakes, or break content
20:51:09 <andythenorth> so innovating is challenging :)
20:51:38 <andythenorth> meanwhile, how about we ask Kamnet to do release announcements? o_O
20:51:53 <frosch123> he wanted to do that two years ago :)
20:52:21 <frosch123> i think he also has twitter access
20:52:47 <andythenorth> is anyone actually in charge here these days? o_O
20:52:53 <andythenorth> or is it some kind of whuffie collective?
20:53:21 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Going by chat lines I would guess you :p
20:53:34 <andythenorth> I would be the worst BDFL ever
20:53:54 <andythenorth> but I would be quite happy to go around FS etc saying ‘no’ to things
20:54:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: for a start, there is noone to maintain the compile farm
20:54:58 <frosch123> i keeps on building binaries for deprecated distributions
20:55:04 <andythenorth> we have quite a lot of various web infrastructure eh?
20:55:08 <andythenorth> for a small group
20:55:53 <frosch123> it wasn't that small in the past
20:56:08 <frosch123> i think in 2008 there were > 10 active developers
20:56:24 <frosch123> most of them students
20:56:35 <andythenorth> oh we talked about this before
20:56:59 <Wolf01> <Shoshonite> and now? <- I can count them in one hand
20:57:02 <frosch123> Shoshonite: i think lordaro may be the only student in this channel who can code
20:57:23 <andythenorth> either they are doing other projects, or GFC drove them away from open source
20:57:33 <andythenorth> or we caught a wave who could remember original TTD from 1994
20:57:34 <Alberth> except no longer student :p
20:58:45 <Shoshonite> the implication being non-students have no time to code? I know I don't, or ability for that matter
20:59:07 * andythenorth wonders if the students also are working more now
20:59:36 <andythenorth> “Patches: Historically we encouraged people to submit patches to the ticket collector. These tickets are usually ignored forever. "
20:59:39 <frosch123> Shoshonite: i started on ottd because i couldn't stand working all day on my thesis
20:59:45 <Wolf01> In Italy sure they are working more... evil students stealing my job
20:59:46 <andythenorth> sounds like familiar territory ^^ :D
20:59:52 <frosch123> so, thesis in the morning, ottd in the afternoon, irc in the evening
21:00:12 <frosch123> oh yeah, i were coding off-line and only came for patch review :o
21:00:35 <andythenorth> probably quite a focussed way to do it eh
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21:01:24 <frosch123> after that i think i had a pretty constant though possibly low commit rate, until factorio appeared :p
21:01:26 <andythenorth> but then people rely on it to make money
21:02:00 <andythenorth> also frosch123 you added ~all the newgrf features I wanted :P
21:02:05 <andythenorth> there’s few ponies left
21:02:21 <andythenorth> NRT is more than a pony :)
21:02:39 <andythenorth> NRT is a test of how we can change a core game mechanic :)
21:02:40 <Wolf01> Yeah, that's in andy's patchpack
21:02:44 <andythenorth> will we win, or will we fuck up>?
21:03:02 <frosch123> i always liked patchpacks
21:03:08 <Wolf01> It doesn't change anything that hasn't been changed before with railtypes
21:03:16 <andythenorth> I wondered about encouraging a fork or something
21:03:25 <frosch123> 15 years ago i played a lot with povray
21:03:30 <andythenorth> but then….fragmentation
21:03:37 <frosch123> there was this inofficial version "megapov"
21:03:56 <frosch123> which had all kind of weird features. forums talked a lot about them
21:04:19 <frosch123> me and my friend always wondered why they did not make it into the main povray
21:04:26 <frosch123> until we actually tried them out
21:04:43 <frosch123> wow, did they have lots of corner cases and downsided...
21:05:00 <andythenorth> the Bootstrap CSS framework has a really strong approach on contributions
21:05:09 <andythenorth> (and a few comments down mdo comments again)
21:07:08 <andythenorth> “We don't aim to solve every problem—doing so would just add bloat to the framework for tons of other folks. I'm generally super hesitant to add anything these days only because there is already so much here.
21:07:08 <andythenorth> These kind of extensions are great add-ons to put in another repo on GitHub. Tell folks about, get feedback, gauge usage, and extend Bootstrap. We love that stuff.”
21:08:26 <frosch123> yep, my opinion on ottd is pretty much: the main branch is only for add-on apis
21:08:42 <frosch123> except that we have noone interested in ai and gs stuff :p
21:09:19 <andythenorth> if I _did_ do a patch pack, it would be a fork-and-dump
21:09:23 <andythenorth> I’d delete a bunch of things :P
21:09:33 <andythenorth> not going to find many internet fans with that approach
21:09:52 * andythenorth also has small problem of not being actual programmer
21:10:06 <frosch123> oh, there were teenagers on the forums in the past: they claimed to first delete all of newgrf
21:10:51 <frosch123> well, just the type of teenager who annuonce their big plans before coding one line
21:11:05 <frosch123> nothing wrong with that, just teenager stuff
21:11:08 <andythenorth> been there, done that
21:12:48 <milek7> gs api is too limited for any bigger modifications
21:13:27 <andythenorth> well then it’s c++, easy no :)
21:14:13 <frosch123> ottd does not have that engine <-> mod separation as modern games have
21:14:39 <frosch123> in modern games the main game itself is implemented with the same interfaces as for the mods
21:15:09 <frosch123> in ottd stuff has always been asymmetric: there is a base game in c++, and gs/ai/newgrf which modify that stuff in a completely different way
21:15:25 <andythenorth> eh well, migrating OpenTTD to that model would be....interesting
21:15:29 <andythenorth> also...challenging
21:15:30 <frosch123> which makes the add-ons very hard if they work against the c++ base
21:15:49 * andythenorth doesn’t play games
21:16:04 <andythenorth> how do games ensure MP safety with mods?
21:16:23 <andythenorth> also, based on my limited exposure to minecraft mods, they are broadly buggy as
21:16:31 <frosch123> factorio has a special section for desyncs with mods
21:16:39 <frosch123> *bug tracker section
21:17:26 <frosch123> other complex games like europa universalis 4 desync all the time
21:18:58 <frosch123> you can even tell by how the gui behaves in single player what is likely to cause desyncs
21:18:58 <frosch123> like there were exploits where you can do stuff by using a fast-clicker, which you were not allowed otherwise
21:18:59 <andythenorth> ok so seems there’s no obvious winning strategy here
21:18:59 <andythenorth> we found one winning strategy in my day job
21:18:59 <andythenorth> - make it as fast as possible to get new developers productive
21:19:09 <andythenorth> we focussed a lot of effort on that
21:19:12 <andythenorth> still haven’t won it
21:19:38 <frosch123> like: normally you are only allowed to press a button once, and then it is disabled for 5 minutes. if you could click fast enough (with an autoclicker) you could click it mutliple times and get multiple time the effect, before it disabled the button
21:20:34 <milek7> andythenorth: well, patching is much easier than working around limitations in gs api
21:21:05 <milek7> but then users cannot just download gs from bananas
21:22:20 <Alberth> patching should extend gs api, in that case,imho
21:22:45 <frosch123> Alberth: that only works if you do not fight ottd's core mechanics
21:23:12 <Alberth> and you don't have that in c++ ?
21:23:17 <frosch123> most gs want to remove city and station rating, which is just a very core mechanic of ottd
21:24:02 <andythenorth> most GS seem pretty uninspired
21:24:42 <Alberth> there isn't much power in gs, like milek says
21:25:00 <Alberth> pretty much NoAI + some extensions
21:25:19 * andythenorth can’t tell if we have a social problem, or an architecture problem :)
21:26:02 <andythenorth> but there are 147 patches in FS
21:26:33 <andythenorth> I am pretty happy just closing feature requests, especially if they conflict with published goals
21:26:38 <andythenorth> closing patches…dunno
21:26:50 <_dp_> town growth is pretty much the only "something else" in GS
21:27:05 <andythenorth> well there’s no control over industry
21:27:07 <_dp_> that's probably why there are 10 cb GS and nearly nothing more
21:27:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: did you play and of the cb gs? :p
21:28:25 <frosch123> i only played ncg and sv. all cb gs appeared incredible boring, just like the competitive servers
21:28:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: so yeah, it's a social problem
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21:31:50 <_dp_> when I'm playing cb it's very intense
21:32:32 <frosch123> well, i said multiple times. there multiple interest groups around ottd. the competitive guys are those i understand the least :)
21:33:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: I tried city-builders a couple of times, but boring as all hell
21:33:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: gs feature requests are dominated by competitive players and citybuilders :)
21:34:10 <andythenorth> timetable feature requests are dominated by people making model train sets
21:34:31 <frosch123> the patches are as boring as the gameplay they are intended for
21:34:34 <_dp_> frosch123, ofc they are, you can't just go with a suggestions gs like BB on a competitive server
21:35:08 <_dp_> it needs to have some influence over the gameplay
21:35:36 <frosch123> why don't you just play starcraft :p
21:35:43 <andythenorth> only 145 patches left :)
21:35:56 <_dp_> are there trains in starcraft?)
21:36:33 <andythenorth> _dp_ I don’t think it’s an argument that cb shouldn’t exist :)
21:37:04 <frosch123> factorio doesn't have competitive multiplayer
21:37:13 <frosch123> instead they go for competitive speedruns
21:37:24 <Wolf01> It does, you can organize players in forces
21:37:28 <andythenorth> a lot of the MP stuff in FS I feel really lost with :)
21:37:33 <andythenorth> I just don’t know enough
21:37:34 <Wolf01> Turrets attack other forces
21:37:38 <frosch123> which looks insane if you see it first. but would be incredible boring to me
21:37:40 <_dp_> competitive openttd isn't that much different from a speedrun
21:38:04 <frosch123> _dp_: do compeitive ottd players repeat building the same network on the same map
21:38:09 <frosch123> just trying to beat the previous time?
21:38:12 <Wolf01> OTTD is a speedrun anyway
21:38:28 <andythenorth> speedrun = Doom for me
21:38:38 <andythenorth> what’s a speedrun in OTTD context? o_O :P
21:38:41 <_dp_> frosch123, not exactly the same but overall strategy is so refined that it usually stays the same
21:38:55 <_dp_> what to transport, when and on what distance
21:39:01 <peter1138> and i just build stuff while trying to make it look nice :p
21:39:15 <frosch123> well, factorio speed runs are about palying the exact same map, and memorizing the building plan of two hours
21:39:23 <frosch123> and not mess up by putting something off by one tile
21:39:24 <andythenorth> in fact, I make things look ugly just to troll coop
21:40:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess speed runs in ottd fail because the player actions affect the random seed and then change the game progression
21:40:26 <_dp_> frosch123, I though about letting players replay same maps in openttd, but it's not that important since map doesn't matter much
21:40:42 <andythenorth> actually my 7 year old has asked us to put the game seed back in map gen window :P
21:40:51 <andythenorth> he seems to have learnt about seeds from minecraft or something
21:40:55 <frosch123> but if you disable all random production changes and industry spanws, you can make a ottd speed run by playing a fixed map and trying to reach 1M pounds in the fastest time
21:41:31 <frosch123> people will try to figure out the best order in which to build routes and repeat that over again
21:41:57 <frosch123> V453000: can you imagine building the exact same factorio factory twice?
21:42:26 <andythenorth> 1. ...what if we moved it all to github and pull requests?
21:42:40 <andythenorth> 2. ….what if we just rejected all patches not touched for 12 months?
21:42:41 <_dp_> frosch123, don't think production is enough, there is way too much random in openttd
21:42:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can use the seed on the console
21:42:51 <andythenorth> frosch123: saw that in a FS today :)
21:43:03 <V453000> yeah speedrunners do it, now they even gave it a cherry on top by literally blueprinting the whole factory in 1 blueprint and slapping it down at the beginning ... then it's just like a colouring book
21:43:22 <Alberth> vs2012 still a relevant thing?
21:43:33 <andythenorth> deprecate old crap :P
21:44:06 <frosch123> V453000: oh, that sounds like there should be a group talking about the good old times where you had to remember the layout
21:44:46 <V453000> eh not entirely, both approaches are quite dumb
21:44:56 <frosch123> Alberth: no idea what the compile farm runs
21:44:57 <V453000> but the newer just makes sure it's dumb
21:45:21 <_dp_> btw, there is actially a bit of an issue with cb in openttd that town growth is so random that you get about +-10% population for the same growth speed even with a good layouts
21:45:35 <V453000> I don't really see why would you even try to build the factory youself, you can just make a script which does it for you, and just invent the strategy for the script
21:45:49 <andythenorth> addendum to support for minor platforms: not for dead ones
21:46:03 <andythenorth> I know it’s economically discriminatory
21:46:27 * andythenorth checks his privilege
21:46:41 <frosch123> V453000: i like the coloring-book analogy
21:46:53 <andythenorth> is it mindfulness colouring?
21:48:19 <V453000> of course you have to think about some stuff like do I have XY yet, but yeah
21:48:36 <V453000> still there is something to the execution, like if you get the 4th mining drill before or after 19479th transport belt, but ...
21:48:47 <V453000> iterating it with AI would be so much simpler and better result
21:49:00 <V453000> if computers can do something better then they should do it
21:49:09 <andythenorth> does it have the record for comment counts?
21:49:17 <milek7> some time ago i made "city-network builder" gs
21:49:23 <milek7> which tried to compute town growth on basis of metric estimating how well-connected it is with other towns
21:50:02 <Wolf01> In contrast, extending or altering the gameplay of the base game is not encouraged.
21:51:38 <frosch123> Wolf01: i wrote that only this year, so it's mostly my opinion. but noone complained when i posted it here
21:52:25 <andythenorth> it’s pretty sound imho
21:52:45 <Alberth> there are a few nice patches in there
21:53:56 <andythenorth> quite a few seemed like they met the goals
21:54:04 <andythenorth> dunno if the patches are crap or not though
21:54:08 <_dp_> then why do even need a clone of a game? if you want a base game play a base game
21:54:50 <andythenorth> no newgrf in base game :D
21:55:12 <andythenorth> tbf, many other things missing too :)
21:55:16 <frosch123> the original game was already unplayable when i tried last in 2010(?)
21:55:17 <V453000> one thing I saw on novapolis or where ever that was really nice were the extra tile highlights like for station catchment areas etc
21:55:21 <LordAro> frosch123: i am no longer a student :)
21:55:29 <frosch123> the interface did not stand the time
21:55:29 <LordAro> graduated a month ago :)
21:55:32 <_dp_> V453000, still in citymania client ;)
21:55:41 <V453000> I probably saw it in both
21:56:04 <frosch123> V453000: yes, they are on my todo list, but meh
21:56:23 <_dp_> they kinda poorly implemented though
21:56:25 <frosch123> none of the patches convinced me, so i probably have to do it myself
21:57:16 <V453000> if someone gave me new brix sprites I probably wouldn't add them either
21:57:47 <Alberth> wait until you meet your future self :p
21:57:58 <frosch123> he, yeah, that's the nice thing about decentral stuff :) just fork your own stuff
21:58:09 <LordAro> andythenorth liked a bug report? :o
21:58:45 <andythenorth> if we closed all patch tickets that haven’t been edited for 5 years
21:58:48 <andythenorth> 62 would be gone
21:59:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: i remember trolling the forums by telling them that voting on fs it to vote for closure
21:59:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: some of them are in patchpacks
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22:00:06 <andythenorth> if the patch queue was kept very small, there might be more fun in reviewing, because the game is to keep it small
22:00:27 <andythenorth> also, on balance many people appreciate at least an answer even if it’s ‘no’
22:00:34 <andythenorth> silence is demotivating
22:01:15 <frosch123> well, most patches fail on basic stuff like indenting
22:01:23 <frosch123> it''s hopeless to explain that to people
22:01:43 <andythenorth> ach, I’m going to close 62
22:01:44 <frosch123> when i reviewed a patch, it usually ended up with rewriting it
22:01:48 <andythenorth> it can’t be worse than current
22:01:54 <andythenorth> how much more offense can I cause?
22:02:01 <andythenorth> and you can all blame me if kittens die :P
22:02:16 <frosch123> would be interesting if cirdan complains :)
22:02:35 <andythenorth> I’ll check them first in case I’m being really stupid
22:02:37 <frosch123> they ignored my patch for 10 years and then closed it because of statistics
22:03:45 <Wolf01> <frosch123> it''s hopeless to explain that to people <- that's why IDEs should have a configurable code layout settings per project
22:04:01 <frosch123> i doubt there will be a good solution to tsunami flooding
22:04:14 <andythenorth> no mass closure option? :(
22:04:20 <andythenorth> I don’t want to blame the technology
22:04:23 <frosch123> Wolf01: people even fail with indenting when using ides which auto-indent
22:04:33 <andythenorth> but FS is only slightly better than trac :P
22:04:34 <frosch123> i don't know how, but i have seen it multiple times at work
22:04:46 <andythenorth> which is the worst ticket system I ever used, including the one we wrote in house
22:05:12 <frosch123> fs is better than those e-mail based systems like bugzilla
22:06:25 <_dp_> frosch123, it's very easy to miss indentation when using tabs
22:06:41 <_dp_> and openttd is like the only project I know that uses tabs
22:06:49 <milek7> tabs are only sane option
22:06:59 <Alberth> fix your editor to show tabs vs spaces, and trailing white-space
22:07:22 <frosch123> i know, tabs are complicated
22:07:31 <frosch123> spaces are easier to explain to people
22:08:08 <frosch123> but in the end there is no point in argueing over "const int* a", "const int *a" and "int const *a"
22:08:41 <frosch123> the consistency matters more than some correctness
22:10:22 <andythenorth> incoming FS spam :P
22:11:08 <milek7> with tabs everybody can have different tab length set in their editor
22:11:13 <milek7> and with spaces this is impossible
22:11:31 <frosch123> milek7: yes, but that assumes that people are smart enough to understand spaces vs tabs
22:11:43 <frosch123> spaces are easier to teach to the average developer
22:12:03 <_dp_> milek7, for that to work you should only have tab indents and never mix tab+spaces
22:12:12 <_dp_> milek7, so no indent to brackets and such
22:12:17 <Wolf01> milek7, and maybe breaking those wonderful ascii art comments to explain things in the code?
22:12:33 <Wolf01> Also you may have a lot of mixed tabs+spaces
22:12:42 <Wolf01> Best is use only spaces
22:12:50 <peter1138> tabs are literally designed for aligning...
22:13:07 <milek7> _dp_: to indent to brackets you do tabs do indentation level, and then spaces to match with braces
22:13:27 <_dp_> milek7, yeah, and if someone changes tab size it all falls apart
22:13:39 <andythenorth> are we really having a tabs vs spaces debate? :o
22:13:47 <andythenorth> someone call the stereotype police :P
22:13:48 <peter1138> it's on the internet
22:13:57 <andythenorth> python vs php vs perl next?
22:14:02 <milek7> tab size only changes tabs, which should be used for identation level
22:14:04 <frosch123> _dp_: tabs do indeed work when done correctly. but as is just being proven here. milek7 will need 4 hours to explain it to someone else
22:14:23 <frosch123> all spaces, fixed indent is dead easy in comparison
22:15:10 <_dp_> frosch123, milek7 for one indentation mb, but if there are nested ones no, or stuff like assigment aligning when it's more than one tab it breaks
22:16:21 <andythenorth> semaphore versus colour signals
22:16:25 <andythenorth> that’s a feature that should have died :P
22:16:55 <frosch123> i like the signal gui on fs, whcih adds a separate toggle for semaphore/light
22:17:01 <frosch123> instead of two full rows
22:17:46 <_dp_> and I'd like a setting to completely remove semaphores from the game xD
22:17:50 <Wolf01> I would have liked a feature which allowed to convert all the semaphores to light signals, maybe one for railtypes too, maybe even one which plays for me
22:17:53 <LordAro> _dp_: tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment
22:18:11 <andythenorth> Wolf01: there are (were) a few requests for mass converting semaphore -> light
22:18:17 <frosch123> LordAro: ottd failed at it :p
22:18:25 <andythenorth> I rejected a bunch of them
22:21:15 <_dp_> this one doesn't seem to be particularly useful though, there is hardly anyone to talk with on servers nowdays :/
22:25:08 <_dp_> funny thing is I'm a bit reluctant to add more hotkeys to citymania client nowdays simply because there are so freaking many of them already xD
22:25:24 <_dp_> out of keys on keyboard :/
22:25:44 <peter1138> support joystick buttons
22:26:24 <_dp_> yeah, would be awesome actually
22:26:29 <_dp_> and dehardcode some keys
22:28:47 <V453000> andythenorth: if I understand correctly , the part of pixa which adds palette does a deepcopy of a sample PNG just for palette, and pastes it by putpalette to your desired PNG?
22:29:24 <andythenorth> deepcopy because sometimes PIL is changing stuff otherwise
22:29:38 <V453000> whatever I just do the same :)
22:29:43 <andythenorth> I’d have to go read it :P
22:29:50 * andythenorth is having fun closing tickets
22:30:05 <V453000> I finally have everything solved, it outputs one big file as it should
22:30:08 <V453000> just not paletted yet
22:31:30 * andythenorth wishes timetables weren’t
22:31:43 <andythenorth> they attract a particular level of detailed request
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22:36:56 <V453000> ValueError: illegal image mode
22:37:35 <andythenorth> 82 patches in FS :)
22:37:54 <andythenorth> I wonder how many could be closed as ‘basically, this is bollocks’ :)
22:39:42 <Wolf01> I think you could spare time by wiping out the database and start fresh
22:40:15 <frosch123> then you would break my bookmarks
22:40:33 <frosch123> which would destroy my dreams of ever making the list shorter
22:40:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: we could write a FS clone that just does http redirects to something else :P
22:41:02 <andythenorth> I have access to a python url redirection framework for that :P
22:41:08 <frosch123> also, old fs tasks are actually useful
22:41:23 <frosch123> sometimes you can only figure out the meaning of a commit by reading the linked fs task
22:41:54 <andythenorth> also FS rewards masochism
22:42:05 <andythenorth> it’s hard to use, so it’s like doing some kind of exercise :P
22:42:13 <andythenorth> btw, it’s also broken :P
22:42:22 <andythenorth> I can’t reopen any tasks :P
22:42:25 <frosch123> did you crash it again?
22:42:38 <andythenorth> doesn’t like percentage complete being null
22:42:45 <andythenorth> logs are probably showing my errors
22:46:09 <Zuu> A patch I forgot that I have written shown up in my inbox :-)
22:46:32 <andythenorth> I have given that experience to about 50 people tonight :)
22:46:35 <Zuu> Ctrl+Tab focus cycling :-)
22:46:37 <andythenorth> it’s like being Bad Santa
22:47:32 *** Progman has joined #openttd
22:47:35 * Wolf01 is going to vent his frustrations on TF
22:49:03 <Zuu> Oh.. I stopped playing it long ago. It was rewarding but frustrating. You had to learn what things to just accept and not try to fix.
22:49:39 <_dp_> andythenorth, isn't it still playable while doing threaded autosave?
22:49:52 <Zuu> The patches/updates made it less frustrating though compared to when it came out.
22:50:08 <andythenorth> _dp_: dunno, test it? :)
22:50:13 <andythenorth> and comment on the issue? o_O
22:50:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, I don't even sp, no idea how autosave works :p
22:52:48 <andythenorth> so a patch needs to comply with:
22:52:55 <andythenorth> - savegame safety
22:53:11 <V453000> apparently pasting a RGBA image into a "L" image, whatever that is, does not give what I would expect :D got to handle it differently
22:53:19 <andythenorth> - provide / not break APIs
22:53:26 <andythenorth> - ‘is it a good idea'
22:54:28 <andythenorth> and it need play-tested for bugs
22:54:50 <frosch123> nah, the letter is not needed
22:54:54 <frosch123> it has never worked
22:55:27 <andythenorth> V453000: what are you trying to do? Apply the palette? o_O
22:55:46 <V453000> I actually managed to apply it, that image is index and seems like it has the right palette from deepcopy
22:56:05 <V453000> it's just that when I paste the image into the "L" image, I guess that's where colours go fucked
22:56:33 <andythenorth> it will be getting palette translated somehow
22:56:41 <andythenorth> there’s always crap with this job
22:56:45 <V453000> well yeah I guess that's what is happening
22:56:52 <V453000> I'm thinking I can do it easier
22:57:12 <V453000> and have the picture which goes into the combiner already be in index
22:57:23 <V453000> I know the index when comparing it to the 32bpp after all
22:57:31 <V453000> so it should be just slight tweak to the comparer function
22:58:02 <V453000> and then paste has a masking option so I can just set which area to copy, which I know from the thread splitting parameters
22:59:02 <andythenorth> V453000: I am too brain-fried tonight to look more :)
22:59:27 <V453000> I -think- that it will work, I just need to do it
22:59:35 <V453000> but brain is borkd too
22:59:47 <V453000> probably good time to gtfo
23:00:10 <V453000> did progress, main thing works
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23:05:30 <V453000> index 3 gives me alpha pink
23:05:37 <V453000> index 128 seems to work
23:07:43 <andythenorth> should I close more FS? o_O
23:07:50 <andythenorth> later it gets, worse my judgement :P
23:09:14 <andythenorth> just 80 patches to review now eh peter1138 :D
23:09:20 <andythenorth> be done by Wednesday probs
23:09:30 <_dp_> andythenorth, have you considered changing some bugs to confirmed instead? ;)
23:09:40 <andythenorth> I did confirm one :P
23:09:45 <Shoshonite> judgement? I had envissioned a wack-a-mole type secnario!
23:09:56 <andythenorth> ‘Closed: outdated against trunk'
23:10:03 <andythenorth> ‘Closed: doesn’t compile’
23:10:14 <andythenorth> ‘Closed: ignores basic coding style guidelines'
23:10:21 <andythenorth> ‘Closed: clown shoes'
23:11:17 <V453000> index 1-9 gives me pure pink
23:11:31 <andythenorth> your palette got sorted somewhere? o_O
23:11:32 <_dp_> 'Closed: doesn't have a patch'
23:11:40 <_dp_> with this should be enough to close them all :p
23:11:49 <V453000> I just and only deepcopy from my nuts image
23:11:58 <V453000> and I set an index manually
23:12:19 <V453000> currently just trying flat singlecolor images to see how indexes work
23:12:25 <andythenorth> fuck me V453000 now I have to go read code :P
23:12:34 <andythenorth> and I haven’t had ‘stay awake’ coffeee
23:12:46 <V453000> index 0 works too ._.
23:13:21 *** Progman has joined #openttd
23:14:24 <andythenorth> which is itself auto-generated from a palette, but eh :P
23:14:36 <andythenorth> can’t fuck that one up
23:15:17 <V453000> I will try with this one but if it works in NUTS then wtf :)
23:15:37 <V453000> I wonder if some nuts pictures could have windows palette
23:15:45 <V453000> but that sounds awfully unlikely
23:15:57 <andythenorth> create an image with P
23:16:05 <andythenorth> then put the palette in it
23:16:12 <andythenorth> then paste stuff into it
23:16:17 <V453000> yeah that's the same as what I do
23:16:46 <andythenorth> what’s that “L” thing?
23:16:49 * andythenorth looks in PIL docs
23:16:59 <V453000> some palette colour mode
23:17:06 <V453000> like RGB, RGBA, P, there is L
23:17:52 <Shoshonite> I take someone elses png and copy my stuff into it, saves learning, because that hurts
23:18:21 <Shoshonite> thats what you are talking about right?
23:18:23 <andythenorth> and put the palette in before paste
23:18:46 <andythenorth> V453000: if you paste into image with wrong palette, your paste will get transposed
23:19:37 <andythenorth> Shoshonite: not exactly
23:19:40 <V453000> I'll just not paste RGBA, I will make a new "P" or "L" image from the comparer, I'm just wtf about why is grayscale fucked
23:21:00 <V453000> now I need to try your palette file but this looks like something else is fucked
23:21:26 <andythenorth> are you pasting the alpha channel or something?
23:22:01 <V453000> but still, why would it replace blacks
23:22:39 <andythenorth> L14 defines combined_image
23:22:44 <andythenorth> but L18 will modify it
23:23:01 <andythenorth> it’s an alpha composite I guess
23:23:32 <V453000> just puts them together
23:24:05 <andythenorth> what happens if you dump them to disk during each stage of the loop (with a different filename)
23:24:10 <andythenorth> do they look right?
23:24:25 <andythenorth> PIL is funny about reassigning an image sometimes
23:24:47 <andythenorth> “probably fine”, but I’d check that with Image.show() if I was doing it here
23:25:51 <V453000> regardless your palette fixes the beginning indexes
23:26:01 <V453000> but as you say, the things get transposed
23:29:11 <V453000> image before putting palette and pasting looks right
23:29:30 <V453000> guess I try pasting first and putting palette later, outputting after paste
23:30:53 <V453000> apparently the L is literally just luminance (duh), so it converts it to grayscale
23:31:03 <V453000> or something like that
23:31:11 <V453000> and then the palette somehow takes the brightness as index
23:33:53 <V453000> I will try to rewrite the comparer to output indexed pictures which I can just combine using a mask, it makes too much sense not to do it
23:33:58 <andythenorth> looks great in gray
23:35:00 <V453000> well, investigation was interesting, progress was done, using correct palette from you helps a ton XD
23:38:04 <andythenorth> Shoshonite: palettes are pretty easy ;)
23:39:26 <V453000> admittedly I did the same when I was doing NUTS
23:39:42 <V453000> was always more sure that it will work rather than applying the palette again for insecurity
23:39:50 <V453000> also my NUTS files usually already include the swatches :)
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