IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-13
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00:01:25 <Wolf01> Here you can close at sunday and holidays, but like max 5 days
00:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> just a few decades ago shops weren't even allowed open in the evening
00:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> shops had to close at 17:00, and thursdays 18:30
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00:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> they relaxed that rule to 22:00, and meanwhile you see ocasional exceptions for 24h shops (except sundays)
00:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so they're open like monday 6:00 to saturday 22:00 or so
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10:37:33 <TrueBrain> but .. it did not find the interface to route packets on
10:38:04 <TrueBrain> I am just really happy the whole infrastructure is fractured .. only the main gateway lost its way :P So an easy reboot
10:38:16 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you can use the wiki again!!! :P
10:40:37 <andythenorth> can you leave FS offline? o_O
10:41:12 <TrueBrain> I was looking for a forum thread yelling it was offline, but it isnt there! :D
10:41:27 <TrueBrain> that made me look into another thread .. that made me lookup stats about the traffic etc
10:41:34 <andythenorth> do we get traffic?
10:41:50 <TrueBrain> after 2 years of a "poor" summar, we are back on the traffc as it was in 2014
10:42:35 <TrueBrain> we are very steady in the amount of visitors per month
10:42:36 <andythenorth> is that up or down? o_O
10:42:41 <andythenorth> are we dying less or moar?
10:42:55 <TrueBrain> from a statistical perspective, we are neither
10:42:57 <Flygon> Wolf01: I forgot you can Linux ISO.
10:43:03 <TrueBrain> 500k unique visitors a month
10:43:14 <andythenorth> how many are bots?
10:43:23 <TrueBrain> as far as I can look back .. which is 6 years .. that is give or take the number
10:43:29 <andythenorth> 500k is, relatively, a shitload
10:43:35 <TrueBrain> (goes up to 800k sometimes, sometimes 300k)
10:43:52 <TrueBrain> we push 1TB of data every week of binaries
10:44:08 <TrueBrain> and that is data we register (so ignoring Linux distros, basically)
10:44:08 <Shoshonite> thats a lot of 0 and 1
10:44:41 <TrueBrain> @calc 1000000 / 24 / 60 / 60
10:44:41 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 11.5740740741
10:44:48 <TrueBrain> 11 requests per second ON AVERAGE over a FULL DAY
10:45:38 <andythenorth> probably dying same then
10:46:12 <TrueBrain> it always strikes me .. as I do agree with your opinion, it feels like OpenTTD is slowly dying ever since .. well .. 2010 or something .. (which is fine in my opinion)
10:46:18 <TrueBrain> but the traffic tells a completely different story
10:46:30 <TrueBrain> so I guess: the verbal people see less activity
10:46:37 <TrueBrain> the users themself enjoy the game every day
10:46:41 <TrueBrain> not more, not less :)
10:46:57 <andythenorth> I look at downloads of newgrfs in bananaramas
10:47:02 <andythenorth> always seems pretty constant
10:47:27 <TrueBrain> if you are interested in HTTP hits
10:47:29 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> errors are a lot <- even syntax errors... did he even try to compile before pushing?
10:47:39 <andythenorth> Wolf01: no idea :)
10:48:33 <TrueBrain> so I wonder how the stats do not match the feeling :D
10:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: fake news
10:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that's pretty much summing up politics over the last decade or so
10:49:14 <Wolf01> BTW, I have a lot of / not overloaded for Money and uint16
10:49:51 <TrueBrain> @calc 750 / (180 + 750)
10:49:51 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.806451612903
10:49:58 <TrueBrain> on other relevant news, 80% of our users uses HTTPS
10:50:13 <andythenorth> “it is dying” = “there’s nothing new and shiny"
10:50:22 <andythenorth> two kinds of attitude to it
10:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you should disable http, then it's 100% :p
10:50:33 <andythenorth> “it is stable, I am playing"
10:50:43 <andythenorth> “it is not novelty, it is dying"
10:51:14 <TrueBrain> yeah .. I am serious poundering disabling HTTP
10:51:17 <TrueBrain> fr various of reasons
10:51:24 <TrueBrain> 6 months ago it was 50% btw
10:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause> do spammers use https yet?
10:51:56 <TrueBrain> but anyway, good morning all, and have a good day :D
10:52:13 <TrueBrain> poke me if anything is still not working on the internet service side :)
10:54:56 <andythenorth> 4/8 mail car, 8/8 mail car (might remove, redundant, just use 2x 4/8)
10:55:09 <andythenorth> 8/8 pax coach, 10/8 articulated pax-mail coach
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10:58:04 <LordAro> peter1138: if you're looking for a patch queue to add... ;)
11:02:50 <Wolf01> I got JJ's last to compile, too bad it crashes loading the title savegame
11:03:29 <Wolf01> Are you compiling master?
11:06:51 <LordAro> no issues at all here
11:07:11 <LordAro> heh, titlescreen looks really bare on 1440p
11:09:41 <Wolf01> It's strange that everybody got a different problem
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11:15:10 <Shoshonite> Do any of the wisened individuals here have any newGRF vehicle sprite alignment tricks they can share?
11:15:55 <Shoshonite> trying to get vehicles to run up a single lane of road in the center of the tile
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11:18:49 <Shoshonite> Hadn't considered that, seems practical
11:21:02 <andythenorth> you can shift the offsets
11:21:12 <andythenorth> I wouldn’t recommend it :P
11:24:10 <Shoshonite> It will probably make the model jerk around corners too. Blarg
11:26:33 <_dp_> bot traffic grows so if overall stays the same it means less humans :p
11:26:52 <_dp_> from server activity I'd say there are about 10% less players than last year
11:30:35 <andythenorth> Shoshonite: it will snap horribly in corners ;)
11:30:42 <andythenorth> what are you trying to do? o_O
11:34:21 <Wolf01> What it should be done with vehicle movement instead :P
11:34:42 <_dp_> oh, it's 16% actually for mar-jul
11:45:59 <Wolf01> Where has been moved the titlescreen?
11:54:31 <Wolf01> Ok, I was able to load it with the new titlescreen (it still asserts after some time)... I can't see many differences beside joinable docks
12:04:20 <Wolf01> Oh, bigger depots needed to be enabled in the settings
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13:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yeah, but if only he spoke a language anyone could understand :p
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13:55:37 <Flygon_> I've had OTTD stations turn out like that.
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13:55:57 <Flygon> Somehow had really rare edge case where 50-60 tile long freight trains made sense.
14:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i've seen this one before
14:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a weird edge case :p
14:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because the green arrow tells you "you can turn right on red light"
14:20:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can only turn right anyway
14:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the light doesn't need to turn green
14:20:59 <Wolf01> Here we would leave the yellow light blinking
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14:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but some obscure bureaucratic rule tells that it's necessary to still have a light
14:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> well, those exit too, traffic lights that eternally blink yellow
14:22:05 <Wolf01> Yellow mean to pay attention when entering the intersection
14:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but blinking yellow is different, blinking yellow means "treat this light as off [signs apply instead]"
14:25:49 <Wolf01> No, blinking yellow mean to pay attention, they signal a possible danger
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14:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> blinking yellow means "this traffic light is temporarily out of service"
14:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are different types of blinking yellow lights
14:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also "there is a traffic light ahead and it's red" type of blinking yellow light
14:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and "this is a construction site" type of blinking yellow light
14:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, still, the red light is technically correct. just a bit weird
14:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> red light with green arrow is technically mostly the same as a stop sign
14:31:26 <Flygon> Eddi|zuHause: I mean, we handle that situation here by not having the light at all (Assuming I have the mental gymnastics in my head) - By only having lights for turning, not going forward. But it's actually really difficult to visualize the intersection in my head. :D
14:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: you can zoom out?
14:32:29 <Flygon> OH THERE'S A GOOGLE MAPS LINK
14:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the main point is, because the rest of the crossing has traffic lights, this entrance to the crossing must also have one
14:32:57 <Flygon> Okay, yeah. That situation is DEFINITELY handled differently here. :D
14:34:01 <Flygon> What a very German bureaucratic problem. :3
14:34:02 <Wolf01> Flygon: isn't that for tram/bus?
14:34:18 <Flygon> Wolf01: Yeah, but most Americans don't pick up on it.
14:36:51 <Flygon> It's really fun screwing with their minds - They don't tend to consider Trams having their own system!
14:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you can see our tram signalling on above crossing, too
14:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if you look at it from the other directions
14:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it uses white bars/dots instead of colours, though, so is easily distinguishable
14:39:14 <Alberth> discussing future NRT extensions? :)
14:39:54 <Wolf01> I bet you can't see what's strange at first glance
14:40:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you must go straight on the roundabout, obviously.
14:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> can't turn right, must go a full round
14:41:34 <Wolf01> I fucked up and did that in front of the local police :P
14:42:21 <Wolf01> Because I was following the GPS and it made me do a full round and go from where I came
14:42:43 <Wolf01> I turned back to the other roundabout and turned right there :P
14:44:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand the whole craze about roundabouts
14:44:44 <Wolf01> They could have used a better sign, like a forbid sign, instead of indication sign
14:45:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a bit of time and a decent lawyer, you might want to challenge the sign
14:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause> because a sign forbidding a turn like that must have a valid reason to be there
14:47:21 <Wolf01> Yes, the reason was explained by the person I was going to meet, it's a narrow curve and people used to take it at fast speed, some crashes happened
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14:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> did the police cite you on this, or just issue a warning?
14:49:08 <Wolf01> No, I think they didn't even see me, or maybe they are used to this behavior
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14:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: completely blue (transparent) lines may be cut from sprites, and the offsets are automatically adjusted
14:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you can suppress that with the -c option
14:52:04 <stefino> so I have to cut out transparent parts corectly to get right absolute offsets
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14:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> stefino: no, you don't have to do that
14:54:41 <Flygon> <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand the whole craze about roundabouts
14:55:09 <Flygon> Our local Shire Council managed to get a lot of shit for replacing a set of traffic lights with a roundabout around 15 years ago.
14:55:31 <Flygon> The roundabout is now considered one of THE most dangerous intersections inside the town now.
14:55:41 <Flygon> Especially since it tends to rain here.
14:56:08 <Flygon> Peak hour + Lots of impatient drivers + Lots of traffic backed up + Traffic coming in from all directions = Tonnes of wheelslip and the roundabout full of traffic.
14:56:10 <Wolf01> I'm usually against replacing traffic lights with roundabouts, but I would like to have roundabouts in place of plain junctions on main roads, since it's really difficult to turn left usually
14:56:22 <Flygon> It's a miracle we haven't had a multi-car pile up.
14:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> they replaced a regular crossing with a roundabout here. i usually drive straight across it (they paved the center, to make it easier for trucks to turn)
14:58:26 <Wolf01> "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." funny google...
14:58:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i see the problem: they built it the wrong way around
14:59:20 <Flygon> Eddi: S'more... the Tramlines and amount of traffic going through. :V
14:59:53 <Flygon> They installed Traffic Lights in it. About 5 years ago. It was veritable hell to drive through. Still is. @_@
14:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: we used to have such a monstrosity
15:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: then they built the tram one layer deeper
15:00:30 <Flygon> Yeah, I'm not sure we'll ever submerge or viaduct the relevant Tramlines.
15:01:14 <Flygon> There's a few - well, quite a few other Tramlines going through roundabouts in the city (Comes with the world's largest Tram network :V), but this's the worst of them.
15:01:41 <Flygon> Wolf01: That solution is EXTREMELY popular here.
15:03:34 <Flygon> Ooh, yeah. Definitely much more room to sink the Tramline in.
15:04:12 <Flygon> (I'm not sure how they plan to 'fix up' the intersection - This segment of the line IS being viaducted)
15:04:21 <stefino> Eddi - ok, so thank you :)
15:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: they significantly changed the routes of the tram
15:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: where the tram is now, used to be a passenger tunnel. the tram lines from the north and from the south and from the west used to run in the center of the road
15:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and meet in the center of the circle
15:07:26 <Eddi|zuHause> err, s/west/east
15:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a tram line from the west, but that was eliminated much earlier
15:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: part of the problem was that the trams from the south entered the circle between the two bridges, and thus were hard to see from a car
15:09:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (there were no traffic lights at that time)
15:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> this was also the highest-traffic intersection in the whole region
15:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so you had like 3 tram accidents per day
15:11:46 <Flygon> Why didn't they have interum traffic lights?
15:12:11 <Flygon> They're definitely NOT the perfect solution - Haymarket Roundabout gets a few prangs still - But they really do help.
15:12:18 <Wolf01> BTW, after NRT I would like to make some changes at vehicle movement
15:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, automatic tram-activated traffic lights only entered the picture about 20 years ago, and the reconstruction planning started like 15 years ago
15:13:31 <Wolf01> Having 2 lanes roads (4 lanes on the same tile, without pavements maybe) could be nice
15:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: *cough* statemachines *cough*
15:15:55 <Flygon> We've had Tram activated lights for about as long as we've individually tracked Trams.
15:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: but you didn't have communism
15:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i suppose it could have been possible, there were tram-activated switches already in place (was a custom solution by our local tram company around 50 years ago)
15:17:51 <Flygon> Eddi|zuHause: I... uhm, admittedly, forgot that factor.
15:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: but that wasn't really that much of a problem, because there was not that much car traffic
15:18:14 <Flygon> Though, I gotta say - It's a miracle we kept our Tram network at all. :V
15:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but car numbers really exploded about 25 years ago
15:18:25 <Flygon> Every single other city in the continent followed the American example blindly.
15:18:55 <Flygon> About the only reason ours 'became' the biggest on the planet is because everyone tore up their even huger networks.
15:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> which suddenly created problems that weren't there before, while at the same time there was not enough money to solve all the other problems that built up over 40 years of communism
15:19:41 <Flygon> Yeah, that rapid shift would be hugely problematic.
15:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ... while the whole economy was collapsing
15:20:40 <Flygon> Yeah. It's truly impossible for someone like me to grasp the full effect of it.
15:20:47 <Flygon> Being tucked away on my little corner of the planet.
15:21:38 <Flygon> Of the "If they don't take PayPal, I'll buy it for you if you send me the money" variety.
15:22:08 <Flygon> I've never heard of a modern store not taking PayPal.
15:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but you definitely also need some of the expansions...
15:23:04 <Wolf01> The problem is that I need 2 days to transfer money to paypal
15:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: paypal, at least here, offers to pull the money from your bank account, and will indicate that transfer to the receiver immediately (before they actually get the money)
15:25:04 <Wolf01> I need to try to change my bank account tied to paypal
15:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: at least all the things i ever bought with paypal were delivered immediately
15:26:14 <milek7> "pull the money fron your bank account"?
15:26:47 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: dunno how to describe it, or if it even has an english word
15:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: dictionary says "direct debit"
15:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno how equivalent that is
15:28:44 <milek7> but how it is authorized? just by iban number?
15:29:10 <Wolf01> Meh... 4-5 days to confirm the account
15:29:49 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: i think they make a test charge on the account
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15:33:27 <Wolf01> Too bad paypal won't allow me to configure my debt card
15:33:37 <milek7> but you only need to enter your bank account to pay from it, like in debit/credit cards?
15:34:52 <Wolf01> You must confirm it with the data in the payment description they send you
15:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, i set that up like a decade ago, and don't remember all the details
15:37:54 <milek7> sounds horribly insecure
15:39:01 <Wolf01> Not an actual password :P
15:39:11 <milek7> here payment providers typically have integration with bank api to redirect to bank site with prefilled transfer details
15:40:47 <milek7> and they have account in all supported banks to verify payment immediately
15:43:33 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: snail was last seen in #openttd 8 weeks, 2 days, 0 hours, 41 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Snail> I’ll post something on his thread then, thanks
15:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: well, with debit payments like that, the account owner can reject the payment up to 6 weeks later
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15:54:51 <milek7> revert transfer already done? weird
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16:01:00 <Wolf01> I knew I shouldn't have changed bank, now I have 2 OTP devices and I should remove the old one... but I can't and I can't register the new one, and if they remove the old one I wouldn't be able to access to the web banking
16:15:54 <andythenorth> OpenTTD does in fact seem to know what a brake van is
16:16:12 <andythenorth> autoreplace handles brake vans perfectly
16:17:42 <Wolf01> Did you try with autoremoval of wagons?
16:18:19 <andythenorth> only removes the type(s) being replaced, if they’re too long
16:18:40 <Wolf01> Even if you replace the engine with a longer one?
16:18:46 <Alberth> still a partial solution :p
16:18:54 <andythenorth> Wolf01: dunno, didn’t try that
16:19:18 <andythenorth> wagon removal doesn’t apply if it’s the engine that’s longer
16:19:41 <Wolf01> Doesn't apply or fail with caboose?
16:23:44 <Wolf01> You should enable the voting system on FS, there is one IIRC
16:24:13 <andythenorth> that sounds super spiffy awesome
16:24:27 <andythenorth> the reason “nothing gets patched” is clearly because we don’t have votes :D
16:29:16 <andythenorth> so many George FS requests
16:30:04 <Wolf01> Uhm... votes were enabled back in time
16:32:53 <Wolf01> Also the most wanted tasks is disappeared
16:38:49 * andythenorth wants to close 2302
16:40:16 * andythenorth is probably biased
16:40:36 <andythenorth> ‘breakdowns: off’ all the way here
16:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a BAD REASON
16:42:29 <Alberth> less severe breakdowns could persuade users to keep it on
16:45:47 <Eddi|zuHause> although the main problem with breakdowns is not that they break down, but that you have no means of mitigation for your network
16:48:13 <andythenorth> all that extra breakdowns stuff just seems like extra docs to write :P
16:48:23 <andythenorth> also newgrf authors will want control over it
16:51:06 <andythenorth> could we introduce a UI scripting language?
16:54:42 <Wolf01> If the UI would be designed in xaml or similar it would be better
16:54:45 * andythenorth sees a bunch of FS that is people wanting quite custom, specific ‘click this button’ crap
16:54:54 <andythenorth> ‘can haz magic button'
16:55:05 * andythenorth has more buttons than needed already
16:55:11 <andythenorth> I only just learnt what ‘force upgrade’ does
16:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that one is my fault :p
16:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, the next monument is going to be tricky, i need 10000 squares of office buildings (not commercial), and i only have short of 4000
16:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and 0 demand for anything
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17:01:31 <Guest2300> Hello. I downloaded World Airliners Set 0.1 from within the game. When using the NewGRF, airports are disabled in the game. Any idea why that might be?
17:02:06 * andythenorth is pretty certain, but eh
17:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it has some use cases
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17:06:11 <andythenorth> orders are supposed to be deterministic?
17:06:16 <andythenorth> or do I misunderstand?
17:08:56 <Alberth> power is pretty determinstic
17:09:32 <andythenorth> totally randomisable
17:09:33 <Alberth> it's ok to use conditions, if the conditions are constants
17:09:44 <andythenorth> nearly anything on a newgrf cb is not a constant
17:10:45 <Alberth> although I never understood why you want to have orders depending on properties of that train
17:11:24 <Alberth> just adding useless complexity
17:14:15 <_dp_> would be actually quite handy to fix mistakes with shared orders
17:14:29 <_dp_> split them with orders rather than having hunt them all one-by-one
17:14:47 <andythenorth> my FS mission here is partially to try and separate wood from trees
17:14:54 <andythenorth> there are so many similar-ish requests
17:15:01 <andythenorth> some might have a common grain of truth, maybe
17:15:15 <andythenorth> I’ve killed nearly 100 issues I think
17:15:44 <Alberth> _dp_: open list of trains on same shared order, pick one, unshare, fix, pick other and share new, done
17:16:36 <Alberth> and different stats only works if you really have different engines
17:16:44 <_dp_> Alberth, ... repeat 50 times, done :p
17:17:16 <Alberth> no, you can just share the new with all of them
17:18:01 <_dp_> Alberth, what if I want to share new with only half of them?
17:18:20 <andythenorth> send 50% of them to depot
17:18:26 <andythenorth> build new trains
17:18:27 <Alberth> how do you split a set of trains that are identical?
17:18:36 <_dp_> usually happens when I accidently shared wrong orders with onther group already
17:18:45 * andythenorth does that sometimes
17:18:50 <andythenorth> but then we have autosave eh?
17:19:20 <Alberth> the right solution is to give them a new order, not keep sharing some meta-order
17:19:21 <_dp_> It's not much of a problem if they are identical))
17:19:39 <_dp_> But if it's say coal trains with farm trains orders...
17:20:28 <_dp_> andythenorth, yeah, that's what I do sometimes but usually just ignore them
17:20:40 <Alberth> the point is, you don't always have stats that are different
17:21:51 <_dp_> well, mb, I just though of a problem that might help to solve sometimes
17:21:58 <Alberth> and you still have the big meta order you cannot unshare between the groups
17:23:00 <_dp_> Alberth, can send wrong ones into depot at least
17:24:14 <andythenorth> shows in part the weakness of groups
17:24:36 <andythenorth> group can be made from shared order, but no way to assign shared order to group
17:26:14 <frosch123> from today's pov you would likely make groups work on top of shared orders
17:26:28 <frosch123> you would display shared orders as "routes" and then group those
17:26:50 <andythenorth> sounds plausible
17:27:20 <frosch123> may be worth looking up the original groups topic
17:27:26 <frosch123> to check what they were initially intended for :p
17:30:08 <andythenorth> it was for replacing
17:30:26 <andythenorth> related to mass-replacement of track
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17:34:11 <frosch123> i guess it's all bjarni's fault :p
17:34:21 <andythenorth> you should write a blame bot
17:34:25 <andythenorth> they’re quite useful
17:34:33 <andythenorth> DorpsGek: blame frosch123
17:34:45 <andythenorth> see, DorpsGek doesn’t spread blame
17:35:21 <andythenorth> @blame frosch123
17:42:59 <DorpsGek> frosch123: blames andy
17:51:29 <andythenorth> you closing it, or me?
17:51:42 * andythenorth is practicing saying ‘no’ in different ways
17:51:47 <frosch123> i haven't visited forums in a week
17:51:55 <frosch123> now i have > 30 unread flyspray mails :p
17:52:30 <milek7> i think 240 companies is more useful :>
17:52:56 <andythenorth> I got more blunt about closing tasks, instead of ‘request closure'
17:53:17 <frosch123> well, i have bookmarks to all the tasks i am interested in
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17:53:27 <frosch123> so the status of a task never mattered
17:54:07 <frosch123> bookmarks also work on forums and reddit and whateer
17:55:02 <andythenorth> it’s become a meta-game, can I get below 700 tasks?
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17:55:12 <andythenorth> a lot of them are either legit, or way out my ability to judge
17:55:18 <andythenorth> like all the crash reports :P
17:55:46 <LordAro> there are quite a lot of crash reports where there's just not enough information to draw any meaningful conclusion from
17:56:24 <frosch123> well, one conclusion is to replace icu with harfbuzz
17:56:52 <andythenorth> if we’re not doing six-sigma statistics to cluster bug reports
17:57:00 <andythenorth> then all the ones that lack info should be shut
17:57:04 <andythenorth> they’re just noise
17:59:31 <frosch123> maybe we can excite LordAro to read up on harfbuzz :)
17:59:44 <andythenorth> go on then LordAro
18:00:15 * andythenorth deletes a “Toll Plazas” feature request
18:01:00 <LordAro> what's wrong with ICU, anyway?
18:01:14 <frosch123> it crashes a lot on newer windows with newer standard fonts
18:01:20 <frosch123> like "times new roman"
18:01:34 <frosch123> it's also deprecated//unsupported for n years
18:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: who would ever use that font?
18:02:22 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it was the example on the wiki :p
18:02:41 <frosch123> which means that it worked for years, and then with either a windows upgrade or a compile farm upgrade it broke
18:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and who reads the wiki?
18:03:13 <frosch123> isn't it the most linked page here?
18:03:14 <LordAro> frosch123: look through my patch queue(s) and we'll talk :p
18:03:59 <andythenorth> one more closure and I hit 750 left :P
18:04:03 <andythenorth> nobody add any more :P
18:04:40 <LordAro> andythenorth: what, ever? :p
18:05:54 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: well, since there's no development there can't be new bugs, and new feature requests will be deleted by andy anyway, so...
18:08:00 <andythenorth> if feature requests are what drives development, we have enough :P
18:08:09 <andythenorth> is that how it works? o_O
18:10:19 <Alberth> most FS requests don't count as such, since they are non-feasible, or too edge-case
18:13:49 <andythenorth> peter1138 has a patch for that
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18:17:34 <andythenorth> Can we remove inflation entirely?
18:18:23 <frosch123> i came to the conclusion that it's not even worth the effort to discuss money stuff
18:18:50 <andythenorth> I would be prepared to answer all player whining if we just delete inflation
18:19:51 <frosch123> Wolf01: read up on halfbuzz :p
18:20:36 <andythenorth> or delete inflation
18:20:46 <andythenorth> it could be the actual April Fool’s
18:20:54 <andythenorth> “No we really have deleted it"
18:23:05 <Wolf01> "changed fonts to comic sans"
18:23:44 <frosch123> ottd is an old game, dom casual would fit better
18:31:55 <LordAro> oh, that's why vim's syntax highlighting is freaking out
18:31:59 <LordAro> it thinks this file is cobol
18:32:03 <andythenorth> why change the palette on a newgrf? All they do is break
18:35:55 <Alberth> saving makes sense, to solve the problem for older newgrfs
18:36:13 <Alberth> but that could be done together with saving parameter settings
18:36:28 <andythenorth> “don’t use broken newgrfs” imho
18:36:59 <frosch123> we may have outlived the problem :p
18:38:45 <frosch123> oh, now it's 43 unread mails
18:38:49 <frosch123> maybe i should get a new account
18:40:38 * andythenorth stopped reading email 5 years ago
18:41:18 <andythenorth> oops, bored again
18:41:33 <andythenorth> verified a non-bug even
18:43:42 <LordAro> frosch123: well, i've got as far as getting the configure script to find harfbuzz :p
18:44:00 <LordAro> (why do we reimplement most of autoconf, anyway)
18:44:24 <LordAro> frosch123: now my patches :p
18:44:49 <frosch123> i only now about the search thing
18:45:00 <frosch123> no idea what your plural refers to
18:45:01 <LordAro> (incidentally, harfbuzz has basically 0 documentation)
18:45:45 <LordAro> (0001 probably doesn't matter)
18:46:20 <Wolf01> <LordAro> (incidentally, harfbuzz has basically 0 documentation) <- yeah I noticed that even "integrating harfbuzz on a project" is not helpful
18:48:03 <LordAro> (and 0007 & 0008 are basically "i'm bored")
18:54:37 <frosch123> it doesn't have a diff
18:55:20 <_dp_> speed optimizations are generally useless without a profiler report
18:55:46 <LordAro> both RB & SZ seem rather sceptical about it
19:05:19 <_dp_> yeah, fps is nice to know sometimes
19:06:59 <frosch123> ottd is a cinematic game, it has fps locked to 30
19:07:27 <LordAro> doesn't seem like there's a good replacement for the ICU sort/collation stuff
19:07:28 <_dp_> it definitely doesn't do all 30 sometimes :p
19:07:30 <Wolf01> But ticks per second change a lot
19:07:53 <LordAro> "time taken to process frame" could be useful
19:08:59 <LordAro> unless i could do something with std::locale
19:12:37 <_dp_> Wolf01, do they? it depends on hardware but otherwise seem pretty stable
19:12:45 <LordAro> frosch123: ew, C functions :p
19:12:49 <frosch123> my experiences with std::locale are terrible
19:13:15 <LordAro> not seeing a way to do it case insensitively (as per strnatcmp) with either anyway
19:13:20 <frosch123> at least for gcc 4.5 and 4.8 they consistently perform worse than the equivalent c functions
19:13:29 <andythenorth> I thought this was unsolvable? o_O
19:13:45 <andythenorth> due to variation in semantics of subtype across vehicles
19:14:18 <andythenorth> no vocabulary = no way to compare semantics
19:14:24 <andythenorth> way too much complexity to solve
19:14:28 <LordAro> well, i guess passing locale to to_lower could solve that
19:16:06 <frosch123> LordAro: anyway, rendering and sorting are independent icu libraries
19:16:18 <LordAro> frosch123: tbf, i can't imagine the string sorting is a performance-critical bit of the program
19:16:20 <frosch123> i think the sorting is still supported
19:17:29 <LordAro> googling "icu support" isn't all that helpful
19:18:14 <frosch123> there is a release from april 2017
19:19:13 <frosch123> it learned about unicode emoji
19:19:31 <LordAro> aye, i've found the mailing list
19:19:40 <LordAro> what's your source on the layout stuff being unsupported though?
19:23:04 <frosch123> debian stable has icu 57
19:23:12 <frosch123> so i guess that's why i haven't noticed
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19:32:51 <frosch123> i think the current one is by juanjo
19:37:11 <andythenorth> the UI freaked me out with it’s ugliness
19:37:15 <andythenorth> so I didn’t try the patch
19:39:05 * andythenorth wonders if eventually one of the patchpacks will win
19:39:12 <andythenorth> and supplant OpenTTD
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19:51:12 <andythenorth> eh 723 tickets :P
19:51:26 <LordAro> frosch123: so them patches ;)
19:53:22 <andythenorth> seems I closed 92 or so :P
19:53:47 <andythenorth> “Not a current goal for OpenTTD” is my favourite rationale
19:53:51 <andythenorth> totally 100% true :P
19:58:08 <_dp_> does it even have a goal?
19:59:32 <andythenorth> somewhere in the wiki ;)
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20:06:40 <andythenorth> no pull requests there :D
20:06:51 <LordAro> your work is clearly done then
20:07:05 <Zuu> It says that you should send pull requests to bugs.openttd.org.
20:08:15 <andythenorth> I can delete them there :)
20:19:52 * andythenorth can reject more FS with them :)
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20:31:15 <LordAro> (gdb) p fonts[size].size()
20:31:15 <LordAro> (gdb) p fonts[size].begin() == fonts[size].end()
20:38:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27893 /trunk/src (60 files in 12 dirs) (2017-08-13 20:38:42 +0200 )
20:38:48 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use fallthrough attribute. (LordAro)
20:40:20 <frosch123> about the multibyte-constants: i am thinking about a macro "#define DWORD_STR(a,b,c,d) (a | b<<8 | c<<16 | d<<24)"
20:40:22 <frosch123> not sure about the name
20:40:33 <LordAro> yeah, maybe something like that
20:40:34 <frosch123> but the manual conversion to hex is meh
20:40:53 <LordAro> if we had C++14 we could do "NUMB"_custom_suffix
20:40:56 <frosch123> also i wonder whether railtypes work on big endian :p
20:41:58 <frosch123> oh, i made some indentation changes in some places and removed your TODO
20:42:07 <frosch123> depend.cpp was left as it
20:42:14 <frosch123> stdafx.h could not be easily added
20:42:55 <frosch123> depend.cpp seems to include a partial copy of stuff
20:43:12 <frosch123> i also don't know what depend may use, and what is still being generated
20:55:17 <V453000> I got a shitload of mails about closed FS things from andythenorth :D
20:57:10 <Zuu> That is why the link to the irc logs on the wiki is now updated. :-)
21:03:38 <andythenorth> why would anyone read email, ever :P
21:04:16 <andythenorth> I am tempted to close some of the 55 or so that george has open
21:04:23 <andythenorth> some are pretty legit
21:04:36 <andythenorth> don’t want to upset george though :P
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22:09:41 <andythenorth> I won my ebay game
22:09:46 <andythenorth> now I have to find a new ebay game
22:12:00 <frosch123> do you sell fs tasks on ebay?
22:15:17 <andythenorth> I seek out relatively rare HO trains at a fair price :P
22:15:29 <andythenorth> it can take months to find the right one
22:15:39 <andythenorth> searching is more fun than winning
22:21:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: where is the vertical line patch?
22:26:45 <andythenorth> I’ve got a patch file, but I think Wolf has a newer/better version :P
22:28:55 <andythenorth> there was some critique of it
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22:34:00 <V453000> I guess HO is pretty damn large eh
22:34:39 <V453000> just found a random engine for $600 :D
22:35:41 <V453000> 5000 eurs for a train?
22:35:55 <V453000> ok only 2k pounds for that one :D
22:36:18 <andythenorth> I have 2k pounds of trains
22:36:27 <andythenorth> but way more than 2 engines :P
22:37:17 <V453000> I suddenly feel less bad about buying a $5000 computer :)
22:37:42 <V453000> also bought daughter her first lego duplo train with rails
22:39:15 <V453000> ok so why is that HO stuff so expensive? :D
22:39:20 <V453000> or at least the thousand pound models
22:40:15 <andythenorth> usually it’s hand-built
22:40:19 <andythenorth> time = money etc :P
22:40:42 <andythenorth> DuploError: NoSpottyDog
22:41:20 <V453000> I get that it's hand built but being worth more than a car is kind of ... :D
22:41:30 <V453000> wife would be thrilled I'm sure
22:42:29 <V453000> ok enough internet for today apparently
22:42:43 <V453000> hm not sure if we have that one yet
22:42:54 <andythenorth> dog arrives in tractor
22:43:12 <V453000> christmas is soon I guess
22:56:21 <__ln___> greetings from the austro-hungarian empire
22:58:50 <andythenorth> was about to add mixed-cargo articulated stuff to IH
23:08:14 * andythenorth went to the hot baths once
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23:16:30 <Wolf01> __ln___: do you plan to travel near Venice someday?
23:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i almost went to venice once, but then didn't
23:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that was like 20 years ago, though
23:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> we were in istria, and there was a daytrip to venice available, by catamaran
23:23:35 <Wolf01> There is a lot to see in the mainland too, depends on what is your interest
23:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you just need to say that you're throwing an openttd party... :p
23:27:26 <Wolf01> Too bad I don't have enough space at home
23:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> ImportError: No module named 'ply'
23:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> dangit, i haven't used this in forever
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