IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-12
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00:00:19 <Wolf01> Yes, but I would like it more if it rotates along the plane, not perpendicular to the plane
00:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence does not make sense
00:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm not sure what kind of solution you're after
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00:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but do you need an abstract solution, or a solution which you can implement, or within the scope of the existing program?
00:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the abstract solution is that you need to move the rotation axis from the point of focus to the location of the camera
00:24:31 <Wolf01> A solution I can implement would be cool, understanding how to solve this problem without just copy-pasting a solution would be cooler
00:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no way i will read through that at this hour
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00:28:30 <Wolf01> Just look at the FPCamera
00:30:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, lots of vector/matrix operations
00:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to replace those
00:32:07 <Eddi|zuHause> again, not the right hour for that
00:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a clear head and write this stuff down properly.
00:33:34 <Wolf01> Yeah, and some more knowledge than some cinematic lessons taken 12 years ago
00:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the matrix operations are fairly easy. you just have to chain them the right way
00:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> pick the point/axis you want to rotate around, move that point into the origin, multiply with a rotation matrix, and move the point back to the original place
00:36:26 <Eddi|zuHause> a rotation matrix is like a unity matrix, except 4 values are replaced with sin(angle), cos(angle) or negatives thereof
00:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so translation, rotation, opposite translation
00:39:30 <Wolf01> I think that is already wat it does, but I mixed up things
00:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. you probably picked the wrong translation
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00:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably have the translation start at the point the camera is looking at, rather than the point where the camera is
00:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so the easy solution would be to add another translation from the point where the camera is to the point where it's looking at
00:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and the reverse at the other end
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00:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, both types of rotations might be useful in certain situations
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01:09:45 <Laedek> Where do I need to move Goods to?
01:10:23 <ST2> or Towns, since enough buildings to accept them :)
01:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause> usually city centers that have large buildings
01:10:39 <ST2> use the Land information tool to see each building info
01:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> typically at least 3
01:11:52 <ST2> poor Laedek, a storm of info - he's gonna go mad xD
01:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that is really unusual in this channel. or at this time.
01:12:37 <Laedek> They are moved with truck depots just like other materials?
01:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> truck station, train station, dock, whatever
01:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so many people answering
01:13:50 <ST2> just make sure to station cover the necessary buildings to accept Goods :)
01:14:27 <Wolf01> Eddi: they were all interested to your explanation :P
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09:57:30 <andythenorth> so many “deprecated call to get_nml_expression_for_unit_cargo_loaded_percent()”
09:57:33 * andythenorth should fix all this
10:02:08 <V453000> I think I should rework all trees
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10:13:43 <andythenorth> V453000: rework everything
10:13:52 <andythenorth> but just one thing at once :P
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11:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so... how do i quickly (and temporarily) create 1000 abandoned houses for building a fusion reactor?
11:36:41 <Alberth> add road, build 1000 houses, delete road ?
11:36:57 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the houses disappear then, not get empty
11:38:56 <Alberth> disconnect the road from other parts of the city?
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11:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think cutting the water worked
12:02:21 <Alberth> python json module makes wild assumptions on the size of the data file: "return loads(fp.read(), ... "
12:02:28 <Alberth> my data file is 900MB :p
12:02:54 <LordAro> just download more ram
12:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't think that library was designed with your use case in mind :p
12:05:28 <LordAro> some googling suggests ijson or json-streamer
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12:07:35 <Alberth> oh, it fits, just takes 5 minutes to load :p
12:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, it did work... just i didn't do enough, only 750 buildings :/
12:11:12 <Alberth> not sure how a fusion reactor is connected to abadoned houses
12:13:59 <Alberth> hmm, maybe they use RE for parsing, which can't handle matching from a stream
12:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> fusion reactor needs the observatory
12:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and the observatory needs 1000 abandoned houses
12:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they don't want light pollution :p
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12:35:03 <Wolf01> All hail buffer chests!
12:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> bwäääh... 975 abandoned buildings :/
12:39:30 <Alkel_U3> I suppose there isn't an option to auto-raze them all at once :-)
12:40:39 <Wolf01> You are making me willing to play cities xl
12:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you DON'T want to erase them
12:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, there is a mod that will auto-destroy abandoned buildings, but i don't think it's worth it. you don't usually get a lot of them
12:45:15 <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: apparently you sent wind yesterday, too. I just oveeheard news on the radio that trees were falling yesterday and lightning took out safety equipment on some railway connections
12:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds less apocalyptic than the news i read from northern italy the last few days
12:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> 4 of 5 weeks of sustaining 1000 abandoned buildings
12:52:46 <Wolf01> We also lost about 80% of crops in my area, but it might be an exaggeration and most of then will be able to recover for harvest
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12:59:04 <LordAro> probably a valid bug though
12:59:23 <Wolf01> Yes, but at least it doesn't break things :P
12:59:50 <Wolf01> Maybe some invalidate window could fix it
13:02:03 <Wolf01> I found the same problem by mixing a rail set and an industry set with same cargoes and different names
13:02:44 <Wolf01> Maybe that's the reason for the other bug reported from this guy with the missing string for cargo
13:03:41 <LordAro> i think that's because different tiles of the industry accept different cargoes
13:03:52 <LordAro> confusing, but intentional(?)
13:04:21 <Wolf01> Nono, they are the same cargoes but with different names (at least that's what happened to me
13:04:30 <Wolf01> Lunch, back in ha while
13:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> now, how long until people move back into this neighbourhood
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14:04:14 <Wolf01> I don't know any other problem on windows which might cause this, unless OTTD locks files while downloading and fails to unlock them at the right time
14:05:09 <LordAro> i'd imagine there *could* be a bug somewhere in the downloader if you download a large amount all at once, but not one that would cause a "File not writable" error
14:06:39 <Alberth> 32bit, and a too huge file :p
14:06:48 <Alberth> we should cap at 256MB :p
14:08:07 <Alberth> or maybe more than 10 selections or so
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14:13:37 <peter1138> Wolf01, but it's over the sprite
14:14:01 <peter1138> should only be 1 pixel high, not 2
14:14:19 <peter1138> and is also obiwan on the first pixel too
14:17:05 <Wolf01> It seem that the padding is drawn after content
14:18:07 <Alberth> do you read that from the code?
14:18:17 <Wolf01> Also the padding is wrong, since those are 2 merged lines, it should be 1,1,0,1 on first line and 0,1,1,1 on the second (top, right, bottom, left)
14:18:20 <Alberth> padding is just administrative distance afaik
14:18:42 <Alberth> if you're talking widget padding, that is
14:18:57 <Wolf01> I didn't read the code, but when I tried to use the padding for the train lenght it fucked up things
14:21:11 <Wolf01> Best I got was a transparent area as padding :P
14:22:39 <Alberth> see-through window :p
14:23:12 <Alberth> it does need a background indeed
14:23:43 <Alberth> eg the settings windows use padded widgets on top of the grey background widget (forgot its name)
14:24:00 <Alberth> otherwise indeed you should not leave holes between widgets
14:24:40 <Alberth> we could enhance the dirty rectangle code to render the holes too :p
14:24:42 <Wolf01> To me it seem it's acting as a margin instead of a padding
14:25:32 <Alberth> probably another name for it
14:25:46 <Wolf01> They are 2 different things
14:26:09 <Alberth> there is also padding between the content of a widget, and its edges, don't remember what name that has
14:26:20 <Wolf01> [<-padding->[content]<-padding->] vs [<-padding->content<-padding->]
14:26:42 <Wolf01> The first one is what OTTD wants
14:27:09 <Alberth> look at game options window
14:27:15 <Alberth> lots of gaps between widgets
14:28:17 <Wolf01> Yes, but it should be <-margin->[content]<-margin-> or [<-padding->content<-padding->], not a mix of the 2
14:29:09 <Wolf01> Then the box function fails to render the padding correctly
14:29:19 <Alberth> don't remember their names, but sure, that could be weirdly named
14:29:52 <Alberth> the thing that you call margin doesn't render anything for the margin
14:30:06 <Alberth> you can only do that on top of a background
14:30:52 <Alberth> also widget sizes that you get may be different than what you asked for, you have to use provided sizes
14:31:14 <Wolf01> Because if I do PANEL, PADDING(1,1,1,1), PANEL I get [<-padding->[content]<-padding->] with transparent padding, which acts exactly like [<-margin->[content]<-margin->] applied to PANEL, PANEL, MARGIN(1,1,1,1)
14:32:06 <Wolf01> Padding background should always be rendered, if you don't want it, use margin
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15:03:35 <Wolf01> How do you activate dev mode?
15:04:53 <Wolf01> Oh, ok, it's the newgrf developer tools, which is used for everything...
15:13:55 <Wolf01> Alberth: I need a kickstart on creating new windows
15:15:48 <Wolf01> I made a windowdesc, extended the window class, put a new entry in the help dropdown menu, it executes the new MyWindow() but nothing shows up
15:24:55 <Alberth> busy right now, grab a small window like bridges selection or so, and strip it?
15:25:08 <Wolf01> I've done that with the about window
15:25:08 <Alberth> otherwise, I can have a look later
15:26:03 <Alberth> you construct the window widgets in the constructor?
15:26:44 <Wolf01> Uhm, maybe I dtripped too much
15:27:03 <Alberth> not sure how good the "about" window is, some are a bit fuzzy/weird due to special behavior
15:27:56 <Alberth> I'd think it automagically calls OnPaint to draw the widgets from the base class, so that should work
15:29:44 <Wolf01> Ok, InitNested at least triggered an error
15:35:12 <Alberth> gaps in the widget numbering?
15:35:21 <Alberth> or overlapping numbers
15:36:33 <Wolf01> I added a new window class, a "new" window number, new strings, and I get an error about newgrf string
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15:41:28 <Wolf01> Take your time, I can wait :P
15:48:20 <Alberth> I'll clone the repo instead :p
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15:51:17 <stefino> hello guys..anyone who can program in nfo ?
15:54:27 <stefino> I need to program stationtile what has only backgroud. How can I do it? In tutorial on forum he has background and foreground. I'm talking about this line "7 * 62 00 04 02 01 00 08 "TUT0" 09 02 F4 03 00 00 00 00 00 10 05 03 2D 84 00 00 00 00 00 10 10 7A 2E 84 00 00 80 F3 03 00 00 00 00 00 05 10 03 2F 84 00 00 00 00 00 10 10 7A 30 84 00 00 80"
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15:57:19 <stefino> he has two tiles with background and foreground. and the second queastion. how nfo know what sprite is for background and what is for foreground? thx
16:05:41 <Alberth> Wolf01: do you want a parameterized titlebar?
16:06:13 <Wolf01> Isn't that the common one?
16:06:37 <Alberth> most titlebars have a fixed string :)
16:09:12 <Alberth> that's the widget number, STR_WHITE_STRING is the text, which says "{white}{string}"
16:09:26 <Alberth> ie you must provide a string to paint the title bar
16:09:42 <Alberth> no worries, I added your new string, let's see if that works
16:11:57 <Wolf01> So it was that one... weird error
16:13:50 <Alberth> making a new string STR_UI_TEST_TITLE : {WHITE}UI Test is simpler here
16:15:46 <Alberth> stack dump indicated it was computing size of a widget and something ...GetStringWithArgs...
16:20:31 <LordAro> Alberth: shouldn't it error hen not providing a string, rather than just doing nothing?
16:21:29 <LordAro> stefino: probably better to ask on the forums, more permanence there
16:24:39 <Wolf01> And the blue panel too?
16:24:57 <Wolf01> Blue is from another test :P
16:27:37 <Alberth> LordAro: euhm, it crashed, how's that nothing? :p
16:28:55 <Alberth> Wolf01: you have a panel with one widget on top of it, that top widget is expanded to fit the room that needs to be filled
16:29:05 <Alberth> ie your panel is behind the widget
16:30:07 <Alberth> code tries not to have gaps in the window (ie between the widgets) :)
16:31:25 <Wolf01> Ok, I think I understood how it works now, SetPadding adds a margin (html speaking)
16:31:28 <LordAro> Alberth: Wolf01 described nothing happening
16:31:44 <Wolf01> LordAro: yes, before calling InitNested()
16:32:04 <Alberth> Wolf01: I was that thinking too, while I owondered about the padding
16:32:14 <V453000> hm, my own system is starting to defeat me
16:32:17 <V453000> it's just too complicated
16:32:23 <V453000> track postproduction pipeline that is
16:32:36 <V453000> it's outworldly levels of insane
16:32:47 <V453000> there's so many things doing stuff to other things
16:32:54 <Alberth> reduce magic special cases, usually
16:33:08 <Wolf01> Ha, welcome to software development
16:33:22 <V453000> the thing is that everything is like a magic case
16:33:27 <V453000> rail tunnels especially
16:33:30 <V453000> terrain is a slope but not
16:33:50 <Alberth> you may be over-generalizing, trying to cover too much
16:34:02 <V453000> I think the whole approach is upside down
16:34:04 <Alberth> so adding special handling becomes kludgy
16:34:36 <Alberth> ah yes, started at the wrong end, that happens too :)
16:34:53 <V453000> the original idea was to have strips of "rail stuff" so that I can for example easily copy things between rail, monorail, maglev, and their snow/desert editions
16:35:03 <V453000> but doing stuff to individual things is absolute mayhem
16:35:23 <V453000> the fact that I can't even zoom beyond 100% isn't helping either
16:35:54 <V453000> (the spritesheet is 16k, after effects can only use 30 000 width of a composition, so I guess the zoom is disabled for that reason)
16:36:05 <V453000> if I had each frame handled separately I could do this
16:36:13 <V453000> another thing I need to rework? :D
16:36:21 <V453000> this is probably the absolute biggest thing of all BRIX
16:37:02 <Alberth> aligning your view with reality of the problem is always the biggest problem
16:37:11 <V453000> oh yean and it combines with ground tiles in 1094289 different ways
16:37:34 <V453000> well I did rework this at least once in the past when I was doing rawr :D
16:37:38 <Alberth> enough to have lots of fun :p
16:38:26 <Alberth> working hard to automate things so you can be lazy never really reached the lazy part for me either
16:38:30 <V453000> the thing is I am not sure if it is a good idea to have 12x50 individual sprites to handle
16:38:39 <V453000> but apparently it might be necessary
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16:38:57 <Alberth> can't you do something in-between?
16:39:15 <V453000> I have some ideas from past exprience that can help
16:39:17 <Alberth> ie everything in one system, and each individual are the extremes
16:39:48 <Alberth> maybe make a library that does small parts, which you can apply when needed or so
16:40:01 <V453000> that's pretty much what I have in mind
16:40:08 <V453000> sequences of edits which can be applied to anything
16:40:25 <V453000> but separated in time so I can still work in a large XY window
16:40:26 <Alberth> don't be afraid to recompute things, so you can make modular steps
16:40:58 <Alberth> lots of independent steps is easier to work with than passing data through each step
16:41:23 <Alberth> might take some additional cpu time, but who cares, there is plenty of that
16:41:48 <V453000> it's about staying reasonably sane
16:42:26 <Alberth> yep, one way is to raise abstraction level, make each step smarter so it knows what to do by itself
16:42:51 <Alberth> so you can think in separate steps
16:43:20 <Alberth> but maybe it doesn't apply
16:43:50 <andythenorth> V453000: are you making pipelines? o_O
16:44:14 <V453000> well at this point I am looking at a thoroughly rusty and full of shit sewer :D
16:44:20 <Alberth> more like pipes all over the place :p
16:45:32 * andythenorth had idea of clean pipelines for pixa
16:45:50 <andythenorth> one of the steps is huge
16:46:06 <andythenorth> it’s basically tiny-step > huge huge step > tiny step :P
16:46:13 <Wolf01> So Alberth, how should I add an html padding to show the red panel too?
16:48:23 <Alberth> Wolf01: why would you want a gap in the window?
16:48:36 <Wolf01> I don't want a gap in the window
16:48:45 <Alberth> oh, the caption thingie
16:48:50 <Wolf01> I want a space from the border of the container
16:49:17 <V453000> I managed to view the whole scheme of the thing
16:49:20 <V453000> got to screenshot that shit
16:49:32 <Wolf01> Padding puts a transparent margin
16:49:47 <Alberth> PIP is for sequences of widgets
16:50:04 <Alberth> pip is translated to padding :p
16:52:23 * andythenorth approves of FS ticket closing
16:53:46 <eekee> ugh cargodist! i like the idea, but i always end up with trams swarming like maggots and connections overloaded anyway
16:54:06 <andythenorth> just use A-B networks
16:54:18 <andythenorth> don’t make A-B-C-D-E-F networks, with all connected
16:54:42 <andythenorth> cdist is (A) a hard technical achievement (b) mostly just automated transfers
16:55:04 <andythenorth> if you connect all your pax networks, your game will start to suck
16:56:12 <eekee> i've done pretty well in one or two games, but one of them has flat land, lots of ocean, and roads on 3x3 grid so it's easy to put in metro & intercity
16:56:34 <eekee> that game is also pax-only
16:57:55 <Alberth> Wolf01: pip means pre-intermediate-post, and is used in a horizontal or vertical container (and a panel is a vertical container). It gives you spacing between widgets without having to add padding everywhere
16:58:15 <andythenorth> out of my knowledge
16:59:49 <eekee> imo cdist would benefit from reducing the production of well-served buildings
16:59:53 <Wolf01> Alberth: yeah, I noticed it, but how did you get that padding?
17:00:55 <andythenorth> eekee: that’s not quite the solution it seems
17:01:00 <andythenorth> it might clear the stations a bit
17:01:14 <andythenorth> but it’s counter-intuitive
17:01:21 <andythenorth> adding more service leads to fewer pax
17:01:25 <Alberth> Wolf01: I typed the numbers :p
17:01:56 <andythenorth> the solution is point-point networks, in my experience
17:02:29 <Alberth> Wolf01: you removed the background panel, why did you do that?
17:02:50 <eekee> andythenorth: if more service led to fewer pax, i wouldn't be complaining :)
17:03:01 <Wolf01> NWidget(WWT_PANEL, COLOUR_RED), SetPadding(10, 20, 30, 40),
17:03:01 <Wolf01> NWidget(WWT_CAPTION, COLOUR_GREEN),
17:03:34 <Alberth> Padding applies to the widget before it
17:04:01 <Wolf01> Ok, I must think about it as a margin
17:04:06 <Alberth> ie you made the background widget smaller, and the caption widget then expands on it
17:04:11 <Wolf01> NWidget(WWT_PANEL, COLOUR_RED),
17:04:12 <Wolf01> NWidget(WWT_CAPTION, COLOUR_GREEN), SetPadding(10, 20, 30, 40),
17:04:19 <Wolf01> This should work as I want
17:04:37 <Alberth> likely you don't want 10, 20, 30, 40, but yes :p
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17:06:37 <andythenorth> V453000: that is art
17:06:57 <V453000> no that's fucking mayhem
17:07:24 <andythenorth> do we need stuff just because we can?
17:07:46 <eekee> andythenorth: in the games i can't complain about, i use nuts with its 'local' trains of huge capacity and brief loading time. i could use a comparable tram
17:08:04 <andythenorth> which tram set do you use?
17:08:37 <Alberth> I know garyg has lots of full object grfs, but stations?
17:08:51 <andythenorth> I can’t reject it because I’m not a dev :P
17:09:00 <andythenorth> but 65535 is total nonsense
17:09:09 <andythenorth> are we hitting a 255 limit or something?
17:09:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: i made a survey, there are stations grfs which have like 250 already
17:09:57 <andythenorth> is the range 255, then 65535?
17:10:24 <frosch123> anyway, i would like to remove several 255 limits at a time
17:10:32 <frosch123> instead of one-by-one
17:10:41 <andythenorth> so that FS patch is valid?
17:10:54 <Alberth> the issue is valid :)
17:11:28 <frosch123> but the included patch is not necessarily
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17:12:50 <andythenorth> is it like html margin and padding?
17:13:08 <Wolf01> OTTD padding = html margin
17:13:27 <stefino> one quick question - what grfcodec means if it write Insufficient meta-data while reading sprite 3?
17:13:46 <stefino> what is insufficient?
17:15:12 <andythenorth> imho, part of the playing experience is occasionally finding your network totally log-jammed
17:17:53 <Alberth> :) I am getting to o good, don't get that fun things much any more
17:18:03 <andythenorth> can we commit it?
17:19:01 <Alberth> bit of a waste to spend a commit on it
17:20:04 <Alberth> usually these things get changed when the code near it gets changed, or when there are "enough" of them
17:22:28 <Wolf01> Could I rename all the widget functions because of reasons?
17:22:31 <andythenorth> local authorities are part of the game
17:22:50 <andythenorth> is it for testing newgrfs?
17:24:35 <Wolf01> I don't think SetPadding is used outside of widgets, and it mixes up with SetBits, SetDParam...
17:25:52 * andythenorth wishes there were no conditional orders :P
17:26:00 <andythenorth> 25% of FS is more conditional order bollocks
17:26:27 <andythenorth> what problem are these people solving? My trains do everything I want, and I make loads and loads of money :P
17:27:42 <Alberth> Wolf01: "because of reasons" doesn't sound very convincing. Also, it's just in the widget description, make a temporary hack #define SetMargin SetPadding if you must, and remove it just before submitting, but it's simpler to design the window once and ignore it, imho
17:28:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: won't work, stuff does much more with orders than people think
17:28:52 <Alberth> eg cargodest looks for stations that will be visited, etc
17:28:54 <andythenorth> can I just reject all conditional order feature requests?
17:29:49 <Alberth> anything with random and time-dependent behavior is pretty much no go, as orders should be deterministic
17:30:19 <Alberth> different parts look at orders, and it only works if all parts get the same idea of what will happen
17:32:28 <Alberth> sounds asif he want a distance between airports in the order window (?)
17:32:55 <_dp_> andythenorth, not everyone likes to deal with stupid authorities :p
17:33:07 <_dp_> isn't there already distance between stations?
17:33:15 <andythenorth> why is a distance between airports needed?
17:33:18 <eekee> agreed orders should be deterministic!
17:33:20 <andythenorth> just route planes
17:33:23 <_dp_> ah, mb it's from patchpack
17:34:13 <Alberth> perhaps when you change orders, although no idea how that's useful
17:36:15 <Wolf01> Alberth: I mean to rename all the functions to NWSetPadding, NWSetFill etc, it should be easier to find them also with autosuggest
17:39:25 <andythenorth> ctrl-click shares orders, even if vehicle already has orders
17:39:45 <eekee> i only use conditional orders to work around servicing wierdness. you can't set servicing interval for a whole order group or vehicle class at once (painful), and "go to nearest depot" does not usefully share the load between two depots
17:40:01 <eekee> in both cases i'd rather there were another way
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17:46:04 <Alberth> andy, he wants some warning or so before overwriting orders, I use that feature a lot, having to click OK each time doesn't seem useful
17:46:30 <Alberth> with the exception that if you ctrl-click a station tile which happens to have a train
17:46:47 <Alberth> then it shares the train orders instead of visiting that station
17:47:06 <Alberth> I could see use of a disambiguating question there
17:48:22 <andythenorth> modal messages rarely solve much :P
17:48:43 <Alberth> it gets very complicated very quickly
17:48:48 <andythenorth> I requested closure ;)
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17:52:33 <Alberth> @calc (5*60+43)*100/75/60
17:52:33 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 7.62222222222
17:55:33 <eekee> hahaha! pages of trams with capacity over 200 passengers, while i've been using egrvts which has *none*!
17:57:19 <eekee> re. overwriting orders: i hate confirmation popups, i find them kinda painful, and there's never really any need to ctrl-click unless you want to share orders
18:02:21 <Alberth> add full-load goto order also uses ctrl-click
18:03:08 <andythenorth> it’s pretty rare to accidentally click a vehicle when aiming for a station
18:03:12 <andythenorth> but I have done it more than once
18:03:20 <andythenorth> is it worth fixing?
18:09:47 <Alberth> no idea how, without making it very complicated
18:11:58 <Alberth> if you add better multi-cargo support, "full load" becomes useless all by itself
18:12:25 <Alberth> except for trains carrying 1 cargo only
18:13:03 <andythenorth> I am not convinced it adds anything
18:13:25 <Alberth> consist-based orders would make sharing mostly obsolete
18:13:47 <Alberth> I am also not convinced it's useful
18:13:58 * andythenorth offers a false dichotomy
18:15:03 <Alberth> at least you add complicated words :p
18:15:52 <andythenorth> I was trying to compare benefits of templated consists (big advance)
18:15:57 <eekee> what i meant is you don't *need* to ctrl-click to set orders ever, unless you want to share. the alternative is just 2 clicks
18:16:05 <andythenorth> against all these things that add complexity to existing stuff
18:16:29 <andythenorth> most of these FS multiply complexity to meet use case of limited handful of players
18:16:42 <andythenorth> whereas templated consists might benefit everyone
18:17:19 <Wolf01> Consist based could be faked by using the trains list as a depot and using the groups to automatically share the orders and clone the vehicles
18:18:27 <eekee> i've not found groups useful yet, mostly because i didn't want to add trains individually when i already have so many in order groups :)
18:19:02 <Alberth> I consider them useless too
18:19:05 <frosch123> you can mass-add vehicles which share orders
18:19:11 <andythenorth> I use groups all the time
18:19:14 <andythenorth> for auto-replace
18:19:14 <frosch123> otherwise their only purpose is autoreplace
18:19:17 <andythenorth> they are very limited
18:19:29 <andythenorth> but they perform that function very well
18:19:38 <Alberth> I just autoreplace the engine globally
18:19:53 <frosch123> you do not need every engine in a group
18:20:11 <frosch123> instead you can setup add-hoc groups when you want to autoreplace a subset
18:20:16 <andythenorth> that’s what I do
18:20:31 <Alberth> why would you want to replace a subset only?
18:20:38 <Wolf01> I use groups to check the average profit of the vehicles which are in the group
18:20:53 <Alberth> if only groupd would provide that info :p
18:21:02 <frosch123> Alberth: when the game starts with 2 viable engines, and later you have 3 options
18:21:10 <Alberth> although someone may have add that feature
18:21:30 <frosch123> or if the cargo turned out heavier than guessed first
18:21:37 <frosch123> so one route needs a different engines
18:22:08 <andythenorth> is 16 a hard limit?
18:22:19 * andythenorth has ‘close ticket’ prepped and ready
18:24:29 <Alberth> andy, bottom comment of planet person says it all, I think
18:25:43 <Alberth> Wolf01: group window?
18:26:03 <Alberth> ok, so some stuff got added :)
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18:47:37 * andythenorth closed that ticket
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18:54:02 <LordAro> you could probably claim it's because basically all the graphics rendering is done by the cpu, rather than the gpu
18:54:33 <LordAro> offloading more of that would probably improve things, but it would be hard
18:58:12 <Wolf01> I had to rewrite my game to use directx in order to gain better performances, with CPU only I got 20fps
19:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: does your camera movement work now?
19:07:15 <Wolf01> Nah, I didn't touch it since yesterday
19:07:22 <Wolf01> Maybe later I'll try again
19:11:36 <eekee> added higher-capacity trams with fast loading, and now my cargodist routes are fine :)
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19:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but i agree with both of the ideas (separately)
19:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> autosave-while-paused
19:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and ingame clock (if playing fullscreen)
19:19:40 <Eddi|zuHause> are both extremely useful things
19:19:45 <andythenorth> I have closed in-game clock
19:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> every game should have an ingame clock
19:21:03 <eekee> second life's ingame clock didn't do me any good ^.^
19:23:56 <andythenorth> every browser should have an email client :P
19:24:08 <LordAro> every emacs should have a text editor
19:31:56 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> every game should have an ingame clock <- I solved this with a Logitech G510
19:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: coffeemacs?
19:34:03 <Wolf01> I even thought to add a patch to support it's display on OTTD to show some info, like a subsidy browser, last warnings
19:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i play openttd in windowed mode, so i have the taskbar with clock
19:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but other games...
19:46:30 <Alberth> he has somewhat of a point, not sure it should be fixed though
19:47:05 <Alberth> you can add an option 'send to depot for selling' or so
19:47:29 <Alberth> or only change engine when leaving the depot perhaps
19:48:24 <andythenorth> consist templates :P
19:48:44 <andythenorth> we could (1) add yet another ‘send all in order group’ command (to sell them)
19:48:59 <glx> looks like andythenorth is trying to clean FS :)
19:49:03 <andythenorth> (2) have template consists where all in current group are assigned an empty template
19:49:15 <andythenorth> glx: I’m seeing how far I can go before someone yells at me :)
19:49:26 <andythenorth> I got rid of ~40 tickets last week
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20:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> might be too narrow of a use case
20:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe a human wants to play the game rondje-style
20:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you set up a train with "go to A" "go to B" "sell at depot", and then you just clone that train over and over
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20:11:30 <Alberth> all this useless double track building :p
20:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the chinese did that for a while with shipping containers
20:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> was way cheaper to build new containers in china than ship them back from europe
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20:19:39 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did they also build new ships?
20:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't put it past them :p
20:26:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's called message historyx
20:27:27 <frosch123> if anyone would care, someone would have added filters to the message history window :)
20:27:37 <andythenorth> probably the list should have also popup message notifying that the industry has been addded to the closed list
20:27:41 <andythenorth> in case the player missed it
20:27:50 <andythenorth> Because “quite often, the industry is closed without noticing by the player."
20:27:56 <andythenorth> so that probably needs a message
20:28:02 <andythenorth> in case you missed the message
20:28:24 <andythenorth> and a log saying there was a message about the message
20:28:37 <andythenorth> so you can check if you missed any messages about messages about messages about closure
20:28:42 <andythenorth> how do some of these people human?
20:28:44 <frosch123> you can likely write a gamescript which reminds you about missed messages
20:29:05 <andythenorth> in my day job I get actual feature requests about actual shit things we’ve sold to people :P
20:29:12 <andythenorth> not some of this crap :D
20:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Because “quite often, the industry is closed without noticing by the player." <-- that's usually because of ticker messages, which stupidly prevent real messages from popping up
20:52:10 <andythenorth> is that a bug? o_O
20:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> no, a misfeature of the original game
21:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anyway, the problem is that ticker messages take a while to scroll through, so when you have lots of them, some messages time out, which could have been real messages
21:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (btw, did anyone ever look up whether the ticker sound is a real message, and what it says?)
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21:32:02 <peter1138> tons of pm request spam ;(
21:33:56 <andythenorth> blame andythenorth
21:52:12 <andythenorth> I could just close more, avoiding some of the bureaucracy
22:03:34 <andythenorth> how would random orders work in multiplayer?
22:03:59 <andythenorth> would it be handled in game state somehow? o_O
22:11:12 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so currently there is _no_ Lego Technic I want to buy :)
22:11:15 <andythenorth> first time in years
22:12:02 <Wolf01> I want to buy the current ones anyway... no money
22:12:19 <andythenorth> Fire Truck...nah
22:12:35 <andythenorth> purple thing…maybe, but it’s really big and takers up a lot of space
22:12:52 <andythenorth> blue Tow truck - no way, seriously over-priced
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22:30:38 <V453000> I haven't been there but yes
22:43:12 <V453000> it's somewhere in Prague :)
22:53:13 <Wolf01> Thank you, I already knew that, that's why I asked you and not andy :D
23:03:01 <V453000> Thank you for your question.
23:07:12 <Wolf01> Could it be in Wenceslas platz?
23:07:36 <Wolf01> A couple of friends want to go there :P
23:10:43 <V453000> alone the land is boring
23:10:50 <V453000> but with things it's very nice I believe
23:11:36 <frosch123> Wolf01: that's at the main tourist street
23:11:44 <frosch123> no surprise V hasn't been there :)
23:11:49 <frosch123> lots of loud gemans there
23:11:53 <V453000> I go there quite often actually
23:13:05 <frosch123> 2001 i was in a marmor pizza place in that area
23:13:14 <frosch123> everyone in my class thought it was run by the mafia
23:13:28 <Wolf01> I might go there too if my friends decide they really want to
23:15:14 <Wolf01> V: that's very good, I like the signals too
23:16:09 <V453000> and I discovered one big advantage of gray terrain
23:16:14 <V453000> it doesn't collide with 8bpp colours at all
23:16:30 <Wolf01> Also the triangular ones are easy to identify
23:16:45 <frosch123> there are 16 8bpp grey scale colors
23:17:01 <frosch123> is it noticeable if the terrain is converted to 8bpp? :p
23:17:34 <V453000> I'll try again when I get my conversion script to work properly :P
23:17:56 <frosch123> i remember icosahedron and stuff
23:18:24 <V453000> they are inconsistent but they aren't new
23:18:47 <V453000> icosahedron or whatever is still there at bottom right
23:20:25 <frosch123> i never notices that ottd puts so many trees of same type next to each other
23:20:54 <frosch123> it's way more visible with the distinct colored trees
23:21:24 <V453000> well the original trees are much larger so they aren't visible as a whole, lets you see individuals less and they are more likely to blend together as a kind of texture mass
23:21:39 <V453000> the colours are also quite various in the original graphics
23:21:56 <V453000> here it's mainly the overall style of the trees being so wildly different
23:22:04 <V453000> I think everything will be more geometric in the next iteration
23:22:12 <V453000> all of the 'natural' ones will go to hell
23:23:13 <frosch123> he, all those geometric shapes appear in nature :p
23:24:19 <Wolf01> <frosch123> i never notices that ottd puts so many trees of same type next to each other <- I'm the only one which thinks it's not enough? :D
23:30:07 <frosch123> if you want to make it more lively, add a double-helix tree
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23:34:44 <Wolf01> Also cauliflower fractals :P
23:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks weird this asymmetric
23:51:08 <frosch123> hmm, shops are closed tomorrow
23:51:37 <frosch123> buying new dishes/stuff is no option, i guess i will have to clean them
23:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that tends to happen on sundays
23:56:22 <Wolf01> So shops close on sunday in Germany?
23:56:51 <frosch123> you can sell travel supplies in train stations
23:57:00 <frosch123> and washing machines
23:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> train stations or fuel stations can stay open, and cities are allowed to open a few sundays each year (usually in december)
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