IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-08-11
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00:09:25 <eekee> pff XD i thought a pick-up station would be ok with not quite enough platforms / queuing area. i was wrong, and the resultant tailback reached the *entire* length of my main line
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01:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that happened to me quite a lot in cities skylines
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08:40:58 <V453000> thank you for the very nice reply Albert :) there are few like that
08:41:21 <V453000> ever since I work with Albert at work my muscle memory has a hard time to write your nickname without tab
08:45:38 <Alberth> we both know who you intend to address, so it's fine :)
08:46:58 <Alberth> until that Albert visits here too, that is :p
08:47:32 <V453000> that's not very likely, yes :P
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09:38:11 <V453000> I have some faith in them, they've been working on it for quite a while too, we are in close contact on skype, they have most of their code from my grfs :D
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09:43:31 <Jay[m]> Just wanted to drop by and say thanks for building openttd, its a fantastic game :D
09:44:14 <Alberth> your welcome Jay, have fun :)
09:44:40 <Jay[m]> Yup, I always am (while playing) :)
09:44:44 <__ln__> Jay[m]: thank chris sawyer
09:45:27 <Jay[m]> ln: does he frequent this channel? Just curious :o
09:45:43 <Alberth> Ha V, yes, that looks good, a bit too realistic to my taste, but fair enough. Nice that you work with them.
09:45:55 <__ln__> dunno if he even approves of OpenTTD
09:46:06 <Alberth> he may lurk :p but indeed, highly unlikely
09:46:14 <Alberth> nah, lomo is much better
09:51:37 <V453000> it's recurring the same bullshit that happens with opengfx
09:51:48 <V453000> people grab zbase as their visual base and derive the style from that
09:52:19 <V453000> I know this guy from openttdcoop :)
09:53:14 <V453000> but I guess there is a good reason for this all, the style is simple to do which lets more people make things
09:53:50 <Alberth> yeah, just give a thing the right shape, and you're done
09:53:58 <Alberth> never mind the overall impression :p
09:54:20 <Alberth> it's a learning path :)
09:54:51 <V453000> I have to say I kind of don't care anymore :) just minding my own
09:55:40 <Alberth> you've become wise, and try to improve yourself instead of others ;)
09:57:35 <Alberth> I did find I have lost some things in the process though. I used to be able to just start coding on a problem. Now I can't do that any more, as soon as I start I see all kinds of problems that must be addressed to handle future needs
09:58:04 <V453000> sounds stupidly familiar :P
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09:58:36 <Alberth> you raise your standards, and it becomes impossible to work below them :p
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12:06:31 <Wolf01> Such headache, much pain
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12:21:03 <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: thanks for sending the rain clouds, it's no longer scorching hot around here :-)
12:21:29 <Wolf01> I hope I didn't send the wind too
12:21:54 <Wolf01> 150km/h bursts yesterday
12:22:00 <Alkel_U3> no, the branches remain affixed to their respective trees
12:24:40 <Alkel_U3> that seems a bit inconvenient
12:27:16 <Alkel_U3> luckily Czech Republic is well surounded by mountain ranges so we're mostly spared of such extremities
12:28:46 <Alkel_U3> I would definitely not want to be on a cable lift when that hit :P
12:29:39 <Alkel_U3> heh, I like google maps' message with javascript disabled :D
12:38:51 <Wolf01> Yup, I read that story
12:41:31 <Wolf01> BTW, they are planning to go full Cussler's Sahara now, building a solar panel in the middle of the desert with a collector tower, maybe they will start to burn toxic wastes too
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12:53:10 <V453000> ass is grass, Friday.
12:53:48 <Wolf01> For me every day is like Monday
12:57:32 <Alberth> Wolf doesn't sleep, he resets himself
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13:01:25 <V453000> repetitive 24hr memory loss
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13:03:45 <Wolf01> It's more that I live a full week every day... every day perceived as a full boring week
13:07:07 <V453000> maybe time to change job? :D
13:07:36 <Wolf01> That's what I really want
13:11:25 <V453000> I keep reading everywhere that companies have not enuf people
13:11:36 <V453000> doesn't mean it's easy but idk :)
13:11:47 <Wolf01> The line here is "it's plenty of jobs, but nobody wants you because they are too picky"
13:12:16 <Alberth> it probably means leave italy
13:12:30 <Alberth> still in europe, luckily :)
13:12:44 <Wolf01> Yes, that's I would like to do, but I don't want to do it alone
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13:14:07 <Alberth> non-trivial that, I am not sure I'd be prepared to do it, tbh
13:14:22 <Alberth> on the other hand, if the need arises, you start thinking otherwise, I guess
13:14:39 <V453000> circumstances are always unique for everybody :)
13:14:50 <V453000> I don't know what I would do if factorio was in say USA
13:14:51 <Alberth> bleh, 7 minutes initializing, then crash in 5 seconds in new code :p
13:14:58 <V453000> I probably wouldn't be able to move either
13:15:10 <V453000> even if it was in germany I would already have a problem
13:15:26 <Alberth> you'd likely never met factorio as artist
13:15:53 <Alberth> but some other graphics thing :)
13:16:12 <V453000> well it still wouldn't be impossible, but well
13:19:03 <Alberth> knowing about the job is already problematic :)
13:20:11 <V453000> well it's still openttd which brought me to it ;P
13:20:12 <Wolf01> The actual problem in Italy is that the govern created some years ago a type of contract to give bonuses to companies which hire people from 18 to 30 years, and after 3-5 years (depending on the bonus they want) they can leave them at home... and the bonus can be used once for each person on a particuar job, I mean that if I worked 5 years in IT, I can't be hired again in IT from another
13:20:12 <Wolf01> company with the bonus
13:21:13 <Alberth> solving a problem by creating a new one :(
13:21:14 <Wolf01> And this literally killed every possible job opportunity for a lot of people
13:22:16 <Wolf01> All the companies I proposed to told me I was the right figure they were searching, but they wouldn't hire me because uf this
13:22:58 <Wolf01> At least the ones which replied to my proposal
13:24:45 <V453000> so they just outright can't hire you? Or lose some bonus if they would?
13:24:57 <V453000> that sounds pretty retarded
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13:28:19 <Alberth> it's not, it's perfectly normal comapny behavior
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13:28:54 <V453000> I'm rather asking about the system
13:29:42 <V453000> there are companies with bonuses and such company can hire you only once when you fall in 18-30y range? Or they can hire you multiple times but the bonus doesn't apply to you ?
13:30:25 <Alberth> bonus applies only one time, as far as I understood it
13:30:41 <Alberth> unless you change profession
13:31:08 <Alberth> every 3-5 years, until you're 30 :p
13:32:14 <Alberth> government is just stupidly thinking they can solve the youth emigration problem that way, imho
13:33:28 <Alberth> easy, you're 18-ish, no work in your country, you live in europe, no ties, what do you do?
13:33:45 <Alberth> ie emigrate to germany, france, the netherlands, denmark, etc
13:34:17 <V453000> yeah I understand that part
13:34:26 <Alberth> so italy has no youth left basically :p
13:34:54 <Wolf01> <V453000> there are companies with bonuses and such company can hire you only once when you fall in 18-30y range? Or they can hire you multiple times but the bonus doesn't apply to you ? <- the latter
13:35:38 <Wolf01> And they won't hire you because they must pay more taxes
13:36:10 <V453000> so they search for 31 year old specialists
13:36:16 <V453000> because at that point taxes are normal again?
13:37:03 <Wolf01> What do you chose from "18yr old, no knowledge, 40% less taxes, 80% wage" and "32yr old, good experience, full wage, full taxes"
13:37:59 <V453000> well I know what I would choose but yeah, most companies would do different
13:38:26 <V453000> mainly because the word quality is like prohibited nowadays
13:39:09 <Wolf01> Yes, there are some, but only when the first option is so low that it's not an option
13:39:39 <Wolf01> The others only consider the first option and then start crying out loud that they find nobody
13:40:07 <Alberth> you're talking about a country where the pipes of the water-supply are so leaky that >50% never arives at the destination
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13:49:31 <V453000> if everyone had the same system then why would people leave countries
13:49:40 <V453000> the job availability should be relatively equal
13:49:48 <V453000> I guess richer countries will always pay more though
13:49:50 <Wolf01> Mainly because of other people :D
13:51:08 <Wolf01> I would like to leave my town for better job opportunities and to be closest to main events/infrastructures/services... but here is so a nice place
13:51:09 <__ln__> Wolf01: have you considered moving abroad?
13:51:20 <Alberth> yep, we get a lot of people from Poland doing jobs over here, because we pay much better
13:51:53 <Wolf01> __ln__: yes I did, but as I said, not alone
13:53:02 <Alberth> it's good for those people, but in the end, it's quite bad for a country if a large part of the workforce moves out
13:53:35 <Wolf01> It's bad for a country even when the biggest companies move out too
13:54:05 <Alberth> they do some shopping too :)
13:54:19 <Alberth> it's a result of one united europe, I guess
13:54:45 <Alberth> where things go a bit too fast to adapt
13:55:01 <Wolf01> Yes, but selling the company to X (where X is in another part of Europe) and they then decide to relocate...
13:55:49 <Wolf01> That's what happened with the biggest companies of my region alone, all of them
13:56:15 <Alberth> sure, why not, one time cost of moving, but if it's economically profitable...
13:56:39 <Alberth> wrt country taxes, work force, connectivity, etc
13:57:25 <Alberth> ie companies are moving out of Britain now, everybody in Europe hopes they come to their country
13:58:01 <Wolf01> Some of the emigrated companies were recreated by the old workers which purchased the non-profitable patents from the company and they are now doing almost well, they aren't excellency but they can stand up
13:58:44 <Wolf01> But they weren't able to re-hire all the workers
13:58:51 <Alberth> but it's not how commericalism works :p
13:59:03 <Wolf01> And they produce almost obsolete products at low price
14:00:13 <Alberth> really, companies don't give a fuck about local workforce, in general, especially big international companies
14:00:36 <Alberth> they only care about money and stock-holders
14:01:42 <Wolf01> And that's bad, look at FIAT, they got a lot of government help with our money, and then now are one of the biggest companied in the world, relocating the production outside of Italy and we won't see any money back
14:02:36 <Alberth> can someone please add static typing to Python? thank you
14:03:07 <Wolf01> And the government can't understand this, they continue to do always the same mistake: FIAT, Alitalia, banks in general
14:03:40 <Alberth> youth workers bonusses :)
14:05:18 <Wolf01> I really hope this will change soon, we can't survive another decade like this
14:05:53 <Alberth> I hope so too, but this are slow changes :(
14:07:57 <Wolf01> It won't change at all when this is all interest of people involved in our govern
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14:24:58 <Alberth> hmm, it helps if you set a flag that it needs to save results :p
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14:31:21 <Alkel_U3> Alberth: there are type hints at least...?
14:32:33 <Alkel_U3> not that I know how much helpful that is :P
14:35:31 <Wolf01> I should try python with VS2017
14:35:54 <Wolf01> Or with vs141, just to piss off Eddi
14:36:26 <Alberth> Python is a bit too dynamic to reliably derive type information from it, without executing it
14:37:02 <Alberth> but my startup time is 6-7 minutes, and it's silly if it then crashes due to some typo :(
14:38:55 <Alberth> yay, it's running and saving data :)
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15:03:09 <Wolf01> Does anybody knows a free software/webapp to do collaborative software design (mockups, diagrams, drawing, text)?
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15:19:44 <Wolf01> Ok, I think I'll continue to use onenote
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16:20:42 <supermop_> Wolf01: chrysler also got a lot of US government money, so there was some pressure to move at least some management jobs for Fiat-Chrysler to the US i recall
16:23:06 <Wolf01> I don't give a fuck about management jobs, they can do it even from home, the problem is that there they are closing some factories
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16:44:17 <supermop_> closing car factories is nothing new
16:44:56 <supermop_> im kind of surprised there would even be that many left in italy
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17:23:02 <supermop_> actually i wonder if they will make a fiat minivan at the windsor ontario plant
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18:06:23 <V453000> kind of want to start a new factorio base
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19:04:23 <peter1138> just start in a new area of the map
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20:03:09 <Shoshonite> I am wondering if anyone has a copy of the NML compiler for notroadtypes already compiled they would be willing to share with me.
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20:08:57 <frosch123> it's linked in the forums
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20:19:09 <Shoshonite> cool, I was thinking that was just the sauce, I suppose it can be run as just the py code?
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20:39:11 <frosch123> if you have python installed, you can just run it like that
20:39:16 <frosch123> the binary is only for windows users
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20:53:05 <greeter> quick question. how does one figure out who the admin of a server is?
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20:58:37 <johannes_2> Hello, I keep forgetting it, but are there any cases where pre-signals are better than path-signals?
20:58:37 <Wolf01> Something is killing my bandwidth again
20:59:11 <johannes_2> E.g. if you have a station with n tracks, and 2-way rails from both sides, path signals always seem to do the job better or equally good...
20:59:24 <Wolf01> Ping 1616ms; 0.5Mbps/20Kbps
21:00:07 <frosch123> johannes_2: you use pre-signals for priority lines and stuff
21:00:07 <Shoshonite> also I am a windows user, Thx Frosch123. got it now
21:03:27 <johannes_2> frosch123: ok, I just found something about priority merging where they are used
21:05:31 <johannes_2> It looks like pre-signals are usually only being used to make checks in opposite directions
21:05:45 <frosch123> thing is: path signals always act the same, pre-signals allow asymetric stuff
21:10:17 <andythenorth> restaurant coach, or post office coach?
21:10:17 <andythenorth> one gives bonus to pax, one gives bonus to mail
21:10:47 <Wolf01> MAke them distinct and let the user decide
21:11:56 <Wolf01> __ln___: in your infinite knowledge, does it happen that you know Euler angles?
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21:13:39 <frosch123> isn't a post office coach the same as a mail van?
21:13:44 <frosch123> or are there no mail vans?
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21:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> johannes_2: path signals are better in every "normal" use of signals
21:16:46 <andythenorth> IRL restaurant cars tended to long not short :P
21:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "normal" as in "trains actually go through them"
21:17:02 <andythenorth> maybe I should do articulated :P
21:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: restaurant cars should be the same length as passenger cars
21:18:15 <andythenorth> for realisms yes
21:18:23 <andythenorth> not for making integer lengths :P
21:19:15 <andythenorth> 22/8 is not helping much either :P
21:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds a tiny bit on the long side :p
21:20:08 <andythenorth> 10/8 locomotive + 6/8-6/8 articulated coaches :P
21:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause> 12 is a good size for long wagons
21:20:55 <andythenorth> 10/8 + 22/8 works
21:22:35 <johannes_2> Eddi|zuHause: that's a good explanation. probably presignals should only be used when you use the signals to "calculate" something.
21:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you want the dining car not a too large fraction of total train length
21:23:02 <andythenorth> I think 6/8 and realism can hang :)
21:23:15 <andythenorth> and coaches/mail coaches are all 8/8
21:28:12 <Wolf01> So you finally dropped integer lenghts?
21:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you were listening properly :p
21:29:48 <andythenorth> just waiting for the depot patch :P
21:30:33 <andythenorth> nah, we try and make it look interesting enough that someone else does it
21:30:42 <andythenorth> that always works, right?
21:31:00 <andythenorth> for 150 years of play, is 15 types of coach / mail coach too many?
21:31:07 <andythenorth> they all have purpose :P
21:31:14 <andythenorth> current IH has 7 types
21:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> request a new subforum for your project, and make 15 threads for each part
21:31:31 <andythenorth> we could have a thread for each colour option on the gridlines
21:31:49 <Wolf01> Owen please, add "Andy's stuff" subforum :P
21:32:18 <andythenorth> nah, “Wolf’s stuff"
21:32:27 <andythenorth> also one for “things peter1138 has a patch for"
21:32:44 <andythenorth> and “ideas eddi has explained comprehensively, but not quite coded”
21:33:16 <Wolf01> Why isn't there a subforum for just the devs?
21:34:01 <Wolf01> Maybe because devs use their own ottd dev profile
21:34:09 <andythenorth> call it ‘OpenTTD Development” ?
22:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm what? "concert" expansion for cities skylines?
22:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, available 17.8.
22:02:36 <Wolf01> Sure they know how to monetize
22:06:57 <peter1138> what have i got patch for?
22:07:05 <andythenorth> whatever is mentioned
22:08:04 <andythenorth> depot displays lines for train lengths?
22:09:22 <Wolf01> Reply with "don't remove/change grfs from a savegame"
22:10:43 <andythenorth> or broken translations?
22:11:08 <Wolf01> Eh, ask him if he found that nasty topic in suggestions
22:12:13 <Wolf01> Maybe he just downloaded a broken grf for his language
22:12:35 <Wolf01> But we can't know it with just that little information
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22:33:39 <andythenorth> 15 types of pax coach is fricking loads
22:33:46 * andythenorth thinks this might be a bad idea
22:34:52 <Wolf01> Could you use liveries for different type of the same rolling stock please?
22:35:45 <Wolf01> It's already a pain to look for a specific wagon with 2452 cargos, don't fill the list with 15 more pax coaches :P
22:40:16 <andythenorth> if you have ‘vehicles expire’ it would be fewer
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23:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow this bus lane is not working at all
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23:41:50 <__ln___> Wolf01: sorry, i don't know such angles. i'll pass the question to mr. zuHause.
23:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i know of an euler line, but not of an euler angle
23:46:21 <Wolf01> If I understood them well
23:46:43 <Wolf01> And people always say to leave out yaw
23:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, good pilots don't need yaw, you steer with roll
23:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm an expert. i spent lots of time flying planes in KSP.
23:49:14 *** supermop has joined #openttd
23:49:40 <Shoshonite> In KSP real pilots fly with thrust, leave out Pitch and Roll. Problem solved :)
23:49:58 <Wolf01> The problem is that I have a 3d camera which can look at custom pitch, should not roll (at least not by itself), but I need to rotate it
23:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what you mean by that
23:52:22 <Wolf01> The same camera you are using in C:S
23:52:37 <Wolf01> Now I have a spaceship like camera
23:52:48 <Wolf01> (which doesn't even work well)
23:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i steer my camera in C:S with qe/wasd/rf
23:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> which one of these is pitch/yaw/roll?
23:54:37 <Wolf01> You can't move the camera with the mouse?
23:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> also, in games like this i occasionally need to flip q and e
23:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i can, but other than mouse at screen border, i don't usually do that
23:55:55 <Wolf01> No right mouse button to rotate the view?
23:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> some games have that
23:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes it's right+left click
23:57:13 <Wolf01> Ok, I have problems with the camera rotation
23:57:28 <Wolf01> I can look up and down, but not left and right :)
23:58:17 <Wolf01> At least not the common neft and right, when I move the mouse sideways the view rotates like a donut around the point I'm looking at
23:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> usually right click moves the camera parallel (like wasd), right+left rotates (qe/rf)... i don't know what of that C:S does
23:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, most games do that
23:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> rotate around the focus point, not the camera
continue to next day ⏵
