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11:03:23  <Wolf01> o/

11:03:36  <Arveen2> \o

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11:12:20  <Wolf01> o/

11:12:49  <andythenorth_> Hi wolf

11:13:44  * andythenorth_ thinking about groundtypes

11:14:03  <andythenorth_> might be annoying to use

11:14:42  <andythenorth_> for example overbuilding tram on multiple ground types

11:14:43  <peter1138> underground types

11:14:48  <peter1138> 3d map array

11:14:53  <Wolf01> I have been thinking for 2 days how to refactor the vehicle movement code

11:14:56  <andythenorth_> lawks

11:15:00  <peter1138> larks

11:15:05  <peter1138> rewrite

11:15:07  <andythenorth_> 3D vehicle movement

11:15:18  <Wolf01> And put it into external resources

11:15:33  <andythenorth_> peter1138 something needs shaking up eh?

11:15:44  <andythenorth_> NewBugs

11:21:40  <andythenorth_> Wolf01 what's the unsolvable thing for NRT? Trolleybus on town roads?

11:22:03  <Wolf01> No, that's easily solvable

11:22:15  <andythenorth_> How?

11:22:39  <Wolf01> Just change it so you can convert city owned roads

11:23:52  <Wolf01> The worst thing is the ability to tell what has the catenary, if road or tramway

11:23:57  <andythenorth_> to arbitrary roadtypes?

11:24:10  <andythenorth_> Or using some compatibility graph?

11:24:22  <Wolf01> It would be cool to have some compatibility graph

11:24:32  <andythenorth_> having two types of catenary is dumb

11:24:43  <andythenorth_> There should just be one type

11:24:48  <andythenorth_> It's a game

11:25:09  <andythenorth_> But then we can't use label-based vehicle compatibility

11:25:18  <Wolf01> BTW, you can't even make town roads as one way right now

11:25:20  <andythenorth_> Have to have a catenary bool

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11:25:46  <Wolf01> o/

11:25:50  <Alberth> o/

11:25:55  <andythenorth_> Lo alberth

11:26:14  <andythenorth_> Is everyone on holidays? Or slow time at work?

11:26:17  <Wolf01> The catenary bool was a great idea

11:26:38  <andythenorth_> was it? :)

11:26:51  <andythenorth_> but then labels don't determine power

11:28:01  <Wolf01> I fail to see the downsides... ROAD and ELRD vs ROAD+catenary

11:28:10  <V453000> hello gentlemen

11:28:13  <V453000> I shit brix

11:28:18  <Wolf01> Hello sluglord

11:28:37  <andythenorth_> downside is it doesn't work like railtypes

11:28:47  <andythenorth_> lo V

11:28:53  <andythenorth_> such textures

11:28:56  <Wolf01> That's the problem, road isn't rail

11:29:04  <V453000> need moar

11:29:08  <V453000> hand painting my ass

11:30:14  <andythenorth_> I have child #1 drawing pixels now

11:30:23  <V453000> automation

11:30:27  <andythenorth_> Pixelmator on ios

11:30:43  <andythenorth_> need apple $1m pencil

11:31:49  <V453000> I was actually considering buying an ipad for drawing in subway

11:31:58  <V453000> but the pencil is utterly puny when compared to wacom's pen

11:32:05  <andythenorth_> haven't tried pencil

11:32:19  <Wolf01> Just buy a surface

11:32:26  <andythenorth_> Ipad pro genuinely good hardware

11:32:29  <andythenorth_> But

11:32:34  <V453000> fun part, I am still considering bying an ipad for drawing in subway since I don't dare carrying my 2k euro tablet in subway...

11:32:37  <andythenorth_> Ios still sucks balls

11:32:49  <V453000> yeah ios = no full photoshop

11:32:51  <V453000> = the fuck

11:34:13  <andythenorth_> Photoshop will die

11:34:20  <andythenorth_> Affinity will kill it

11:34:28  <Wolf01> Uhm, there's the lenovo yoga, but I don't know if it supports pens

11:34:45  <V453000> is SF the critical person to do the killing blow? :D

11:35:21  <andythenorth_> biab

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11:45:49  <andythenorth_> anyone used the CargoSprinter thing in Iron Horse?

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11:59:30  <Alberth> pax thingie, isn't it?

11:59:40  <Alberth> I think I used it a few times

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12:00:20  <Alberth> but I never build serious pax networks :p

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12:18:51  <Wolf01> I forgot how github works...

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12:22:08  <Alberth> it's a website, just click on buttons :p

12:22:41  <Wolf01> It's not user friendly... and local git says "Error encountered while pushing to the remote repository: Not a valid reference 'origin/master'"

12:22:58  <Wolf01> But I've just updated that

12:23:14  <Alberth> git isn't friendly indeed

12:23:41  <Alberth> you're on the local master, and not origin/master ?

12:23:51  <Wolf01> Local master

12:23:55  <Alberth> ie not trying to push origin/master?

12:24:02  <Wolf01> I'm trying to sync it with OTTD/master

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12:25:15  <Alberth> you fetch wit a repo, not with a branch, although you can select a branch to update, perhaps

12:25:22  <Alberth> s/with/from/

12:25:40  <Alberth> at least, it sounds like you do    git fetch origin/master

12:25:55  <Alkel_U3> but git is really easy https://xkcd.com/1597/

12:27:01  <Alberth> it's horrible that people don't just refuse this kind of crap :(

12:29:32  <Alberth> option to pull a branch doesn't even exist, you simply get all updates, I think

12:30:11  <Alberth> ie git fetch origin

12:33:46  <Wolf01> BTW, to sync my origin with OTTD, base(mine)...head(OTTD) or the contrary? Because it was too difficult to write "merge X into Y" like I have on the desktop client...

12:35:47  <__ln__> what do you mean "option to pull a branch doesn't even exist"

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12:42:13  <Alberth> git-fetch(1)  doesn't have an option to specify a branch

12:42:27  <Alberth> s/have/list/

12:42:45  <__ln__> why don't you pull instead of fetch

12:44:04  <Alberth> "... git pull is shorthand for git fetch followed by git merge FETCH_HEAD"

12:44:28  <Alberth> and I usually don't want to do that merge and only that merge

12:44:32  <Wolf01> I always synced every branch alone

12:45:08  <Alberth> but since it does  git fetch, you still can't get changes of just 1 branch, as far as I can see

12:45:40  <Alberth> Wolf01:  pulling in new commits, and merging commits in your version are 2 different steps

12:46:11  <Alberth> former gets everything new from remote, as far as I can see, latter must be done 1 branch at a time

12:47:01  <Alberth> likely, you try to pull new updates every time, which takes some network traffic, but is otherwise harmless

12:47:22  <Wolf01> No, I mean, I have 4 branches, I pull every branch individually, work/merge/etc, commit&push

12:47:56  <Alberth> so how do you get updates for a single branch with fetch?

12:48:14  <Wolf01> I don't know, I use the UI

12:48:32  <Wolf01> Just right click on the item and "fetch"

12:48:41  <Wolf01> Or directly "pull"

12:48:52  <Alberth> so how do you know you don't pull everything the first time?

12:49:22  <Wolf01> Because when I switch to another branch it's not updated

12:49:38  <Alberth> pulling and updating a local branch are 2 different things

12:49:51  <Alberth> maybe the UI confuses things here

12:50:00  <Alberth> but it's not what git does

13:02:05  <blathijs> Actuall, git fetch takes a refspec argument, so I think you can do "git fetch origin some_branch"

13:02:34  <blathijs> Though I think it doesn't use the default fetch storage config, so it only fetches into FETCH_HEAD if you do that I believbe

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13:03:38  <blathijs> Oh, it actually does update the remote-tracking branch, if it exists, according to the git-fetch manpage

13:04:00  <Alberth> that would be logical :)

13:04:32  <blathijs> I often use it to fetch pull requests from github, using git fetch origin pull/123/head, but then it only updates FETCH_HEAD

13:05:42  <Alberth> since 123 branch doesn't exist, I guess

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15:26:56  <supermop_> yo

15:33:38  <Arveen2> https://media.giphy.com/media/11ZSwQNWba4YF2/giphy.gif

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15:52:54  <Wolf01> Mmmh, should the movement defined by the tile for all vehicles or by the vehicle in that particular tile?

15:53:23  <Wolf01> *should be

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15:57:19  <Wolf01> A) makes easy to define movement for different things, like on different road stops, ramps, roundabouts; B) allow to have vehicles moving in a different way, allowing for example different turn radius based on vehicle lenght

16:04:05  <supermop_> notStateMachines?

16:05:14  <Wolf01> My idea was to put the actual vehicle movement arrays into a grf

16:05:45  <supermop_> i want non loop tram end of lines

16:06:20  <supermop_> or single track you so you can force trams to go around a loop in the same direction

16:07:17  <Wolf01> I want to make vehicles always overtake on one way roads

16:07:17  <supermop_> but a tram might be 2-3 tiles long, and a switch that lets it reverse would have to then control movement on several tiles past its own

16:14:53  <supermop_> so basically what i need instead is an n-scale model tramway on my desk

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16:16:09  <andythenorth_> Wolf01

16:16:23  <andythenorth_> did you sort the repo sync?

16:16:28  <Wolf01> Yeah

16:16:37  <andythenorth_> pull ottd/master

16:16:41  <andythenorth_> merge, push

16:16:47  <Wolf01> I made a direct link now, so next time I should just make a pull request from that one

16:17:26  <Wolf01> Stupid cross repo merge UI

16:18:06  <andythenorth_> I use shell :p

16:18:21  <andythenorth_> I can't imagine using a git UI

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16:23:21  <andythenorth_> anyone ever use narrow gauge in Iron Horse?

16:23:46  <Wolf01> I only use rail/elrl :P

16:24:02  <Wolf01> Not even mono or maglev

16:27:44  <supermop_> i do to look pretty

16:28:07  <supermop_> and in that one switchback game i posted on here from years back

16:28:29  <supermop_> NG passenger service is rarely sensible

16:28:59  <supermop_> i sometimes used it to save money in early games

16:33:33  <Wolf01> <supermop_> but a tram might be 2-3 tiles long, and a switch that lets it reverse would have to then control movement on several tiles past its own <- basically you want a sort of wye

16:34:48  <andythenorth_> depot :p

16:34:59  <andythenorth_> infinite length wye

16:35:33  <andythenorth_> supermop_: so I should delete NG? o_O

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16:42:17  <Wolf01> Mmmh, reimplement tram EOL loop as zigzag

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17:12:35  <Wolf01> Quak

17:13:16  <frosch123> moi

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18:22:03  <supermop_> Wolf01: not quite a wye

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18:24:37  <supermop_> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=72718&hilit=bluestone

18:24:46  <supermop_> like the crossover at upper left

18:25:25  <Wolf01> Yeah

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18:29:45  <supermop_> i guess i could actually code all these roads now

18:30:53  <supermop_> i no longer have the rendering plug in i used for those however

18:31:05  <supermop_> would need to redo all the textures for vray

18:31:33  <andythenorth_> i guess I should keep narrow gauge eh?

18:31:46  <supermop_> andythenorth_: it looks pretty

18:33:06  <andythenorth_> logically, it would be better done as light rail in road hog

18:33:35  <andythenorth_> at least for this roster in IH, where NG is not important

18:34:43  <andythenorth_> maybe when I have laptop I can do something for NRT

18:34:57  <andythenorth_> to aid finishing it

18:36:03  <andythenorth_> frosch123 with groundtypes, how would tram reverse loops be built?

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18:43:43  <supermop_> by original plan was to draw the U loops at end of line as N crossovers

18:43:55  <supermop_> and let the trams look stupid when using them

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18:55:41  * andythenorth_ wonders how the bits get in the tile

19:02:01  <Wolf01> Single tram track in the middle of the road?

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19:04:55  <supermop_> single track tram in middle of airport runway

19:05:13  <supermop_> helipad in middle of log flume

19:05:35  <supermop_> runway in middle of subway

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19:31:20  <frosch123> andythenorth_: what is special about tram reverse loops?

19:31:37  <frosch123> why/what should be different?

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19:35:14  <Wolf01> He is worried about identifying the *type

19:35:24  <andythenorth_> if tram is built with road, then it will be tricky to add reverse loops where the road needs to continue

19:35:41  <andythenorth_> a unified building tool makes that impossible

19:36:00  <Wolf01> You continue with building just the road?

19:36:09  <andythenorth_> the tram bits and road bits are same

19:36:12  <frosch123> since when are tram and road built together?

19:36:23  <andythenorth_> assuming groundtypes

19:36:38  <frosch123> groundtypes does not change the gameplay

19:36:45  <andythenorth_> only one groundtype per tile

19:36:47  <Wolf01> I don't think bits will be touched

19:36:51  <frosch123> it's just shuffles who provides which graphics

19:38:04  <andythenorth_> so what's the UI sequence (clicks) for adding say TRAM to say cobble road?

19:38:34  <frosch123> btw. there is yet a third option: allow 100 road types, 100 tram types, but only allow 256 combinations of road/tram type in a single game

19:38:51  <andythenorth_> if I lose connection I'll rejoin btw :p

19:38:54  <frosch123> andythenorth_: same as now? select tram, add tram

19:39:21  <andythenorth_> which type of tram?

19:39:31  <andythenorth_> provided by which grf?

19:39:56  <frosch123> the tram that is built is not necessarily the tram you selected

19:40:10  <andythenorth_> likely I've misunderstood groundtypes proposal :)

19:40:14  <andythenorth_> and UI

19:40:18  <frosch123> like already today: adding unelectrified trackbits to electrified track keeps it electrified

19:40:24  <Wolf01> I still have one question: if the grf author has both tramway with catenary and trolleybus, and defines sprites for ROAD+ELRL and ELRD+RAIL, what does it change from now?

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19:41:10  <frosch123> Wolf01: all sprites on a tile are provided by a single grf, so the grf has full control to make the appearance unique

19:41:46  <Wolf01> And if I want to install one grfs with only roadtypes and one with tramtypes?

19:41:52  <frosch123> with separate road and tram grfs we always make one draw/win over the other

19:41:54  <Wolf01> Rekt?

19:42:27  <frosch123> tbh i don't see much tramtypes happen

19:44:18  <frosch123> wrt. compatibility i do not expect more than 4 roadtypes and 3 tramtypes, but i expect tons of visual options which do not affect compatibility at all

19:44:35  <andythenorth_> groundtypes would be built similar to objects?

19:45:32  <andythenorth_> so I might have a window with 'cobble road', 'cobble road with catenary', 'cobble road with tram', cobble road with tram and catenary'?

19:46:05  <andythenorth_> ah but they're all on egroundtype

19:46:49  <andythenorth_> so for reverse loop I just choose a different variant of same groundtype

19:47:14  <Wolf01> I had a weird idea, also, remove tramtypes at all, have 30 roadtypes which define the graphics for both road and road+tram (tram only uses the current graphics), and you add both rail and catenary as flags

19:47:51  <andythenorth_> somewhat my original hack :D

19:48:23  <frosch123> i don't know depots would behave; but for ordinary tracks i imagine 3 tools: build roadbits (only upgrade ground), build trambits (only upgrade ground), change ground without modifying bits

19:48:40  <frosch123> 3 conversion tools: convert road, convert tram, convert ground

19:48:54  <andythenorth_> we need a UI mockup :)

19:49:02  <andythenorth_> but I am on a phone :p

19:52:03  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I don't understand well how ground should behave (I understood it has some properties which allow or not certain combinations) but there isn't much to mock, the other tools just continue to work like they are now

19:57:22  <andythenorth_> what would be the most awesome thing, as a player?

19:57:39  <Wolf01> Full freedom

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19:58:14  <andythenorth_> nah the UI for that would be unusable ;)

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19:58:37  <frosch123> merging two tiles into a 6 lane road with 2xroad,2xtram,2xroad :p

19:59:23  <andythenorth_> full freedom would imply precise control  over each layer (ground, road, sidewalks etc) :)

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20:00:32  <Wolf01> Which is a combination of NRT and newobjects

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20:01:14  <andythenorth_> frosch123: also clover leaf junctions :p

20:01:30  <frosch123> split before merge :p

20:02:01  <andythenorth_> different lanes

20:02:08  <andythenorth_> blah blah

20:04:04  <andythenorth_> what's the country roads grf?

20:04:09  * andythenorth_ looks

20:07:22  <andythenorth_> mud and sand

20:08:18  <Wolf01> BTW, making *types dynamic would be cool, so you can have 28 roads and 2 trams, with curated graphics so every combination is drawn and approved by the author itself

20:09:37  <Wolf01> And the author decides which combinations won't be possible to have

20:09:48  <andythenorth_> could supermop roadtypes be done with sidewalks overlay?

20:10:03  <supermop_> done as in complete? sure

20:10:15  * andythenorth_ wondering about object-style eye candy layer

20:10:48  <supermop_> sidewalks/benches/trees/lamps/whatever

20:10:49  <frosch123> it's like the trees

20:11:02  <frosch123> just that sidewalks are not toggleable via transparency settings

20:11:20  <Wolf01> A grf could provide only one thing? For example, can you have a vehicle+roadtype+object all in one?

20:13:34  <andythenorth_> RH provides vehicles and roadtypes in one grf

20:14:45  <andythenorth_> biab, will lose connection now

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22:09:29  <andythenorth_> is it resolved then? :D

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22:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> A grf could provide only one thing? For example, can you have a vehicle+roadtype+object all in one? <-- all-in-one grfs tend to turn out terrible in the long run... people keep asking "could i have part X without part Y?"

22:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> usually because something new popped up which does Y in a better way

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23:24:51  <andythenorth_> such train lengths

23:25:03  * andythenorth_ figuring out narrow gauge now

23:25:25  <andythenorth_> nearly figured all of v2 Iron Horse :)

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23:27:30  <andythenorth_> wondering if 2/8 is plausible, for wagons

23:28:06  <andythenorth_> it's only 8px in - view

23:28:16  <andythenorth_> might be too small eh

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23:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS 3/16 was the shortest i did

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