IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-05-04
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00:19:02 <Payl> Hi guys, I have question regarding openttd archaic development: I understand that OpenTTD was produced using reverse-engineering, but I assume TTD prevented any derivative work from it, so how OpenTTD was made possible then?
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00:21:50 <ST2> hey Payl: check all the "patchpack" clients available - each one with their code. ofc, since based on OpenTTD won't be called Potato Transport ^^
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00:23:39 <Payl|2> ST2: OpenTTD is GPL so it allows derivative work etc. but AFAIK TTD was never opensource, so how is that related?
00:24:37 <ST2> <Payl|2> ST2: OpenTTD (...)
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00:25:22 <Payl|2> ST2: Yup, I think there is irc-split going on now :P
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00:26:47 <ST2> anyway, and as you mentioned about the split, better wait until things get stable... to make your question
00:27:00 <ST2> I'm not the right person to answer it :)
00:28:20 <Payl|2> yeah, but nobody here is lawyer to answer if that is legit or not, but I'm asking under what basis OpenTTD emerged... Was it just like I don't care about TTD rights, just make it open, or is it thought tru :)
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00:32:19 <Payl|2> ST2: sadly wikipedia and other similiar sources seem to miss details that I'm after, because it's just said that OpenTTD is GPL, but TTD was commercial, and you can't just magically make GPL out of commercial :P
00:33:21 <ST2> and probably you won't find original OpenTTD makers here to answer it (I think) :)
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00:34:43 <ST2> but I hope you find here people to answer your questions
00:34:53 <ST2> my suggestions: try a bit earlier :)
00:35:12 <Payl|2> ST2: thats what scares me :D because clearly original media was never redistributed with OpenTTD, do you have idea why?
00:35:31 <ST2> [23:34:47] <ST2> my suggestion: try a bit earlier :)
00:35:34 <Payl|2> ST2: yeah, i probably should ask earlier, but it just occured to me recently :D
00:35:56 <glx_> because original media is copyrighted
00:36:27 <Payl|2> alright, original media is copyrighted, but game exectuable wasnt?
00:37:03 <Payl|2> because clearly OpenTTD = Taking TTD executable and reversing it into code which would be illegal in most cases, so... eh?
00:37:36 <_dp_> Payl|2, check tt-forums, lisensing was discussed multiple times there
00:38:00 <Payl|2> _dp_: I looked in archaic forums but couldn't find anything interesting, any pointers? :)
00:38:42 <Payl|2> glx_: ok, can you save me learning swedish and tell me what is allowed in sweden if you know? because it's very interesting
00:41:00 <ST2> may I ask Payl|2: why the sudden curiosity?
00:41:33 <Payl|2> ST2: not really sudden, always wonedered and now i have to make essay on "history of open source games" so i want to get bottom where i can :)
00:41:48 <glx_> I don't know exactly, but when ludde did it it was allowed
00:44:21 <ST2> _dp_ done the search for Payl|2 :)
00:45:33 <Payl|2> _dp_: thanks! Sorry i didnt respond earlier was just trying to read it xD
00:46:18 <Payl|2> ok so bottom point seems to be that "somewhere" it is legal to do that... which is rather weird but probably nobody here knows how exactly swedish law states that...
00:47:15 * ST2 searching for some exotic countries (hot, of preference) xD
00:48:30 <Payl|2> ST2: it's best not to search for too exotic otherwise you will end up with a country that is closed up oil platform
00:49:19 <ST2> meh, with beautifull women... even "oil" goes well (well as intended pun xD)
00:49:35 <Payl|2> glx_: it might be if we are talking about drama, because I think they hosted thepiratebay at one point... ohwell
00:50:32 <ST2> sec, oppening bets table that Payl|2 is studying at a law schooll
00:50:42 <ST2> and yeah, bets are legal here xD
00:51:02 <Payl|2> whats interesting is that openrct2 which seems to have same "licensing" problem as openttd but author of openrct2 is from great britain :P
00:51:18 <Payl|2> ST2: I'm studying informatics, plot twist
00:51:50 <ST2> ok, let me add the plot twist to the bets xD
00:51:59 <Payl|2> sadly they wanted me to dive into licensing BS on one subject and since I love OpenTTD here i am :D
00:53:30 <glx> it's probably a grey zone like abandonware
00:55:35 <Payl|2> glx: i always assumed that somehow it is legal :( But ohwell, i guess it is legal as long as they don't call you out. And they can't since all TTD code was rewritten already
00:58:06 <supermop_> Payl|2: i cannpt speak for ttd patch, but effectively OpenTTD is fresh code in C that happens to achieve similar results to TTD's original assembler code
00:59:07 <ST2> supermop_: lets call it now C++ (for the most ^^)
00:59:32 <supermop_> ST2: yeah, but i was unsure what the original project was done as
00:59:43 <Payl|2> supermop: tddpatch is effectivelly a patch AFAIK and hence is just illegal in most countries
01:00:23 <Cubey> These issues are complicated because the rules about patents, trademarks, and copyrights are different, but also interact with each other
01:00:58 <ST2> supermop_: you're correct - can we have a C+ (on the middle xD)
01:01:15 <Payl|2> Cubey: I'd say problem isn't with rules
01:01:29 <Payl|2> problem is that a court could say screw rules
01:01:46 <Cubey> Well like, the idea of abandonware as a "grey area"
01:02:03 <Cubey> It's not really a legally grey area, it's either under copyright or it isn't
01:02:24 <Cubey> But if the trademarks are no longer in use, the owner of the copyright might not care about it
01:02:37 <glx> abandonware is illegal, but there is some tolerance
01:02:39 <Payl|2> Cubey: true, but with openTTD it might be hard to establish whenever it is full legit or grey
01:02:46 <supermop_> Payl|2: yes, patch is open and shut reverse engineering
01:03:11 <Cubey> OpenTTD could violate patents without violating any copyrights
01:03:18 <Cubey> I don't know whether any part of the original TTD was patented though
01:03:50 <glx> IIRC there is no software patents in europe
01:04:04 <supermop_> likely not any enforcable patents on it
01:04:17 <Payl|2> I doubt that TTD was patented... but TTD might have violated patents itself, because patents are very specific usually lol
01:04:30 <supermop_> you can patent a game concept in the US, but actually enforcing it is very tricky and complex
01:04:44 <Cubey> Software patents are super problematic both in theory and in practice
01:04:51 <Payl|2> hire a good lawyer and TTD did violate patents, hire a bad one and it didn't :)
01:05:32 <Cubey> I think the conclusion has to be that any blanket statement you make about intellectual property law is probably going to have some exceptions
01:05:57 <glx> software patents are silly, because with a given input there are many ways to get the same output
01:06:10 <Cubey> The gray areas aren't so much gaps in the law as they are gaps in how the law is practiced and used
01:06:53 <Cubey> Couldn't the game itself be patented, as opposed to the code that executes the game?
01:07:18 <Cubey> I mean, today a TTD-like game could not be patented because there are so many examples of prior art
01:07:36 <Payl|2> We are going into meta-talking here, but even speaking of OpenTTD, it might have been "ok" to reverse engineer game and produce another work
01:08:01 <supermop_> Cubey: you can still patent it depending on how you write the application
01:08:05 <Cubey> I'm sure openttd is "OK" because it's still around
01:08:24 <Cubey> If anybody had a claim against it, they've lost it now just by not using it
01:08:29 <supermop_> but someone could get your patent invalidated by citing prior art if you make your's too general
01:08:31 <Payl|2> Cubey: it's like saying "because i shot someone and i'm not caught already it must be OK" ;)
01:08:42 <Cubey> In IP law that is actually how it works though
01:08:52 <supermop_> Payl|2: that is how it works if you shoot someone too
01:08:56 <Cubey> Trademarks have to be vigorously defended
01:09:01 <supermop_> if you wait long enough
01:09:05 <glx> and chris sawyer has already enough problems with the publisher about who owns the game IIRC
01:09:08 <Cubey> There is usually no statute of limitations on murder
01:09:34 <Payl|2> Cubey: *depending on country
01:09:52 <supermop_> Cubey: exactly, that's why you sometimes see a ridiculous case of someone suing some little guy that barely even in fringes, even if they loose the case and it generates bad publicity
01:10:20 <Payl|2> supermop: i thought thats how elections work
01:11:24 <Payl|2> i guess programmers don't make good lawyers since they tend to interpret law instead of applying it lol
01:11:26 <supermop_> because then later, a malicious actor can say - company x didn;t enforce patent against little guy Y, so patent does not apply
01:11:47 <supermop_> my wife is a programmer and her sister is an IP lawyer
01:11:59 <Cubey> It looks like in the United States the statute of limitations on criminal proceedings resulting from copyright violation is five years, and for civil actions three years
01:12:02 <supermop_> between the two of them i get a good insight
01:12:34 <Payl|2> Cubey: remember that this occured in sweden, so whocares about US :P
01:12:55 <Cubey> The US generally has harsher IP laws than European countries
01:12:58 <glx> supermop_: usually the ridiculous cases come from patent trolls
01:13:08 <Cubey> So if something is in the clear in the US, it's probably fine in Sweden too
01:13:32 <Cubey> Of course that's just speculation... not good to rely on assumptions where the law is concerned
01:13:39 <Payl|2> Cubey: it is in clear now, but not when it was done ;)
01:13:53 <Payl|2> or was it, thats the question...
01:14:12 <Cubey> Either way, it's probably too late for anyone to do anything about it now in any relevant jurisdiction
01:14:59 <Payl|2> Cubey: yes, but point of talking about it is that it can be applied to OpenRCT2 or any to-be-made OpenX game
01:15:38 <Cubey> OpenRCT is potentially more fraught because the rollercoaster tycoon trademark is still in use
01:15:54 <Cubey> They even came out with a mobile version of RCT2 recently, right
01:16:12 <Payl|2> really? I heard of RCT4 on mobile or sth like that
01:16:43 <Cubey> I don't know what it is called, but I know that you can use savegames and scenarios from RCT2 with it
01:17:16 <Payl|2> Cubey: god i hope it isn't patented :D but honestly it doesn't mean anything about if they actually used same game
01:17:42 <Cubey> Yeah, the potential issue I'm seeing is with the name, not the functionality
01:17:47 <Payl|2> i actually doubt it's RCT2 since RCT2=assembly ;)
01:18:36 <Payl|2> Cubey: did you ever tried playing OpenTTD on phone? it works sure, but UI is terrible and sadly it wont work good unless you make 1000x zoom
01:19:15 <glx> mobile version is not official and not supported ;)
01:19:25 <Cubey> Actually I think I first got into openttd because I noticed it was one of those things that gets ported to every imaginable platform
01:19:49 <Cubey> That would've been a little bit before smartphones became widespread though
01:20:27 <glx> we still have windows CE traces in source code :)
01:20:32 <Payl|2> I picked up OpenTTD because I enjoyed TTD and OpenTTD is just plain better TTD
01:20:37 <Cubey> I haven't played the mobile RCT game but I've seen a lot of screenshots, and the interface is much chunkier and "finger friendly," but also much uglier and not fitting with the pixel art assets at all
01:21:13 <Payl|2> and honestly one thing OpenTTD does great is that it can handle thousands of vehicles moving at once, which removes virtually any limits on most machines.
01:21:35 <Cubey> I never had TTD as a kid. I might not even be old enough to have been exposed to it
01:22:04 <glx> Payl|2: you never tried to load so openttdcoop savegames ;)
01:22:04 <Payl|2> well i'm not old, but i have dosbox/vms :P
01:22:32 <Cubey> My laptop is only like 6 years old and the game definitely slows to a crawl when I have thousands of vehicles on a huge map
01:22:36 <Payl|2> glx: i tried it to check performance of my computer, was stable and working :P
01:23:10 <glx> openttd still use only 1 core for all game logic
01:23:14 <Payl|2> btw. does openttd make use of multithreaded cpus?
01:23:21 <Payl|2> oh lol i was just about to ask it <3
01:23:52 <glx> because everything needs to be synchronised
01:23:59 <Payl|2> glx: please make it NUMA aware, cant wait to run it on my 12-core dual-xeon setup
01:24:31 <Cubey> It seems like an openttd-like game could be massively parallelized down to the level of individual trains
01:24:54 <Payl|2> Cubey: you are actually wrong, since synchronization is a cost
01:25:22 <Cubey> Doesn't the game proceed in tics?
01:25:43 <Payl|2> Cubey: it does, but trains "race" for signals
01:25:47 <glx> it does but everything should happen in the exact same order on all clients
01:26:47 <Payl|2> IMO problem isn't order, since you can fix it if it ever goes wrong, but synchronization of every signal
01:27:30 <Cubey> What if you only implemented path signals
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01:28:15 <Payl|2> Cubey: it isn't problem on this level, it is a problem that two threads have to stop on >every signal<
01:28:17 <Cubey> Oh I guess you still have to worry about which train reserved a path first
01:29:06 <Payl|2> what could be parallelized is map tick
01:29:27 <glx> not really as every thing relies on the map
01:29:53 <Payl|2> glx: are there any events that couldn't wait for next tick?
01:30:35 <Payl|2> assuming user did X, and map did Y, it can be synchronized once per tick, user won't notice ;p
01:31:12 <ST2> what glx said is: user X done this, user Y did that... etc
01:31:37 <Payl|2> ST2: even now it's done only once per tick
01:32:08 <glx> yes commands are already queued
01:32:44 <ST2> and processed, I get it glx :)
01:33:26 <Payl|2> so it's mostly just that it a lot of mess done in order to divide job a little further
01:33:54 <glx> it's quite impossible to make use of multiple cores without rewriting openttd from scratch
01:34:15 <glx> the actual code is not designed for multicore
01:34:23 <Payl|2> glx: not impossible, but nearly impossible without breaking something major :P
01:35:06 <Payl|2> worst of all are all GRFs that can do anything they want
01:35:52 <Payl|2> glx: proof you are wrong:
01:36:03 <Payl|2> openttd already uses multiple threads
01:36:20 <Payl|2> for cargo calculations ;)
01:37:07 <Payl|2> i know thats not what we are looking for anyways :)
01:37:57 <Payl|2> ST2: in short, either buy a new laptop
01:38:16 <Payl|2> or don't make huge openttd maps ;p
01:58:48 <ST2> [00:56:23] <Payl|2> [01:37:57] ST2: in short, either buy a new laptop <<-- can you explain why the suggestion?
02:04:51 <Payl|2> ST2: oops my bad Cubey actually said he has 6yrs old laptop! :)
02:05:55 <Payl|2> anyway, thx all of you for explaining me licensing or rather how stupid is... I g2g, cya :p
02:06:08 <ST2> well, I'm on a laptop too - not that old
02:07:15 <ST2> but I enough to say that all Xeon processors are bad for games - even thw ones with lev2 and lev3 higher memory sizes
02:30:30 <ST2> anyway, it was just fun because, on another channel I mentioned this:
02:30:42 <ST2> [00:56:20] <~ST2> [00:53:15] <<user>>: from now on, if I leave games very quickly, nothing related to game itself - termic pasta burned on laptop (and probably dusty fans too)
02:30:56 <ST2> [00:56:20] <~ST2> [00:53:42] so, I easilly reach 90C on it
02:31:20 <ST2> and... [00:56:23] <Payl|2> [01:37:57] ST2: in short, either buy a new laptop
02:32:37 <ST2> later ...: burned = burnt (or whatever english people accept xD)
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09:56:15 <Wolf01> Bah, the netflix app for win10 is really bad integrated, no audio mixer support, fullscreen only with the in -app button...
09:58:09 <__ln__> Wolf01: just use playstation 3.
09:58:26 <Wolf01> I could use the xbox360 but the fan is loud
10:01:18 <Wolf01> I could give a try with EarTrumpet, but I'm afraid of the "can use all the system resources", which mean really everything
10:06:43 <Wolf01> I'm slowly becoming andy... I shouldn't care to give away my privacy, as I use Win10 I'm already doomed XD
10:11:24 <Wolf01> Also downloading ubuntu 16 iso, one of the pc decided it was the case to TFU while updating :(
10:12:34 <Wolf01> A fresh install should be nice, that system was installed as 10.04
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17:44:14 <supermop_> damn it just noticed suitpants have a huge grease stain on them
17:44:23 <supermop_> right before i go to interview
17:44:34 <supermop_> this is what i get for wearing grey suit
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20:17:44 <andythenorth> auto-signal is just too spooky :)
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20:31:42 * andythenorth has 50% of an idea for a GS
20:33:13 <frosch123> i had an idea for a wagonset, but it does not work
20:33:38 * Wolf01 has 1% of an idea for his life
20:33:47 <frosch123> today i passed the trainstation and saw a tanker wagon with 4 big letters on it
20:34:16 <frosch123> so i considered making a newgrf which supports all cargos ever, by printing the cargo label onto the sprite using sprite layers
20:34:30 <frosch123> but there is no variable to read the cargo label
20:34:52 <andythenorth> that’s mutable :P
20:35:33 <frosch123> i am not sure whether i can still change the cargo translation table during activation phase
20:35:58 <frosch123> maybe i could loop over all labels and test their presence
20:36:43 <frosch123> 80 million iterations when loading the grf
20:36:47 <frosch123> no idea how long that would take
20:37:25 <frosch123> could restrict it to only uppercase letters and a few specials like _
20:39:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: did you consider adding large display to industry graphics
20:40:02 <frosch123> where they display their production rate?
20:41:35 <frosch123> using the sprite font
20:42:02 <andythenorth> I considered trying to show accept / produce cargos before
20:42:26 <frosch123> maybe something for yeti
20:42:35 <frosch123> "WANT FOOD", "WANT COAL"
20:43:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27866 /branches/1.7 (7 files in 4 dirs) (2017-05-04 20:43:13 +0200 )
20:43:21 <DorpsGek> [1.7] -Update: Documentation
20:45:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27867 /tags/1.7.1-RC1 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2017-05-04 20:45:16 +0200 )
20:46:29 * andythenorth should finish bloody FIRS
20:46:34 <andythenorth> April 1 came and went
20:46:38 <frosch123> is there a verbal jedi greeting?
20:48:02 <andythenorth> only in the force, probably
20:48:17 <andythenorth> hmm, can I build FIRS port-type industries on rivers?
20:48:27 <andythenorth> some maps don’t have enough coast :P
20:58:23 <andythenorth> got an idea for a variant of BB
20:58:43 <andythenorth> where town cargos have to be delivered constantly at x / year
20:58:45 <andythenorth> anywhere on the map
20:58:55 <andythenorth> with some kind of ‘level up’ mechanic
20:59:07 <andythenorth> but primary freight works like BB, with spot contracts
21:09:15 <Alberth> sort of distributed city builder :)
21:10:49 <andythenorth> actual city growth I don’t care about
21:11:00 <Alberth> isn't city cargoes a bit limited?
21:11:39 <Alberth> ho, I missed a line of text :)
21:12:34 <Alberth> what's primary freight?
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21:44:22 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.7.1-RC1, 1.7.0
21:44:22 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.7.1-RC1, 1.7.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | #openttd.dev if this channel is really spammy"
22:13:40 <Wolf01> <frosch123> is there a verbal jedi greeting? <- "FORCEd removal of canals"
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