IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-04-30
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00:30:26 <supermop> how do composited sprites work V453000?
00:30:37 <supermop> do they have like bounding boxes?
00:31:31 <supermop> if cab is separate from truck body, how does it know what order to draw them based of which was truck is driving
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03:36:26 <quiznilo> speaking of breakdowns, I want to see a horse break down
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06:51:26 <quiznilo> this is a new one... ottd opponent appears to be transporting livestock in zeppelins
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08:31:01 <quiznilo> mornin' andy... I'm out
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09:39:30 <Alberth> make a parameter "boring" or "fun", and rename to "fertilizer plant" resp "explosives plant" :p
09:40:18 <Alberth> if you produce one cargo more than the other, the choice is easy
09:42:00 <Alberth> either cargo is a bit fishy, looking at the cargo flow
09:43:39 <Alberth> fertilizer fits better with the other cargos imho, explosives is odd
09:44:06 <Alberth> could work for a mining economy though
09:44:56 <Alberth> make a MAYHEM economy, aimed at coop :p
09:45:49 <Alberth> I am quite not sure bulk terminal makes sense, imho
09:46:46 <Alberth> make a drag-site on water that produces clay
09:48:19 <andythenorth> I should rename it kaolin
09:48:26 <andythenorth> too much RL intervening :P
10:09:53 <andythenorth> could drop clay maybe
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13:23:09 <Wolf01> Shit V453000, do you guys even get rest?
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14:06:46 <andythenorth> such chores to do
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14:42:02 <supermop> this cant be a good idea, but here i am
14:42:59 <supermop> need to figure out how to composite sprites for truck bodies
14:43:39 <supermop> also, what are the disadvantages of curtain-sided trucks
14:44:18 <frosch123> django could suddenly open them
14:46:18 <supermop> they vanilla goods trucks have ridges down the side and i never really could tell if they were meant to be curtain sided or part of the framing of the truck
14:46:35 <supermop> though i may as well try drawing loading sprites so...
15:02:12 <Wolf01> Pfff I was looking on the debug switches to re-enable the pollution layer :|
15:02:40 <Wolf01> I just noticed that layers now have nice buttons on the minimap
15:03:55 <Wolf01> Still not possible to enable them on the actual minimap but only on the large map
15:08:10 <frosch123> the new "q" behaviour confuses me
15:08:35 <Wolf01> Yes, a bit, but I got used and now I really like it
15:09:04 <Wolf01> Specially in sandbox mode
15:12:19 <andythenorth> supermop: what kind of truck are curtain-side? o_O
15:12:31 <andythenorth> that is why I never included them
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15:47:26 <__ln__> two finns and a german on the podium
15:50:50 <__ln__> bottas won, vettel second
15:52:14 <frosch123> i thought it would be something more violent
15:55:06 <__ln__> LordAro: yes, spoilers in each car
16:07:24 <supermop> andy a curtain sider is a curtain sider
16:10:39 <frosch123> Wolf01: somehow the "made in" tooltip is only shown for not-hand-craftable stuff
16:10:46 <frosch123> no idea whether it has always been like that
16:18:34 <peter1138> max speed 48.3 mph, oo er
17:03:53 <Wolf01> frosch123, I think that where to make other stuff is already inferred from the number of materials required, up to 2, up to 4 and more than 4
17:32:53 <supermop> can i paint part of a truck cc blue and then use some cc magic to make it other colors in some cases?
17:38:47 <andythenorth> supermop: 'depends’
17:41:33 <supermop> this open truck, idk if the 'open' part whatever it's called should be cc or grey or wood
17:44:28 <andythenorth> then the player chooses
17:45:01 <supermop> im using the same bodies for all generations
17:45:39 <supermop> although it would be nice to add fancier 2cc stripes in later generations
17:46:32 <andythenorth> why is train length display in depot not just an int?
17:46:39 <andythenorth> and could I have a setting so it’s an int?
17:46:45 <supermop> are containers really carried on regular flatbeds, or is it a different type of frame?
17:47:11 <supermop> i recall it looking more like a hollow frame, without much decking
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17:47:29 <andythenorth> skeletal trailers where containers are common
17:47:36 <andythenorth> otherwise flat or dropside
17:48:08 <supermop> also - how to take containers off a trolley truck without getting 1500V on the lift?
17:48:33 <supermop> i guess it would just short out
17:53:05 <supermop> pull off to side on trolley poles?
17:53:21 <supermop> think pallets on flatbe is better then
18:02:43 * andythenorth has to have integer length trains, or at least x.5
18:02:47 <andythenorth> anything else is all wrong
18:03:28 <andythenorth> but that means I have to rework most of Iron Horse :|
18:07:22 <frosch123> supermop: you can do about everything with recoloring
18:08:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: why do you care, are you turning into v?
18:08:42 <andythenorth> I thought the same
18:09:13 <frosch123> v chained 2 or 3 wagons into a single articulated wagon, so that all wagons and engines have length 1 tile
18:09:52 <andythenorth> I am considering it
18:11:03 <andythenorth> .9 and .1 are particularly irritating
18:11:17 <andythenorth> I am seriously considering patching locally to ‘eliminate’ the issue
18:11:55 <supermop> what is the need for integer trains?
18:13:06 <Wolf01> Why not just make consists of wagons with randomized liveries and fixed length (4 tiles, 8 tiles)?
18:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a totally different issue with that display
18:13:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I considered fixed length trains
18:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that it doesn't properly display 1/16th units
18:13:40 <andythenorth> everyone uses TL 5, right?
18:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so :p
18:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't coop use 3?
18:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> my freight trains often come in length 10 or 12
18:14:40 <Wolf01> Attach 2 consists together
18:14:41 <andythenorth> with or without engine? o_O
18:14:52 <andythenorth> maybe you shouldn’t choose engine, that’s unnecessary
18:14:55 <supermop> i like 4-5 for passengers and 3 for branch freight, 8 for main freight
18:15:01 <andythenorth> you just buy ‘coal train’ or whatever
18:15:26 <supermop> andythenorth: also add in app purchases
18:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that would annoy the crap out of me
18:15:42 <Wolf01> andythenorth, yeah, that would "fix" the problem of using fast pax engine with freight wagons and trying to figure out why it doesn't go uphill with a full load of steel
18:15:44 <andythenorth> I also considered a magic last vehicle
18:16:00 <andythenorth> last vehicle could fake its length to make the train integer length
18:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean a caboose?
18:16:08 <quiznilo> heavyweight mail car $$
18:16:11 <andythenorth> just whatever is last
18:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i honestly don't understand your problem
18:16:38 <supermop> tbh i never care if i have all 4.9 TL trains at my 5 tile station
18:16:50 <Wolf01> Ahaha, just make 8 fake cabeese, 1/8, 2/8, 3/8... and use the one which fill the integer
18:16:54 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause same here
18:17:11 <quiznilo> I'm assuming 'cabeese' is the plural of 'caboose'
18:17:14 <supermop> whats the problem with a 4.8 length train?
18:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if a wagon is 0.6, and the display in the depot is 4.2, i know at a glance that i can fit another wagon in
18:17:47 <supermop> all i need to know is that i need a station at least that long
18:17:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's 4.8 i can't
18:18:17 <Wolf01> What about a "tile lenght indicator" in the depot window instead?
18:18:24 <Eddi|zuHause> if it flat out "rounded" to 5, i must actually attach a wagon to see that it won't fit anymore
18:18:39 <supermop> if i buy one more wagon and its 5.1 i sell the wagon or save it for the next train
18:18:49 <frosch123> Wolf01: compatiblity issues with 28/32 vehicles
18:18:59 <frosch123> otherwise i would have added it years ago :p
18:19:34 <Wolf01> No, I meant really a ruler drawn over the rows, like the word processors
18:20:13 <frosch123> yes, but that only works if 1 tile length is always 32 or 28 pixels
18:20:20 <frosch123> and not different per train
18:21:17 <Wolf01> Never noticed that... maybe because I'm using always the same grf since... ever
18:21:19 <frosch123> you need a game which is less f-ed up with half features like ottd :)
18:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> can such a game even exist?
18:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are loads of WTF in the original pong code
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18:35:19 <johannes_2> Hello, I have a city with only one train station, where the servies for all kinds of produces goods (passengers, mail and money) are judged good or better. still, the town rating is still medium for years now...
18:35:38 <johannes_2> could there be any reason why the town does not increase my rating?
18:38:03 <frosch123> if you have a services station and do nothing otherwise, rating should increase about every 16 months
18:38:28 <quiznilo> if you subscribe to the notion that TTD was the original asperger's troll, there are lots of problems with 4.8 length trains, or 5.1 length trains.
18:38:43 <frosch123> note that unserviced stations decrease rating
18:38:52 <frosch123> so make sure that all your stations are good
18:41:30 <supermop> what magic do you use to render various minerals andythenorth?
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18:42:20 <andythenorth> python recolouring of pngs
18:45:14 <johannes_2> frosch123: actually all stations are good, but it did not increase after 5 years iirc
18:45:40 <johannes_2> also, many other towns increase the rating more often than once a year
18:46:32 <Eddi|zuHause> quiznilo: but with stock vehicles you only ever get .0 and .5
18:48:44 <supermop> ogfx sprite sheet has some open trucks with brown sides
18:49:04 <supermop> and something that looks covered by a big grey tarp
18:49:51 <supermop> i should be using like 2nd gen ih wagons for these truck bodies
18:51:09 <johannes_2> frosch123: thanks. I have one active station and a rating of mediocre, so the formula says it needs to increase by 17 every month, which means that after 13 months, the rating must be >= 0 + 13*17 >= 200
18:51:23 <johannes_2> however, I've just skipped 13 months and it is still mediocre
18:51:57 <johannes_2> I once had on old train station that I bulldozed, but these should not be counted
18:52:10 <frosch123> well, it's less about your station rating, but more about how often you load/unload cargo
18:52:51 <johannes_2> cargo is transfered more often than each 50 days
18:54:56 <johannes_2> would you mind looking at the city? I could mail the savegame to you
18:55:24 <frosch123> i need to get more iron
18:56:18 <johannes_2> Eddi|zuHause: Could you please check my savegame for issues with this city?
18:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i cannot check your savegame
18:57:14 <supermop> johannes_2 best to post it on tt-forums
18:57:29 <supermop> with maybe some screenshots
18:57:37 <johannes_2> or I'll just run gdb on it
18:57:50 <johannes_2> that should clearly show the calculation
18:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you know that saying about kanonen and spatzen?
18:58:24 <supermop> not everyone can open up an run the game right now, but someone on the forum will probably take a look
18:58:49 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds way too idiomatic to have been covered in any german class i took
19:00:56 <supermop> maybe all the cabs should be 2cc for trolley trucks
19:02:01 <johannes_2> hehe at least, if it's a bug (which I don't assume), I'll know the exact reason
20:08:26 <quiznilo> supermop: 3 for branch freight? Seriously?
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20:43:00 <andythenorth> I could do all trains at 4/8 or 8/8
20:56:33 <V453000> that sounds like too much of a good idea
21:00:35 <andythenorth> V453000: why is non 0.5 lengths shit?
21:00:38 <andythenorth> I can’t figure it out
21:00:59 <V453000> because station and signal tiles are always whole numbers?
21:01:12 <andythenorth> also it’s a stupid guessing game
21:01:21 <andythenorth> depot buy menu doesn’t indicate length
21:02:01 <frosch123> make a patch for thatr
21:02:02 <V453000> well you can mention it there
21:02:08 <andythenorth> also how does 10/8 resolve to single decimal place?
21:02:11 <V453000> but it's just a mess gameplay wise
21:02:19 <andythenorth> or am I just being weird?
21:02:27 <andythenorth> it annoys fuck out of me, but I don’t know why
21:03:31 <andythenorth> but 6/8 looks nice :P
21:03:54 <andythenorth> and fits nicely into 3, 6, 9 tile TL :P
21:05:26 <V453000> yeah, and horribly into everything else :P
21:05:36 <V453000> esp when mixed with 8/8 engines
21:08:22 <frosch123> which tech do i need for blueprints?
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21:10:37 <frosch123> also what about these receipts with a cargo that is both input and output?
21:10:51 <frosch123> first i though it was a typo, but now i found a second one
21:15:26 <frosch123> ah, found the blueprints
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21:23:32 <Wolf01> V453000, the new train orders, how do they work? I tried to set "fluid count > 10k && item count = 0" but even after the fluid reached 22k the train was still there
21:33:59 <Wolf01> Ok, I think I got it... I had to set the signal, I thought it was for the circuit network condition
21:34:52 <andythenorth> “Cogeneration plant” or “Combined heat and power plant”?
21:35:32 <Wolf01> Why differ? Just "power plant" isn't good?
21:35:40 <frosch123> i use the term "cogeneration" at work
21:36:05 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it has different graphics to regular coal / oil power plant
21:36:17 <andythenorth> or I could just…not do that
21:36:37 <Wolf01> Does it use the same fuel?
21:37:08 <andythenorth> I am kicking around having biomass / woodchips in some other economy
21:37:31 <andythenorth> some kind of 21st century sustainability thing
21:37:41 <andythenorth> plastic -> additive manufacturing plant
21:37:46 <andythenorth> iphones -> shredder
21:38:03 <andythenorth> probiotics -> dairy ->.yoghurt shop
21:38:17 <andythenorth> gluten free food -> general store
21:38:29 <andythenorth> windmills -> sea
21:38:35 <Wolf01> Meh... 1 U-235 so far :(
21:38:37 <andythenorth> batteries -> tesla plant
21:38:52 <andythenorth> town food waste -> compost
21:39:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: you are already quite good at deprecating cargo, you do not need external hipster terms
21:39:52 <Wolf01> BTW, is tesla plant->batteries
21:40:04 <andythenorth> tesla plant -> batteries -> tesla car plant
21:40:19 <andythenorth> I needed more sea industries: space X landing barge
21:40:27 <andythenorth> accepts: nothing
21:40:34 <andythenorth> produces: lightly used rockets
21:41:29 <Wolf01> Mmmmh, rockets... make a graphic for aicrafts which only raise vertically in the runway, then transparent graphics and no shadow until they land on the other airport
21:47:06 <supermop> Wolf01 hard to click on
21:47:42 <Wolf01> Because you click on the planes while they travel at 900kmh?
21:48:54 <supermop> really don't feel like drawing truck cargo
21:49:16 <andythenorth> supermop: just don’t :P
21:49:16 <supermop> what are the sensible tradeoffs for load spead?
21:49:32 <andythenorth> supermop: what code base are you working with?
21:49:38 <supermop> like, running cost seems like wouldn't care
21:50:06 <supermop> andythenorthi am adding the rest of the ogfx+rv types to trolleybi trucks
21:50:27 <supermop> so trolleybi, which is very simple
21:50:56 <andythenorth> if you ported it to Road Hog, you get a lot free
21:50:58 <supermop> i would also usually choose load speed over top speed 90% of the time for RVs
21:51:03 <andythenorth> but it’s much more to work with
21:51:10 <andythenorth> more dependencies etc
21:51:16 <supermop> andythenorth: then its not ogfx+ ish
21:51:45 <supermop> i want pm to just take the trolleybi and roll them into ogfx+ someday
21:52:06 <andythenorth> no automatic cargo graphics for you then :)
21:52:06 <supermop> there would be a lot id do different if i was working from whole cloth
21:52:19 <andythenorth> seems RH the loading speed is traded against weight
21:52:22 <andythenorth> rather than cost
21:52:22 <supermop> andythenorth happy to steal magic if i can
21:52:52 <supermop> like, i wouldn't make 40 pax trolley buses if i was making a supermop+ RVs
21:53:19 <supermop> nor would every RV be rigid body, .5 TL
21:55:21 <supermop> do people pay attention to that>
21:55:56 <andythenorth> they have no way of knowing about it
21:56:03 <andythenorth> I apply it to some vehicles anyway
21:56:38 <supermop> more doors etc on side to load cargo faster could be traded off with cost or weight or speed i guess
21:57:15 <supermop> but idk what circumstances would make someone choose the fast vs slow loading then
21:58:20 <andythenorth> fast loading = high decay
21:58:27 <andythenorth> slow loading = low decay
21:58:30 <supermop> the trolley busses already have more HP, and less running cost than diesel trucks, so don't want to split too many more hairs there
21:58:31 <andythenorth> is how I do it for buses
21:58:46 <supermop> bus is straightforward
21:59:11 <andythenorth> as far as possible I try and make the choice of vehicle about how it looks
21:59:20 <andythenorth> ottd is a piss-poor economic simulator
21:59:34 <andythenorth> but is very nice ‘watch the pixels’ move simulator
22:00:10 <supermop> greyhound has only one door but goes fast and is tolerable for 4 hours, city bus has 2 wider doors, a low floor, but is slow and makes you sick in 5 minutes
22:00:36 <andythenorth> same for commuter ferry versus overnight ferry
22:00:43 <supermop> crate of newspapers probably doesn't care what it is in
22:01:03 <andythenorth> decay on freight is only for refrigerated cargo
22:01:35 <supermop> fwiw i see fish delivered on flatbeds on my block every morning
22:01:57 <supermop> blue plastic tank pallets
22:02:49 <supermop> so weight is high and capacity is low, but the fish are still swiming so they don't mind the lack of refridgeration
22:06:07 <supermop> flatbed, open truck, reefer, box truck, mail truck,
22:06:17 <supermop> guess can add tanker and hopper
22:06:29 <supermop> that should be enough
22:08:55 <supermop> really the only point of this set is "here is something that uses ELRD" , "someone else make something better"
22:08:58 <andythenorth> I did dump truck
22:09:29 <supermop> dump truck seems neat for electrified dirt road
22:16:14 <andythenorth> V453000: you have engines with wagons attached :o
22:34:50 <supermop> hmm i feel like i should get rid of this big grey band on the tankers
22:39:53 <quiznilo> I worry about making a 4.04 length train, that shows as 4.0 in the depot, but still loads and unloads super slow on 4 length platforms
22:40:58 <Eddi|zuHause> train length unit is 1/16
22:41:28 <quiznilo> so this won't happen?
22:41:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so 4.0625 is the next step after 4.0
22:42:04 <quiznilo> well, does train length round or just some kind of integer cut-off?
22:43:30 <andythenorth> ha funny how the cycle goes
22:43:48 <andythenorth> now I’m playing with NARS 2, I want the FIRS station rating hack back :P
22:43:53 <andythenorth> I can’t afford enough trains
22:44:04 <andythenorth> to always have one waiting
22:44:29 <quiznilo> what is that station rating hack?
22:45:03 <andythenorth> reduces penalty for not picking up
22:45:10 <andythenorth> or sets station rating to 100%
22:52:43 <quiznilo> I propose changing departure order in depots from FILO to FIFO
22:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure it's neither of those
22:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> most likely it's based on vehicle ID
22:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so if vehicles 2,5,10 and 12 are in the depot, and vehicle 8 leaves the block to make the depot exit free, then vehicle 10 will leave next
22:54:59 <quiznilo> for some reason, I expect it to behave like station loading does
22:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if that applies to depots, but for signals it also once depended on acceleration, so whichever vehicle got from speed 0 to the next vehicle step first would move
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23:04:01 <supermop> got 1 px of clear space between tank and chassis to see road
23:04:06 <V453000> andythenorth: that's just an extreme measure to make all purchaseable units exactly 16/8
23:04:12 <V453000> buying things per tile is nice for nuts
23:04:20 <supermop> not sure if that's going to look ok
23:04:28 <V453000> but the configurability can suck if you have different visuals for similar wagon
23:08:59 <supermop> andythenorth: in hog/horse, did stock wagons etc end up as 1st cc or as some kind of brown?
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23:15:19 <andythenorth> supermop: CC in hog, grey in horse
23:15:22 <andythenorth> but horse is wrong
23:21:38 <andythenorth> Hunting Camp and Herding Coop are same length in both words
23:21:42 <andythenorth> and same start and end letters
23:21:49 <andythenorth> chances of that, statistically?
23:22:14 * andythenorth renamed an industry
23:23:44 <supermop> andythenorth callback to set name based on build year
23:24:05 <supermop> in 0 CE its a hunting camp, in 2000 its a herding coop
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