IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-04-12
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10:39:27 <Wolf01> "If we would bundle tram set X with the program by default, we'd disturb that competition." Like Internet Explorer XD
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11:10:30 <Arveen2> bundle ottd with that browser choice application
11:11:47 <__ln__> did you mean: tram choice application
11:12:32 <Wolf01> We should remove all vehicles too, IIRC you can already decide which baseset to use when you install the game, it shouldn't be hard to have a selection of the most valid sets to start playing
11:14:22 <Wolf01> I think Albert and Eddi are right, we need a sort of steam workshop in bananas with the ability to upvote the content, maybe an usage counter too
11:15:17 <Wolf01> I could even give a hand
11:16:03 <crem> But don't one have to make sure that add-ons are compatible?
11:16:18 <Wolf01> That's why we need curators too
11:18:19 <Arveen2> usage counter is nice. i love stats
11:19:29 <Wolf01> The download count doesn't really count... I have stuff downloaded only because I tried one savegame once
11:20:46 <Wolf01> We have the grfs list used by servers, it could be a good way to check what are the most used ones
11:23:33 <Wolf01> Yeah, my scenario is the 6th most downloaded... I should update the link to point to a forum topic as I don't have anymore the website
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16:01:57 <andythenorth> ach, FIRS Extreme
16:04:23 <Alberth> looks messy indeed, what's the problem?
16:05:21 <ST2> should be called FIRS Spaghetti, instead of Extreme - but looks good for me :)
16:06:46 <Alberth> ha, nice name, I was thinking "FIRS Everything", but Spaghetti is nicer
16:07:03 <Wolf01> Try to untangle it, if you manage to do it then it's a valid map
16:07:14 <andythenorth> specifically the role of Chemicals and Manufacturing Supplies are…blah
16:07:21 <andythenorth> they’re under-supplied and tedious
16:07:23 <Alberth> nah, just let BB tell you what to do
16:07:43 * andythenorth considers starting with a clean white sheet of paper
16:07:44 <Alberth> you're not trying to make it playable are you?
16:07:55 <andythenorth> I’m wondering if it could have been done better :P
16:08:05 <andythenorth> why ‘fibre crops’ but not ‘salt’?
16:08:11 <andythenorth> why ‘wool’, but not ‘vehicles’?
16:08:44 <andythenorth> also, somewhat, industries I wanted to draw
16:09:04 <andythenorth> Sugar Beet is definitely only there because I wanted to draw the beet factory
16:09:07 <ST2> dnt change it - currently BTPro has 2 servers using FIRS Extreme and it's funny to see the "brain knots" on new players ^^
16:09:39 <andythenorth> this is a classic ‘swallowed a spider’ problem
16:09:54 <andythenorth> I want to adjust the fertiliser plant to have a second input
16:10:06 <andythenorth> but then everything else makes no sense
16:11:05 <andythenorth> salt is one of the world’s major cargos
16:11:10 <andythenorth> historically, and still now
16:11:23 <andythenorth> also it would be white, which is different to other colours
16:11:29 <Alberth> just add it, or is there no room?
16:11:53 <andythenorth> salt mine -> salt?
16:12:22 <andythenorth> salt -> fertiliser plant -> fmsp and ensp (explosives)
16:12:25 <Alberth> doesn't it get harvested from evaporating salt water as well?
16:12:33 <andythenorth> salt works -> salt?
16:13:02 <Alberth> either will work, but it may be nicely different graphically
16:13:12 <andythenorth> salt -> chemical plant -> chemicals?
16:13:27 <andythenorth> salt -> chemical plant -> manufacturing supplies?
16:13:53 <Alberth> latter looks more feasible
16:14:22 <andythenorth> bundling all chemicals together in Extreme was probably a mistake :)
16:14:25 <Wolf01> I should do an economy by myself too
16:14:35 <andythenorth> Wolf01: try and make a giant Extreme 2 :P
16:14:46 <andythenorth> I’m not sure what the goal of it is really
16:15:04 <Alberth> there is none, just dumping al together
16:15:22 <Alberth> if you're lucky, there are transport options
16:15:35 <Wolf01> [colour] powder->[colour] cubes->mixed products, mixed byproducts->consumer products
16:16:14 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I do even consider that to some extent now :P
16:16:18 <andythenorth> when making new economies
16:16:32 <andythenorth> pipe is in steeltown just for cargo sprites
16:16:43 <andythenorth> sulphur was quite appealing to add too, because bright yellow
16:16:56 <supermop> andythenorth: pre 1600 or so you could have an economy where the only industrial scale cargo to be transported is "salt -> towns"
16:17:12 <andythenorth> I have considered a pre-industrial economy
16:17:18 <andythenorth> but tbh, someone else could fork FIRS to do that
16:17:24 <andythenorth> FIRS forks are now pretty proven
16:17:26 <supermop> salt, maybe salt cod
16:17:26 <Wolf01> I would like to do something like big pharma
16:17:39 <Alberth> or make an early economy
16:17:47 <Wolf01> But game doesn't support that :(
16:17:47 <andythenorth> supermop: I considered adding saltfish stuff for scandinavia
16:18:00 <supermop> Wolf01: fine chemicals are neat, but the pills might be a bit boring to transport
16:19:15 <supermop> Alberth: i guess the problem is when you get to 2100 and are bored of still running the same salt, fish, and wood in your little haneseatic league
16:19:44 <andythenorth> coal tar -> paracetamol -> towns
16:19:57 <Alberth> you do? I usually start in 1920-1930, and don't even make 2000, generally
16:20:22 <Alberth> at some point, most industries are connected, and it's done for me
16:20:22 <Wolf01> Me too... I usually get bored way before 2000
16:20:34 <supermop> that will really give the various english translators some work, andythenorth
16:20:46 <Wolf01> But I start in 1850 with horses and FF to ~1900
16:20:47 <Alberth> it would need a GS to stirr things up, I guess
16:20:59 <supermop> aus calls it something else entirely from you or me
16:21:11 <supermop> Alberth: i rarely play more than 30 years
16:21:48 <Alberth> or more dense industries :p
16:22:02 <supermop> but i guess the most salient property of 'pre-industrial' economies is that they are pre-industrial
16:22:13 <andythenorth> one would think so :P
16:22:22 <supermop> that is, fundamentally different, cargoes etc
16:22:55 <andythenorth> ach, I should just finish what I have and do a FIRS 3 :)
16:23:00 <andythenorth> the rest can wait until v4 or so
16:23:24 <supermop> which suggests that it might be interesting to play through that paradigm shift, which occurred in different ways and times in different areas
16:24:27 <Alberth> but you need industries that really do close
16:24:35 <Alberth> even if you serve them
16:24:43 <andythenorth> @calc 5488 - 5052
16:24:49 <andythenorth> lots of revs since last FIRS release
16:25:16 <supermop> "i send salt on barges to a ship, and the ship brings back cloth' to 'i send specialized electronics by air and receive metal alloys by electric train'
16:25:55 <andythenorth> to do it well, needs more than 32 cargos imho
16:26:04 <supermop> could make for more interesting game than "i send iron ore by slow train' to 'i send more iron ore by a faster train'
16:26:04 <andythenorth> with ability to deprecate / introduce cargos
16:27:28 <supermop> as is now whether you play 20 or 1000 years, you basically do A->B, with capacity growing every decade until new vehicles run out
16:28:30 <supermop> maybe you could do a->b for 50 years but then suddenly you are trying to do C<-D and X->Y->Z by totally new means
16:28:49 <Alberth> increasing transport is simple upgrading
16:29:13 <Alberth> openttd supports that out of the box
16:29:38 <supermop> changing what you need to transport over time is what would be new
16:30:06 <Alberth> or change location of resources
16:30:23 <Alberth> like the oil in temperate
16:31:11 <andythenorth> newgrf is no good at it
16:31:46 <Alberth> it can be done, it fully controls closing and opening new industries
16:33:03 <Alberth> ie suppose you run one economy for 50 years, then switch off the probabilities, and turn on probabilities of industries of another economy
16:33:33 <Alberth> it also needs closing down of "old" industries, but that could be coded in NewGRF too, I think
16:34:22 <andythenorth> newgrf can do it
16:34:41 <andythenorth> it’s just not able to provide any messages, or make any nice judgements about the state of the map
16:35:22 <Alberth> yep, it's very disruptive :)
16:35:58 <peter1138> probably meant to be game-script type stuff?
16:36:54 <Alberth> until you can tell industries what to do, it doesn't quite work
16:37:23 <peter1138> i've never looked into what GS is capable of
16:38:20 <Alberth> newgrf has no access point for giving information about such things to industries
16:39:21 <supermop> i guess you also need something like mines running out
16:39:30 <Alberth> it's still NewGRF decides all, except it's generally clueless due to lack of information, and it also has no means to obtain that global information
16:39:48 <supermop> otherwise if you build a salt mine empire in 1000 CE most of the mines will never close
16:40:22 <supermop> unless gs somehow makes salt no longer profitable to transport at a certain time
16:40:31 <supermop> which doesn't really make sense
16:40:47 <Alberth> that's another point, gs can't control prices of transport
16:40:54 <supermop> salt still earns money, just not enough to fight wars over
16:41:25 <supermop> thats another problem with early transport
16:42:05 <supermop> if it is some how profitable to carry passengers from town to town in a horse carriage in 1500, it will still be profitable in 2500
16:42:21 <Alberth> I did think of setting transport prices based on source/destinations, and perhaps players
16:42:39 <Alberth> not so much based on type of cargo and year, but it could make sense
16:42:57 <supermop> some smarter type of inflation could work
16:43:31 <supermop> separate running costs into two parts, one could grow with inflation, the other is static?
16:43:35 <Alberth> making it scriptable has a much larger use
16:44:12 <andythenorth> supply / demand economy
16:44:13 <supermop> so the steam locomotive is 'cheaper' to run when the wages for the three men in the cab are low
16:44:17 <andythenorth> one town pays more than another
16:44:49 <Alberth> ie everything you do in the program is mostly global for the world, which means gameplay is the same everywhere on the map
16:46:40 <Alberth> that makes it eg feasible to play at 4096x4096, and use only 256x256 of that
16:47:04 <Alberth> and it doesn't matter where that 256x256 is
16:48:30 <Alberth> maybe the script should also be allowed to control the running cost factor or so
16:49:09 <Alberth> and probably engine, although then it becomes newgrf specific very quickly
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17:05:53 <peter1138> Alberth, maybe that isn't a problem though
17:07:54 <supermop> i guess i envision spilting running cost into parts, A, B, maybe C, and then each vehicle is defined as having a certain amount of each
17:08:28 <supermop> then game or GS or newgrf could globally say, increase part A by 2% per year
17:08:43 <supermop> or decrease part B by 1%
17:09:01 <supermop> or randomly fluctuate
17:09:55 <supermop> maybe an old locomotive has 1000 units of A and 20 of B
17:10:33 <supermop> but in 1860, A=1 and b=50
17:11:01 <supermop> maybe in 1960, A=10 and b=60
17:12:32 <supermop> a boring newgrf GS would keep all parts static, or increase them uniformly, and an exotic one would vary them by odd amounts for obscure reasons
17:13:49 <supermop> basically trying to solve the (maybe not real problem) of a horse and wagon is much cheaper to run than a truck in 1900, but is much more expensive to run than a truck in 2000
17:14:37 <supermop> same with sailboats vs steamships, or steam locomotives vs diesels
17:15:18 <supermop> or a diesel bus vs a super-capacitor bus
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17:19:47 <Wolf01> A/B/C => Fuel cost/spare parts/maintainance guys
17:20:49 <supermop> Wolf01: i was thinking you'd do Mechanical/labor
17:21:52 <supermop> fuel probably goes slowly down over time (diesel would be pretty expensive in 0CE) while labor goes up
17:22:12 <supermop> mechanical could be static, or go slowly down or up
17:23:33 <supermop> maybe in 1940 the Diesel has more mechanical cost, similar fuel cost, and less labor costs than the steam locomotive
17:24:40 <supermop> but over the next 20 years, labor get proportionally more expensive, so even if the steam loco is mechanically simpler than the diesel, it cost more because it takes more people to run it
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17:30:29 <supermop> you don't really even need to name the parts though
17:30:42 <supermop> or even separate them
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19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27854 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt spanish.txt) (2017-04-12 19:45:37 +0200 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> spanish: 30 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> czech: 18 changes by djst
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20:06:44 <quiznilo> perhaps some kind of dependency system
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21:57:22 <Wolf01> High on ginger ale again wooooo!!!
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22:47:28 <supermop> Wolf01: how do you manage that
22:55:07 <supermop> nice when i am queezy
22:56:34 <Wolf01> The nice thing is that I don't even like ginger, but I always eat it when I find it in various forms
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22:58:29 <supermop> we have candied ginger
22:58:43 <Wolf01> Yeah, I have a packet of that too
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