IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-04-09
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00:42:23 <_dp_> oh, almost missed codejam %)
00:42:55 <_dp_> guess merging 1.7.0 can wait some more xD
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02:15:04 <FLHerne> (not for very long, it's the morning now)
02:35:50 <DannyK_> FLHerne: could you please take a look at my openttd pic?
02:36:41 <FLHerne> | Don't ask to ask, just ask | is in the topic
02:37:05 <FLHerne> Same reason as before
02:37:43 <FLHerne> To a block signal, any area of track that's joined together and not separated by signals is a block
02:39:02 <FLHerne> The area you've marked is all joined together (via the junctions at each ends) without going through a signal
02:39:27 <DannyK_> FLHerne: So, if I create 3 or hundreds of parallel tracks, they will all light RED, right?
02:39:48 <FLHerne> DannyK_: If you arrange them like that, yes
02:40:27 <DannyK_> FLHerne: I think I'm starting to grasp it, finally!
02:40:39 <FLHerne> Remember, in some circumstances (and depending on settings) trains can reverse at various places
02:41:06 <FLHerne> Imagine a second train approaches the signal you've circled from the left
02:41:43 <FLHerne> Hm, not quite, in your case
02:42:37 <FLHerne> If a train with no length (:P) was allowed past that signal, it could reverse at the next signal (just past the junction) and then collide with the one that's already there
02:43:37 <FLHerne> If that next signal was a tile further along, it could actually happen with a real train (the signal calculations don't care about that corner case)
02:44:26 <FLHerne> If this sort of thing is causing you problems, try using path signals (the tall ones at the right of the signal toolbar)
02:44:57 <FLHerne> They're a bit cleverer and take into account where trains are actually going
02:45:59 <DannyK_> FLHerne: They work according to individual tracks, not blocks, right?
02:46:58 <DannyK_> FLHerne: Depots also divide the tracks into blocks, right?
02:49:18 <FLHerne> From the PoV of trains *leaving* the depot, they behave as if there was a path signal at the exit
02:49:46 <FLHerne> Otherwise, they don't really affect signalling at all
02:50:15 <FLHerne> (if there are multiple lines going in, they join on the tile in front of the depot, and form one block)
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12:00:56 <quiznilo> there are terabyte sound fonts that ship on external HDs
12:03:27 <quiznilo> the dude left anyway... *sigh*
12:05:21 <quiznilo> I need to figure out how to check when trains and cars are going to be available in newgfrs... it's 1909 and I need to know when I can transport steel at > 35mph
12:09:07 <quiznilo> oh... no steel in FIRS, I forgot
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12:29:13 <FLHerne> quiznilo: I don't think there's a way to check that in-game
12:29:36 <FLHerne> quiznilo: Also, it's randomized by up to a few years, so you can't look it up precisely ;-)
12:29:39 <quiznilo> yes, sadly. It's a moot point, because steel doesn't even exist in the game
12:30:07 <FLHerne> Well, "Metal" in FIRS is pretty much the same thing (produced by steel works, can be turned into goods among other things)?
12:32:31 <FLHerne> Also, yay, I finally have interconnected passenger services to every one of the 105 towns in my world
12:32:46 <FLHerne> Time to refocus on freight
12:32:50 <quiznilo> achievement unlocked
12:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i can never focus on freight
12:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> passengers are just so overwhelming
12:34:46 <FLHerne> There's a really handy patch that adds a multiplier for pax/mail volumes
12:35:28 <quiznilo> passengers is more money if done right... no pulling around empty trains
12:35:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but when i want to start a new game after a few years, i have to re-learn how to compile that patch in :p
12:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> earning money is not the problem
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12:36:23 <quiznilo> compile a patch in, that is
12:36:27 <FLHerne> quiznilo: If you fiddle about with station-refitting, you can load freight both ways ;-)
12:36:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is that with cargodist, you really have to make an effort to transport ALL the passengers
12:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> can't have them piling up at stations
12:36:50 <FLHerne> (although keeping it roughly balanced can be a pain)
12:37:06 <quiznilo> that's more of a possibility with FIRS, two way freight trains
12:37:53 <quiznilo> *adds another chemical ship*
12:38:51 <Samu> eua is provoking a war with north korea... ww3 starting soon :(
12:39:11 <Samu> who would have thought it would be trump and not hillary clinton
12:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> "The Rhine bridge in Wörth will be closed due to a demonstration against unnecessary closing of traffic infrastructure" how self-referential :p
12:41:54 <Samu> :( this europe is becoming 3rd world
13:16:13 <_dp_> quiznilo, you can cheat date into future and check intro dates
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14:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i unify the holy roman empire and get like 8 achivements simultaneously...
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15:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> more like half a year :p
15:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> they released like 3 major version updates inbetween
15:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> almost a year, i think
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16:30:00 <peter1138> wonder how long it sticks around if there's no track
16:30:19 <peter1138> it landed on the sea
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16:53:30 <_DannyK> Could someone please take a look at my gif and let me know if I understand the concept?
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16:59:45 <Alberth> double direction is quite error prone, and doesn't have much throughput, it's simpler and better to use uni-directional signals if you can
17:00:19 <Alberth> in particular with path signals :)
17:00:46 <_DannyK> Alberth: what are uni-directional signals? isn't that what I used on the gif?
17:01:17 <Alberth> uni-directional signals are signals that allow passage only from one side
17:01:42 <_DannyK> Alberth: Ah, one way, I suppose?
17:01:48 <Alberth> the gif shows bi-directional signals, trains can go through from either side
17:01:55 <_DannyK> Alberth: yes that's right
17:02:12 <Alberth> "one way" is used too for uni-directional :)
17:02:40 <_DannyK> Alberth: I wish there was option to enable visualisation of blocks during track design ...
17:03:39 <FLHerne> _DannyK: Just stop using block signals, then you don't have to worry about it ;-)
17:04:03 <_DannyK> FLHerne: hi, how are you? got some sleep? :)
17:04:38 <Alberth> In general, a block is either a simple straight stretch between two signals, or it's a junction "surrounded" by signals
17:04:39 <FLHerne> There are very few situations where block signals are actually better than path ones for achieving something
17:05:06 <FLHerne> (and those tend to be weird magic signal-logic that you probably don't want to bother with currently)
17:05:10 <_DannyK> FLHerne: I like to use them not only because they are from original TT, but also because I like to understand stuff thoroughly ...
17:05:41 <Alberth> so while the visualization may be of use in the beginning, you'll soon get the hang of it, and don't need it any more
17:06:07 <FLHerne> I just get worried about the perception that OTTD signalling is hard/buggy/inflexible/whatever
17:06:25 <FLHerne> Which some people seem to get
17:06:25 <Alberth> /me picks whatever :p
17:06:37 <_DannyK> FLHerne: I'd rather say, my mind is buggy/inflexible/whatever
17:07:07 <Samu> block signals vs junctions = random stuff
17:07:16 <Alberth> euhm, don't :p it's pure magic :p
17:07:25 <FLHerne> (taking the slightly odd block-size rules and doing something useful but very weird with them)
17:07:53 <Alberth> _DannyK: it might help to take this in small steps, do a limited number of signals and use them
17:08:26 <Alberth> you might run into some area where your signalling isn't enough, then extend
17:08:39 <Samu> i don't know how the white/yellow strip signs work
17:09:04 <Alberth> if you try to do all signals at the same time, it's harder
17:09:54 <Alberth> Samu: until you join openttdcoop, you don't need to :)
17:11:20 * FLHerne tends to throw away tidiness/efficiency of signalling away in favour of aesthetics anyway
17:28:51 <_DannyK> Alberth: what did you mean by saying that double direction signals don't have much troughput?
17:34:13 <peter1138> Samu, ship path caching
17:35:39 <Alberth> _DannyK: assume a single track that is used in both directions.
17:36:19 <Alberth> once a train enters that track from one side, it must go all the way to the other side before a train from the other side can use it
17:36:44 <Alberth> double direction signals can also cause deadlock
17:37:30 <peter1138> We should've gone through with the plan and removed block signals :p
17:37:34 <Alberth> if you put a double signal in the middle of a single track, both sides are "safe", so trains can enter from both sides upto the signal position
17:38:05 <Alberth> then however, neither train can go any further until the other train leaves
17:38:32 <Alberth> which never happens :p
17:39:18 <Alberth> wouldn't removal of block signals break all existing savegames ? :)
17:40:51 <Alberth> danny: in other words, double direction signal is quite useless
17:42:40 <_DannyK> Alberth: I understand, thank you for explaining
17:45:34 <Alberth> double direction path signal fixes the deadlock problem by giving one side priority
17:47:38 <_DannyK> Alberth: didn't know, thanks
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17:48:17 <Alberth> double direction path signal is not better in throughput, so still rarely used
17:48:18 <Samu> i'm not doing anything regarding ship path caching :(
17:48:44 <Alberth> standard solution is to make a dedicated track for each direction of traffic, and then you're done
17:49:06 <Alberth> (until you have so much traffic it won't fit at a single line :p )
17:49:48 <_DannyK> Alberth: and then ... my exotic junction nightmare begins
17:50:00 <Alberth> if you play with breakdown enabled, you reach that point fairly quickly
17:50:43 <Alberth> junctions aren't very difficult wrt signalling, you just have a lot of tracks to deal with
17:51:27 <Alberth> uni-directional tracks are the simplest
17:51:52 <Alberth> simplest junction is to connect all incoming lines at one point, and from there go to all outgoing lines
17:52:17 <Alberth> works, but you get all traffic at that merged track, and it runs full quickly
17:52:52 <Alberth> so instead, for each incoming line, split traffic towards all outgoing directions
17:53:24 <Alberth> that scales much better, but had a lot of intermediate tracks
17:53:43 <_DannyK> Alberth: and it took one sentence to clear it up ... right there at wiki ... "Any and all track tiles physically reachable from the signal up to the next signal on that track are counted as the same block, regardless if there are multiple branches."
17:54:19 <Alberth> it's even more than physically reachable
17:54:28 <Alberth> it just needs "connected"
17:54:40 <Alberth> ie an X cross is also 1 block
17:55:27 <Alberth> even though a train can only go the the opposite end, and not to both orthogonal directions
17:58:51 <Alberth> but it's good that you try to improve it, we have no idea what part is hard to understand
17:59:56 <_DannyK> Alberth: maybe it's just that this big stupidity of mine is hard to come by lol
18:00:31 <Alberth> don't think so, signalling is generally considered difficult for some reason
18:00:54 <Alberth> I can't read understand why, sadly
18:01:52 <_DannyK> Alberth: probably because you quickly understood the principle behind it
18:02:40 <_DannyK> Alberth: and also because I'm most likely overthinking it, instead of playing by trial and error
18:03:28 <Alberth> there isn't much to think, the game just refuses to let a train go through :p
18:04:50 <Alberth> if you don't belief the game, press "ignore red signal", and perhaps stuff crashes :p
18:05:12 <_DannyK> Alberth: I only hope you are equipped with enough patience to help me understand all the confusions I'm going to have later on ... :)
18:05:28 <Alberth> I get my most crashes by changing signalling while trains use the track :p
18:06:00 <_DannyK> Alberth: haha, so you learn the hard way if the new design works or not
18:07:17 <Alberth> oh, it always works, but for good performance, the signals need to be at the right spot, so after changing track layout, they must usually move
18:07:41 <Alberth> if you make an error while juggling signals, yep, trains do crash :p
18:08:20 <Alberth> but services cannot be stopped! :D
18:10:14 <Alberth> safest is to first reroute trains around the work area, then do big rework, and then let the trains use it
18:10:36 <Alberth> sometimes however, there is no space for rerouting
18:16:45 <Alberth> danny: just ignore all the combo-signals, they are obsolete, unless you want to do openttdcoop magic
18:17:47 <peter1138> path signals all the way
18:18:20 <_DannyK> I've heard they are good, but also slow down the game, true or false?
18:18:28 <peter1138> and if we ever integrate signal restrictions then all that complex mumbo jumbo can be replaced with a little bit of code
18:18:53 <peter1138> everyone who ever said it slows down the game never provided any proof, as far as i know
18:19:20 <peter1138> and it's entirely possible that originally it meant slows down the flow of trains
18:20:04 <Alberth> next trains do wait until the block is empty, for competing tracks
18:21:28 <Alberth> likely, when the previous train leaves the block, its route becomes unfavorable due to being in use by that previous train
18:22:16 <Alberth> I don't understand why it doesn't make that decision earlier
18:25:20 <Alberth> in one game, I switched from path signals to combo signals, for this reason
18:25:36 <Alberth> track was too busy to have this delay
18:26:01 <Samu> openttdcoop game requires 1.7.0-RC1
18:26:54 <Alberth> or do you mean in MP ?
18:28:32 <peter1138> hmm, probably ought to stock up the fridge with b33r
18:28:55 <Alberth> sounds like a good idea for the next long weekend
18:28:56 <peter1138> seems my legs don't want to work though :(
18:29:13 <Alberth> b33r promise doesn't help?
18:34:05 <peter1138> it's not just laziness, they ache quite a bit
18:34:47 <peter1138> it's this lovely weather we're having
18:34:58 <peter1138> it made me do 2 days of hard riding
18:44:41 <supermop_home> you can try something like that to compare
18:44:49 <supermop_home> and then saturate it with trains
18:46:02 <_DannyK> supermop_home: thank you I will play with it
18:46:22 <supermop_home> or at least see that for making a basic line or terminus, PBS is much easier to set up
18:47:05 <supermop_home> in that instance, the top two tracks are pbs, the bottom two are block, with basic block on the line and entry/exit signals at the termini
18:47:53 <supermop_home> the more junctions or crossovers you add, the worse the block line will perform, and you'll need to add flying junctions, etc sooner
18:49:53 <supermop_home> if the line is simple enough block is only slightly worse than PBS, but as it gets busier or more complex, PBS helps more
18:50:44 <supermop_home> if you aren't doing anything co-op like, like making circuits out of track, using pbs everywhere works great
18:51:12 <supermop_home> also i cant believe that demonstration I built is profitable
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27850 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt spanish_MX.txt) (2017-04-09 19:45:38 +0200 )
19:45:51 <DorpsGek> korean: 3 changes by telk5093
19:45:52 <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 18 changes by Absay
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20:23:30 <_dp_> hmm... 1.7 seems to work with 1.6.1 servers just fine
20:23:53 <_dp_> are there really no changes at all?
20:24:02 <peter1138> It should not connect.
20:26:09 <_dp_> normally it would desync pretty fast
20:26:48 <peter1138> I recommend reading the change log. That would pretty conclusively show you that there certainly were changes.
20:26:58 <peter1138> Why would there be a release with no changes...
20:28:06 <_dp_> I'm reading it and so far don't see anything that affects game mechanics
20:31:41 <_dp_> aside from newgrf stuff that I don't understand I see only two changes that can desync
20:32:00 <LordAro> not everything is listed in the changelog
20:32:01 <peter1138> 19:23 < _dp_> are there really no changes at all?
20:32:38 <LordAro> but... as long as you understand what you're doing is a Bad Thing(tm) and don't report any issues you have, i guess you're free to do whatever you want
20:33:43 <_dp_> I'm thinking of adding small red "connect anyway" button somewhere
20:35:26 <LordAro> there's no way that will ever be a thing
20:38:08 <_dp_> well, I'm not suggesting to add it to vanilla openttd ;)
20:38:40 <LordAro> i'd suggest it would be a very bad idea to publish such a patch anywhere
20:38:43 <peter1138> I recommend just using 1.6.1 to connect to 1.6.1
20:43:40 <_dp_> having multiple versions is a pain in the ass
20:49:19 <_dp_> idk, I often find myself in a situation when I have multiple client none of which I can use
20:49:42 <_dp_> because my working copy is broken, reserve is wrong version and vanilla is freaking useless
20:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> in that case it's probably better for everyone else if you stopped playing
20:51:15 <peter1138> there's never any changes in it!
21:03:30 <_dp_> realistic acceleration by default
21:03:34 <peter1138> 19:23 < _dp_> are there really no changes at all?
21:03:37 <_dp_> clearly worth a major version! :p
21:04:21 <_dp_> > _dp_> hmm... 1.7 seems to work with 1.6.1 servers just fine
21:06:51 <Rubidium> does 1.6.1 (without version check) work on 1.7 servers?
21:07:11 <_dp_> Rubidium, yeah, I couldn't make it desync
21:07:20 <_dp_> guess with trams or smth it will
21:07:41 <frosch123> the same probably holds if you join a 1.0 server
21:07:55 <_dp_> frosch123, nope, it usually desyncs pretty fast
21:08:33 * Rubidium finds it interesting that a 1.7 savegame loads in 1.6
21:08:58 <_dp_> for what I saw in changelog unless you do some tricky stuff with canals or secondary road types it's perfectly synced
21:09:16 <frosch123> 1.6/1.7 should desync on cdist
21:09:29 <peter1138> frosch123, it can't, there are no changes
21:09:49 <frosch123> i remember changing the name
21:10:16 <peter1138> we should allow changing newgrfs in game too
21:10:19 <peter1138> that never causes issues
21:10:54 <frosch123> Rubidium: they probably commented out savegame conversion
21:10:59 <Wolf01> We should disable the version check and add a warning with "please don't do stuff which might cause desync"
21:11:41 <peter1138> Wolf01, but there was really no changes at all. except at least two. but no changes.
21:12:27 <Wolf01> That's even better, you might craft specific warnings against the server version
21:13:06 <peter1138> _dp_, what did you have to do to make 1.6.1 connect to 1.7 servers then?
21:13:06 <Wolf01> "Please don't do these 2 things: blah blah"
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21:14:06 <_dp_> peter1138, actually in my case I didn't have to do anything, I just forgot to update rev.cpp :p
21:14:29 <Wolf01> How do you forget to update one file?
21:15:10 <_dp_> Wolf01, it's not part of codebase since it's generated automatically
21:15:24 <_dp_> but I had that generation disabled ofc
21:15:46 <frosch123> ok, so dp's 1.6 client was actually a 1.7 client
21:15:56 <frosch123> he just changed the displayed version to 1.6
21:17:52 <peter1138> so a version which claims to be 1.6 but is actual 1.7 has no changes from 1.7. gotcha.
21:18:33 <_dp_> peter1138, no changes from 1.8
21:19:14 <Wolf01> Does it still have canals?
21:19:37 <_dp_> dunno, just no changes from it :p
21:19:51 <Wolf01> So canal removal will fail :(
21:20:24 * peter1138 attempts to decipher r27758
21:20:34 <peter1138> although i guess it is a blank commit as there are no changes, really.
21:24:54 <peter1138> i don't see how it's meant to work as TAB_SIZE_BITS is not changed and it's still in bits 11-15, i think
21:26:40 <frosch123> TAB_SIZE only applies to the first 32 tabs
21:26:57 <frosch123> then comes a gamescript tab, which is way larger, and then a newgrf tab which is even more larger
21:28:56 <frosch123> the other important part ist that MakeStringId contains a "+" instead of a "|"
21:38:20 <_dp_> oh, I know, I'll make it so it only ignores version if Ctrl is pressed
21:38:26 <_dp_> nobody will ever find it xD
21:39:01 <peter1138> Put it on shift-click
21:39:07 <peter1138> To estimate the cost of joining with the wrong version
21:57:12 <peter1138> Everyone is alive, apparently. Phew.
21:57:33 <peter1138> ok so grf debug output isn't changed
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22:04:14 <Wolf01> Some say the breaks of the train was malfunctioning.
22:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> when i hear "brakes malfunctioning" i always assume that the valve between engine and wagons wasn't opened, and they also didn't proerly check it
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22:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> then, obviously, when the driver hits the brakes, only the engine's brakes will engage, and none of the wagons' brakes
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23:28:28 <glx> I though trains had brakes on by default
23:29:00 <Wolf01> But if you can't drop the pressure from the engine...
23:29:59 <Wolf01> TBH, how they did stop at the last station with broken brakes?
23:44:38 <quiznilo> what happened to all the fences around my track, it's all gone!
23:44:51 <quiznilo> transparency opts look fine
23:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> some newgrf you loaded?
23:45:21 <quiznilo> possibly, but it was showing fences before
23:45:36 <Wolf01> We succesfully removed something without knowing?
23:45:37 <Eddi|zuHause> did you place something next to the tracks?
23:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> did you press X?
23:45:51 <quiznilo> this is across the entire map, no fences
23:46:08 <quiznilo> no, it isn't transparency or transparency opts, checked those
23:46:14 <peter1138> quiznilo, options -> full detail
23:46:48 <quiznilo> I unticked that for performance reasons, and full animation
23:46:49 <peter1138> more than just fences
23:46:55 <Wolf01> [23:45:02] <Wolf01> Disabled full detail? <-
23:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it hides sprites that have no gameplay relevance
23:46:59 <quiznilo> but the fences are more than full detail
23:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> like... fences...
23:47:29 <quiznilo> fences aren't a 'detail'!
23:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and the effect on performance is probably negligible
23:48:04 <quiznilo> you wouldn't say that if you were at risk of trying to connect to your opponent's track
23:48:45 <quiznilo> the fences are how you can see at a glance if it's your track or your opponent's track
23:49:35 <Wolf01> There are games other than coop ones?
23:49:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can also find that out with the ? tool
23:50:27 <quiznilo> ottd, eve, everywhere
23:51:25 <quiznilo> I did learn today that you can't blow up your opponent's statues
23:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it's a setting that just always was there
23:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably pointless, but nobody wants to touch it
23:51:59 <Wolf01> I'm not really into pvp, I suck :P
23:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried pvp in path of exile once... you always get paired with someone 20 levels above you, who instantly mauls you
23:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and even if they were same level, they usually have better gear and still instantly maul you
23:56:43 <quiznilo> well, I like the pvp that isn't like that
23:56:56 <Wolf01> I got beaten down by people 20 levels below me
23:57:34 <Wolf01> I have a *bad* memory of player killers in diablo 1
23:58:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r27851 /trunk/src (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h) (2017-04-09 23:58:07 +0200 )
23:58:14 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6555]: StringID truncation to 16 bits broke string remapping test.
23:59:36 <Wolf01> I told you to remove canals
continue to next day ⏵
