IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-04-08
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08:51:22 <peter1138> bugging me that water tiles next to the coast all dead-end onto the coast
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09:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's because coast tiles all register as water tiles
09:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so the water tile thinks it's adjacent to another water tile, and thus allows the trackbits
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09:35:42 <peter1138> no, water tiles don't do any adjacency checks
09:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause> really? i thought that was a thing... either in the pathfinder's follow track function, or in the ship's enter tile function
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14:35:15 <quiznilo> so, I'm trying to understand production at Bulk Terminals with FIRS
14:36:21 <quiznilo> it looks like it doesn't matter how much inputs you send it, it generates the same amounts month by month, beyond the 'normal/enhanced/gung-ho' levels
14:36:42 <Alberth> yep, as with other FIRS industries
14:37:05 <Alberth> hmm, really the same eh?
14:37:15 <quiznilo> so beyond a certain level, it's 'wasteful' to send more to it, if you want more output
14:37:57 <quiznilo> and generates farm supplies and chemicals
14:38:07 <quiznilo> and its operating at 'gung-ho' level
14:38:46 <Alberth> and monthly output at the industry window is not going up?
14:39:12 <quiznilo> and I'm really juicing it
14:39:13 <Alberth> ie there is a difference between what you get in the trains, and what the industry produces
14:39:17 <quiznilo> it looks like a primary
14:40:07 <Alberth> that concept is very blurred in FIRS, pretty much anything produces stuff
14:40:39 <quiznilo> yeah, it's very circular
14:40:42 <Alberth> you could wait for andythenorth here, he should know
14:40:59 <Alberth> or post a question in the forum
14:41:32 <Alberth> be sure to mention a version, there are a zillion different FIRS versions, and they tend to change cargoes :)
14:42:03 <Alberth> personally, I don't aim to maximize production, so I never ran into your problem
14:42:34 <Alberth> can't you fund a new terminal for the additional cargo that you have?
14:43:19 <Alberth> can't use the same station as the other terminal, each industry needs its own delivery station
14:44:11 <Alberth> farm suplies may be a reason why it doesn't go up
14:44:14 <quiznilo> firs tends to generate giant amounts of little-used track and stations
14:44:36 <Alberth> the entire idea is that these are limited
14:44:44 <quiznilo> bulk terms say they take food and clay, and that's it
14:45:25 <Alberth> it changes per version and economy :p
14:45:39 <quiznilo> they generate farm supplies, which I take... 162/month, and never higher
14:46:30 <Alberth> yeah, as I said, it may be intentional to limit supplies production, but I don't know
14:47:05 <quiznilo> yeah, it looks like a primary industry, I expected proportional output
14:47:56 <quiznilo> I'm getting the income from bringing all this stuff here
14:48:40 <Alberth> GRF industries have full control over how production scales with input, basically it can do anything
14:49:44 <quiznilo> well, I'm done for today, have to work
14:49:46 <Alberth> I usually can't be bothered to do supplies, by the time I have most connections, I am bored of the game :)
15:32:42 * frosch123 discovered pyspread
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15:41:13 <Eddi|zuHause> what does that do?
15:45:04 <Alberth> spreading itself over all computers
15:45:23 <Alberth> aka distributed-processing
15:45:43 <Alberth> andy used it for a while at least
15:46:28 <frosch123> it's a spreadsheet application, but with python types and syntax
15:48:18 <frosch123> but i would totally expect andy to build a cross-computer fork-bomb
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16:18:30 <Alberth> ha, it was "spread", it's still on the python.org wiki, but the link is dead
16:26:21 <peter1138> Whew, that was a ride & a half
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17:39:50 <DannyK_> I think I have found a bug in OpenTTD
17:40:30 <DannyK_> Could someone take a look?
17:47:35 <FLHerne> DannyK_: What bug have you found?
17:48:03 <DannyK_> FLHerne: it's got to do with signals
17:48:53 <FLHerne> Ah, that's not a bug, that's just how path signals work
17:49:22 <DannyK_> And another one, when depot is disconnected:
17:49:27 <peter1138> yeah, it's in the same block
17:49:40 <FLHerne> Block signals are fairly stupid, they go red when anything is in the track region between them and the next signal
17:50:17 <peter1138> it's disconnected, of course it's green
17:50:31 <FLHerne> There are no signals on the depot loop, so both ends are in the same signal block
17:51:16 <FLHerne> Either put a signal on the loop, or use path signals before junctions
17:51:25 <peter1138> s/before junctions//
17:51:30 <FLHerne> (using path signals before junctions is usually simpler)
17:52:14 <FLHerne> peter1138: Some people get upset if you use path signals where they aren't needed
17:52:36 <peter1138> Yes. Some people voted Trump or for Brexit. Doesn't mean it's right.
17:52:40 <FLHerne> (they're a bit ugly and supposedly slow the server down a bit more)
17:53:05 <DannyK_> I don't really get why the 4th signal goes red and not the second one ... probably because I'm stupid lol
17:53:52 <peter1138> DannyK_, there's a direct loop of track, making it part of the block that the train is in.
17:55:01 <peter1138> 77mile/125km ride, tomorrow promises to be shorter.
17:55:42 <DannyK_> Still, don't get it, forgive me, I'm quite new to this ...
17:56:14 <FLHerne> DannyK_: Path signals (the tall ones) are intelligent, they work out the route the train needs to follow and reserve only that
17:56:53 <FLHerne> DannyK_: Block signals (the short ones you're using) are a bit stupid, they just check whether the block they're protecting has a train anywhere in it
17:57:44 <FLHerne> When the train goes past the first signal you've circled, the block I've marked in red has a train in it
17:58:14 <FLHerne> The other one you've circled is an entry to the same block, so it goes red
18:10:19 <quiznilo> those pulsating gifs
18:12:37 <quiznilo> DannyK_: you know what a 'block' of track is?
18:13:40 <DannyK_> quiznilo: a section between two signals?
18:14:05 <quiznilo> it's a contiguous section of track not interrupted by a signal
18:14:32 <quiznilo> can you see how that part of the track behind both red block signals constitutes a single block?
18:14:54 <quiznilo> so, when one signal goes red, the other will go red
18:15:11 <quiznilo> because the block becomes occupied by that train
18:19:29 <quiznilo> go into settings/Interface/Viewports and tick 'Show path reservations for tracks' to 'on'
18:19:40 <quiznilo> you'll get visual feedback as to what is happening
18:20:48 <Alberth> quiznilo: doesn't work usefully for block signals
18:22:03 <DannyK_> I wish there was a way to see how a track gets divided into blocks ...
18:22:07 <Alberth> DannyK_: is the section after the first signal, along the depot, upto the firfth signal (ie after the 4th signal) one block?
18:23:32 <quiznilo> is it interrupted by a signal at any point?
18:23:47 <quiznilo> along the path in front of the depot?
18:24:30 <DannyK_> quiznilo: Does the depot's inbuilt signal count?
18:26:07 <DannyK_> quiznilo: Then I don't think it is interrupted by any signal along the way up to the fourth signal
18:27:27 <Alberth> for a block protected by block-signals, all ingoing signals become red when a train enters, right?
18:27:59 <Alberth> so when the train pass the 1st signal, the 4th signal (another entry to the same block) also goes red
18:28:11 <peter1138> heh, still on this :p
18:28:39 <Alberth> response-time is somewhat slow :)
18:29:21 <quiznilo> signalling is fundamental
18:29:27 <quiznilo> it's important to understand it
18:30:32 <Alberth> it's also quite complicated if you don't see the principle
18:31:45 <quiznilo> it's very important, otherwise trains will crash
18:32:12 <Alberth> nah, 2nd train won't get out the depot :)
18:32:42 <Alberth> and I have seen people making tracks dedicated for each train :D
18:33:30 <Alberth> an insane amount of track of course, but it works
18:34:54 <DannyK_> Alberth: That's how I was years ago, before I got to give OpenTTD a try again yesterday and decided to understand signals once and for all ...
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18:39:11 <DannyK_> It may sound ridiculous, but grasping the signalling is harder for me than programming haha
18:39:41 <Alberth> I have seen people that can program struggle before, so yep
18:40:31 <quiznilo> if I weren't lazy, I could make some pngs that quite clearly illustrate what a 'block' is, and how the signals work around them
18:41:15 <Alberth> I would expect some signalling guides to exist at the web, as well as YT, imho
18:41:36 <DannyK_> quiznilo: I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who would've found them life-saving
18:44:18 <Alberth> the biggest mistake of a lot of guides is that they try to explain all signals, while the one-way path signals covers about 95% of your needs
18:44:47 <Alberth> the two-way path signal does the other 4.999%
18:44:48 <quiznilo> I don't like one-way path signallers... there is something wrong with them
18:44:52 <quiznilo> block signals forever
18:45:15 <Alberth> simple block signal covers about 80%
18:45:44 <DannyK_> I don't understand why it is the 4th signal that turns red (along with the 1st one) and not the 5th one, past that loop ...
18:45:44 <quiznilo> I use simple block signals 90% of the time, the rest of the time I use path signal
18:45:54 <Alberth> all the other weirdo combo signals do the other 20%
18:46:28 <quiznilo> one the train enter a block, any block, all the block signals at the entrance to that block will turn red
18:46:37 <Alberth> the latter are also useful for the remaining 0.001% with path signals
18:46:51 <quiznilo> they only allow 1 train at a time into a block, and as soon as a train enters, they all go red
18:46:51 <Alberth> hmm, let's make a set of pictures, one moment
18:47:10 <quiznilo> the 5th signal is an entry signal for the following (empty) block, and stays green
18:51:16 <quiznilo> https://www.flherne.uk/files/signals.png this is the key image. every different color is a different block of track... once the train enters the 'red' block, all the entry signals into the red block turn red, first and fourth signal. That fifth signal will turn red if a train enters the orange block of track
18:59:55 <Alberth> left-most picture, train could be there, with green signal for next block, suppose that signal stays green when 2nd train runs through 1st signal like in the middle picture. You could end up with the right-most picture if the second train goes along the depot
19:00:28 <Alberth> if the signal before the 1st train does not turn red, the first train could now enter the same block, and you would have a collision
19:00:52 <glx> it's due to the crossing, even if it's an unreachable path
19:04:43 <quiznilo> DannyK_: don't over-think it, it's simple, when a train is in a block, all block signals into that block will turn red
19:04:47 <quiznilo> are we beating a dead horse?
19:06:03 <quiznilo> anyone know about FIRS industries? Perhaps I should look at the source code.
19:06:27 <Alberth> then you need the correct revision :)
19:07:25 <quiznilo> a 'psd' file is a graphics file?
19:08:43 <Alberth> yes, it's not a source file at least
19:08:54 <Alberth> hmm, likely you won't even find the source
19:09:00 <Alberth> it's all python generated
19:09:08 <Alberth> what version do you have?
19:09:35 <quiznilo> whatever the in-game deal downloads
19:10:12 <Alberth> sheep_farm/sheep_farm.psd: Adobe Photoshop Image, 500 x 350, RGB, 3x 8-bit channels <-- yep, graphics file :)
19:11:27 <Alberth> let me see if I can get some source for you :)
19:12:04 <quiznilo> industry = IndustryPrimaryOrganic
19:12:50 <quiznilo> industry = IndustryPrimaryPort(id='bulk_terminal' aha! I knew it, it's a primary industry
19:16:28 <Alberth> generated parameterized nml code for the bulk terminal
19:20:47 <_dp_> that python-nml looks cool, does it exist as a separate module?
19:20:57 <quiznilo> what do I use to view a pnml file?
19:25:57 <Alberth> my *.pnml is not python, it's nml source code to be processed by cpp, the C pre-processor
19:26:50 <Alberth> although in the meantime, andy wrote code to generate nml by python, thus eliminating the cpp step
19:27:40 <Alberth> right, well, no idea, have a look in the repo
19:28:24 <_dp_> it seems to be part of firs right now
19:29:07 <_dp_> but would be nice if it could be used for writing other grfs too
19:34:19 <Alberth> it's fully tailored to firs
19:34:33 <quiznilo> it's a lot of work to make a program generic
19:34:49 <Alberth> if you write another industry set, bits may be re-usable
19:35:17 <Alberth> otherwise, it's probably just as fast to write your own template generator python code
19:35:53 <Alberth> ie use some templating library for python, hack a nml template, use python code to fill and generated all the templates, done
19:37:51 <_dp_> ye, already did smth like that
19:38:10 <_dp_> pretty basic though, mb I'll try to do smth more generic next time
19:38:34 <Alberth> it's going to be dedicated to one type of grf at best
19:38:54 <Alberth> unless you want to write pretty much a higher level nml language
19:39:39 <_dp_> well, higher level nml is exactly what I'm looking for
19:39:59 <Alberth> you're welcome to write nml2 :p
19:40:49 <Alberth> but higher level without closing off some directions is highly complicated
19:41:26 <Alberth> simple dedicated program beats the shit out of it :)
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27849 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2017-04-08 19:45:39 +0200 )
19:45:50 <DorpsGek> korean: 4 changes by telk5093
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20:10:31 <quiznilo> also, I love the splash screen, there are a ton of good station confi ideas on it
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21:25:50 <peter1138> omg no real commits for 4 days, this game is dead!
21:29:09 <peter1138> how's the caching going
21:29:21 <_dp_> no real commits in two years if you ask me :p
21:29:27 <Samu> i stopped, i suppose i won't go anywhere with it
21:30:20 <Samu> im not a real programmer :(
21:40:57 <quiznilo> ships are OP, buff airports
21:57:34 <peter1138> Samu, pfft, giving up is for losers
22:13:45 <quiznilo> anyone know if there is any difference between 'unload all' and 'transfer'?
22:14:50 <quiznilo> all these hidden mysteries of ottd
22:15:04 <peter1138> yes, one unloads, and one transfers
22:16:27 <_dp_> iirc only difference is that transfer gives fake income
22:18:10 <_dp_> oh, and probably doesn't transfer cargo to industry even if station accepts it
22:18:31 <FLHerne> quiznilo: They're equivalent unless there's an accepting industry next to the station
22:18:51 <quiznilo> ah! I was wondering about that, what to do in that situation... makes sense
22:19:47 <FLHerne> quiznilo: "Unload all" allows cargo to be delivered to surrounding industries/buildings, "transfer" keeps all the cargo on the station
22:21:51 * _dp_ played with hotkeys for so long that don't even remember what orders actually do xD
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