IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-02-24
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10:14:18 <crem> Only visible from one country. Boring.
10:16:13 <__ln__> obviously if they spend billions of dollars to arrange a solar eclipse, they won't share it with others
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13:42:01 * Wolf01 will be back tomorrow o/
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16:14:51 <supermop__> why do people ask me of all people to code stuff?
16:15:06 <supermop__> i don't even know how to use excel
16:23:55 <supermop__> maybe i am misinterpreting tone
16:25:24 <supermop__> but "The only reason I ever wanted road types to begin with is so..." sounds to me like someone angry that a feature exists but no author has made a grf with that feature yet?
16:33:21 <supermop__> i feel actively discouraged from making a speed limit test fork of ARRS now
16:37:20 <Alberth> nah, he just wants speed limits rather than road types. Road types however can also provide speed limits
16:38:15 <supermop__> yeah, so i don't see what the point of complaint is
16:40:05 <Alberth> He is only complaining about lack of such limits, although imho using road types purely for speed limits is overkill, imho
16:41:23 <Alberth> basically the usual confusion between RL and a game :)
16:41:37 <Alberth> or that scales mean anything in openttd :p
16:42:55 <Alberth> it has nothing to do with your work at all
16:45:17 <Alberth> if you make a version with speed limits, he is likely to be estatic, as you provided the thing he is dearly missing
16:48:20 <supermop__> i kinda wanted to make tramway with catenary that is $$$ and fast vs tramway with trolley wire that is cheap and slow
16:48:47 <supermop__> but it's not a huge priority for me
16:49:11 <supermop__> sort of a 'trolley line' and 'modern Light rail'
16:49:54 <supermop__> and 'cable hauled streetcar' but that sounds like it would be a pain
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16:54:03 <Alberth> hmm, a pipe grf to do fast and large quantities transport... that could be interesting
16:57:20 <supermop__> i've considered coding chairlifts/gondolas as a road or tram type
16:57:54 <supermop__> really needs type limited bridges
16:58:10 <supermop__> or at least type specific bridge graphics
16:58:23 <supermop__> and i feel like i would have noticed if that was possible
17:01:32 <Alberth> yep, I also think you cannot enforce that currently
17:01:48 <Alberth> bridges are very limited anyway, with just 11 in total
17:03:03 <Alberth> although I just need 1 generic bridge :p
17:05:17 <supermop__> damn i miss that monorail bridge
17:06:37 <supermop__> of course i could slog through NFO to make a bridgetype that is only a a pair of overhead cables, but that might be a bit nervewracking for car drivers
17:08:59 <Alberth> nah, openttd car drivers are very good at driving :)
17:09:19 <Alberth> they can even drive over invisible bridges :)
17:10:28 <Alberth> but basically, it's a matter of the player respecting intended use of the object
17:11:05 <Alberth> he/she can always make a huge mess
17:11:15 <Alberth> AIs are particularly good at it :p
17:12:01 <Alberth> you can't control that or stop that, so better simply ignore it
17:12:26 <Alberth> I had quite enough coffee today, but dinner would be useful
17:21:31 <supermop__> i also got a donut
17:22:00 <supermop__> which has a fragment of stroopwaffle on top for some reason
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18:13:01 <supermop__> ok i better code a trolleytruck before the weekend
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19:23:41 <supermop_> for a steel wheeled tram and a rubber tyred trolley bus, of equal weight and hp, which should have the higher TE
19:24:10 <supermop_> rubber seems grippier and better for slopes but...
19:24:46 <supermop_> i guess friction and deformation losses from the tires is a separate issue from TE
19:25:28 <Alberth> wouldn't that start counting at higher speeds?
19:27:01 <supermop_> i mean a city doesn't choose tram or bus based on TE and friction, but it is a consideration for say, rubber tyred metro
19:27:12 <supermop_> and monorail, people movers etc
19:27:39 <glx> less energy required to move the same weight on rail than on road
19:27:40 <supermop_> clearly there are some cases where someone has chosen rubber for a reason other than cheapness
19:27:58 <Alberth> freedom of movement :p
19:28:21 <supermop_> because in some of those cases the rubber is more $$ overall than the steel, and there is still the cost of guiderails
19:28:24 <glx> I think they use tyred metro when there are too steep slopes
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19:29:05 <supermop_> glx: thats what i was thinking, i know chongqing uses monorail for some metro lines for that reason
19:29:27 <supermop_> so for a trolley truck that means it should have more TE than a tram?
19:29:57 <supermop_> trolley bus can have more HP than diesel bus
19:30:45 <supermop_> so if player is paying for wires for bus, there should be some reason to choose trolley bus instead of tram
19:31:17 <glx> tyred metro also increases capacity of the line due to better acceleration and deceleration
19:31:44 <supermop_> because i think the subtle difference in cost between rail+wires and wires only is too academic to have any meaningful impact in game
19:32:28 <supermop_> not sure how rolling resistance is meaningful in game either, other than abusing air drag
19:33:25 <supermop_> so: bus = cheapest, trolleybus=best acceleration, tram= most efficient?
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19:45:59 <Alberth> supermop_: just pick what you want for the vehicles, and fix stats to match, nobody claims they must have same HP or whatever
19:47:36 <Alberth> ie let game-play lead
19:49:41 <supermop_> Alberth: i guess my question is, rather than as a cute toy, what is the gameplay point of a trolleybus
19:52:54 <andythenorth> should we just make ‘nml as a service’
19:53:07 <andythenorth> if we could do it stateless…it would be probably quite trivial
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19:53:15 <andythenorth> no user accounts, no projects, no state
19:53:27 <Alberth> I love open wagons, as they make such nice variations on the tracks
19:53:33 <andythenorth> session based, if you want to store it, export json
19:53:41 <andythenorth> to restore your session, upload the json
19:53:44 <Alberth> technically, just one box wagon would work too
19:56:02 <andythenorth> hmm, why even json?
19:56:11 <andythenorth> just make an nml serialiser / deserialiser :P
19:56:19 <andythenorth> use the native format as the import / export format :P
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19:59:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: sounds a bit cumbersome to upload 1GiB of sprites everyday
19:59:57 <Alberth> not to mention publishing the grf as GPL
20:00:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: also, there is a native nml binary for windows
20:00:57 <frosch123> if people are too stupid to use that one, they are also too stupid to use nml in general, and they are also probably too stupid to use a web interface
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20:06:27 <Alberth> or too scared, as it involves "programming"
20:06:49 <andythenorth> it was the ‘coding’ comments that made me think of it
20:06:56 <andythenorth> coding NRT without callbacks is barely coding
20:07:12 <andythenorth> or at least, it’s simple declarative markup, like BBCode
20:07:21 <andythenorth> it could be done in a web UI :P
20:07:28 <andythenorth> ‘upload a sprite'
20:07:40 * andythenorth realised all the error cases and support burden :P
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20:08:57 <Alberth> it's basically GRFmaker, I guess
20:09:37 <Alberth> for some reason people are fine typing numbers in a GUI, but not in a plain text file :)
20:10:20 <andythenorth> I wonder if the abandonment rate on grfs tracks the abandonment rate on SaaS web apps like goal trackers, to-do lists etc
20:11:24 <Alberth> that sentence is not understandable for me
20:24:37 <andythenorth> lots of people sign up to free web apps
20:24:39 <andythenorth> with good intentions
20:24:54 <andythenorth> and some project in mind
20:25:00 <andythenorth> but the number who give up is high :)
20:27:20 <Alberth> trying to realize a dream it makes them realize dreaming about a result is much simpler
20:28:10 <Alberth> dreaming about realizing beats realizing the dream :p
20:32:49 <Alberth> btw, new FIRS is much better
20:33:11 <Alberth> you get off the ground much easier
20:35:30 <Alberth> I am somewhat undecided about lack of proper distance between producing and consuming industries
20:35:56 <Alberth> on the one hand it's annoying to have a connection that is so short
20:36:18 <Alberth> on the other hand, it does bring variation in delivery
20:38:13 <ST2> FIRS 2, Road Hog, Iron Horse and FISH 2.... what can go wrong?! xD
20:38:29 <ST2> I owe a big thanks to someone ^^
20:39:39 <Alberth> don't think there are many players here
20:40:17 <ST2> invitation includes to spectate :)
20:41:01 <Alberth> does that happen? sounds quite boring
20:41:48 <ST2> I'll spectate... would be unfair to play it knowing the scenario to use xD
20:42:19 <Alberth> well, except for game masters then? :p
20:58:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: needs to be at least 16px distance
20:59:26 <andythenorth> ST2: no AV9? o_O
20:59:51 <ST2> and now can't included it - it's a custom scenario :(
21:00:36 <ST2> and we're a bit affraid of flying so, plane limits are kinda low xD
21:03:34 <ST2> nice replacement for trains smoke ^^
21:33:12 <ST2> I know V was busy with the small gust of wind (fff)
21:34:39 * andythenorth wondered about ottd station tiles that replicate the ground tile of an adjacent tile
21:34:50 <andythenorth> determined by which edge you click near when building
21:54:08 <Alberth> you ever use several different ground tiles for one station? Also, what tile would you select?
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22:29:19 <frosch123> i wonder why video games make uranium always green
22:29:31 <frosch123> i think its just biter shit in disguise
22:31:03 <frosch123> most metals look the same :p
22:31:54 <V453000> I don't think we can keep being friends frosch
22:31:59 <V453000> Not after these words
22:32:04 <andythenorth> supermop: I found some trails sprites
22:32:41 <frosch123> V453000: what is wrong with burning biter products?
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22:33:47 <andythenorth> do I need multiple repos for BROS?
22:35:23 <frosch123> V453000: did you also adjust the minimal colors?
22:35:50 <frosch123> for me its always hard to distinguish stone and iore on first look, unless they are next to each other
22:35:52 <V453000> The fuck is minimal colors?
22:36:29 <V453000> Whole map has never been touched by a person who has any colour sense
22:36:51 <V453000> Maybe will make it into 0.15
22:38:09 <andythenorth> BRIX-style factorio? o_O :P
22:39:48 <frosch123> ah, the green originates from uranium-glas
22:44:30 <andythenorth> more-mathematically-accurate-still-too-short boats
22:44:37 <andythenorth> look wrong in game :P
22:45:17 <andythenorth> maybe I’m just too used to chibi diagonal views
22:50:46 * andythenorth cleaning up old stuff
23:03:41 <it_> Hello. I was wondering where I can find clear defintions on scenario files. I wanted to create a new scenario given height data, city locations and river/lake locations. I suppose I can't just create a map if I want to add river & lakes; what if I want to add cities too?
23:05:32 <frosch123> i think there are also topics about founding towns in specific places, but it is even more fiddly
23:09:14 <it_> Hm well I saw that topic. But the post is about creating heightmaps and loading them into the scenario editor. I managed to do that already, what I want to achieve now is add rivers & lakes (and later cities)
23:09:26 <it_> which afaik you can't add to the heightmap somehow? :/
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