IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-02-15
⏴ go to previous day
00:04:14 <supermop_> no trolley wire for mud yard tramway
00:04:22 <supermop_> save a tramtype slot
00:04:47 <supermop_> maybe ruins little HEQs trams
00:06:56 <supermop_> but i don't think andy will be updating HEQs for NRT anytime soon
00:23:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
01:08:14 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
01:08:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
01:48:49 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
01:48:49 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
01:56:07 *** markasoftware has joined #openttd
02:42:19 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
02:42:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
03:21:15 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
03:21:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
03:22:29 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
03:23:59 *** smoke_fumus has joined #openttd
04:38:37 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
04:43:47 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
04:43:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
04:57:03 *** tycoondemon2 has joined #openttd
05:52:44 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
05:52:45 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
06:15:33 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
06:15:33 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
06:21:37 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
06:21:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
07:09:13 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
07:09:13 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
07:25:42 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
07:25:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
07:25:52 *** supermop__ has joined #openttd
08:39:34 *** Alkel_U3 has joined #openttd
08:43:41 *** Alkel_U3 has joined #openttd
08:52:05 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd
09:16:02 *** skapazzo has joined #openttd
09:30:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
09:49:24 *** supermop has joined #openttd
11:38:55 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
12:08:15 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
12:49:28 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
12:49:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
13:11:48 <Wolf01> Story of your cousins XD
13:15:01 *** supermop has joined #openttd
13:15:18 <__ln__> to confuse things more, the name of the Slovak language in Slovak is 'slovenský jazyk'
13:25:04 <Alkel_U3> I was just about to post that :-)
13:28:55 <crem> I know what's the most irritating for belarusians! It's when belarus is called byelorussia (white russia) rathen than Belarus. :) Russia called Belarus properly in 1990s, and recently (last 10 years) started to call Byelorussia again.
13:31:15 <Wolf01> I shit on pasta with ketchup
13:50:17 *** matt11235 has joined #openttd
14:24:03 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
14:34:05 *** supermop_ has joined #openttd
14:48:44 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
14:56:00 *** supermop has joined #openttd
15:01:24 *** Arveen2 has joined #openttd
16:14:33 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:01:16 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
17:01:16 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
17:09:20 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
17:19:45 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
17:39:52 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
17:42:31 *** maciozo has joined #openttd
17:45:11 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd
17:57:58 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
18:07:50 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
18:24:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: for industry creation during game, did you try anything like ‘just build 1 new industry per year’?
18:24:58 <andythenorth> i.e. increasing beyond the quota
18:30:16 <Alberth> in openttd source code?
18:30:50 <Alberth> iirc it's smaller, 5 / decade, except a more weird number than 5
18:31:20 <andythenorth> most of my games are 20-30 years, with no closures
18:31:20 <Alberth> it can be smaller, if industries die a lot, it stop adding new industries
18:31:32 <andythenorth> and very very rarely do I see an industry added to the map
18:32:00 <andythenorth> one route would be to fix it in GS
18:32:06 <andythenorth> but I don’t think that’s quite right
18:32:25 <Alberth> what do you want to fix?
18:32:52 <Alberth> 350t iron ore / month :o so much
18:33:26 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
18:33:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
18:34:29 <Alberth> (380, 400) -> (115, 280) that's pretty much half the map, at 88km/h :p
18:41:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: line 2095 industry_cmd.cpp
18:41:31 <Alberth> static const int NEWINDS_PER_MONTH = 0x38000 / (10 * 12); // lower 16 bits is a float fraction, 3.5 industries per decade, divided by 10 * 12 months.
18:43:04 <Wolf01> Bah... I'm using stud.io to build an airport with a friend... that software has too many bugs and inconsistencies that make it a pain to use :(
18:51:56 <andythenorth> that chimes with my experience
18:52:09 <andythenorth> I usually play 256x256 or so
18:52:19 * andythenorth probably has very different game to ‘most people’ :)
18:55:43 <andythenorth> what was the ‘half the map’ thing? o_O
19:11:26 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
19:11:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
19:15:34 <Alberth> 350 t/month iron ore, in 1905, IH
19:15:48 * andythenorth has a smaller map :P
19:16:08 <andythenorth> yeah, I needed more iron ore
19:16:16 <andythenorth> is that the default (1x) production?
19:16:36 <andythenorth> that’s the upper end of the range
19:16:43 <andythenorth> 160t is more common :)
19:18:25 <Alberth> hmm, the other two are 90 and 135 t/m
19:18:49 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
19:18:55 <andythenorth> the random range might be too wide
19:19:05 <Alberth> I didn't check the amounts, but by the time I was finished adding trains, all trains of the first one had already left :)
19:19:41 <Alberth> filled tracks with long trains
19:19:59 <andythenorth> it would not be a good choice with IH Antelope
19:20:05 <andythenorth> which has small capacity, long wagons :P
19:20:09 <andythenorth> very very long trains :P
19:20:42 <Alberth> the track to the far left does something similar, although production is more sane
19:20:58 <Alberth> I don't have Antelope, is that a new engine?
19:21:09 <Alberth> or a newer version perhaps
19:21:46 <andythenorth> it’s not in the released versions
19:22:01 <andythenorth> so many unfinished things :)
19:22:12 <Alberth> big bertha is quite useless, nice horsepower but not fast enough at this distance
19:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't big bertha a cannon?
19:24:29 <andythenorth> it’s also a cannon
19:25:39 <andythenorth> I am going to rebalance IH, I am playing a test version right now
19:25:49 <andythenorth> freight trains are seriously too fast :)
19:35:44 <supermop_> i very quickly seem to go from 6 tile freight is too long, to not nearly big enough
19:36:02 <supermop_> but line capacity won't allow much bigger than 7 or 8
19:38:11 <andythenorth> start with TL6, then 8, 10 or 12
19:38:16 <andythenorth> and more platforms
19:38:21 <andythenorth> network is overwhelmed fast
19:39:58 <supermop_> nice looking junctions have trouble handling the stream of 8TL freights coming through every 10 days
19:39:59 <andythenorth> I should make an IH roster with 40, 70, 100t wagons
19:40:09 <andythenorth> at max 8/8 lengths :P
19:40:14 <supermop_> hampers mixed use lines a bit
19:40:39 * andythenorth doesn’t even have any :P
19:40:55 <andythenorth> I have started a new SV, and have built the main spine route with canals instead
19:41:05 <andythenorth> which is weird and lame, but I’ll never get gold otherwise
19:42:24 <supermop_> i still keep trying to run passengers and freight on the same double tack as long as i can
19:42:26 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
19:42:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
19:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that always results in me only focusing on passengers and neglecting freight
19:46:35 <supermop_> andy, this code you gave me, i can just adapt into a regular nml file, right?
19:46:54 <supermop_> i don't necessarily need to do any python magic to it
19:51:14 <supermop_> hmm what to call the harbor roadways?
19:51:36 <supermop_> cobble road or roadway sounds like a regular road or street
19:52:03 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
19:52:03 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
19:52:33 <supermop_> does 'driveway' make sense?
19:55:06 <Alberth> andy: I wouldn't know if freight trains are too fast, it's all I do :)
20:02:47 <andythenorth> it causes balancing issues
20:03:05 <andythenorth> if the basic idea is that there are fast pax engines and slower more powerful freight engines....
20:03:17 <andythenorth> when they are too similar, it introduces a boring choice
20:03:29 <andythenorth> I am attempting to be the enemy of boring choices :)
20:04:14 <andythenorth> supermop: you’ll need a grf header block, but that RH code is vanilla nml yes, no python in it
20:04:35 <andythenorth> I copied it from the nml example grf for NRT :)
20:23:09 <andythenorth> when would ottd _ideally_ build new industries?
20:25:42 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
20:29:32 <andythenorth> that heuristic is hard to manage :)
20:29:59 <Alberth> depends, you can check what industries you play with, and where
20:30:21 <Alberth> you can check how you connect industries
20:30:42 <Alberth> there should be a lot of information in what you do in the game, I think
20:30:59 <Alberth> but I agree it's not trivial to find information
20:31:14 <supermop_> 'yard' instead of 'roadway'?
20:31:31 <Alberth> another point is of course, if you connect only coal mines, should the game supply you with even more?
20:31:50 <Alberth> ie how is that balanced wrt newgrf author wishes?
20:32:13 <Alberth> for me, a yard is a weird unit of length, or a garden :p
20:32:33 <andythenorth> heuristics are hard :)
20:32:47 <andythenorth> maybe you didn’t connect any coal mines because they’re all in the wrong place
20:32:51 <supermop_> Alberth: what if trucks are driving around on your garden?
20:32:53 <andythenorth> so maybe you really want a coal mine
20:33:26 <Alberth> could be, in theory you can analyze that too
20:33:30 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
20:33:39 <Alberth> along with speed of trains, the terrain etc etc
20:34:10 <Alberth> supermop_: I'd like to see them do that, as I have no such thing :)
20:35:53 <Alberth> but you're asking about USA names and we have very little clue about meaning of USA names, mostly
20:36:37 <Alberth> andy, but if you specify some sort of preferences, it could work from that
20:37:23 <supermop_> any sort of name at all.
20:37:54 <supermop_> like what to call the big paved part of a port where trucks and forklifts drive around
20:38:20 <andythenorth> Alberth: although I am -1 to settings generally, seems like control over industry construction (and maybe closure) might be an openttd thing
20:38:27 <andythenorth> it’s not a case that newgrf can solve
20:38:36 <supermop_> 'paved road' sounds like a road
20:38:53 <supermop_> 'pavement' sounds like, not a road
20:38:54 <andythenorth> it’s a very highly specific thing for GS to solve, and a distortion of GS as a goals framework
20:39:05 <supermop_> so user might not understand
20:39:38 <andythenorth> Close industries: “never” | “random chance if unserviced for x years”
20:40:22 <andythenorth> Open industries: “never” | “random chance every x years (favour highly served types)” | “random chance every x years (favour under-served types)"
20:54:49 <Alberth> I agree newgrf can't solve it, it doesn't have enough knowledge, or coding it is too complicated
20:55:03 <Alberth> so openttd or a GS would be better
20:55:27 <Alberth> I also believe openttd is in a much better position to request closure
20:55:43 <Alberth> but euhm, somebody blocked that in the newgrf spec :p
20:56:02 <Alberth> until we make an extension on the extension, or something
20:57:20 <Alberth> I don't think people have much trouble with opening, that is, until you open too many, I guess
20:57:34 <Alberth> but people do not like closing
20:57:50 <Alberth> likely they don't serve the industry well enough
20:58:35 <Alberth> I had the problem a few times that I was setting up a connection, and it died on me, yep it happens, generally not a big deal, unless it's very early in the game
20:58:36 <andythenorth> a newgrf major version bump would be a reason to remove closure control from newgrf :P
20:58:48 <andythenorth> newgrf doesn’t need to forbid closure
20:59:04 <andythenorth> oh, eh, there are people who want to force closure in newgrf though :(
20:59:17 <Alberth> afaik, newgrf has the final word
20:59:28 <andythenorth> addon specs are a minefield
20:59:32 <andythenorth> ‘here be dragons'
20:59:35 <andythenorth> never write an API :P
20:59:54 <Alberth> some people think you can solve global problems in a local way, and get a good result :(
21:00:33 <Alberth> or they are afraid players may play in a different way than they do, or so
21:00:34 <andythenorth> ‘forbid closure’ would have looked like a logical option for the cb at the time it was written
21:00:45 <andythenorth> it’s hard to design a future proof API :)
21:01:28 <Alberth> instead make it possible to remove the api when it has fulfilled its evolutionary role
21:02:35 <andythenorth> does a version bump do that?
21:02:43 <Alberth> hmm, can't we add a lower/upper version to each api, just like the data saved in a savegame has a lower and upper version number where it is valid
21:02:44 <andythenorth> old grfs carry on working as expected :P
21:03:08 <andythenorth> it add conditional jank in openttd though eh?
21:03:17 <andythenorth> if grfversion > 8 (stuff) or so :)
21:03:26 <Alberth> hmm, rewrite old newgrf to new standard :p
21:03:35 <Alberth> yeah, it explodes somewhat
21:03:46 <Alberth> but game version conversion does that too
21:04:20 <supermop_> what if i try to drive a trolleybus on ROAD+ELRL?
21:04:44 <supermop_> it isn't specifically ELRD
21:04:54 <andythenorth> what compatibility have you set?
21:05:10 <andythenorth> if ELRL is a tramtype label, it’s literally ignored for the road vehicle and vice versa
21:05:15 <supermop_> i guess thats realistic bc trolleybus need two trolleywires
21:05:43 <andythenorth> realism or not, connecting the labels for the two route types together is a fast trolleyride to madness :)
21:06:00 <supermop_> setting electric road types to be powered on each other but not electric tram types
21:06:03 <Alberth> ha, pig iron has different colour in different wagons, I see
21:06:25 <supermop_> Alberth: gets rusty faster in some wagons?
21:07:07 <Alberth> only if rusty pig iron is more white-ish :)
21:07:11 <andythenorth> that might be an accident :)
21:07:28 <andythenorth> I haven’t really supported it yet
21:09:05 <Alberth> oh, it's fine, just unexpected
21:09:22 <andythenorth> default (fallback) cargo sprites
21:09:27 <andythenorth> boxes + tarpaulins
21:09:27 <Alberth> variation in shape and colour is always nice
21:10:03 <Alberth> 1.9.1 is also pre steeltown, probably
21:10:16 <Alberth> no wonder it doesn't know about it :)
21:16:58 <Alberth> works at a smaller map
21:20:56 <andythenorth> ach, these square cornered canals :)
21:22:09 <Alberth> didn't planet maker have better canal sprites?
21:22:19 <Alberth> or were they river sprites perhaps?
21:23:09 <Alberth> but indeed, we're quite stuck with the grid world
21:27:49 <Alberth> bleh, train moving uphill @ 2km/h :(
21:33:20 <andythenorth> there is opengfx water features
21:33:24 <andythenorth> better canals, worse rivers :)
21:35:11 <Alberth> I know it needs more engines
21:35:31 <Alberth> more powerful horses wouldbe simpler :p
21:36:58 <Alberth> but at least it explains why my cargo isn't being moved :)
21:37:34 <andythenorth> what do you have for freight weight multiplier setting? o_O
21:37:36 *** ConductorCat has joined #openttd
21:37:55 <Alberth> apparently, andy has heavy goods, unlike default goods :)
21:38:45 <andythenorth> that used to be a recommended default with NARS and such
21:39:10 <andythenorth> I should put that in the docs :P
21:39:14 <Alberth> ah, 6x as long trains :p
21:39:50 <Alberth> "author plays with freight multiplier 1, you must do the same" :)
21:41:00 <Alberth> oh, 4-4-2 is reliable now, could use that one instead
21:41:03 <andythenorth> “author tests with 1” :P
21:41:24 <andythenorth> tbh, the TE and HP are already about twice reality
21:41:44 <andythenorth> the 6 setting was the advice for American train sets where people want 5 or 6 engines on a train
21:42:00 <Alberth> hmm, less TE, not good
21:42:33 <Alberth> yeah, 6 is just sort of random
21:42:35 <andythenorth> what year are you in?
21:42:46 <Alberth> no special purpose of ideas behind it
21:43:25 <andythenorth> there should be an Aberdare, 2 of those are usually quite good
21:43:27 <Alberth> 2-6-0 exists too, but only 85%
21:43:47 <andythenorth> does reliability increase if you run more instances of the train?
21:44:24 <Alberth> no, but it goes up in time, and then down again
21:44:38 <andythenorth> I projected a non-existent cause
21:44:40 <Alberth> at first it was around 64%, which is horrible
21:44:45 <andythenorth> been years since I had breakdowns on
21:46:24 <Alberth> it's faster and slightly more powerful, a bit of reliability reduction likely won't be that bad
21:50:00 <Alberth> slag transport is a mess, can't keep up with the new iron ore production raise :)
22:00:56 <andythenorth> it’s over-produced, the ratio is 50:50
22:01:02 <andythenorth> should be more like 75:25
22:01:08 <andythenorth> needs new FIRS code
22:02:39 <Alberth> oh, any amount is good, just needs more trains :p
22:02:54 <Alberth> and a more dedicated line for it
22:09:42 <Alberth> I like restructuring railway tracks to smoothen traffic
22:10:14 <andythenorth> maybe I should stop using SV for a bit
22:10:24 <andythenorth> it creates focus on ‘win’ :)
22:10:53 <Alberth> big ore mines, and over-production of slag is good, it causes chaos in the network that needs to be fixed
22:11:34 <Alberth> default industries are a bit better at that, as their production rises :p
22:13:52 <supermop_> sprites start at the top left, right?
22:16:42 *** orudge` has joined #openttd
22:16:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge`
22:20:10 <andythenorth> am I the only irritated by train lengths that are not x.0?
22:23:36 * andythenorth ponders making all wagons 4/8 and 8/8
22:24:41 <supermop_> wait - its the x,y of the first pixel in the sprite, or how many pixels it is from the origin?
22:25:13 <supermop_> like if there is 10px whitespace from the edges, it would be 11,11 right?
22:25:21 <supermop_> andythenorth: yes a little
22:25:47 <supermop_> non integer trains look better but are annoying
22:26:09 <andythenorth> supermop_: zero-indexd, so 10,10 if it’s 10px whitespace
22:35:58 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
22:43:58 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
22:44:23 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
