IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-02-14
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11:03:10 <Flygon> EGA doesn't have those beiges
11:03:27 <Flygon> Trying to draw browns into an EGA palette is like trying to make a Magpie not swoop you
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11:42:05 <peter1138> actually ega had a palette but nobody used it
11:43:00 <peter1138> nothing very beige-like though
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12:06:08 <Deactivated> Anyway enuf of botes, bye
12:06:26 <Deactivated> Have not been having much spare time of late :'(
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14:36:28 <Flygon> peter1138: Yeah. I've been doing artwork within that range for a Master System project (same 6-bit DACs used)
14:37:53 <peter1138> non-square pixels are always fun
14:38:26 <peter1138> and also common when 320x200 was normal
14:38:28 <Flygon> Hahaha, you picked up me having to use those? :)
14:38:54 <Flygon> 256*192 squished into what's realistically a 16:9(ish) space
14:39:44 <Flygon> The SMS really doesn't give you enough vertical resolution. But assume enough overscan (ie. assume the top and bottom 8 lines will be cut off), and you'll get a very nice crop to 16:9 on NTSC TVs.
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15:18:25 <Wolf01> Mmmmh, I'm really tempted to rewrite the split toolbar handling
15:21:26 <Wolf01> arrangable_count = lengthof(arrange_switch) / 2; <- what if is odd?
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16:52:11 <andythenorth> ‘trona mine’ or ‘soda ash mine’?
16:52:16 <andythenorth> produces soda ash
16:59:26 <Wolf01> I have a problem in SE, the tramway toolbar does not open but reuses the road toolbar if it finds it open, also the road toolbar can't change title
16:59:45 <Alberth> trona seems USA oriented
17:00:50 <Rubidium> I'd use soda ash mine since it's more generic
17:01:04 <peter1138> for most people "mine" is enough :p
17:01:11 <andythenorth> it’s also usual that the [xyx] mine produces [xyz]
17:02:02 <andythenorth> child #1 knows most types of rocks it seems
17:02:06 <andythenorth> due to minecraft
17:02:11 <andythenorth> obsidian, quartz
17:03:17 <Alberth> ha, "I became a geoligist, as I played minecraft" :)
17:07:01 <andythenorth> ‘SODA’ as label?
17:07:12 <andythenorth> or does that conflate with ‘COLA’ :P
17:08:42 <peter1138> just reserve some labels
17:10:11 <peter1138> i recommend labels beginning with 0x4341 or 0x9787.
17:10:44 <andythenorth> what’s NA2CO3 in hex? :P
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17:19:44 <Wolf01> Better finish current things which might have a lot more possibility of be included in vanilla
17:19:47 <andythenorth> you need to split them, like the in-game toolbars? o_O
17:20:23 <andythenorth> are tram and road toolbars separate in main game/
17:20:42 <andythenorth> all conditional stuff?
17:21:06 <Wolf01> No, they are effectively 2 configs using the same class
17:21:18 <Wolf01> And I think it will stay like that
17:21:46 <Wolf01> But I have some... ehm... problems in SE because it seem to be handled differently
17:22:28 <Wolf01> Once you manage to open the tram toolbar you can effectively build tramways
17:23:15 <Wolf01> If you want to compile, I already committed the base stuff, I only need the last 2 fixes
17:25:49 <andythenorth> yes I see the problem :)
17:27:46 <andythenorth> ha FIRS has 84 industries
17:27:54 * andythenorth should delete some
17:28:23 <Alberth> nah, extreme firs would become playable :p
17:29:24 <Alberth> although such players probably don't care which industries they get precisely anyway :)
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17:31:45 <Alberth> I guess forks still have that economy even if you remove it
17:32:07 <Alberth> on the other hand, removing is likely more work that it's worth
17:32:37 <andythenorth> I use it with Busy Bee
17:32:49 <andythenorth> it’s actually acceptable with that GS :)
17:38:26 <Wolf01> Anime time, I'm a bit reluctant to work today
17:41:52 <Alberth> hmm, I had a nice goal for extending the line, but what was it again :p
17:45:14 <andythenorth> Steeltown is turning into ‘Accurate Industrial Chemicals Town'
17:45:27 <andythenorth> instead of composite ‘Chemicals’ that goes everywhere
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18:11:01 <Alberth> make a chemicals economy :)
18:11:27 <Alberth> bit boring industries perhaps, all just tanks and pipes
18:12:16 <Wolf01> You will end up making ECS-like sets one economy for every set, and with all sets combined you will simulate with a good accuracy the R world
18:14:56 <andythenorth> mostly I am finding that most cargos are better with one source and one consumer
18:15:10 <andythenorth> FIRS tends to multiple consumers, and sometimes more than one source
18:18:25 <Alberth> s/headache/challenge/
18:18:45 <Alberth> you have to make a choice, or have several such industries :)
18:19:54 <Alberth> but in general, it doesn't matter where you bring stuff, you always get things to transport :)
18:20:24 <andythenorth> this might be done, ‘for now'
18:20:31 <andythenorth> at least until I play test again
18:20:54 <andythenorth> chemicals are the wrong input for the foundry / steel finishing plant
18:20:59 <andythenorth> should be non-ferrous metals for alloying
18:21:05 <andythenorth> but I ran out of ports :P
18:25:51 <supermop_> trying to psych myself up to do some nml-ing
18:27:06 <andythenorth> go on supermop_, do some nml-ing ;)
18:28:04 <supermop_> do you have NRTHOG source i can copy?
18:28:45 <supermop_> might procrastinate by doing real work
18:35:36 <supermop_> if a road grf does not define road there will still be default road, right?
18:41:04 <andythenorth> that’s what Road Hog does leastways
18:44:17 <andythenorth> ho, scrap yard can make non-ferrous metals :)
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19:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate ext2/3/4's "reserve blocks for root" feature...
19:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it tells you 2GB free, and suddenly it switches to 0
19:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it should report these blocks used for non-root users
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19:52:33 <Alberth> don't query disk space for root :)
19:53:17 <Alberth> vut iirc, I reduced the size, 5% or so was ridiculous on todays disks
19:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> this is my /home partition, root has no business there
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20:07:52 <Alberth> although at 2GB, you have a problem anyway
20:08:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, i know that. just remind 5-year-ago me to do that
20:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the partition is only like 32GB or so
20:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a 6TB raid-5 for the "big" stuff
20:09:08 <Alberth> move 32GB, reformat, move back
20:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> this is the last bit of a 128GB SSD, which has / and a windows partition on it
20:10:22 <Alberth> so? you can reformat a partition, at least with Linux
20:10:39 <Alberth> native BSD format is much more fun :p
20:10:48 <Alberth> no partition table :)
20:11:32 <andythenorth> sometimes 3 outputs per industry would be great
20:11:37 <andythenorth> just to avoid hard thinking :P
20:11:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and then? you'd just complain about 4 next
20:12:01 <supermop_> have a tile that just produces some amount of cargo 3 like a house?
20:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: i don't think it works like that
20:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: and even if it did, it would screw up the whole industry chain display
20:20:04 <Alberth> :o 342,000 l rubber, normal production :)
20:25:33 <andythenorth> in both cases, non-ferrous metals would be much more appropriate (zinc, nickel etc)
20:26:01 <andythenorth> but I have nowhere to get them from, unless I add the full chains with mines and processors
20:31:38 <Alberth> 32 industries seems enough to me
20:32:51 <Wolf01> Quak frosch123, I've worked on the SE, but I have a problem with opening the tram toolbar, it works if the road toolbar is already open, but it won't open it's own, also the toolbar doesn't seem to change data (strings/icons) I've also tried to reinitialize it
20:33:04 <Alberth> steeltown lends itself more to massive transport than diverse transport, like in a hot country
20:34:09 <supermop_> not for alloying, just because i like the name
20:34:57 <supermop_> molybdenum mine -> molybdenum store in town
20:38:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: agreed, I’m trying to structure it so that 1000t is a normal amount from a mine or so :)
20:39:11 <andythenorth> in all my test games I’ve been trying to get 2000t/month of steel produced
20:39:15 <andythenorth> but fail so far :P
20:49:44 <frosch123> Wolf01: it doesn't even offer tramtypes in the dropdown for me
20:50:23 <Wolf01> Did you try the other button?
20:50:40 <frosch123> it builds the stuff
20:50:58 <Wolf01> Yes, once you open it, it works
20:51:09 <frosch123> well, problem is GetRoadTypeDropDownList
20:51:18 <frosch123> it also needs some decision which tramtypes are available
20:51:32 <frosch123> the thing that it build tram even clicking, even though the dropdown is empty
20:51:40 <frosch123> i think that is a bug, which may also fail in game
20:52:09 <Wolf01> But it reuses the road toolbar if it's open
20:52:36 <Wolf01> As in SE construction toolbar don't get closed
20:53:37 <frosch123> that's the same in game, isn't it?
20:53:52 <Wolf01> In game it closes all the toolbars of the same type
20:54:22 <Wolf01> In SE no toolbars close the others of the same type
21:00:27 <frosch123> DeleteWindowByClass(WC_BUILD_TOOLBAR); <- that closes all toolbars in-game
21:00:43 <frosch123> you can find it in ShowBuildRoadToolbar, but not in ShowBuildRoadScenToolbar
21:00:55 <frosch123> the reason why tram replaced road is because they have the same window number
21:01:03 <frosch123> windowclass+windownumber must be unique
21:01:17 <frosch123> WC_SCEN_BUILD_TOOLBAR+TRANSPORT_ROAD is the same for both
21:01:48 <Wolf01> Ok, but why it doesn't open a new one for trams if no toolbar is found?
21:02:12 <frosch123> so, add a DeleteWindowById(WC_SCEN_BUILD_TOOLBAR, TRANSPORT_ROAD) to close the previous one
21:02:27 <Wolf01> No, it doesn't work, I already tried
21:02:56 <Wolf01> Just closes the toolbar and nothing new appears
21:03:24 <frosch123> yes, that's what i meant :)
21:05:57 <Wolf01> Uhm, DeleteWindowById doesn't even seem to work
21:06:11 <Wolf01> Still flashes the old toolbar if present
21:06:33 <Wolf01> Oops, missing a "_SCEN_"
21:07:19 <Wolf01> The problem is that I can't open the tram toolbar now
21:08:02 <frosch123> Wolf01: see OnInvalidateData
21:08:08 <frosch123> if (this->roadtype_identifier.IsTram()) delete this;
21:08:28 <frosch123> it's another "can_build" condition
21:08:50 <Alberth> andy, :) it's boring if you can achieve what you aim for :p Not being able to is much better for keeping you playing
21:08:58 * frosch123 put a breakpoint into the window destructor, and ended up there
21:09:04 <Wolf01> Meh... I even debugged that
21:10:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: agreed, unless the gap is too large :)
21:11:51 <Alberth> frosch123 / Wolf01 there is also a child/parent relation in windows that may close sub-windows in toolbars
21:12:18 <frosch123> it's no sub-window, it's the top-level :)
21:12:18 <Wolf01> The tram toolbar now works as intended, but the road toolbar still doesn't change the title like in normal game :/
21:12:20 <Alberth> it's in WindowDescription iirc
21:13:34 <Alberth> andythenorth: then you need to play longer :p
21:14:00 <Alberth> I spend several years trying to get all industries connected with cdist
21:14:31 <frosch123> Wolf01: STR_ROAD_TOOLBAR_ROAD_CONSTRUCTION_CAPTION
21:14:46 <frosch123> should be STR_WHITE_STRING, like in the other window layouts
21:14:52 <Wolf01> frosch123: do you agree if i change it like this? bool can_build = CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure(VEH_ROAD, this->roadtype_identifier.basetype) | _game_mode == GM_EDITOR;
21:15:30 <Wolf01> Ha! The power of white strings
21:16:10 <Alberth> we reserve black strings for dark magic
21:16:15 <frosch123> Wolf01: i would look for how canals do it
21:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so you're string racists?
21:17:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, we have many coloured strings
21:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what a typical racist would say
21:17:56 <frosch123> though we are not as colourful as tto
21:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> like an american slave owner would say "look how many black people i employ"
21:20:22 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: look up names of villages around sydney :)
21:21:19 <Wolf01> Ok, the docks_gui just avoids the "delete this", but I don't know if it's there for a reason
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21:21:59 <frosch123> Wolf01: there is this weird setting which allows building canals when there are no ships
21:22:06 <frosch123> the same one also allows building roads
21:22:10 <frosch123> but it should not allow building tram
21:22:33 <frosch123> similar scenario editor should only allow tram when there is some tram available
21:22:35 <Wolf01> But in SE should be possible
21:22:46 <frosch123> so, i think just "allow anything in se" is too simple
21:23:18 <Wolf01> No, I mean there's already the check in the dropdown which disables the button
21:23:50 <frosch123> well, this is about closing the window if the setting is changed or something
21:23:59 <frosch123> anyway, i think we need a new function to call
21:24:07 <frosch123> i guess that test will be in multiple places
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21:24:26 <frosch123> but no idea, may require collecting them first
21:33:11 <Wolf01> BTW, it's ok you can't build infrastructure for the roadtype, but tracks should be allowed
21:35:55 <Wolf01> I never tried, one player's tramways could be used by other players like roads?
21:37:24 <frosch123> tram is also not removed on bankrupt
21:37:32 <frosch123> but is transfered to OWNER_NONE
21:37:39 <frosch123> and can then be removed by everyone
21:38:56 <Wolf01> So, I don't have trams and I shouldn't be able to build tramways
21:39:33 <Wolf01> But I'm able to build roads even if I don't have any vehicle
21:39:47 <frosch123> because of town growth
21:40:00 <frosch123> but i did not invent that setting :)
21:40:34 <frosch123> maybe the problem is that that setting is older than railtypes
21:40:46 <frosch123> it already behaves weird with railtypes
21:40:55 <frosch123> and now it behaves weird with road and tramtypes
21:41:31 <Wolf01> Railtypes simply close the window directly if one can't build it anymore, but for both is just a gui problem
21:42:22 <frosch123> but it somehow tries to compromise between "player builds stuff and then discovers there are no vehicles available, so all money is lost" and "player wants to build stuff just to make stuff look somehow"
21:42:26 <Wolf01> CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure only tells you if you have vehicles for that transport type
21:43:57 <Wolf01> Yup, I noticed that with early HAUL
21:44:10 <Wolf01> No vehicles but still able to build everything
21:44:26 <Wolf01> Because it just checks the basetype
21:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> roads were exempt from the setting because it's most likely you'd want to build them despite not using road vehicles
21:45:31 <Wolf01> Ok for vanilla roads, but why should I be able to even build HAUL road? (not speaking for HAUL infrastructure)
21:46:10 <frosch123> yeah, in-game normal road is the only exception
21:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you could use the "can be used for town growth" flag to limit the exception
21:46:26 <frosch123> in scenario all types should be available which become available at some point
21:46:34 <frosch123> but also not those which have no use whatsoever
21:47:23 <Wolf01> andythenorth, with HAUL you used the same id of ELRD or you disabled it in some way?
21:48:28 <andythenorth> I don’t have any ELRD vehicles in Road Hog...
21:48:33 <andythenorth> so it won’t appear?
21:48:36 <Wolf01> Because I'm able to build ROAD and HAUL, I see no trace of ELRD and HAUL has id = 2 (while ELRD should be 1)
21:49:28 <frosch123> Wolf01: sounds correct, doesn't it?
21:49:34 <Wolf01> The dropdown already filters with available vehicles, the same should be used in CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure
21:49:43 <frosch123> ROAD and HAUL are buildable because some vehicle will be available somewhen
21:49:52 <frosch123> ELRD is not buildable because there are no vehicles ever
21:50:17 <Wolf01> But if I leave out the filter in the dropdown it let me build it
21:50:39 <frosch123> so, no validation in the command :)
21:52:54 <Wolf01> It would let me open the toolbar too, because the delete is only for trams
21:53:08 <Wolf01> So it's just a gui problem
21:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought it was meant to only affect the GUI
21:53:33 <Wolf01> The same check should be in the command too
21:54:52 <Wolf01> Eddi, the problem is that ROAD, ELRD, and HAUL are the same for the check
21:55:37 <Wolf01> (also are ROAD, RAIL, and ELRL, but that's handled in the gui directly)
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22:05:59 <Wolf01> We should get an agreement on how to fix this thing
22:13:14 <frosch123> no idea how far that matches with the current behaviour
22:15:47 <Wolf01> How it was the git diff command again? I already staged changes but it creates an empty file
22:16:30 <Wolf01> "git help diff" doesn't work -.-
22:17:54 <Wolf01> This closes the gui when I select a roadtype with no available vehicles
22:18:08 <Wolf01> (disabled dropdown filter just for test)
22:19:09 <Wolf01> But it's a duplication and I don't like it
22:19:37 <frosch123> we need a similar function like CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure
22:20:19 <frosch123> one which also accept "consider_current_date", "company/gamescript/scenedit" and "specific road/railtype"/"any road/railtype"
22:21:08 <Wolf01> So a CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure on steroids
22:21:10 <frosch123> then that function can be used in commands, gui button enable/disable, hotkey handling and ...
22:22:45 <Wolf01> I could start by moving the checking code into the switch, as it is different for every transport type (maybe ships and airplanes could be shared, until andy invents a new kind of ship)
22:24:22 <frosch123> Wolf01: i guess V will just make a landscape grf that swaps water with land sprites
22:24:40 <frosch123> so all vehicles drive in water, and ships are stuck on land
22:26:06 <andythenorth> ships are iced in
22:26:17 <andythenorth> mountains are icebergs
22:26:43 <Wolf01> I think it could work as water depths if you turn your monitor upside down, but it really breaks the illusion of all the other things
22:26:59 <frosch123> i was more thinking along pudding in vanilla sauce
22:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i had great fun in TTO with trains driving on water
22:30:37 <frosch123> i think that was also presend in ttd
22:30:51 <frosch123> so likely you can display "miscfixes" in ttdp and play with it
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