IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-02-13
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00:54:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you're the very first person who ever had that thought.
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13:17:03 <Wolf01> Bah, hdd fan is noisy, I'll change it
13:19:25 <crem> Isn't it a luxury for a HDD to have a personal fan?
13:25:09 <Wolf01> Well... clearly I don't have the spare fan
13:26:31 <Wolf01> The only size it's missing in my trash drawer
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13:52:41 <Alkel_U3> Well, after another HDD kicking the bucket I gave them a fan, although all four drives have to share. The 20°C drop on them at low rpm is well worth it, I think
13:53:55 <Alkel_U3> but I bought the wrong size, so it's anchored only on 1 screw (I really thought the case supports 140mm but it doesn't)
13:55:23 <Wolf01> The fan I removed was 80mm on a 100mm support, with only 1 screw too, I think it started to make noise because of that
13:56:49 <Alkel_U3> yeah, the pulsing noise from that is kinda annoying
13:56:49 <crem> noise is more important than hdd well-being.
13:57:56 <Wolf01> Let's talk about it, I would like to not download again 1.5TB of steam games if the HDD fails
13:58:18 <Alkel_U3> I had to get rid of a defective jet-engine-like GPU so it's still practically quite in comparison :-)
13:59:20 <Alkel_U3> and I would like to not have to recover the photos directory with ddrescue and testdisk, but that's completely my fault for not backing that up
14:00:31 <crem> steam games (and movies, music, etc, although I think nowadays people don't store them) are not things to be worried about. Losing unique data is worse, but that's what backup is for.
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14:01:38 <Wolf01> That's why I have a NAS and a backup HDD too, but since I have shitty(tm)-connection I would literally take AGES to download some games
14:03:02 <crem> Local backup is more risky than one might think. :) And not only because of things like house burning odwn.
14:03:05 <Alkel_U3> 1.5 TB of games? Well, that's a lot. I can see myself topping out at around 600 GB if I were on windows.
14:03:24 <crem> I lost all my local backups once when I divorced. :)
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14:46:06 <Alkel_U3> has it breached already?
14:46:30 <crem> This 'live' thing is from yesterday.
14:52:36 <Alkel_U3> ah, so it hasn't. Well, that's good.
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16:16:07 <Wolf01> Wake me up when the other animal fellows arrive
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16:42:34 <supermop__> is andy an animal?
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16:44:09 <andythenorth> all arrive at once
16:44:39 * andythenorth has Steeltown woes still
16:44:52 <andythenorth> I should call it Steeltown Blues :D
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16:47:10 <Alberth> changes didn't work out?
16:50:11 <andythenorth> I am being cautious because my test games have SV
16:50:46 <andythenorth> in all my games, I needed all the mines on the map just to get enough steel for ENSP to boost the mines
16:51:01 <andythenorth> and the boost wasn’t enough
16:51:23 <andythenorth> feeding the blast furnace chain is kind of like feeding a black hole
16:52:40 <Alberth> and I haven't even considered supplies so far :p
16:53:01 <andythenorth> the other problem is that steel has multiple destinations :)
16:53:08 <Alberth> but trains aren't very powerful either
16:53:10 <andythenorth> but cdist doesn’t work well with multiple destinations
16:53:44 <Wolf01> Wasn't that the goal of cdist?
16:54:20 <Alberth> I don't really see the problem, it just means you must make a choice where the steel goes to
16:54:27 <Wolf01> Then I should look again at the definition of distribution
16:54:55 <Alberth> maybe andy just likes having automagic transfer orders
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18:13:15 * andythenorth needs to get quicklime without coal
18:21:45 <andythenorth> both coal and stone are too contended
18:22:06 <andythenorth> I could increase the industry production rates substantially...
18:23:13 <andythenorth> chemicals is also very contended
18:23:39 <andythenorth> coal: two destinations, both essential to steel chain
18:23:49 <andythenorth> stone: two destinations, both essential to steel chain
18:24:16 <andythenorth> chemicals: four destinations, useful for ENSP chain
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18:32:29 <Wolf01> frosch123, I wrote some questions about NRT in SE
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18:35:30 <andythenorth> - try and reset the probabilities to give more mines, but likely to fail on small maps
18:35:58 <andythenorth> - cut out the hotels, building yards, stores etc from towns, as they consume a lot of the available industry count
18:36:14 <andythenorth> - make more cargos available at ports (import quicklime? Unrealism, but eh)
18:36:46 <andythenorth> - ignore some realism in required cargos at blast furnace, steel plant
18:39:28 <supermop_> as for last one, isn't bessemer process rivet counting the whole point of steeltown?
18:39:43 <andythenorth> but it’s a ballache to actually play, eh? :)
18:39:46 <supermop_> hotel/store etc gets a bit redundant
18:39:50 <andythenorth> lessons in reality never work in FIRS
18:40:17 <supermop_> hotels easy passenger bootstrapping for $
18:41:33 <supermop_> but then the passenger flow distracts from building up industries because you've got thousands of morons trying to go to a resort on the outskirts of a shitty village overlooking a slag heap
18:41:40 <andythenorth> could cut the coke oven, it’s wasteful of coal
18:41:57 <supermop_> steelmaking uses a lot of coal
18:42:18 <supermop_> i'd say burning it in power plants wastes coal that could be making steel
18:42:30 <andythenorth> I could cut food chain, but then Arctic and Tropic are borked
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18:43:04 <supermop_> cutting a chain in steeltown needn't cut in tropic?
18:43:57 <andythenorth> can still use Steeltown in Tropic though eh?
18:44:05 <andythenorth> FIRS economy != climate :)
18:44:11 <andythenorth> V453000: iz mess
18:44:18 <andythenorth> also dinner time soon
18:44:49 <andythenorth> iz boring to play
18:44:58 <andythenorth> especially with cdist
18:45:23 <andythenorth> cdist max 2 destinations per pickup station
18:45:26 <supermop_> andythenorth: tropic needn't have grocery stores
18:45:52 <supermop_> andythenorth: you can kind of get a few more but its tough
18:45:53 <andythenorth> making >1 pickup stations per industry is hard, when also has big delivery station
18:46:05 <andythenorth> supermop_: > 2 just doesn’t work
18:46:08 <andythenorth> like, not working
18:46:16 <supermop_> max 2 pick up stations per industry is the killer
18:46:20 * andythenorth has tested much times
18:46:28 <supermop_> industry will give zero cargo to 3rd station
18:46:41 <andythenorth> this is all fine if you use ships :P
18:46:46 <andythenorth> ships only = no problem :P
18:46:53 <andythenorth> with trains, problem
18:47:06 <supermop_> industry won't serve 3 docks
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19:24:56 <Wolf01> Ok, so in SE it whould be a bland copy of the normal toolbar
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21:19:14 <andythenorth> supermop: drop the hotel? o_O
21:19:21 <andythenorth> it’s kind of a FIRS trademark :P
21:19:29 * andythenorth thinks it should go from steeltown
21:19:50 <supermop__> from steeltown? who wants to vacation in youngstown
21:20:19 <frosch123> people with a secret weakness for steel?
21:20:31 <supermop__> the hotel is nice as a combined blackhole for food and alcohol, but store can do that
21:20:34 * andythenorth can drop alcohol
21:21:19 <andythenorth> coke, slag, heroin?
21:23:39 <andythenorth> vehicle dealer will never be used
21:23:45 <andythenorth> vehicles can be traded for other things
21:23:52 <andythenorth> no point sending to a black hole
21:24:21 * andythenorth rips it all down
21:27:17 <supermop__> black holes only needed if towns can't process town cargos
21:28:35 <supermop__> even then, if i play a game where gasoline is needed for town growth, i might build a machine shop in town
21:29:16 <andythenorth> so just black holes for food
21:29:22 <andythenorth> and goods, because it’s no harm
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21:31:22 * andythenorth waits for bundles to build new docs
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21:41:45 <andythenorth> could run the lime kiln on fuel oil
21:41:51 <andythenorth> saving coal for iron chain
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21:45:02 <supermop__> would be weird in ohio or yorkshire
21:49:40 <andythenorth> eh, the vehicles chain is too intricate
21:49:54 <andythenorth> is it steeltown or motown? :P
22:20:46 <andythenorth> there will be no other vehicle economy
22:20:58 * andythenorth wondering what to cut
22:23:34 <andythenorth> ah building materials
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22:37:50 <supermop__> bdmt always feel a bit odd unless a GS is needing them
22:40:45 * andythenorth trying to strip town cargos out of steeltown
22:40:52 <andythenorth> some irony probably
22:42:54 <andythenorth> supermop: vehicles currently require: vehicle parts, powertrain components, vehicle bodies
22:42:59 <andythenorth> seems a bit blah blah
22:43:09 <supermop__> strip the town cargos out from 1970 onwards - when the rustbelt economy collapses and people cannot afford town cargos anymore
22:43:28 * andythenorth considers ‘abandoned steel plant’ industry
22:43:33 <andythenorth> accepts: crack cocaine
22:43:37 <andythenorth> produces: nothing
22:43:53 <supermop__> whoa now crack is too coastal elite for steeltown
22:44:26 <andythenorth> it was mostly smack where I lived
22:44:28 <andythenorth> coal mining towns
22:44:34 <andythenorth> crack was inner-city
22:44:53 <supermop__> thing is - car plant is the one thing where the more complex inputs seem correct
22:45:11 <supermop__> but lots of inputs at the top of the chain is a bit frustrating maybe?
22:46:13 <andythenorth> need to decide whether to keep marine supplies
22:46:21 <andythenorth> then I know if powertrain is good cargo or not
22:46:40 <supermop__> im sure it was different in the uk, but here it seemed like the whole economy from the atlantic ocean to the missippi - and by extension the nation - from 1930 to 1970
22:46:54 <supermop__> was to make and sell as many cars as possible
22:47:28 <supermop__> everything from design, town planning, financial services, etc
22:47:34 <supermop__> designed to sell cars
22:47:55 <supermop__> other industries existed just to give households enough $ to buy two cars
22:48:23 <supermop__> USSR built tanks and we built sedans
22:48:48 <andythenorth> sounds about right
22:49:24 <supermop__> CAD and NURBS / b splines were developed to make curvy sexy cars
22:50:22 <supermop__> but the game might not satisfactorily reward you enough for making cars
22:50:54 <andythenorth> it’s more just that you can’t get enough inputs to do it :)
22:51:15 <supermop__> steeltown should reduce passenger payment the more successful you are at producing cars, so you destroy the market for public transportation
22:51:23 <andythenorth> the chain is too long and the wastage / split ratios are quite harsh
22:51:41 <andythenorth> so 1000s of tonnes iron / coal / stone go into the chain
22:51:48 <andythenorth> and 200t of ENSP comes out
22:52:07 <supermop__> can you inport car parts?
22:52:54 <andythenorth> making the parts is ok, can use rubber and stuff
22:53:18 <andythenorth> but need to split iron -> powertrain and iron -> steel -> vehicle bodies
22:53:37 <andythenorth> or scrap -> steel -> vehicle bodies (but scrap yards are low output)
22:58:20 <andythenorth> ‘pressed steel’?
22:58:32 <andythenorth> ‘Galvanised steel parts'?
22:58:47 <supermop__> bodies most generic
22:59:08 <supermop__> are you asking what to call it, or what it should be?
23:06:55 <supermop__> pressed is fine too
23:07:22 <supermop__> appending 'parts' or 'panels' would be fine too
23:07:48 <andythenorth> think I’ll leave it as vehicle bodies for now
23:07:58 <andythenorth> ‘vehicle bodies’ looks similar to ‘vehicle parts’
23:08:01 <supermop__> in melb i would always see adds for jobs as a 'panel beater'
23:08:11 <andythenorth> but ‘pressed steel’ looks like ‘steel’
23:08:24 <supermop__> which i assumed was someone who operated a hydraulic press
23:08:56 <supermop__> but i liked to imagine as a man beating car panels into shape with a hammer against a wooden form
23:10:08 <andythenorth> comes from ‘metal finishing plant’ now
23:10:13 <andythenorth> along with ‘pipe’
23:10:40 <supermop__> im not sure what the official US english term is, but i always think of the machine that forms the panel as a 'press'
23:10:50 <andythenorth> sounds right to me
23:10:52 <supermop__> and the action of forming it as 'stamping'
23:11:24 <supermop__> i never worked in a car factory though so i may be way off base
23:11:55 <supermop__> we call lots of tools 'presses' here
23:12:08 <supermop__> the thing that folds sheet metal is a press brake
23:12:32 <supermop__> put holes in the metal with a drill press
23:12:52 <andythenorth> maybe ‘powertrain components’ has to go
23:13:01 <andythenorth> splitting pig iron might be bad
23:13:29 <andythenorth> currently mostly engine blocks
23:13:31 <supermop__> is getting a bit esoteric/motown specific at that point
23:13:37 <andythenorth> iron + non-ferrous metals = powertrain
23:13:44 <andythenorth> could do without it tbh
23:14:07 <supermop__> i appreciate that there is a distinction between rolled, drawn, and cast products
23:15:00 <supermop__> cast metal is worth it to see crucibles of molten metal about
23:15:11 <supermop__> if you dont get to see it, not sure it is fun
23:15:29 <andythenorth> currently don’t see it
23:15:42 <andythenorth> also ‘powertrain’ is just ‘vehicle parts’ maybe
23:15:57 <andythenorth> yes IH metal cars carry the pig iron
23:16:10 <supermop__> yeah an engine is definitely in the realm of a 'part'
23:16:30 <supermop__> unless parts is specifically headlights and plastic
23:16:43 <supermop__> if it is alternators, should be engines too
23:18:19 <andythenorth> that means all pig iron now goes to basic oxygen furnace
23:40:09 <andythenorth> should be more fun now
23:41:06 <supermop__> non-ferrous metals just sort of hanging out there
23:41:25 <andythenorth> forgot to remove that :)
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