IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-02-06
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00:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: check what "p" looks like...
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08:57:15 <V453000> yeah I realized it at night when sleeping Eddi :D was missing alpha there
08:57:26 <V453000> so it's cr, cg, cb, ca
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11:31:31 <V453000> so with Alberth's optimizations and on work CPU, I got from 90 minutes to 10 minutes :D :D :D
11:32:05 <V453000> didn't even try to use the better pixel picker functions yet
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11:40:25 <V453000> best part is, I actually feel like the 32bpp looks uglier than the converted 8bpp XD
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20:47:21 <andythenorth> lots of activity :)
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20:52:21 <LordAro> "activity" == "oftc asplode"
20:53:16 <Wolf01> Wtf... is impossible to connect to a rcon server via putty
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20:59:05 <Wolf01> Bah, they even want money for the dedicated client
21:04:09 <andythenorth> how would it be if we had a bleeding edge, ‘things will break’ ottd fork?
21:04:18 <andythenorth> like a patchpack? Or like something else?
21:04:50 <andythenorth> nah, trunk there is some real effort put into stability, imho
21:06:02 <andythenorth> relative to team size and general open source attitudes, engineering standards are quite high for ottd
21:07:16 <frosch123> we already have plenty of patchpacks
21:08:17 <andythenorth> patchpack’s have low social capital
21:08:40 <andythenorth> unless I’m wrong, and your talking to JGR and Chill and co in back channels :)
21:09:55 <frosch123> chill was here, but only when his pack was history
21:10:40 <frosch123> anyway, patchpacks are not much about talking about code
21:17:32 <Milek7> i don't think there will be ever any new feature in trunk
21:17:54 <andythenorth> I am quite interested in future direction
21:18:09 <andythenorth> one option would be to change approach, and try to attract in new contributors
21:18:28 <andythenorth> another would be to accept it’s mature software, and focus on code quality issues
21:18:42 <andythenorth> or there might be other routes
21:18:43 <Milek7> and bugtracker is basically black hole
21:19:15 <andythenorth> being open source, what will be is what will be, despite any plans or ambitions
21:19:24 <andythenorth> if nobody’s motivated, no work will be done
21:19:39 <andythenorth> but then again, motivation is malleable
21:20:47 <Milek7> and even bugs aren't fixed
21:20:55 <andythenorth> e.g. although it should strictly be dying completely, Plone actually keeps renewing itself on community + releases https://plone.org/
21:21:39 <Milek7> it seems that current project goal is to make sure it works on new systems/compilers without touching anything
21:22:39 <frosch123> that is not the current goal, that has always been the goal
21:25:02 <andythenorth> I’m curious how we could attract people to work on longevity issues
21:25:08 <andythenorth> like SDL 2 or OpenGL or so
21:25:12 <frosch123> the only option to extend the game is to provide add-on interfaces, since no two people would agree on a particular feature
21:25:20 <andythenorth> how is that kind of work interesting to someone?
21:25:27 <Milek7> >It attempts to mimic the original game as closely as possible while extending it with new features.
21:25:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: it becomes interesting when you are affected yourself :)
21:25:44 <andythenorth> scratch own itch :P
21:26:36 <frosch123> people still port it to weird devices, the necessity for sdl2 is just not big enough yet
21:27:02 <andythenorth> I wonder about infrastructure
21:27:19 <andythenorth> stuff like code reviews, pull requests, have high impedance
21:27:57 <andythenorth> devzone borderline scares me, as it relies on spike’s goodwill to make it work
21:28:46 <frosch123> on devzone all repositories are decentral
21:28:48 <andythenorth> I have been quiet about the idea of moving, because I don’t want to seem like I am knifing devzone
21:28:59 <frosch123> what stops you to go back compiling and uploading stuff manually tomorrow?
21:29:18 <andythenorth> nothing, except I rely on devzone as backup strategy
21:29:25 <andythenorth> i.e. my SSD could die any time
21:29:29 <frosch123> where would you move to?
21:29:41 <frosch123> i mean repository is the least important feature devzone offers
21:29:53 <frosch123> and i would not know where you would get equivalent stuff like farm and eints
21:30:10 <andythenorth> I have been reluctant to say github, because it will look like a choice about vcs flavour
21:30:18 <andythenorth> and I couldn’t find reliable free hosted mercurial
21:30:28 <andythenorth> bitbucket used to have it, but I can’t find it any more
21:30:53 <frosch123> still, the repository hosting is the least complex thing about devzone (i believe)
21:36:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: is there a list of infrastructure anywhere? O_O
21:37:11 * andythenorth was trying to count on fingers, but ran out :)
21:37:13 <frosch123> on devzone or on ottd?
21:44:16 <frosch123> probably missing dozen of small things :)
21:45:05 <frosch123> there are 3 pillars :)
21:45:13 <andythenorth> I did a sanity check: is forums money-raising slower this year?
21:45:21 <andythenorth> by my calculation, it’s actually looking faster
21:45:29 <frosch123> in some year it took till august iirc
21:45:33 <andythenorth> it’s pretty unscientific though, orudge` might know better :)
21:46:02 <andythenorth> I started reading the ottd subreddit a few weeks ago
21:46:09 <andythenorth> it’s not as toxic or mad as I assumed
21:46:23 * andythenorth has a very jaded view of reddit, based mostly on secondhand info
21:46:35 <frosch123> there are only very few people there :)
21:46:45 <andythenorth> probably not a fourth pillar then :)
21:49:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: also, in past years ottd paid like 1/3 of the forums
21:51:51 <andythenorth> 2016 took quite some time
21:52:06 <frosch123> 2012-2015 or so, ottd paid a fair share, due to superfluous money
21:52:40 <andythenorth> orudge said traffic is down, but I wonder how actual ottd play is trending?
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21:53:48 <frosch123> no idea, we used to have a statistics page, but it broken for some time :)
21:54:27 <andythenorth> eh, while I was looking for Dalestan flames
21:54:34 <andythenorth> I read quite a few old threads
21:54:40 <__ln__> 22:04 < andythenorth> how would it be if we had a bleeding edge, ‘things will break’ ottd fork? <--- indeed a fork where the doctrine of maintaining compatibility with old savegames forever was dropped would attract new contributions
21:54:43 <andythenorth> the golden age in the past, wasn’t quite so golden
21:55:02 <andythenorth> lots of drama about relatively insignificant things
21:55:23 <frosch123> oh yes, the forums are definitely a nicer place these times
21:55:35 <andythenorth> less interesting though eh :)
21:55:45 <andythenorth> nobody is learning much about open source or engineering
21:55:47 <andythenorth> even here is nice
21:55:59 <andythenorth> first time I came in here I got trounced by fonso for asking dumb questions about cdist
21:56:56 <andythenorth> now we’re polite :P
21:57:31 <supermop> for any openttd related topics
22:00:23 <andythenorth> __ln__: how do you know that would attract contributors? o_O
22:04:38 <orudge`> andythenorth: It would appear to be a bit faster this year, but there have been a couple of larger donations. Traffic is down a little in terms of number of hits, but in terms of bandwidth is as high as it's ever been - lots more large files and so on I guess :)
22:04:54 <andythenorth> interesting thanks :)
22:05:04 <supermop> sounds like v's fault
22:05:05 <__ln__> andythenorth: i can foresee the future.
22:06:00 <andythenorth> super useful also
22:06:23 <__ln__> indeed. i just don't use the skill for gambling because it would be immoral.
22:06:42 <andythenorth> should I rebuild the openttd website? o_O
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22:08:28 <frosch123> someone (tm) wanted to rebuild the bananas website
22:08:38 <frosch123> another (tm) wanted to rebuild the compile farm :)
22:09:08 <frosch123> the master server is pure legacy, but it works
22:09:14 <andythenorth> $someone has a habit of starting too many projects
22:10:15 <__ln__> how many jigobytes of traffic per month is there on the forums?
22:10:39 <V453000> a factorio mofo convinced me to use some CIE colour wtf shit :D
22:10:55 <andythenorth> V453000: can you make sense plz :)
22:10:59 <andythenorth> what did you say?
22:11:12 <V453000> is some math shit for comparing colours
22:11:23 <V453000> more speficically CIEDE2000
22:11:32 <frosch123> i always do hsv, is cie similar?
22:11:46 <V453000> he says that this is way better frosch123
22:11:52 <V453000> but other guy was suggesting HSV too
22:12:03 <V453000> problem is I have to convert image to LAB first, and then use this
22:12:13 <V453000> there are many versions of CIE conversions but this one is said to be ok
22:12:31 <V453000> even with my current converter it's giving pretty good results
22:12:39 <andythenorth> V453000 has stopped pretending he has a swear filter
22:12:48 <andythenorth> my 7 year old reads this channel over my shoulder :P
22:12:55 <andythenorth> I have to scroll quick when v is here :)
22:13:18 <V453000> in fact, in many of the cases I like the 8bpp converted image so much that I am even considering leaving 32bpp out XD
22:13:24 <V453000> just the EZ is good enough
22:13:45 <V453000> let's see what the CIE thing does
22:14:14 * andythenorth off on a tangent
22:14:24 <V453000> another minor idea I was told is to use the current, but convert the colours to linear space
22:14:32 <V453000> whatever that means, just ^2 some things
22:14:47 <andythenorth> thing is, we could just make some bolder statements about OpenTTD
22:15:23 <andythenorth> we could just say fuck it, it’s retro, it’s pixels, and it’s not super-realism
22:15:41 <andythenorth> also it’s open source, it’s open for contributions, and it works on bazillions of platforms
22:16:04 <andythenorth> we could also say, it’s pretty much the most successful open source game, ever
22:16:06 <andythenorth> as far as we know
22:18:18 <andythenorth> could say there’s stable releases for multiplayer reliability, which get 1 or 2 features a year, and lots of translation updates
22:18:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: battle for wesnoth is more popular :)
22:19:12 <andythenorth> the art of this kind of marketing is not to look for evidence :)
22:19:25 <andythenorth> BoW is not more popular with me :P
22:19:49 <andythenorth> probably other things like Rigs of Rods and similar too
22:20:24 <frosch123> V453000: i guess the problem with hsv is that it has this huge arc of blue and a very small arc of red-orange-yellow-green
22:20:42 <V453000> honestly I didn't do super research
22:21:05 <V453000> but my evenly-distributed-cube works fine-ish, just want to give a shot to the CIEDE2000 to see how much better can it get
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22:22:16 <andythenorth> V453000: pictures? o_O
22:25:50 <V453000> special attention to the edges :)
22:25:52 <andythenorth> left and right are?
22:26:21 <andythenorth> but assume makes ass out of me :P
22:26:33 <V453000> right is after conversion
22:26:46 <andythenorth> honestly I prefer right
22:26:54 <andythenorth> I grew up with jaggy game art
22:26:59 <andythenorth> I distrust smooth game art
22:27:07 <V453000> it looks nicer to me as well
22:27:18 <V453000> in some cases it's a bit e
22:27:34 <frosch123> yeah, the edges are meh
22:27:47 <andythenorth> edges are meh on white
22:27:56 <andythenorth> put it over actual background, you might find edges help
22:28:16 <frosch123> anyway, what about the alpha channel?
22:28:23 <frosch123> are you dropping that one, or keeping?
22:28:36 <V453000> that it should be 0,0,1,1?
22:28:45 <V453000> or how do I handle it?
22:29:06 <frosch123> real 8bpp graphics have no alpha channel, only pure transparency and pure opaqueness
22:29:21 <frosch123> you could use the palette colours but still use alpha at the edges
22:29:31 <V453000> the image on the right has only 0 or 1 alpha
22:29:45 <V453000> that's another thing I was considering yes
22:29:58 <V453000> but having big filesizes for rgba just because of alpha edges sounds like a big thing
22:30:03 <V453000> if palette colours then full 8bpp
22:30:28 <frosch123> i do not quite remember whether we implented palette+alpha in nml
22:30:33 <frosch123> but grf supports it
22:30:49 <V453000> well this is replace only
22:31:04 <V453000> does that make a limitation?
22:31:17 <andythenorth> V453000: there is a phenomemon with no name, where artefacts seem nicer because they feel like a real person made it
22:31:25 <andythenorth> you have managed to automate that result :P
22:31:35 <frosch123> well, ground tiles should not leave semi-transparent holes :)
22:31:38 <V453000> andythenorth: the edges are actually not artefacts, they are a result of totally purposeful function
22:31:51 <frosch123> i think ground tiles are generally easier without alpha
22:31:51 <andythenorth> I mean artefacts = objects, pictures, etc :)
22:31:52 <V453000> normally I could just discard the alpha and keep the colour
22:32:16 <V453000> frosch123: I already postproduce ground tiles to never have alpha
22:32:27 <andythenorth> but purposeful is almost same idea tvh
22:33:30 <V453000> idk andythenorth, some artefacts are clear that it's done by a dumb computer
22:33:46 <V453000> or a drunk super artist who feels like it's his "expression" which is dumb
22:36:42 <frosch123> the win95 farm still runs
22:37:26 <frosch123> bsd stuff has lots of ifdefs in ottd, and afaik still compiles
22:37:51 <frosch123> i think there was one solaris guy here in the past 5 years :p
22:40:52 <frosch123> MagisterQuis wrote in chat in 2014 that he/she compile openttd on solaris in 2008
22:41:31 <__ln__> that's stretching the concept of 'the past 5 years'
22:42:52 <Milek7> >__ln__ indeed a fork where the doctrine of maintaining compatibility with old savegames forever was dropped would attract new contributions
22:42:57 <Milek7> it doesn't looks like there is problem with contributions, rather with absolute zero possiblity of changing something in trunk
22:45:57 <__ln__> Milek7: and due to the zero possibility (which people realize), many don't even bother
22:47:09 <andythenorth> loads of changes there ;)
22:47:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: the chance is zero for changes that only address a single user group
22:48:24 <frosch123> like people who want to remove hills and only play on flat maps :p
22:48:37 <frosch123> imho they should play factorio
22:48:57 <frosch123> btw. factorio lacks hills
22:49:05 <frosch123> it serverly affects replayability for me
22:49:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: it's not against nrt, it's a svn diff for some reason
22:49:50 <Milek7> and like these people who reads documentation
22:49:51 <frosch123> possibly the code was changed in nrt
22:50:01 <V453000> I just created 8bpp in photoshop
22:50:09 <V453000> it's using exactly the same formula as I do XD
22:50:15 <Milek7> and wonder why GSTile.GetTownAuthority don't get town authority at all
22:50:16 <V453000> at least it seems that way
22:50:23 <V453000> the colours are precisely the same from what I can tell
22:50:26 <andythenorth> V453000: there’s only so many ways to skin the cat
22:50:29 <Milek7> but i think documentation bugs only affects single user group
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22:50:38 <V453000> there's insane amount of skins of cat in this case
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22:50:55 <andythenorth> if you try enough, you’ll converge on the one photoshop uses ;)
22:50:56 <V453000> I expected photoshop to use something very fancy
22:51:03 <andythenorth> CIE _is_ fancy :P
22:51:18 <V453000> but photoshop only uses the RGB cube distance comparison
22:51:23 <V453000> which is very primitive
22:51:31 <andythenorth> it’s all just words :)
22:52:19 <andythenorth> Wolf01: 2017 2H technic: “worst thing ever ever” or “fine” ?
22:53:45 <frosch123> V453000: what do you say? photoshop uses the cube distance to get the same result as your cie method?
22:53:52 <frosch123> that sounds weird to me
22:54:06 <V453000> photoshop uses cube distance to get same result as my cube distance
22:54:20 <V453000> I am surprised it isn't using something super perception based and whatnot
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