IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-21
⏴ go to previous day
00:12:46 <supermop__> yeah adding wires to the tramway cursor sprites you can't even see
00:13:30 <supermop__> just need to find a good GPL spark now
00:17:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
00:56:56 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
01:43:42 *** chomwitt1 has joined #openttd
01:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: the dutch catenary grf pops into my head, but not sure...
01:47:08 *** chomwitt2 has joined #openttd
01:52:40 *** chomwitt3 has joined #openttd
01:59:08 *** chomwitt4 has joined #openttd
02:05:35 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
02:10:54 *** gelignite_ has joined #openttd
02:16:06 *** chomwitt1 has joined #openttd
02:26:33 *** chomwitt2 has joined #openttd
02:29:59 *** chomwitt3 has joined #openttd
02:32:21 *** umgeher_ is now known as umgeher
02:39:30 *** chomwitt4 has joined #openttd
03:09:04 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd
03:17:34 *** chomwitt1 has joined #openttd
03:22:00 *** chomwitt2 has joined #openttd
04:07:17 *** Fatmice has joined #openttd
04:28:05 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
05:19:59 *** Smedles has joined #openttd
05:45:31 *** XavierLight has joined #openttd
05:45:48 <XavierLight> Hey can anyone help me out with some plane problems?
06:41:47 *** Ethereal_Whisper has joined #openttd
06:51:15 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
06:51:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
07:03:57 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
08:36:40 <xdoL> guys guys can vehicle_cost & construction_cost be set abysmally high from the .cfg ?
08:38:19 <xdoL> trying to set a game for the long haul with really long day length and all, but the costs and interest is just too low. the game is too ez.
08:44:23 <xdoL> nvm found something that fixes my shiet
08:46:35 <xdoL> well the .cfg file wasnt as flexible as i thought
08:49:37 *** dustinm` has joined #openttd
09:04:39 <peter1139> there's stuff in there but i don't remember it all
09:04:48 <peter1139> but then there are already newgrfs for it
09:11:36 *** Progman has joined #openttd
09:37:59 <Flygon> <xdoL> guys guys can vehicle_cost & construction_cost be set abysmally high from the .cfg ?
09:38:08 <Flygon> Is this guy trying to follow Victorian Government practice?
10:29:25 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
10:31:50 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd
11:15:59 <Wolf01> Mmmh... forgot to cut a chunk of facial hairs...
11:16:32 <Wolf01> I'm not used to do it, I usually have a lot of facial hairs
11:20:01 <Wolf01> I prefer to not speak about that
11:22:21 <Wolf01> Btw... downloading Halo Wars... also job talk this afternoon... hyped as fuck
11:30:34 <Wolf01> Oh, today is even winter
11:35:38 <__ln__> how did you determine that
11:37:38 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd
11:49:58 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd
12:02:05 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
12:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> when i look out of the window, the side of the valley that is in the sun is green, and th side of the valley that is in the shade is white
12:03:39 <Wolf01> Same happens in my garden, the part in the shadow is white, while the part in the sun is green :P
12:11:51 <Wolf01> frosch123, I'm not getting the right gui sprites, I need to cleanup something?
12:12:22 <frosch123> i added the sprites to openttd,grf, but they are not used yet
12:13:00 <frosch123> though if you use roadtypeinfo.gui_sprites.convert_road it should be fine
12:13:06 <Wolf01> Ok, btw, I'm syncing the "convert-road" branch with the latest changes
12:13:22 <Wolf01> I see only question marks, both in the button and cursor
12:13:51 <frosch123> it worked when i put them in place of the autoroad button
12:14:41 <Wolf01> I'm still getting the message about missing sprites sterting the game
12:14:49 <Wolf01> Maybe that's the reason
12:14:53 <frosch123> ah, you need to select original graphics :)
12:15:01 <frosch123> i did not add them to opengfx
12:41:01 *** Progman has joined #openttd
12:42:32 <Wolf01> Btw, how could we define the compatibility between roadtypes of the same type? For example ROAD vs HAUL
12:43:16 <Wolf01> I'm trying to write a IsCompatibleRoad() function but I can't figure out how
12:43:35 <frosch123> i don't understand the question
12:44:09 <Wolf01> When converting the roadtype, we should check if the new type is compatible
12:44:52 <Wolf01> Not only between powered-unpowered, but also because they have different track system
12:45:07 <frosch123> the equivalent to IsCompatibleRail is HasPowerOnRoad
12:45:45 <Wolf01> Eh, and if you want to convert ROAD to WETR?
12:45:50 <frosch123> "compatible" and "powered" is the same for road and tram
12:46:25 <frosch123> ROAD to WETR is the same as rail to monorail
12:46:46 <Wolf01> Yes, but I don't have a way to check it
12:46:53 <frosch123> what do you mean with "both are unpowered"?
12:47:10 <Wolf01> They don't have catenary
12:47:17 <frosch123> "powered" has nothing to do with catenary
12:47:36 <frosch123> it just means whether a vehicle of one type can drive on track of some type
12:47:58 <Wolf01> Then the naming should be CanRunOnroad/Rail
12:48:33 <frosch123> don't invent new names for things where railtypes already have names
12:48:51 <Wolf01> I know they already are, but they are confusing
12:49:00 <frosch123> "compatible" means "can run on track, but cannot provide power, i.e. behaves like a rail wagon"
12:49:18 <frosch123> "powered" mans "can run on track, and can provide power, i.e. behaves like a rail engine"
12:49:39 <frosch123> since road vehicles have no wagons, both are the same
12:49:47 <Wolf01> It's like git where commit mean save a patch and push mean commit
12:54:46 <Wolf01> Also there's a mix of properties of the infrastructure and vehicle in the same place
12:55:12 <frosch123> same as for railtypes :)
12:56:11 <Wolf01> Yes, but it's not an excuse to avoid to use the right meaning of the words
12:56:26 <frosch123> i consider consistency more important
12:56:44 <frosch123> a single word never is fully descriptive
12:56:56 <frosch123> so you need to know the meaning anyway
12:57:42 <frosch123> i cannot tell whether CanRunOnRail means compatible or powered
12:58:01 <frosch123> so i do not see how it is better
12:58:31 <Wolf01> In fact it means both, that's why you need to have 2 functions with the right names
12:58:53 <frosch123> yes, those functions are called Compatible, and Powered
12:59:43 <Wolf01> But powered has "provides power from rail/catenary/magnets" in my head, because we are speaking about a rail
13:00:04 <Wolf01> But is instead a vehicle!
13:00:41 <Wolf01> For example IsPoweredRailType() is used in 2 different cases (both valid) while the docs tell to use it to check between vehicle and infrastructure, it's also used to check between infrastructure and infrastructure
13:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> what's confusing about that?
13:02:01 <Wolf01> Because reading the code and calling the variables A and B is easy to understand
13:03:55 <Wolf01> IsCompatibleRail(RailType enginetype, RailType tiletype); works even if you invert the arguments, with different legit results
13:05:12 <Wolf01> Calling them "cur_type" and "type_to_check_against" would be less confusing
13:05:30 <Wolf01> As when upgrading a rail you don't have an "engine"
13:05:34 <frosch123> i would claim the reverse :p
13:06:16 <frosch123> upgrading does not check whether one railtype can run on the other, but it is about checking whether "most" engines that ran on the old one, can run on the new one
13:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if you think mathematically, it's like extending a comparison operator like "a<b" which is defined on numbers to sets of numbers, like a < {b,c,d}
13:06:55 <frosch123> convert rail is about checking compatibility of engines to tracks
13:07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> an engine is like "a", and a railtype is like "{b,c,d}"
13:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> now you can also compare two sets {a,b,c} < {d,e}
13:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause> (meaning is: all elements of the first set are smaller than all elements in the second set)
13:08:53 <Wolf01> I'm not speaking about the functionality, I'm speaking about the names, the names are confusing
13:09:14 <frosch123> i don't think so, the names are fine
13:09:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm saying i'm not seeing your confusion
13:09:22 <frosch123> just convert rail uses them in a weird way
13:09:39 <frosch123> convert rail does a simplified check whether an upgrade makes sense
13:09:56 <frosch123> instead it should run over all engine types, and count how many are compatible to old and new
13:10:15 <frosch123> the functions are really about checking engines vs track
13:10:30 <frosch123> that's what the game logic uses them for, and that's what newgrf authors use them for
13:10:49 <frosch123> convertrail just tries to make use of them, when deciding whether elrail->3rdrail conversion makes sense
13:11:37 <frosch123> as said, the intention of convertrail is to check whether engines, which were powered before, are powered afterwards
13:11:50 <frosch123> it does *not* check whether the tracktypes are compatible, because that makes no sense
13:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yes, i think it's very much the same as what i tried to explain. the "normal" usage of "is compatible" is a < {b,c,d} where a is an enginetype and {b,c,d} is a tracktype. convert rail tries to extend that to sets of engines, so it tries to do {a,b,c} < {d,e}
13:12:52 <Wolf01> "IsEngineCompatibleRail", because with "IsCompatibleRail" I would look if the rail has the same gauge, shape, power type (magnets, catenary), which is the same of questioning if the vehicle which ran on the old one can run on the new one, but leaving out the vehicle
13:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not able to see what you find so confusing about this
13:14:00 <Wolf01> Languages difference maybe
13:14:23 <frosch123> i think the problem is that convertrail does not do an exact check, but an approximation
13:14:39 <frosch123> and wolf thinks that it would be an exact check and then complains that the check is not named like that
13:14:52 <frosch123> but it really is no exact check
13:14:53 <Wolf01> "The road in front of my house is powered" doesn't make any sense, I might answer "yes, there's light"
13:15:10 <frosch123> there is no exact check whether elrail is compatible to 3rdrail
13:15:24 <frosch123> some engines are powered on either, some on both, some on none
13:15:29 <Wolf01> The problem is that isn't the road which is powered, but it is my car which has power to run on it
13:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: no, that question doesn't make any sense, but nobody asks that question
13:15:53 <frosch123> yes, that's why it is an "appoximation", and not an "exact" check
13:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the usual question is "is this car powered on that road?"
13:16:25 <Wolf01> Nobody which knows the background of the functionality, with little docs I didn't figure out until now
13:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: and convert rail asks "are ALL cars which are powered on this road also powered on the new road?"
13:17:13 <Wolf01> For me "powered_railtypes" as proterty of a railtype didn't make any sense, and I thought it was related to catenary
13:17:24 <Wolf01> Instead is a vehicle property
13:17:28 <frosch123> it is not related to catenary
13:17:49 <frosch123> both compatible and powered are about vehicle -> tracktype relations
13:18:46 <frosch123> since tracktype and vehicletype definitions are usually independent, the vehicle/track interaction must be defined in one place, not in both
13:19:08 <frosch123> it was put into the track definition, and imho it is also a better place than the vehicles
13:19:29 <frosch123> it has has a lot more to do with which tracktypes are available, than with which vehicle types are available
13:21:54 <Wolf01> "bitmask to the OTHER railtypes on which an engine of THIS railtype generates power" and "bitmask to the OTHER railtypes on which an engine of THIS railtype can physically travel" taken those comments, what I understand is, a steam engine can physically travel in rail and elrail? yes, can generate power in both? yes -> compatible; an electric engine can physically travel in rail and elrail?
13:21:54 <Wolf01> yes, can generate power in both? no -> not compatible, why? misses catenary
13:22:19 <Wolf01> A boat can physically travel in rail? no -> not compatible
13:23:29 <Wolf01> Maybe I miss a train which can only travel in normal rail but not elrail
13:24:11 <frosch123> andy wanted to add that case for HAUL :)
13:24:31 <Wolf01> I know, and I didn't understand it
13:30:33 <frosch123> not that "only vehicletype" currently does not exist, but it may make sense to extend the spec to allow that
13:37:03 <Wolf01> Too bad is not so easy to provide meaningful error messages
13:37:50 <Wolf01> For example you can't convert a road with elrail (tram) over it to haul because a "4 stories truck will collide with the tram catenary"
13:38:32 <Wolf01> Also I don't get why a mine truck couldn't generate power on road :P
13:39:03 <frosch123> don't try to make ottd smarter than the player
13:39:33 <frosch123> obviously the catenary is so low that it will easily go under the haul truck
13:39:36 <frosch123> so, no problem with conversion
13:40:20 <Wolf01> The game should charge your company each time a haul truck passes over the catenary for reconstruction :P
13:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> whether haul and tram can coexist on the same tile needs a new property outside the rail-derived compatible/powered
13:41:25 <frosch123> yeah, and it won't be eary if you want to allow over-head tram over canal road
13:41:29 <Wolf01> As we don't have even vehicles which can run on both road and tram (w/o road)
13:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (and there should be separate properties for "can run along the same trackbit" and "can have crossing with")
13:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> for example, if i want a tram that can run along roads, and a speed-tram that cannot run along roads, only have occasional crossings
13:43:24 <Wolf01> That was one of my ponies for roadtypes
13:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> those are pure tracktype<->tracktype relationships, not vehicle->tracktype
13:43:44 <Wolf01> Along with roads without intersections
13:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think anything other than an X crossing will ask for "can run along"
13:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but i'm not too sure
13:48:54 <Wolf01> About road without intersections, to resolve the problem could be that we introduce phisical infrastructures like sound barriers or fences?
13:49:42 <frosch123> road fences like rail fences would make sense at some point
13:50:11 <Wolf01> I mean, placeable like the "one way" feature
13:50:33 <frosch123> that is what newobjects are for
13:50:47 <Wolf01> Newobjects can't be built on road
13:51:00 <Wolf01> You can build around it but you waste a tile
13:51:13 <frosch123> anyway, we don't stack N things on top of a tile
13:51:40 <frosch123> that creates a very closed system where everything depends on everything
13:51:44 <Wolf01> Also with 2 close roads you can't build a newobject inbetween
13:52:28 <frosch123> roadtypes can check adjacent tiles, and draw appropiate borders
13:52:44 <Wolf01> But nobody stops you to build a crossing
13:52:47 <frosch123> but that kind of stuff won't be player placeable
13:53:14 <frosch123> yeah, but why would you stop someone from building a crossing :p
13:54:14 <frosch123> well, we talked about that before. a "exclusive owned" thing makes more sense to me
13:55:03 <Wolf01> Yes, but still not sure, I would like to keep some paths open for the future
13:55:13 <frosch123> i think those things have to wait until we have *some* road and tramtypes
13:55:32 <frosch123> many of these interaction-checks assume some very specific types, and make no sense in any other context
13:56:17 <frosch123> the levelcrossing flag was also not added on 1st day
13:56:25 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
13:56:30 <frosch123> and for tram/road stuff seems to be a lot more complicated
13:56:59 <Wolf01> Some roadbits checking, I did many tries in these days with interesting results
13:57:42 <Wolf01> But without exactly knowing the meaning of the "powered_roadtypes" I wasn't able to properly do it
14:00:33 <Wolf01> Btw, the easiest pre-conversion check could be just "return IsPoweredRoad(A, B) ? IsPoweredRoad(B, A) : true;"?
14:01:24 <Wolf01> Derived from conversion cost
14:01:30 <frosch123> that is "IsPoweredRoad(A, B) && IsPoweredRoad(B, A)" ?
14:01:44 <frosch123> i would expect "IsPoweredRoad(A, B) || IsPoweredRoad(B, A)"
14:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd save the "no crossings" thing for a "pipelines" type...
14:02:19 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, no crossing means also no T junctions of the same type
14:02:32 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: then i would save it for a "no gameplay" flag
14:02:44 <Wolf01> Could be the right name
14:04:01 <Wolf01> ROTF_NO_GAMEPLAY... what if we want more than one "no gameplay" to stack?
14:04:32 <Wolf01> I'll just fall back to ROTF_ONLY_OWNER
14:04:49 <Wolf01> So one could do whatever it wants without external interferences
14:08:45 <Wolf01> I've looked at vehicle movement too, to do what I want the thing needs some (read "a lot") refactoring
14:09:05 <Wolf01> Or maybe some hiding of the array
14:10:30 <Wolf01> Got to go, I'll be back in the evening
14:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how is "pipline" more "no gameplay" than people running A-B connections with one single train and no crossings?
14:11:50 <frosch123> because i can safely ignore the latter
14:13:17 <frosch123> pipelines are also the worst part of factorio
14:13:31 <frosch123> though there are myths that it is changed to something different
14:13:38 <frosch123> though no idea what different
14:15:26 <frosch123> as myths go, it could as well just be the colour that is changed :p
14:19:46 *** gelignite has joined #openttd
14:35:01 <V453000> pipes are the same as before
14:35:33 <frosch123> wasn't there something about preventing auto-join neighbouring pipelines?
14:35:47 <V453000> it's been talked about but nobody did it yet
14:36:29 <crem> pipes? Is pipeline transport finally in openttd? Can I pump oil?
14:36:55 <frosch123> crem: there are newgrf, which add a pipeline railtype, and invisible engines that run on it
14:37:01 <frosch123> some people even play with that :)
14:37:36 <crem> That's not quite right pipes. :)
14:38:12 <crem> anyway, I didn't play openttd for years. Tried recently to play some scenarios, but none of them happen to have required dependencies available.
14:38:22 <frosch123> well, pipelines and electricity lines are even more boring than aircraft
14:38:39 <frosch123> aircraft are vehicles without track, pipeline/wire is track without vehicles
14:39:16 <frosch123> add belts with 3 lanes :)
14:39:40 <V453000> shame railtypes can't animate
14:40:07 <frosch123> we need multicore support for animating railtypes :)
14:42:27 <V453000> just check [ ] multithreaded game in game engine editor
14:43:25 <frosch123> artists with more hands
14:44:00 <V453000> I actually ordered a new pen tablet pc few days ago
14:44:10 <V453000> might start drawing for openttd when in metro/bus
14:44:25 <frosch123> is it table with display, or separate tablet and display?
14:44:26 <crem> Do artists for newgrf mostly doing pixel art or 3d modelling?
14:44:35 <V453000> basically a laptop without keyboard
14:45:06 <frosch123> when i used a pen, it felt very weird to draw in front of you, but look at some other screen
14:45:17 <V453000> well yeah that's what I have been using until now
14:45:20 <V453000> it isn't that bad tbh
14:45:36 <V453000> but now I will be touching the screen :) I can even connect it to a normal PC to only use the pen display
14:46:52 <V453000> crem: it depends, but most graphics are pixel "art"
14:53:08 <Redirect_Left> Is it possible to alter the production of an industry based on season
14:53:14 <Redirect_Left> well, months I guess, openttd doesn't know what a season is
14:53:41 <Redirect_Left> I'm trying to implement a theme park and other attractions GRF, that produces lots of passengers in summer, then drops to almost 0 during winter months
14:53:45 <Redirect_Left> as they much would do in realirty
14:54:41 <peter1139> what's the german version of "happy birthday"?
15:02:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
15:08:55 <ZirconiumX> peter1139: "Zum Geburtstag viel Glueck"
15:15:40 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
15:21:15 <V453000> peter1139: blitzkrieg
15:22:44 <frosch123> Redirect_Left: yes it is possible, alpine climate did implement that for farms, possibly ecs as well, and it sucks for gameplay
15:23:23 <Redirect_Left> as long as you're paying attention and set up timetables, shouldn't affect suckability really
15:23:46 <Redirect_Left> i can only foresee that if I (i don't release anything, so I) stop paying attention to date
15:24:08 <frosch123> the problem is what to do with the vehicles in winter
15:24:19 <frosch123> but true, maybe timetables improved the situation
15:24:42 <frosch123> back then there was only full-load, so either you played without fullload or vehicles were waiting at 90% loaded during winter
15:30:27 <frosch123> quantity != quality :p
15:30:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: supermop made lots of sprites :)
15:34:53 * andythenorth gets to end of logs
15:35:03 <andythenorth> one of those discussions eh? :)
15:35:14 <andythenorth> moar unitised transport, with constraints
15:48:11 <supermop__> pallet animate belts?
15:48:41 <supermop__> andythenorth: how to show power/not power on tram and road cursor
15:49:04 <supermop__> or just not show? tram depot cursor just shows a regular road depot
15:49:41 <frosch123> imho "don't show" :)
15:50:11 <supermop__> user can infer from context
15:50:37 <supermop__> just like most rail newgrf show plain rail cursor regardless of speed limit etc
15:50:53 <frosch123> i am unsure about the road depots in the viewport though
15:51:05 <frosch123> currently there is a road depot without catenary, and a tram depot with catenary
15:51:22 <frosch123> i tried to use the tram depot for road with catenary, but the sprites include rails
15:51:39 <supermop__> thats easy enough to photoshop if you want me to
15:52:08 <supermop__> other option is to make all tram depots look more like the train depot but wider
15:52:25 <frosch123> i would be less worried about adding sprites to the default game, if the basesets were actually maintained :)
15:52:38 <supermop__> where is planetmaker ?
15:52:48 <supermop__> doesn't he do ogfx? ish?
15:53:05 <frosch123> as it is now, we will get 10 reports in the first week that zbase shows a "please upgrade" message when starting ottd when there is no upgrade
15:53:30 <supermop__> i mean we could make a zbase extra?
15:53:30 <frosch123> maybe Eddi|zuHause finishes his patch that at least the gui icons are always used from openttd.grf
15:53:37 <frosch123> but for depot sprites that does not really work
15:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i what? i don't know that word :p
15:54:47 <supermop__> like is there a method to fall back to a different base set or extra grf if sprites are missing? is that your idea Eddi|zuHause ?
15:55:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i suggested that a few years ago...
15:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there was never any work on a patch as far as i can tell
15:56:46 <supermop__> otherwise i mean, its not really your problem frosch123 , if users complain about zbase, tell them to use ogfx
15:57:11 <supermop__> or to update / fork zbase themselves
15:57:49 <frosch123> yup, about 50% of people who mail at info@openttd.org do not get a response, because they do not duckduck for an answer first
15:58:07 <supermop__> really, depot building and depot floor should be separate sprite though
15:59:28 <frosch123> in theory one could mix the wall from the road depot, and the top of the tram depot
15:59:41 <frosch123> but who knows what that looks like in other basesets
16:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think something's wrong with mime types there
16:00:16 <supermop__> frosch123: thats what i am suggesting
16:00:39 <supermop__> but, one could remove the tracks from 49 and have just the bit of wall
16:01:05 <supermop__> and have game take the U from the regular tram end of line bit
16:01:16 <frosch123> yeah, that is also an option
16:01:30 <supermop__> probably most flexible
16:01:36 <frosch123> resp, that is what is done for roadstops
16:01:48 <supermop__> lmk what you want me to photoshop
16:02:07 *** maciozo has joined #openttd
16:02:50 <frosch123> i don't think we need new sprites for the basegame right now
16:03:01 <frosch123> maybe andy has new track types in mind :)
16:06:41 <supermop__> also i can live with transformer and insulator on top of my non-powered tram depot for now
16:09:42 <planetmaker> hm, I heard my name whispered
16:10:27 <planetmaker> no need to be sorry
16:11:08 <supermop__> was discussing messing with the base sets
16:11:34 <planetmaker> I haven't been quite following the discussion lately, I have to admit. Can you frame me in?
16:12:19 <supermop__> well base sets only provide a tram depot with both tracks and wires, and a road depot with neither
16:12:41 <supermop__> ofc a new grf could add a new depot
16:13:10 <supermop__> but it seems that the tracks should be drawn separate from the tracks
16:13:24 <supermop__> oops, tracks separate from the building
16:14:00 <supermop__> so you can combine from existing sprites to get powered road, or unpowered tram, etc
16:14:59 <supermop__> in this case the depot would take it's tracks from the regular tram U overlay, rather than as part of the sprite that contains the back wall
16:15:01 <crem> If I want to move old trains into "museum area", is it possible to disable "train is old" notifications for them? (for individual trains, not globally)
16:15:07 *** Sharkman has joined #openttd
16:17:17 <supermop__> sharkman - he left us too soon
16:17:34 *** Sharkman_ has joined #openttd
16:18:09 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
16:18:40 <Sharkman_> ive been looking at tutorials for newgrf's but all are just programming, whats the thing where you change the way the game looks?
16:19:18 <frosch123> and drew them as separate layer
16:20:09 <supermop__> you are making me redundant frosch123
16:20:22 <frosch123> i can draw some blue pixels :)
16:20:24 <supermop__> Sharkman_: also newgrfs
16:20:43 <Sharkman_> yeah but is there guides on making the graphics and not doing the programming?
16:20:43 <supermop__> but you must write some code to tell the game how to change how it looks
16:20:57 <andythenorth> to make the graphics, you just draw
16:21:00 <supermop__> with NML the code is less hard
16:21:04 <andythenorth> but with the right palette
16:21:10 <supermop__> Sharkman_: what andy said
16:21:21 <Sharkman_> okay i guess, i have no talent in coding or graphics, I just want to make toyland into somthing else lol
16:21:35 <andythenorth> ‘anything but toyland'
16:21:43 <supermop__> technically you don't need to use a pallette anymore, but it looks better if you do most of the time
16:21:49 <frosch123> Sharkman_: then use one of the many sets "turn toyland into something else" as base for your work
16:22:02 <Sharkman_> okay thanks, where can i find one?
16:22:06 <supermop__> Sharkman_: do you have some ideas, or just anything different will do
16:22:32 <supermop__> i think there was a mars conversion?
16:22:41 <Sharkman_> yeah ill use that thanks
16:23:03 <frosch123> but depending on whether you want to do landscape or vehicles, you can also look at the other vehicle or landscape grfs
16:23:09 <supermop__> you can look at the pixel sprites and draw over them in mspaint or something
16:23:23 <supermop__> if you want to make small, easy changes
16:25:10 <Sharkman_> how would i decompile the grf file into sprites?
16:27:32 <supermop__> uh there is a command line tool that does that, but its easier for most projects to just use the source
16:27:59 <supermop__> mars project frosch mention will have sources at that location
16:28:16 <supermop__> opengfx also will have its sources on that site
16:29:03 <supermop__> so you can just get a png of the relevant sprites instead of a huge pcx of every sprite in the grf
16:29:30 <MonkeyDrone> frosch123: is it possible to only change the time-line on server-side by patching it with longer days and client is still able to connect with it's standard client?
16:29:52 <supermop__> generally any GPL project should have the sources available somewhere or by request
16:30:22 <supermop__> and if it is closed source, you are kind of in a grey area to modify the sprites
16:32:19 <supermop__> today wife quits her job
16:32:23 <frosch123> MonkeyDrone: best you can do is to make all vehicles available (by adding 10000 to the date) and then using the "hide engine" option to filter vehicle lists
16:32:43 <frosch123> MonkeyDrone: the server can then possibly also reject build commands to build those vehicles
16:33:07 <frosch123> supermop__: moving to europe?
16:33:25 <MonkeyDrone> ah, ok. Thanks frosch123. I was just looking into options on how much you can modify the server without needing a custom client.
16:33:46 <supermop__> she is taking a different job
16:44:31 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd
16:47:27 *** BluesInTheNet has joined #openttd
16:51:56 *** maciozo_ has joined #openttd
16:53:59 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
16:53:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
16:54:11 *** maciozo_ is now known as maciozo
16:56:51 <frosch123> with the default catenary it is almost invisible :p
16:58:19 <supermop__> frosch123: often i have trouble seeing trolly wire over roads in real life!
16:58:44 <Alberth> as long as you don't touch them, it's fine :)
16:59:20 <supermop__> because trolley wire is not catenary - it doesn't have the extra catenary support wire - its just a thin wire with minimal support, so it often blends into the background
17:00:01 <supermop__> i guess most neighbors would complain if there was a huge mess of wires right outside their window
17:01:05 <frosch123> aren't overground wires quite common in us towns?
17:01:15 <supermop__> can't even see them
17:01:51 <supermop__> frosch123: they were more common until the 1950s. NYC used underground power
17:02:19 <supermop__> none of the surviving or new US tramways have underground electric power
17:02:36 <supermop__> SF has one line that uses underground cable haulage
17:02:48 <frosch123> hmm, how does that work?
17:02:58 <frosch123> how does the engine get to the power?
17:03:23 <supermop__> in SF the 'cable car' has a gripper that grabs onto a continuously moving loop of cable
17:03:51 <supermop__> grip on to move forward, let go to slow down - better for very steep hills
17:04:57 <supermop__> frosch123: underground electric, the tram has a blade that sticks down through a slot into the vault, and contacts a 3rd rail
17:08:40 <supermop__> the problem is of course the conduit occasionally gets full of trash or dirt
17:10:33 <frosch123> no leaf trees allowed :)
17:11:24 <supermop__> also the part in the conduit is wider than the slot, so if the tram breaks, you must tow it to the next access hatch to get it unstuck
17:14:05 <supermop__> the square panel next to the tram on the right track is the access hatch
17:14:29 <frosch123> he, "air conditioned" on the front :)
17:15:34 <supermop__> advertising works! in a hot city summer, air conditioned tram sounds nice - many subway trains did not yet have AC at that time
17:16:05 <supermop__> although the photo looks like early march, not august
17:16:34 <frosch123> too little green for august :)
17:17:15 <supermop__> so hopefully the tram also has heat
17:42:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:43:23 <supermop__> frosch123: alternate power methods for tram could be interesting
17:43:57 <supermop__> not much gameplay impact other than frustrating players who choose the method that later becomes obsolete
17:44:50 <supermop__> 120 years ago people didn't know that overhead wire would win, but any player would know not to chose the conduit trams
17:46:55 <Wolf01> So "a developer dog is not seen every day" "I'm a wolf" "you seem interesting, we'll might call you after holidays"
17:48:24 <supermop__> unless tall, oversized trucks cannot drive under trolley wire, then underground current is better
17:49:18 <Markk> Especially when a kid runs amok and touches the underground current.
17:49:20 <Wolf01> Underground road type, you provide only overlay with terrain tiles... I don't know how it will work on intersections
17:53:53 <supermop__> Wolf01: the idea is for trams that get their power from a slot in the pavement - was popular in the earlier 20th century
17:58:05 <Alkel_U3> well, modern variation on that is apparently emerging
17:59:32 <supermop__> the frnch system is cool
18:09:36 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
18:15:17 *** MonkeyDrone is now known as mi-gaming
18:19:31 <_dp_> hi, is there any grf for toyland industries, preferably ground aware?
18:19:42 <_dp_> like opengfx+ industries but for toyland
18:23:59 *** lobstar has joined #openttd
18:24:05 *** mi-gaming is now known as MonkeyDrone
18:24:08 <Alberth> I am not aware of such a newgrf
18:27:22 <V453000> I think YETI does reuse ground tiles _dp_ :P
18:31:56 <V453000> but in general newgrf authors are assholes towards toyland
18:32:00 <V453000> discrimination and stuff
18:32:17 <_dp_> yeah, YETI is my backup plan)
18:32:40 <_dp_> rly don't want a 200Mb download in one-time event though
18:33:14 <V453000> everybody should already have it downloaded Obviously! :D
18:33:17 <V453000> yeah I understand your point
18:33:46 <V453000> what's wrong with default toyland industries though? :)
18:34:33 <Alberth> they're in the wrong climate :p
18:35:14 <V453000> oh you want to move toyland industries to another climate
18:35:35 <V453000> btw are you aware that you can use japanese landscape in toyland?
18:35:36 <_dp_> I thought it's easier to move toyland indusries to arctic than arctic landscape to toyland)
18:37:43 <_dp_> Yeah, I considered japanese landscape but I like alpine one more
18:38:00 <_dp_> Also would be nice to have toyland industries as grf coz they r awesome)
18:48:04 <frosch123> Wolf01: so, they explored your github résumé?
18:49:00 <Wolf01> I only said I like to give you headaches with patches
18:53:53 <frosch123> _dp_: i guess easiest option with existing grf is to play in toyland, and add something like "ghat landscape"
18:54:54 <frosch123> or japan set landscape
18:55:40 <frosch123> hmm, oh, recent japan landscape does not work in toyland
18:56:47 *** staticfunk has joined #openttd
18:57:13 <_dp_> frosch123, I want snow! :p
18:57:34 *** staticfunk has left #openttd
18:57:35 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
18:57:43 <frosch123> yeah, then a new newgrf which enables toyland indutries in arctic
18:57:51 <_dp_> if it was only for removing crazy checkboard there is always temperate replacement grf
18:58:05 <frosch123> not sure whether houses would automatically accept sweets and fizzy drinks
19:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause> if they replace mail/food/goods?
19:01:41 <frosch123> sweets is supposed to be food
19:01:46 <frosch123> fizzy drinks is supposed to be goods
19:02:28 <_dp_> And I'm using swedish houses...
19:02:40 <_dp_> Well, was thinking of adding some houses anyway
19:02:51 <Wolf01> Strange, I always supposed they were a byproduct of refinery
19:03:11 <Wolf01> Aren't toys the goods?
19:04:54 <frosch123> the house acceptance is the tricky part
19:05:25 <Wolf01> We need a more modular system
19:05:45 <_dp_> drinks have same id as arctic food
19:06:26 <frosch123> oh, so the other way around
19:07:59 <_dp_> what happens if I use GOOD and SWET in my grf? will it be the same cargo or different ones?
19:09:18 <frosch123> in a newgrf you have to decide which to use
19:09:28 <frosch123> the duplicate ids only affect default stuff
19:13:42 <_dp_> What's pnml file extension for?
19:14:25 <Alberth> ie the C preprocessor merges them into an nml file
19:14:46 <_dp_> how it it different from full one? just odesn't have grf block?
19:15:08 <Alberth> the #include, and #define macros get expanded by the C preprocessor
19:16:57 <_dp_> oh, so it doesn't expand macros in regular nml?
19:17:27 <Alberth> regular nml has templates
19:18:18 <Alberth> and yes, it would be nice if nml had more macro capabilities
19:19:43 <_dp_> so, pnml is not a nmlc format but something that build system in particular grfs introduce?
19:23:45 <frosch123> cpp is used to combine multiple pnml files into a single nml file
19:24:10 <_dp_> print(open("toyland_industries.pnml").read())
19:24:17 <frosch123> you can find that nml file usually also on bundles.openttdcoop.org
19:25:15 <_dp_> yeah, I wanted to use include and remebered that I saw it there
19:26:13 <Alberth> andy uses Python to generate nml
19:45:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27702 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2016-12-21 19:45:40 +0100 )
19:45:52 <DorpsGek> russian: 16 changes by Lone_Wolf
19:50:17 <supermop__> so frosch123 are the gui sprites working in nrt now?
19:50:40 <frosch123> i added them and tested them, but the function itself is not available yet
19:50:55 <frosch123> except in some hidden wolf work space
20:03:00 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:04:03 <andythenorth> regular nml ought to have macros, or at least includes
20:04:22 <andythenorth> doing the cpp style includes is probably a trivial patch
20:04:51 <andythenorth> nml already seems to know about them, or at least it knows which included file to blame when a compile fails
20:05:01 <andythenorth> it finds correct line number, unless it’s make doing that
20:05:01 <Wolf01> Misses the last 3 commits
20:05:46 <Wolf01> I'm too lazy to connect the external dvd player to get the original graphics from cd
20:06:08 <Wolf01> So I'm doing with opengfx which doesn't have the icons :P
20:06:59 <supermop__> Wolf01: i drew ogfx icons
20:08:13 <Wolf01> But they aren't on the repo yet
20:08:18 <frosch123> yes, but we did not add them to ogfx :)
20:08:28 <frosch123> it's already enough to have forks for ottd and nml
20:08:37 <frosch123> ogfx can wait for trunkification
20:11:13 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
20:12:36 <andythenorth> ogfx can wait :D
20:12:46 <andythenorth> or other people can join the party
20:23:14 <frosch123> well, after trunkification and release we will have to close flyspray and infio@ for 2 months :p
20:23:39 <frosch123> zbase noobs very already super annoying last time
20:26:26 <andythenorth> closing flyspray is “probably fine”
20:26:38 <andythenorth> I am surprised anyone answers info@ :o
20:26:45 <andythenorth> but andythenorth doesn’t do email anyway
20:29:11 <frosch123> info@ is 50% legit spam, 25% real spam, 15% questions that did not find the forums, 5% opensource stuff, 5% other stuff
20:31:20 <Rubidium> don't forget to fork grfcodec ;)
20:31:49 <andythenorth> that is definitely at the top of the to-do list
20:32:14 <andythenorth> Rubidium: it works fine with NotRoadTypes
20:32:18 <andythenorth> you just have to use -d
20:34:02 <Rubidium> or rather the "must-not-use-white-spaces-while-developing" tool that is also in the grfcodec repository
20:35:13 <andythenorth> $someone told me to not bother using that anymore :)
20:38:56 <frosch123> hmm, i guess implementing RoadVehicle::GetMaxTrackSpeed is not enough
20:39:13 <frosch123> probably needs some cache invalidation in various places
20:57:03 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
21:13:26 *** maciozo has joined #openttd
21:18:01 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
21:31:59 <frosch123> which unit to use for roadtype speed limitsß
21:32:18 <frosch123> same as for road vehicles? or same as for railtypes?
21:39:09 <Rubidium> though to be honest, I'd use the roadtype one so everything roadtypey uses the same units
21:40:04 <frosch123> that read like a tautology :)
21:43:16 <Rubidium> but what's the pre for railtype units? It has a higher range that can't be used and lower granularity
21:43:42 <frosch123> railtypes use the same unit as trains
21:44:12 *** maciozo has joined #openttd
21:44:17 <frosch123> readvehicle seem to use the train unit at least for airdrag, though likely noone very cared about that
21:44:44 <frosch123> i guess i'll use the roadvehicle unit
21:48:48 <frosch123> Wolf01: what is the status of covert road?
21:49:08 <Wolf01> Same as the patch I shown you
21:49:10 <frosch123> the last two items on my todo list depend on it
21:49:32 <Wolf01> It works but needs more checks for pre-conversion
21:49:49 <frosch123> ok, i might pull it then
22:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: roadvehicle unit seems like the obvious choice
22:27:34 <andythenorth> unless frosch123 is there any NRT I can usefully do?
22:28:10 <frosch123> when can we play a testgame? :)
22:28:27 <andythenorth> we’d need a server :)
22:28:33 <Wolf01> I already do, and always forget that I can't move everything with haul :P
22:28:52 <andythenorth> also, the non-electric tram tracks have catenary
22:29:14 <frosch123> questions for the testgame would be: bugs? split road vehicle list for road and tram?
22:29:15 <Wolf01> Your fault, mine are right :P
22:29:22 <andythenorth> as they don’t provide any action 2/3 stuff
22:29:42 <frosch123> my non-electric trams have no catenary
22:29:47 <frosch123> that is just an a0 flag
22:30:09 <andythenorth> when was that implemented? :P
22:30:20 <Wolf01> Some time ago yesterday
22:30:22 <andythenorth> I swear when I added NRT to Road Hog it didn’t work
22:30:25 <frosch123> actually the default got changed again, now both road and tram do not have catenary by default
22:30:27 <andythenorth> it was on my todo list
22:30:49 <frosch123> i did not play with roadhog yet
22:30:54 <andythenorth> if we wanted to play a test game currently, it had better feature forests a lot :P
22:31:06 <andythenorth> there are no other HAUL vehicles
22:31:31 <andythenorth> and I need a non-electric tram depot
22:32:29 <frosch123> only works with original graphics
22:32:32 <andythenorth> I thought this would all have to be fixed in newgrf :)
22:32:39 <andythenorth> my todo list is much shorter
22:32:40 <frosch123> ogfx will draw tram track for elroad
22:33:08 <Wolf01> :O we have tramway icon
22:33:27 <frosch123> openttd.grf is complete :)
22:33:44 <frosch123> i think the tramway icon is by andy from a month ago
22:33:48 <andythenorth> this will be forum-able soon
22:34:02 <andythenorth> day after christmas maybe? o_O
22:34:31 <frosch123> when road conversion is done
22:34:38 <frosch123> the last items are: split vehicle lists?
22:34:47 <frosch123> no idea about the latter :)
22:35:13 <andythenorth> vehicle lists are not urgent imho
22:35:16 <frosch123> i won't be here 12-26 till 01-xx :)
22:35:37 <Wolf01> For compatibility (has power on stuff), do you want to check only same roadtype or both?
22:35:39 <frosch123> the urgent stuff should be done by tomorrow evening
22:36:05 <andythenorth> ai/gs can wait too imho
22:36:18 <andythenorth> it’s a few months until April 1, eh?
22:37:21 <andythenorth> so adjoining roadbits for non-compatible types
22:37:27 <andythenorth> that still need arguing out properly?
22:37:39 <frosch123> production varies a lot between months :)
22:38:14 <frosch123> adjoining can be done after convert road is done
22:38:28 <andythenorth> I’m not sure what the right solution is
22:38:36 <andythenorth> they have to adjoin, no?
22:38:37 <frosch123> the rail solution should work
22:38:46 <frosch123> adding roadbits upgrades to the better roadtype
22:38:52 <frosch123> or fails if there is no better ytype
22:39:25 <andythenorth> sounds like you have a plan
22:41:45 * andythenorth should do more HAUL vehicles
22:42:08 <andythenorth> it bugs me that I can’t implement cross-compatible vehicles
22:42:16 <andythenorth> wonder if I was doing it wrong
22:43:31 <andythenorth> I tried defining UNIV instead of HAUL, with ROAD powering UNIV, and UNIV powering HAUL, and omitting HAUL
22:43:57 <andythenorth> so HAUL -> powered on UNIV
22:44:05 <andythenorth> UNIV -> powered on UNIV and ROAD
22:44:10 <andythenorth> ROAD -> powered on ROAD
22:44:21 <andythenorth> and no type defined for HAUL
22:44:26 <andythenorth> didn’t seem to work
22:49:33 <frosch123> only thing that is missing is a flag or similar to hide a roadtype from the build menu
22:52:42 <frosch123> though ideally the vehicle-only types should not occupy one of the 15 subtypes that can be build on map
22:53:35 <frosch123> by guess would be that the vehicle-only types are also not passed to any commands, so they can use higher subtype numbers and are not affected by the 15 limit
23:02:54 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
23:54:47 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
