IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-20
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00:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> don't ever say that before the day is over...
00:34:34 <supermop_> over for germany and turkey by now at least
00:35:07 <supermop_> no long shot miracle in the electoral college here either
00:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and britain decided against allowing Jedi as a religion...
00:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (apparently a very important headline today)
00:37:07 <supermop_> yeah thats right up there with the other news of the day
00:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also a thing in switzerland
00:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and apparently something about liverpool winning something somewhere
00:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ... not sure why i would care...
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11:20:33 <Wolf01> I read about some shit happened yesterday :(
11:21:02 <Alberth> in the news? indeed :(
11:28:17 <dihedral> perhaps kenedey can repeat itself
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12:28:17 <ZirconiumX> LordAro, you around?
12:29:32 <ZirconiumX> Been a while, hasn't it?
12:30:18 <ZirconiumX> Still, I remembered this place!
12:30:46 <ZirconiumX> And even ~~not so secretly~~ named a chess program in honor of old DorpsGek
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12:38:33 <__ln__> hi, peter-increased-by-one
12:39:28 <dihedral> you did it ... again
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13:08:52 <ZirconiumX> Wolves don't quack :p
13:09:49 <Wolf01> They don't type with keyboards too :P
13:10:30 <Alberth> :O you CAN use a keyboard to hit a letter at another keyboard :p
13:12:28 <frosch123> it was added in r21842
13:12:45 <frosch123> it looks like it tries to optimise something, but i think it only triggers if all 16 railtypes are available
13:12:54 <frosch123> i.e. never if not all railtypes are actually defined
13:13:28 <ZirconiumX> Not much of an optimisation then
13:13:31 <Alberth> given the wide definition of the data, it's probably for the best to remove it :)
13:18:51 <frosch123> ah, it actually sets the never-introduced types at line 61 in the diff
13:19:43 <frosch123> so it kind of does work, but it still appears pointless
13:35:40 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27700 trunk/src/engine.cpp (2016-12-20 13:35:36 +0100 )
13:35:41 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Simplify railtype date introduction. A check that is safe to run every day before the last railtype has been introduced, is also safe to run after the last railtype has been introduced.
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15:37:53 <supermop_> let's hope today is a bit nicer
15:41:04 <supermop_> i guess i should stop replying in this forum thread...
15:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> well, statistically, if you have one attack, there's going to be more for a while. it's like earthquakes and aftershocks
15:57:57 <supermop_> i was planning to buy a new plain black suit this winter but now i feel it would be in bad taste
16:14:15 <Alberth> The "relativity" one is quite doable even, I have it
16:14:42 <Alberth> lots of grey tones, but no big areas with all the same colour
16:15:10 <supermop_> i always feel weird about buying puzzles
16:15:50 <supermop_> its nice for christmas, when everyone is visiting at home and you spread out the puzzle on a table over a day or two
16:16:15 <supermop_> and maybe then leave the finished puzzle out to view for a while
16:16:15 <Alberth> esscher wil not be done in 2 days :p
16:16:27 <Alberth> unless everybody helps, perhaps
16:16:30 <supermop_> but once everyone goes home and the puzzle is finished
16:16:48 <supermop_> it just goes into the box and never gets used again
16:17:24 <supermop_> occasionally my mom will swap some old puzzles with a friend so they get reused
16:17:47 <supermop_> but the cardboard doesn't last long enough to go through more than 1-2 owners
16:17:57 <Alberth> although after a few years, you've forgotten all about them, so no harm in doing them again
16:18:18 <supermop_> and it's not like a board game, where you can play them over and over, so it seems like they take up a lot of room
16:18:42 <Alberth> depends a lot on the board game :p
16:19:05 <supermop_> nice 3d puzzles that are made of wood or metal you can keep around for years on a shelf, but they are not really fun for more than one person to play
16:19:21 <supermop_> really just become decoration after the first hour or so
16:19:23 <Alberth> but yeah, board game has higher re-use value
16:19:44 <supermop_> only boardgame i have in my apartment is go board
16:19:58 <supermop_> but no one to play against in person
16:20:31 <supermop_> my wife's sister knows how to play, but has not since she was a child, so it would have to be a handicapped game
16:21:14 <Alberth> that's not a big problem in go
16:21:32 <Alberth> we could try next week?
16:23:28 <supermop_> you are in nyc then?
16:34:07 <supermop_> i wonder if my wife will let me buy another goban
16:34:35 <supermop_> i've told myself that if i make it to 8 kyu on KGS i'll buy one
16:35:28 <supermop_> but when i got to 8 kyu i didn't have any disposable cash, spare space, or a trip to japan on which to buy it
16:35:39 <supermop_> so i changed the goal to 1 dan
16:36:58 <supermop_> (the thick wood kind that sits on the floor - i finally have a floor i can sit on to play, but i dont think my wife would like a goban always sitting in the middle of the living room)
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16:40:03 <frosch123> supermop_: that puzzle will be very easy and boring
16:40:49 <frosch123> the "predictability" of the picture enabled you to immediately locate the position of single tiles
16:41:33 <frosch123> (refering to the gradient one)
16:41:51 <Alberth> stack your 3 go boards onto each other :p
16:43:00 <Alberth> frosch123: actually it depends on what's on the puzzle pieces, if it's the box + heap + white around it, ...
16:43:52 <Alberth> but plain white without any marking on them is also very boring, in my experience
16:44:10 <frosch123> Alberth: there is a picture of the content
16:44:42 <frosch123> you can possibly make a speedrun with that puzzle
16:44:56 <frosch123> i wonder whether one could do it in one hour
16:45:30 <ZirconiumX> I mean, you can get to 2051 with ctrl-alt-c
16:45:35 <Alberth> frosch123: I right, I didn't check the 2nd image. Very boring indeed
16:45:40 <ZirconiumX> So there's gotta be a way :p
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17:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> stack your 3 go boards onto each other :p <-- 3D-go?
17:46:33 <frosch123> then you need 21 boards, not 3
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17:52:58 <DorpsGek> frosch123: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
18:02:41 <Eddi|zuHause> man i'm such an idiot.
18:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried bringing raw oil to the plastic factory :/
18:03:11 <frosch123> isn't that normal in ottd?
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18:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> they were right next to each other, and i didn't realize i had to fit in a refinery first
18:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no refinery nearby :/
18:22:24 <Wolf01> Once I got 2 different translations for the same cargo (industry set and train set) and I didn't figure out where to deliver a particular cargo, I had to switch to english again (I was playing with italian because I needed to help a friend in coop)
18:23:05 <Wolf01> I think they were petrol or fuel
18:24:32 <supermop_> frosch123: the boringness of the puzzle is kind of the joke i think - it like a meta work on the tradition of doing a puzzle with your in laws over the holiday because there is nothing else to do
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18:45:51 <supermop_> i should buy them a puzzle that is simply 1000 identical cubes, to be arranged in a rectangle
18:57:35 <frosch123> 1000 cubes would work for a 10x10x10 cube
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19:05:07 <frosch123> wow, tram behaviour when encountering incompatible track is insane
19:06:26 <Wolf01> Yes, they seem to reverse in totally random places
19:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> can we drop the special tram turning rules?
19:29:36 <Wolf01> They wouldn't be able to exit roadstops at eol
19:31:49 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean, treat trams and busses the same way wrt turning
19:33:06 <Wolf01> Oh, turning on curves, I thought reversing... because how it is now?
19:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i do mean reversing
19:37:17 <supermop_> frosch123: how about tram derails and explodes at incompatible type
19:37:48 <Wolf01> Does it happen with trains?
19:37:59 <Alkel_U3> or it attracts a UFO that abducts it
19:38:56 <Alkel_U3> the aliens are always out to get your trams but the tracks are a safehouse
19:39:46 <frosch123> do we want to implement the "curve_speed" property? and if, how should it behave?
19:40:12 <supermop_> frosch123: overspeed tram derails and explodes
19:43:08 <frosch123> RoadVehicle::GetCurrentMaxSpeed() currently seems to do 50% speed when reversing, 75% speed in curves
19:44:43 <Wolf01> Dunno... cat guy doesn't even like speed limits too, I think he just want to have separated road types to not mix vehicles
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27701 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2016-12-20 19:45:37 +0100 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> russian: 37 changes by Lone_Wolf
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19:46:06 <Wolf01> You speak of the cat...
19:46:45 <frosch123> trains have absolute speed limits for curves
19:46:53 <frosch123> road vehicle seem to have relative speed limits
19:47:11 <Wolf01> Usually because rvs drivers are dicks :P
19:47:32 <frosch123> i think we should drop the curve_speed from the roadtype spec
19:47:42 <frosch123> seems silly to do the same as for trains
19:48:53 <frosch123> all the cool roadtypes we thought about do not have particular high speed anyway
20:00:17 <ZirconiumX> But is cat andythenorth?
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20:01:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: I don’t think curve speed is very interesting
20:01:49 <andythenorth> I could make a case either way though
20:02:02 <andythenorth> because RVs can’t have diagonals, curves can be quite punishing :P
20:02:32 <frosch123> rv are not supposed to be fast, and rail curve speed is mostly about being fast
20:02:55 <andythenorth> I am not convinced it’s a problem that needs solving for RV
20:02:55 <frosch123> so, i think to remove the curve speed property for roadtypes
20:03:12 <andythenorth> simple is better
20:03:18 <andythenorth> less things, more simple
20:04:05 <frosch123> i added ROAD, ELRD, RAIL and ELRL as default types, and adjusted the test grfs
20:04:12 <frosch123> however, the depot gfx are bad
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20:04:36 <frosch123> the tram depot has tram tracks and catenary in the same sprite
20:05:06 <frosch123> so the eltram depot cannot be used for tram nor elroad
20:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think it'll be terribly confusing in the long run to use "RAIL" for trams...
20:09:37 <frosch123> just think a LT in front of it
20:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that trams aren't rails, but that it's now doubled between railtypes and tramtypes
20:10:58 <andythenorth> that’s the advantage
20:11:16 <andythenorth> that work has already been done
20:11:41 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: including "TM" into every label would be stupid
20:11:49 <frosch123> that's redundant waste
20:12:04 <andythenorth> it’s spurious to insist on different identifiers, they don’t share a namespace
20:12:17 <andythenorth> and they’re meaningless and arbitrary, except for remembering what to type
20:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what if we introduce a tram<->rail connector piece? :p
20:13:30 <andythenorth> what if aliens land :)
20:13:59 <ZirconiumX> tram<->alien<->rail, then
20:14:32 <ZirconiumX> Not even the third kind can stop the express
20:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the rails will blow up, obviously... have you learned nothing from this game? :p
20:16:03 <andythenorth> we need ufo-types
20:16:17 * andythenorth has disasters off :P
20:16:50 <ZirconiumX> Disasters off is a wise choice.
20:18:34 <andythenorth> Wolf01: for real :o
20:18:57 <Wolf01> I think for real, but they don't show the crash :P
20:19:10 <ZirconiumX> You can see it having taken the stairs to accelerate
20:19:58 <supermop__> andythenorth: any pixels need doing for steeltown?
20:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you just need enough speed
20:20:20 <andythenorth> supermop__: probably :)
20:20:24 <andythenorth> but I am not sure right now
20:20:27 <supermop__> or do you need a new tram depot? i have lots of depots
20:20:36 <andythenorth> yesterday was work christmas party, today is…less brain
20:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have some concerns over the end of the track being a bit short to stop
20:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: well, that was not enough speed :p
20:22:31 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: wire tail end of track with reversed voltage
20:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: that sounds unsafe
20:23:09 <supermop__> motors in full reverse
20:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: you need an isolated stretch the length of the train
20:23:42 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: just length of powered part
20:24:09 <supermop__> also, i wonder if you can get sparks out of little model train wheels
20:24:34 <supermop__> have seen sparks flying from a slipping tram bogie once in melbourne
20:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but a simple short-circut is not enough to cause sparks
20:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to slightly lift off
20:26:12 <Wolf01> Considering that rail is not powered and it's entirely plastic, I doubt that you can use it to reverse the speed... or make sparks ;)
20:26:43 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: i meant sparks from grinding metal
20:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: uhm, yes, but your wheels won't last long :p
20:27:44 <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: i think if you are sending your model train through a loop you probably dont care about it lasting long
20:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop__: still, it's easier to get sparks from dirty track
20:30:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we had that already years ago :p
20:30:49 <frosch123> on icy mornings i see a lot of catenary sparks when passing the railway tracks
20:32:46 <Wolf01> How to keep sitches working in winter
20:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can't afford a permanently installed heater...
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20:36:54 <Wolf01> Lol, interesting find: "Why is the Eurostar so slow in England but so fast in France?"
20:37:30 <frosch123> trains are generally faster in france
20:38:19 <Rubidium> because it's using a different system for speeds?
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21:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm missing some context there
21:09:02 <frosch123> some guy missed the darvin award
21:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not context :p
21:13:17 <Wolf01> I think the idiot tried to steal some power from the buried cable
21:14:50 <andythenorth> he’s building a new grain store
21:15:04 <andythenorth> and he wanted to know where the power was, as they’ll need to avoid it when they’re digging
21:16:14 <andythenorth> or you use a locator :P
21:22:51 * andythenorth builds latest NRT
21:23:37 <andythenorth> lots of nice fixes
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21:37:29 <Wolf01> Ohhhhh, performance update for TF
21:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i noticed most of the delays when picking construction tools are gone, but otherwise i haven't really felt a difference in performance
21:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: also, i got my very first crash...
21:45:20 <Wolf01> Yes, people are complaining about crashes
21:45:41 <Wolf01> Maybe they are freeing too much memory :P
21:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the graphics got really flickery, and a few seconds later it crashed
21:58:44 <Wolf01> The gui seem to be more responsive
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22:27:34 <supermop__> andythenorth: i feel like messing about with some pixels
22:32:03 <andythenorth> supermop__: cargo icons? o_O
22:32:16 <supermop__> sounds boring but ok
22:32:21 <andythenorth> quite boutique, and I never have any interest in them :)
22:32:51 <supermop__> can't recall FIRS graphics standards for icons
22:33:11 <supermop__> you should kickstart an Andy Graphics Standards Manual
22:33:36 <frosch123> supermop__: how about a "convert road" icon :)
22:34:22 <supermop__> i just got mine in the mail
22:34:47 <supermop__> and a BR logo union jack, sample menus from 1968, etc
22:34:59 <supermop__> convert road easy enough
22:35:34 <frosch123> kind of both: original for openttd.grf, ogfx for ogfx_extra.grf
22:45:33 <supermop__> where can i find originalish pixels for extra grf?
22:47:08 <frosch123> i wonder whether we can use the rail icon for tram
22:47:13 <frosch123> then we only need a road icon
22:54:30 <andythenorth> supermop__: that is pretty epic
22:54:58 <andythenorth> an interview I read with BR design team made me want to be a designer
22:55:05 <andythenorth> when I was about 14
22:55:31 <andythenorth> TL;DR: ’everything is designed, people design it’
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22:56:34 <andythenorth> I was going to contact her foundry to license New Transport for our products
22:56:42 <andythenorth> but decided it’s too expensive right now
22:56:52 <andythenorth> we chose Lato instead, which is free :P
22:57:19 <supermop__> ive considered buying it now and then
22:57:27 <supermop__> but its sooo expensive
22:57:33 <andythenorth> any idea how much?
22:57:47 <supermop__> i recall like 2000 or something
22:58:20 <andythenorth> it’s probably more for my case, I’d be serving it in about 150 customer sites
22:58:49 <supermop__> basically i could buy half an espresso machine
22:59:10 <supermop__> or a reallly nice suit
22:59:25 <supermop__> and i have no business case for a signage font
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23:42:02 <supermop__> ok convert sprites done
23:42:11 <supermop__> for tarmac road and tramway
23:42:23 <supermop__> i guess will need a dirt one?
23:42:46 <Wolf01> Grfs would provide custom ones
23:43:28 <supermop__> frosch and andy are gone, so i leave it to you Wolf01 to be the nrt client on this one
23:44:08 <supermop__> if regular road and regular tramway are sufficient for NRT at this point?
23:44:21 <supermop__> idk if they wanted these for a grf or a patch
23:44:33 <Wolf01> I think there are also electrified road/tramway
23:45:03 <supermop__> vanilla tramway doesn't currently show wires on the gui
23:45:29 <supermop__> i can make another set of sprites for electric road and electric tram
23:48:04 <supermop__> orig base draws wires on the gui for ELRL
23:48:31 <supermop__> on the tramway cursor adding wires will make it basically just a grey blob
23:48:59 <supermop__> I can use the blue spark like in ogfx, but that is out of style for orig
23:50:56 <supermop__> hmm ogfx doesn't use the blue spark either... that must have been a different rail grf i was thinking of
23:51:13 <Wolf01> I don't know, you and andy are the graphics geniuses :P
23:53:48 <supermop__> blue spark is clearly the graphically superior option
23:54:03 <supermop__> but people like original graphics because it looks original
23:54:17 <supermop__> so breaking that style ruins the point
23:56:50 <supermop__> huh, now i can't recall which rail grf uses a spark in gui
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