IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-18
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01:08:42 <lorran78> i installed all tools to compile
01:09:03 <lorran78> how can i use make with makefile from the grf source?
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01:46:25 <lorran78> i have that error with "make --makefile=(file)" ->"/bin/bash: cc: command not found"
01:52:38 <glx> means it didn't find cc.exe
01:52:59 <glx> I think you can edit makefile to use gcc instead
01:58:49 <glx> and usually "make" should be enough, unless your makefile is not "makefile"
01:58:50 <lorran78> hum how can i recognise the line with cc error?
02:00:34 <glx> I guess it's around .pnml stuff
02:00:46 <glx> gcc is used to preprocess
02:12:33 <lorran78> it's in a pnml you mean or in makefile where pnml is written?
02:14:20 <lorran78> after that error i have "make: *** [mynewgrf.nml] Error 127"
02:15:49 <glx> I'm not a nml specialist, maybe ask tomorrow when they are awake
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02:18:04 <lorran78> i have a strange question now :p
02:19:20 <lorran78> is it possible to put the item transmiter (non destructible item) in the construction item (to prevent some place from industries arrival)
02:19:32 <lorran78> and so make it destructible :p
02:20:06 <lorran78> and then destroy things?
02:20:19 <lorran78> even non destructible?
02:21:38 <glx> I can't remember if magic bulldozer can remove undestructible stuff
02:22:47 <lorran78> magic bulldozer haha :p
02:23:11 <glx> but it's highly recommended to only have it activated on paused game :)
02:24:17 <lorran78> how put this in game?
02:24:45 <glx> top of the page in second link
02:26:39 <lorran78> then maybe it will be easier to cheat to back in time lol
02:26:45 <lorran78> and then have the first train :p
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03:00:32 <glx> no, when you are kicked you know it
03:01:10 *** lorran78 was kicked by DorpsGek (just a test)
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10:12:16 <andythenorth> coop jenkins hates me :)
10:12:28 <andythenorth> I have pushed a branch that I know won’t build there
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10:20:49 <lorran78> i have almost done my new grf from opengfx+ trains, i installed all tools to compile a new nml but now i have problem with using "make" it says "cc" not found something like that
10:21:25 <andythenorth> paste the error?
10:21:26 <lorran78> don't know where change cc to gcc someone told me to do that
10:22:45 <Alberth> oh, maybe it works anyway.. try CC=gcc make
10:23:18 <lorran78> lol seems the space in the folder was a prob
10:23:47 <lorran78> maybe ok now it's processing
10:24:06 <Alberth> yeah, filenames with spaces are confusing, don't know why people do that
10:24:21 <lorran78> juste "my documents" :p
10:24:30 <lorran78> because i put the whole folder
10:24:54 <lorran78> is it normal it doesn't use cache anymore?
10:25:04 <Alberth> it's still confusing, if you list the contents at a console you get "my" "documents"
10:25:12 <Alberth> now do you have 2 files or just one?
10:26:48 <lorran78> make --makefile=makefile then it seems the command "nmlc opengfx+trains.nml" automatic
10:27:27 <lorran78> and it's longer because it doesn't use cache anymore
10:27:46 <lorran78> processing... i hope it will be ok
10:30:23 <Alberth> have a tea or coffee while you let the machine compute
10:35:48 <andythenorth> it _should_ use the nml cache after the first run
10:36:04 <andythenorth> there are some notes about make being slow under mingw also
10:36:09 <andythenorth> no known solution
10:37:03 <lorran78> yes but not this time the cache
10:37:14 <lorran78> i have my first grf i think :p
10:38:02 <lorran78> make made me a folder with the new grf inside
10:38:11 <lorran78> and the grf and a tar file
10:39:41 <lorran78> my changes don't work :(
10:39:53 <lorran78> but the grf is not same size
10:40:33 <Alberth> sure you don't load the old one?
10:40:54 <Alberth> run openttd with -d grf=4
10:41:08 <Alberth> gives a dump of where it finds/loads grfs
10:41:29 <Alberth> you may want to save output to a file :)
10:41:47 <lorran78> should i remove the old nml file in the folder?
10:42:02 <lorran78> i saw no new nml was created is it normal?
10:42:08 <Alberth> nml doesn't matter, openttd doesn't know nml
10:42:45 <Alberth> oh, make checks if one of its sources has changed, if not, it skips rebuilding the same file again
10:43:28 <Alberth> but it's safe to either 'touch' one source file, or delete the destination file
10:44:57 <Alberth> you can ask make why it skips things, but output is usually too long to read :)
10:45:07 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 35 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
10:45:41 <Alberth> it's not even afternoon yet!
10:46:25 <andythenorth> 14 hours is plenty of sleeping time :)
10:48:02 <lorran78> if i delete the nml file then i have error
10:48:29 <lorran78> [CPP] ogfx-trains.nml /bin/bash: cc: command not found make: *** [ogfx-trains.nml] Error 127
10:49:00 <lorran78> but it's not my nml only my pnml :p
10:49:16 <lorran78> nevermind or something wrong?
10:49:22 <Alberth> it concluded it needs to run the C pre-preprocessor again to construct the nml file from its *.pnml sources
10:49:36 <Alberth> except you don't have a 'cc' for that
10:49:54 <Alberth> does CC=gcc make --makefile=makefile work?
10:50:21 <Alberth> CC=gcc basically says "for cc, use gcc"
10:50:37 <lorran78> it's strange when i have the original nml file there is no more "cc" error
10:50:59 <Alberth> it checks time stamps of all *.pnml files
10:51:10 <Alberth> it checks timestamp of the destination .nml
10:51:32 <Alberth> if the latter is younger than all the former, it skips building the nml
10:51:42 <Alberth> and never reaches the point of needing cc
10:52:14 <lorran78> but i deleted the pnml which was near the nml
10:52:30 <lorran78> ogfx-trains.pnml(something like that)
10:52:47 <lorran78> now it used the cache
10:53:08 <Alberth> no doubt make looked for a way to create that file again, and failed
10:54:10 <Alberth> maybe it pulled the file from the VCS :)
10:56:11 <lorran78> hum i downloaded all grf from online content and i can't find them
10:56:41 <Alberth> all grf? that's pretty useless
10:56:51 <lorran78> where are the downloaded grf?
10:56:58 <Alberth> you likely only need a few
10:57:01 <lorran78> yes i know i wanted to test something :p
10:57:36 <Alberth> don't know where they are at windows, but the README file of OpenTTD can tell you
10:57:39 <lorran78> maybe i take the original grf i want to move them somewhere else
10:58:27 <Alberth> if you changed grfid, you should not have a problem with existing other grfs
10:58:36 <Alberth> unless there is a conflict in IDs
10:59:20 <Alberth> ok, so does it show up if you select it in the newgrf window?
10:59:51 <lorran78> yes i changed to MZ+0
11:00:11 <lorran78> i think i select my own but don't know how to be sure
11:01:46 <lorran78> tell me if my changes are ok to introduce the train before the original date
11:01:48 <lorran78> item(FEAT_TRAINS, kirbypaul) { property { sprite_id: SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN; // We have our own sprite misc_flags: bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP, TRAIN_FLAG_2CC); introduction_date: date(1, 1, 1); } graphics { default: kirbypaul_default_indepot_switch; purchase: kirbypaul_default_switch_gui; } }
11:02:15 <Alberth> use a pastebin, like paste.openttdcoop.org
11:02:28 <lorran78> oh yes here it's weird
11:04:09 <Alberth> you can try a less drastic change first, like 1975 instead of 1925
11:05:09 <Alberth> hmm, you don't make a copy first?
11:06:42 <lorran78> i want to start on year 0 :p
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11:07:27 <lorran78> i add 100 year between all trains but no train works
11:07:45 <Wolf01> "When I open a particular page in the browser the game fps drops" "change browser"...
11:08:56 <Alberth> "When I open a browser, it eats 2GB memory"
11:09:24 <Wolf01> I have 16GB for that :P
11:09:52 <Alberth> lorran78: well, first have something that works at all, I think :)
11:09:58 <Wolf01> Game's rendering is broken as shit (transport fever fyi)
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11:12:12 <andythenorth> Alberth: if game had ’Tram’ and ‘Electric Tram’…what would ‘Tram’ refer to? o_O
11:14:28 <Alberth> I'd pick the former, but I very much rely on proper naming of things
11:14:59 <andythenorth> in UK most trams would be electric by default
11:15:03 <Alberth> I can see some room for confusion there :p
11:15:07 <andythenorth> tram kind of means ‘electric’
11:15:15 <andythenorth> but ‘Non-Electric Tram’ is ugly
11:15:58 <Alberth> ie, it's also not "Non-maglev train"
11:16:29 <Alberth> Non-diesel-electric-monorail-maglev train
11:16:31 <Wolf01> Tram is the standard tram
11:16:38 <andythenorth> ‘Self-Propelled Tram’?
11:16:46 <Wolf01> Electric, with catenary
11:17:16 <andythenorth> try it for yourself :)
11:17:27 <Wolf01> It's the same problem about elrail
11:17:53 <Wolf01> At the beginning we had electric trains running on normal rails
11:18:01 <Wolf01> Then catenary popped out
11:18:19 <Alberth> implementing that was a mistake :)
11:18:27 <Wolf01> Now we started with catenary, then no-catenary popped out
11:19:00 <Wolf01> The right solution would have been to make catenary as infrastructure and not as another rail/road type
11:22:32 <andythenorth> that ship sailed :)
11:22:38 <andythenorth> it may or may not have been electric :P
11:24:16 <Wolf01> I tried to make it non-electric, so the electric one had to be added with grf, but frosh changed it again to electric to not break compatibility/graphics with existing grfs
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11:45:03 <andythenorth> that means we need some way to refer to unpowered tramway
11:46:16 <Alberth> POTT (plain old tram tracks)
11:57:55 <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/a/FwkeC also, sometimes closing OTTD (with the "X" button) while debugging it gives this error, it started to do it about a week ago and happened just one or two times after every build... should I change the web browser?
11:57:56 <__ln__> other than that, is transport fever a good game, worth the 25€?
12:00:19 <Wolf01> It lacks many features even to make it work (for example you can only give load orders, no leave empty), maintainance works by replacing the whole consists, no min bank balance to autoreplace, capacities fucked up and mods try to make them worse
12:00:56 * andythenorth would have tried something different than 3D reimplementation of Transport Tycoon
12:01:15 <andythenorth> Factorio is more ‘interesting’ than Train Fever, even though I won’t play it
12:01:47 <Wolf01> Train fever, as transport fever is just a train fever with ships and aircrafts, had some of these bug fixed, like the terrain filling half of the tunnel entrances
12:02:59 <__ln__> the plural of aircraft is aircraft unless you work in the airplane industry
12:05:38 <Wolf01> I always used aircraft as synonym of airplane
12:06:19 * andythenorth ponders a better OpenTTD
12:06:39 <andythenorth> - all vehicles inherently moddable in game by player (as a type, not individually)
12:06:57 <andythenorth> - not much focus on cities or landscape
12:07:13 <andythenorth> - optional ‘drive the vehicles’ stupid mode
12:07:21 <Wolf01> You want a puzzle game?
12:07:49 <andythenorth> I had the idea before I saw Scrap Mechanic, but eh, something like Scrap Mechanic, but with a fleet of vehicles, and goals
12:08:43 <andythenorth> Scrap Mechanic + Euro Truck Simulator + Transport Tycoon
12:11:39 <andythenorth> X + Y + Z is the worst way to explain any creative concept, ever :D
12:11:45 <__ln__> Wolf01: an aircraft can be a helicopter or a balloon
12:15:51 <Wolf01> Yes, all bops are flytz and all flytz are zops, but not all zops are bops
12:16:48 <lorran78> sorry i was afk eating :p
12:20:17 <andythenorth> eh so the roads I want in Hog are probably not the dirt roads some people envisage
12:20:31 <andythenorth> should I use HAUL? :P
12:22:37 <andythenorth> the local milk truck is not allowed on a haul road
12:23:40 <andythenorth> 300t trucks doing 45mph don’t mix with small types
12:27:52 <Wolf01> Totally truck's fault, it's always truck's fault
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12:32:06 <lorran78> i can't find all downloaded grf from inside ottd :/
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12:43:40 <lorran78> i am now sure that i test my grf and the first train is always in 1925
12:43:48 <lorran78> what have i done wrong?
12:49:39 <lorran78> i tested 1935 for the kirby but it's same windows first vehicule in 1925...
12:49:57 <lorran78> my command should work or not in the pnml?
12:58:15 <Alberth> pnml is collected into nml
12:58:19 <Alberth> open the nml file to check
12:58:48 <Alberth> I'd say the change is not working, something else is needed
12:59:12 <Alberth> unfortunately, I have no idea what, you need someone that understand newgrfs and/or nml better
12:59:39 <lorran78> suppose noone here can help?
12:59:52 <andythenorth> there will be an nml file somewhere
12:59:56 <andythenorth> compiled from the pnml
13:00:06 <andythenorth> open that, and search for ‘1935’
13:00:44 <lorran78> if i have good memory alberth told me that there was no "introduction_date" in the pnml
13:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: you need to install all of MinGW, not just "make"...
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13:01:49 <lorran78> i checked base for mingw and msys base too
13:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you need the compiler
13:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> or at least the preprocessor of the compiler
13:02:21 <lorran78> ok then i check what?
13:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and it must be in your path
13:07:00 <lorran78> i must check all in mingw then?
13:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: no, it's probably not in your PATH
13:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> check at the end of that page under "common errors"
13:12:27 <lorran78> i am reading and reading and i don't see what is wrong :/
13:15:34 <lorran78> i think the cc command is the problem
13:15:45 <lorran78> if i delete the nml it is missing
13:16:42 <lorran78> what line must i change to use gcc and not cc?
13:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> what happens when you type "gcc -v" at the bash prompt?
13:22:16 <lorran78> should i let the pnml which is not in src folder?
13:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you type "cc -v"?
13:23:20 <Eddi|zuHause> then try "CC=gcc make"
13:23:43 <andythenorth> currently splits trams / electric trams
13:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (note that capital C are important)
13:23:53 <andythenorth> although that might need rethinking w.r.t label and name
13:24:22 <lorran78> not possible "CC=gcc make"
13:30:32 <lorran78> i test if it's ok :p
13:31:23 <lorran78> strange mine is smaller with all my new commands :)
13:31:37 <lorran78> i launch make --makefile makefile now for the grf
13:34:19 <lorran78> i must use bash to use gcc when cc is usefull?
13:37:51 <lorran78> is there a size limit for the cities?
13:38:55 <Alberth> all tiles of the map?
13:39:20 <lorran78> and is there a way to build non destructible buildings (i don't really want to use cheat code to destroy industries)
13:40:52 <Alberth> I don't understand how "build" and "destroy" can be combined like that :)
13:41:27 <lorran78> build transmiter (i think it's the name in english version)
13:41:49 <Alberth> at least in the scenario editor
13:41:55 <Alberth> in-game, I don't know
13:42:09 <Alberth> but you can build objects if you load an object grf
13:42:33 <lorran78> and i found a grf to modify industries mechanic
13:42:39 <lorran78> but it doesn't work :/
13:42:56 <lorran78> Modify_industries.grf
13:44:08 <Alberth> there is FIRS, ECS, and Yeti as alternative industry sets
13:44:31 <andythenorth> and manual industries, SPI, and Oz Industries
13:44:41 <Alberth> and opengfx+industries
13:44:54 <andythenorth> wow, industry sets we have :D
13:44:59 <andythenorth> canadian industries also :P
13:46:44 <andythenorth> “Haul Road” or “Heavy Haul Road”?
13:46:58 <andythenorth> the shorter one is used IRL, but longer more obvious to player?
13:50:10 <Wolf01> Remind me to spin off you grf :)
13:51:47 <andythenorth> ho NRT types show in main toolbar menu even if no vehicles :)
13:54:57 <Wolf01> I should fix that, report a bug XD
13:56:09 <andythenorth> if we tell players where the RATT build is, and where the bug tracker is
13:56:14 <andythenorth> we can avoid that work :P :)
13:57:08 * andythenorth thinks santa claus might bring a forum post
14:00:21 <Wolf01> I'm not sure about that
14:01:29 <Wolf01> I don't want suddenly people trying to make grfs with no specs and then blame us because something changed
14:03:11 <frosch123> yay, regression no longer crashes. but there is still a different result for some bridge construction
14:04:22 <Wolf01> frosch123, about the default tram, shouldn't we hardcode 2 different trams, one w/o catenary and one with?
14:05:17 <frosch123> same for road then?
14:05:28 <frosch123> ROAD ELRD TRAM ELTM
14:05:46 <Wolf01> I think not, we don't have ELRD currently
14:06:12 <frosch123> we also do not have TRAM then
14:06:31 <andythenorth> Wolf01: don’t tell them where the nml fork is :)
14:06:31 <Wolf01> But we have TRAM vehicles mixed with ELTM
14:06:54 <frosch123> default ottd has no trams at all :p
14:07:16 <frosch123> Wolf01: there is no way to fix existing grfs, so what do you try to achieve?
14:07:16 <andythenorth> if it’s TRAM and ELTM then ROAD and ELRD are entailed I think
14:07:17 <Wolf01> But we have existing grfs :P
14:07:36 <andythenorth> urgh, I changed ELTM to ELTR because I kept mistyping it
14:07:44 <andythenorth> ELTRM doesn’t compile :P
14:07:56 <Wolf01> Just I find ugly to have ELTM as default
14:08:21 <Wolf01> andythenorth, label is 32 bit, 8 bits per char.. 4?
14:10:02 <frosch123> one could also call it DFLT and ELEC
14:10:11 <frosch123> same labels for road and tram subtypes
14:11:37 <andythenorth> it’s just a reference eh :)
14:11:47 <andythenorth> whatever it is needs to be easy to type
14:11:54 * andythenorth wondered about CATT (catenary tram)
14:12:19 <frosch123> anyway, exisiting tram grfs should default to electrified tram track
14:12:35 <frosch123> people can always toggle the transparency setting if they hate catenary
14:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, electric tram should be just "TRAM"
14:13:44 <frosch123> what would non-electrified tram then be?
14:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, let me rephrase that... if ANYTHING should be "TRAM", then it should be electric tram
14:14:36 <__ln__> what about an electrified tram that doesn't have catenary?
14:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that would be WTRM (weird tram)
14:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i think there's a tram in belgium that only uses the two rails for power
14:16:28 <andythenorth> there’s one in Bordeaux that switches
14:16:34 <andythenorth> catenary / underground rail
14:16:43 <frosch123> btw. it is not required that all labels contain "RD" or "TM"
14:16:44 <Wolf01> I never paid attention, but in some cities we use that too
14:16:55 <frosch123> we already know that the labels refer to road or tram :)
14:17:29 <Wolf01> What about removing "EL*" totally and place catenary as infrastructure? (also on railroad)
14:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there were also some tests with induction, where you basically have the third rail underground
14:18:09 <Wolf01> Grfs might define if catenary can be built later, or not built at all, and what's the aspect
14:18:36 <frosch123> Wolf01: that fails just on the next door with 3rd rail and voltage levels and whatever stuff
14:18:43 <__ln__> the tram in Sevilla is battery-powered on a portion of its route
14:18:50 <frosch123> we already tried separate catenary, and it failed
14:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i fear that digs too dep into already existing infrastructure/UI
14:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but that doesn't need a new tracktype...
14:19:44 <frosch123> also it does not fix anything about the label problem
14:19:48 <andythenorth> that’s just ‘powered'
14:20:05 <Wolf01> I started roadtypes with that idea in mind, that was the "catenary flag" which got removed
14:20:27 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i guess not, but it needs a tram type which needs to have catenary on some parts of the route.
14:20:32 <frosch123> it merely adds another label for catenary type
14:20:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i think a flag falls short... you need new bits for catenary type and catenary trackbits
14:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: because people will want to differentiate 25kV AC, 15kV AC, 3kV DC, ...
14:21:59 <Wolf01> Yes, in my implementation the entire tile was powered regardless of bits (or better the same track bits)
14:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> (not that there are any 25kV trams)
14:23:44 <andythenorth> we just need two labels eh? :D
14:23:58 <andythenorth> steam trams look silly with catenary up
14:24:59 <lorran78> anyway thx for help i am happy because it works :p
14:24:59 <Wolf01> Also steam trains running on elrails
14:26:52 <andythenorth> frosch123: it’s light rail eh? Can I just use ‘RAIL’ and ‘ELRL’? :) :P
14:28:21 <Wolf01> At least until you start making road+rail grfs
14:28:34 <Wolf01> If that's will even be possible
14:28:40 <andythenorth> then that whole tedious bunfight about labels is mostly done already
14:28:49 <andythenorth> and nobody has to ‘quit the community’ over labels :P
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14:29:42 <frosch123> most labels abbreviate "RAIL" with "R", which also works for "ROAD" :)
14:30:11 <andythenorth> 'narrow gauge road’
14:30:32 <frosch123> not navigateable by articulated vehicles
14:31:33 <Wolf01> I'm still expecting canalroad/wetroad
14:32:29 <frosch123> canal is cominable with overhead-tram
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14:38:26 <andythenorth> so I should change RH to use RAIL and ELRL eh?
14:39:01 <frosch123> ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL ?
15:25:50 <Wolf01> I've been staring at VS for 1 hour...
15:26:24 <frosch123> maybe listen to AS for the next hour then
15:28:25 <Wolf01> Time to do somethinh, like fixing non-drive-through roadstops or disabling building menu if no vehicle has been found
15:28:44 <frosch123> pull before you do that
15:29:08 <frosch123> i think i did both :p
15:32:00 <Wolf01> Missing a diagdir somewhere
15:32:14 <frosch123> you need to check the command callback for that
15:32:29 <frosch123> it likely extracts the direction from p1 and p2, which got changed
15:35:50 <Wolf01> Let's try changing a random 6 to a 3
15:53:31 <andythenorth> how do I make some vehicles compatible to both ROAD and HAUL?
15:53:35 <Wolf01> Mmmh, why I can't merge from ratt? It says it's already up to date... how it can be?
15:53:41 <andythenorth> I have to define a third type, which provides the compatibility?
15:54:02 <Wolf01> Or define HAUL as compatible with road?
15:54:22 <frosch123> it depends whether all HAUL vehicles are compatible, or just one
15:54:27 <Wolf01> But you don't want milk delivery trucks to run on it
15:54:32 <andythenorth> HAUL vehicles are HAUL only
15:54:39 <andythenorth> ROAD vehicles are ROAD only
15:54:44 <andythenorth> but Supplies Trucks can go on both
15:55:26 <andythenorth> ok, and I don’t need to define that as an actual type?
15:55:34 <andythenorth> just put it in the relevant compatibility props?
15:55:50 <Wolf01> I'm still of the idea ROAD vehs are compatible with all types (mainly for compatibility), maybe not for wetroads
15:56:26 <andythenorth> no schoolbuses on my mining road :P
15:56:38 <andythenorth> maybe I miss something, dunno
15:56:51 <Wolf01> And if I want to build a school near the mine?
15:56:53 <frosch123> i am not entirely sure :)
15:58:30 <Wolf01> Also I want roads traversable only for certain vehicles, like only buses but no freight vehicles
15:59:02 <andythenorth> I never did understand railtypes compatibility :D
15:59:06 <Wolf01> So I'll shit them on all the cities to keep trucks outside
15:59:15 <andythenorth> oh like a city truck ban? o_O
15:59:29 * andythenorth considered something like that before
15:59:38 <andythenorth> I thought it might be too restrictive to be fun, but yeah
15:59:41 <andythenorth> no trucks in towns
15:59:45 <andythenorth> would be a thing
15:59:49 <Wolf01> I hate when 40+ trucks pile up behing a bus
16:00:07 <andythenorth> not sure how it would be done
16:00:21 <andythenorth> ideally, persuade towns to build a dedicated town roadtype :P
16:01:00 <Wolf01> Most of my towns don't even own their roads :P
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16:01:31 <frosch123> so that would enforce servicing shops and bank by helicopter?
16:02:31 <Wolf01> Maybe you can just leave *some* roads to be used
16:02:40 <Wolf01> But not every single road
16:03:45 <andythenorth> exception for town trucks
16:04:17 <andythenorth> mail, armoured, food, building materials, goods, beer
16:04:49 <Wolf01> Eh.. and if I make a goods truck with a 300t one?
16:07:10 <Wolf01> The problem might be when an industry near the town will be eaten as the town grows, but since it's you which make "no-truck" roads, it's your fault if you wall in the industry
16:08:32 <Wolf01> I would give a look on 4 lanes roads, sure it will break all the graphics and might need transition tiles for other roadtypes
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16:12:40 <Wolf01> Ok, synced the convert-road branch
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16:13:44 <andythenorth> compatibility breaks my brain
16:13:54 <andythenorth> I’m sure Eddi explained to me once that it isn’t possible
16:17:06 <Wolf01> Yes, I know -> TODO: check for roadtype compatibility
16:18:21 <andythenorth> I have NFI how to have a vehicle that can go on multiple labels
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16:18:33 <andythenorth> as vehicle compatibility is defined by the type, not by the vehicle
16:18:53 <andythenorth> so I have to define some ‘universal’ road or something
16:21:34 <Wolf01> frosch123, did you remove the "compatible_roadtypes" variable?
16:22:08 <Wolf01> I mean from RoadTypeInfo
16:23:07 <andythenorth> uses powered instead
16:23:26 <andythenorth> they’re synonymous for RVs as there are no unpowered wagons
16:24:24 <Wolf01> So I only check if the new roadtype will be powered?
16:25:01 <Wolf01> Unpow->pow yes; pow->pow yes; pow->unpow no
16:25:22 <Wolf01> Third-rail -> catenary?
16:35:24 <andythenorth> don’t understand :)
16:36:18 <andythenorth> the railtypes compatibility spec is…'interesting'
16:36:36 <andythenorth> it looks like something that was designed by very clever people
16:37:02 <andythenorth> I wish they were still around to explain it to us :)
16:38:22 <andythenorth> peter1139: how do railtypes work then? o_O
16:47:57 <frosch123> so, do we have a list of real use cases?
16:48:14 <frosch123> i only read about use-cases which have some corner case where it does not work :p
16:49:32 <peter1139> (so they do work, but only tron understands it)
16:50:00 <Wolf01> Let's hunt for tron :D
16:50:05 <andythenorth> frosch123: 1. roadtype specifying no other compatible types [works]
16:50:36 <andythenorth> 2. roadtype specifying some other compatible types [so RAIL trams work on ELRL, for example] [works]
16:51:35 <andythenorth> 3. vehicle that is mutually compatible between otherwise incompatible type [can’t see how to do that]
16:51:59 <peter1139> andythenorth, iirc the compatibility stuff works backward to how you'd expect
16:52:12 <peter1139> i certainly remember getting confused when dealing with it
16:52:30 <andythenorth> it’s built for rocket scientists
16:52:41 <andythenorth> the railtype specificies the behaviour of the vehicles
16:52:48 <andythenorth> which is super logical, but just not intuitive
16:53:34 <Wolf01> Btw... I'm now able to convert: 1. *->red; 2. [normal, yellow]->blue; 3. *->yellow... no [*]->normal
16:55:23 <Wolf01> I think some road was defined as electric even if it doesn't have the catenary
16:55:30 <Wolf01> Or I might have switched the checks
16:56:30 <andythenorth> I’m 99% certain that case 3 (vehicles compatible between 2 otherwise incompatible types) can’t be done
16:56:45 <andythenorth> I’m sure Eddi|zuHause explained that it’s why we can’t have mixed gauge trains
16:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> we can have mixed gauge trains if you define a mixed gauge railtype
16:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the railtype says which vehicles it's compatible with, not the vehicle says which railtypes it's compatible with
16:58:55 <Wolf01> Ok, switching the checks, *->road, [yellow, red]->blue, [blue, red]->yellow, yellow->red
16:59:36 <Wolf01> So it was better before
17:00:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:01:00 <andythenorth> so how would I define a vehicle compatible with HAUL and ROAD?
17:01:10 <andythenorth> when HAUL and ROAD are not compatible
17:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't. either you make HAUL compatible with ROAD (one way or the other) or you define a mixed type...
17:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> a vehicle only has exactly one roadtype. the roadtypes then discuss amongst themselves whether to allow that vehicle on them, based on that one type.
17:04:05 <andythenorth> ok so that is what it is
17:04:10 <andythenorth> I’ll stop trying to implement it
17:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what would occasionally be useful is that two articulated parts could have different POWERED type
17:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (not COMPATIBLE)
17:06:12 <Wolf01> At least if someone finds a way to make a trolleybus with a diesel engine too
17:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so you could make like electric/diesel hybrid vehicles, or something
17:06:22 <Wolf01> *articulated trolleybus
17:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> currently articulated parts must have the exact same type
17:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (or it's actually ignored, not sure)
17:16:20 <peter1139> iirc power is ignored for articulated parts
17:23:52 <andythenorth> it is for RVs definitely
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17:27:14 <andythenorth> so I need two kinds of supplies truck, and transfers
17:30:38 <frosch123> i think in your case i would use ROAD, OFFR, HAUL
17:31:00 <frosch123> ROAD is normal road, OFFR is trails, HAUL is specifically designed for heavy vehicles
17:31:32 <frosch123> OFFR vehicles can drive on all three
17:31:38 <frosch123> ROAD and HAUL vehicles can only drive on themself
17:31:53 <andythenorth> works, but puts a type in the build menu I don’t otherwise need or want :)
17:32:17 <andythenorth> I think the solution is to drop the idea of multi-compatible supplies trucks
17:32:19 <frosch123> i thought trails were the main usecase :p
17:32:45 <andythenorth> ‘now we have experience’ :P
17:32:59 <frosch123> anyway, i am not sure how the introduction works yet
17:33:21 <frosch123> can a rv be available without the tracktype being available yet?
17:34:17 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> works, but puts a type in the build menu I don’t otherwise need or want :) <- only if you define a roadtype grf, not with just vehicles... btw, if you load a vehicle grf with no specific roadtype defined, what could happen? Defaults to ROAD?
17:34:49 <andythenorth> defaults to ROAD
17:34:54 <andythenorth> that’s tested in Road Hog
17:35:46 <andythenorth> if I wanted an OFFR type, I’d have to define a buildable OFFR type, simply adding a label to table + vehicles doesn’t work
17:36:21 <andythenorth> powered (compatibility) list is for a different thing, so that’s no use
17:36:27 <andythenorth> and fallback is for a different thing also
17:36:54 <andythenorth> this use case is not essential, and I worry it’s a bit of a misleading rabbit hole :)
17:37:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: from docs I can’t understand which has priority, vehicle introduction or tracktype introduction
17:38:27 <frosch123> i would also have to read railtype docs :)
17:40:28 <andythenorth> burn it all with fire :)
17:42:49 <frosch123> anyway, you can now have separate (global) hotkeys for building tram
17:43:12 <andythenorth> that is more important than it might sound
17:43:40 * andythenorth needs some haul road sprites
17:43:53 <frosch123> isn't it just grey stone?
17:45:25 <andythenorth> American Roads dirt roads will do
17:45:44 <andythenorth> I think ‘not brown’ is probably better in a future version
17:46:07 <andythenorth> oh, they’re all integrated with the terrain :P
17:47:13 <Wolf01> Also pedestrian roads would be cool, they should disable any other feature than building road :P
17:48:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:49:01 <frosch123> Wolf01: you can do that with the oneway stuff
17:49:06 <frosch123> it also allows noway
17:54:31 <Wolf01> I'll do pedestrians as vehicles
17:54:54 <Wolf01> Which could use any other road and transport 1 goods
17:55:20 <Wolf01> Not 2 because the other hand is bus with the smartphone
17:56:20 <Wolf01> Pedestrian which can carry pax would be too weird :D
17:57:49 <andythenorth> so trams without catenary eh
17:58:01 <andythenorth> I will need some more sprites
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18:29:40 <andythenorth> do we need a disable_[types] list?
18:45:46 <andythenorth> updated, adds a second road type and some vehicles for it
18:45:55 <andythenorth> also corrected some strings, and changed some labels
18:58:00 <Wolf01> Btw, it's not clear you have to bridge/tunnel a ROAD to cross it with the HAUL one
18:58:35 <Wolf01> Building roadbits on ROAD when building HAUL should be forbidden
18:59:44 <andythenorth> do we need to do that in newgrf, or in ottd?
18:59:59 * andythenorth wonders how much more nml patching is left
19:00:10 <andythenorth> I haven’t tested the callbacks (haven’t even looked at them) :P
19:00:12 <frosch123> when adding roadbits with a different type, it needs to pick the more-compatible roadtype, or reject it completely
19:00:32 <frosch123> rail + elrail -> elrail, elrail + rail -> elrail, rail + mono -> reject
19:00:52 * andythenorth wonders if nml needs tests adding for these types
19:01:07 <frosch123> nml needs to learn some more roadtypeflags, otherwise it is done
19:01:38 <andythenorth> the railtype test (008) is pretty sparse eh?
19:01:38 <frosch123> the yellow/red stuff is already good
19:02:01 <andythenorth> once nml is done, we could merge the fork?
19:02:12 <andythenorth> currently I’ve broken the jenkins build of RH, as it needs forked nml
19:02:15 <frosch123> it needs some review
19:02:33 <frosch123> every now and then there is a mixup of basetype and subtype
19:02:50 <frosch123> many of the fixes are actually adding or removing "!"
19:03:48 <frosch123> also i am a fan of vcs history that tells you something more than trial and error :)
19:05:37 <andythenorth> wouldn’t we just bin the current commits, and make a new set of patches for nml?
19:07:59 <andythenorth> don’t _think_ that’s in the grf
19:08:19 <frosch123> you likely forgot to set a name
19:08:22 <frosch123> so it took the default
19:08:32 <andythenorth> I’ve only defined one roadtype
19:08:39 <andythenorth> the Heavy Haul Road
19:08:48 <andythenorth> and two tramtypes
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19:43:26 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
19:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27698 /trunk/src/lang (russian.txt spanish.txt) (2016-12-18 19:45:38 +0100 )
19:45:47 <DorpsGek> spanish: 3 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> russian: 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
19:55:08 <_dp_> hi! can a newgrf disable railtypes in other grf?
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20:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can only disable the other grf
20:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a total dick move, btw.
20:13:56 <_dp_> My only objective is to configure server the way I want it, so I have an easier way of disabling grfs
20:14:28 <Wolf01> Check if the other grf has parameters
20:15:01 <_dp_> It has one, but it's not the one I want :(
20:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> best way to configure server grfs is to upload a savegame which you set up and checked locally
20:16:32 <_dp_> then I won't be able to generate more games with same settings
20:16:42 <_dp_> besides I can't even do it locally
20:22:14 <Wolf01> I usually configure the server locally then upload the config, so I can generate new games
20:24:29 <_dp_> I have a nice web interface for configuring servers
20:24:49 <_dp_> Sadly it just seems impossible to do what I want in any way
20:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you can save the savegame's newgrf config as a preset, to use in other games
20:55:34 <_dp_> whatever, I know how to configure servers :p
20:56:02 <_dp_> I don't know how to disable railtypes :(
20:56:43 <_dp_> I can even disable engines, but it won't help here because nuts have universal engines
20:57:41 <Wolf01> Maybe if you just say what you want exactly someone could work it out...
20:58:21 <_dp_> exactly I want to disable normal rail types in nuts and leave only purr rails)
20:59:40 <_dp_> In general though I want to create some cool christmas setup and that was just one of ideas for it...
21:09:46 <V453000> disable railtypes, why?
21:12:25 <V453000> nuts will definitely get at least one more update eventually
21:12:31 <_dp_> most important one is that I don't undestand why are they even there)
21:12:36 <V453000> so if you give me reasons I might consider them
21:12:56 <_dp_> and they are cheaper so you have to use them for start and then go through all the hassle of replacing them
21:13:00 <V453000> well having an universal rail is generally useful
21:13:19 <V453000> having colours is just nice
21:13:20 <_dp_> also they use different background in my setup for some reason
21:13:28 <V453000> and can be interesting for specific setups
21:13:39 <V453000> different background?
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21:14:00 <_dp_> yeah, wait a sec I'll set it up on a server
21:17:37 * andythenorth wonders how FIRS works
21:19:44 <_dp_> V453000, check citymania test server
21:20:00 <_dp_> normal raitypes use default climate ground
21:20:18 <_dp_> while purr ones use grf background (that I want)
21:20:47 <V453000> sounds like non nuts issue but let's see
21:21:38 <_dp_> in fact I may even be able to fix it by changing some sprites
21:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i think your best approach here is to modify the grf to your needs, and then get permission to distribute it
21:52:13 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, mb... but I still hope there is smth better)
21:52:51 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:53:32 <_dp_> for now I'm stuck on installing nmlc though :(
21:55:15 <_dp_> best I got so far is that in installs fine and then can't find ply
21:55:24 <_dp_> which I think I have for all possible python versions
21:56:17 <andythenorth> got a virtualenv?
21:56:37 <_dp_> or mb not, I think I installed in with setup.py
21:56:56 <_dp_> pip failed on egg with some weird error
21:57:08 <andythenorth> frigging python packaging :)
21:57:20 <andythenorth> substitute [python] for any other popular language also
21:57:35 <_dp_> virtualenv didn't work either
21:57:53 <andythenorth> FWIW, I use a virtualenv (for isolation of the rest of my system from localised setuptools crap)
21:58:03 <andythenorth> and then I pip install ply for python 3.2
21:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't you use pillow nowadays?
21:58:24 <andythenorth> I am not going to remove it and test it though, as setuptools are flakey
21:58:27 <andythenorth> ply is the lexer
21:59:48 <_dp_> nvm, just installed it in virtualenv
22:00:16 *** mikegrb_ is now known as mikegrb
22:00:16 <_dp_> first time I tried have some files created under root so was getting permission errors
22:00:41 <andythenorth> I always use virtualenv, it just prevents installs for one project crapping all over another project
22:01:39 <_dp_> yeah, I'm usually using it too, just got confused when it suddenly required root permissions
22:01:42 <andythenorth> ach are dates a word or dword? :P
22:02:31 * andythenorth doing text stack stuff again
22:06:17 <lorran78> i wanted to know if industries can pop on a object item other than original item (transmiter and lighthouse)
22:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: surely the wiki knows that...
22:19:13 <peter1139> my multistop docks works
22:19:26 <peter1139> must be an edge-case issue which i don't remember
22:22:10 <andythenorth> you couldn’t figure out how/where to make ships wait?
22:22:36 <andythenorth> afaik, it was ‘mostly done’ but something boring needed doing
22:22:47 <andythenorth> and boring is boring
22:28:13 <__ln__> so... if one of the german states decided to declare independence, what would happen?
22:36:05 <peter1139> nah it had path finding issues
22:36:08 <peter1139> but i don't remember what
22:36:46 <peter1139> possibly something to do with the dock tile not actually be traversible
22:39:53 <andythenorth> multistop docks would be…better
22:40:01 <andythenorth> or at least different
22:40:12 <peter1139> they solve some issues
22:40:26 <peter1139> i wasn't intending on making ships solid at any point though
22:41:59 <andythenorth> pathfinding nightmare, they’d always be trying to avoid each other on :P
22:55:09 * Wolf01 hands andythenorth a cookie
22:55:42 <andythenorth> is a commit? o_O
22:55:57 <Wolf01> No, german cookies from lidl
22:58:32 <Wolf01> The vanilla ones are pure drugs, I ate 8 before punching myself and hide the packet
22:59:02 <__ln__> i don't recall such brand
22:59:22 <Wolf01> There's a pirate girl on the packet
23:00:01 <__ln__> gotta look next time i shop at lidl
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23:02:20 <__ln__> probably too tasty to import to finland
23:07:08 <Wolf01> They'll keep you at diet?
23:07:17 <_dp_> can I replace one base sprite with other base sprite in newgrf?)
23:07:31 <_dp_> like put snow instead of grass
23:08:04 <__ln__> can't even buy lipton ice tea or nestea pratically anywhere here :/
23:10:07 <Wolf01> I'll bring you some crates if I'll come here
23:10:10 <_dp_> V453000, yeah, but you're replacing them with custom ones
23:10:25 <__ln__> Wolf01: thanks in advance
23:10:38 <_dp_> V453000, and I don't want to make custom spritesheet, just use another sprite from the game
23:11:27 <V453000> not sure how would one go about that
23:11:41 <V453000> but why would you utterly break the rails to show as landscape_
23:14:08 <_dp_> break rails? dunno, for now I'm just trying to replace grass)
23:14:25 <_dp_> like toyland temperate replacement does, but it uses custom sprites
23:17:41 <_dp_> V453000, btw, about railtypes, can I override NUTS engines from other grf and replace allowed railtypes to disable them on normal rails?
23:20:27 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: maybe look at how alpinew.grf replaces the arctic grass with temperate grass?
23:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it may be more involved than you think to find all the instances, though...
23:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: and yes, you can change the properties of vehicles from other grfs, if you set the flag that your grf is an addon to that other grf
23:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> note that you can't override callbacks and stuff, you'd need to reimplement the whole graphics block
23:23:24 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, looks like alpinew does the same thing, at least it contains a huge spritesheet
23:23:53 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, cool, I'll try replacing them, ty
23:24:33 <V453000> I think all of nuts trains are defining important things by callbacks
23:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: the sprites are mostly snowy roofs and stuff
23:25:04 <V453000> I dont understand your problem _dp_ to be honest
23:25:26 <V453000> you have broken terrain/rails and instead of overriding the rails with railtypes, you are trying to fuck up the rest
23:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. i suppose it actually does copy the original sprites
23:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and not reuse the base sprites
23:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there might actually be a way, but probably it'd need to be a bit more hacky
23:27:11 <Lejving> V453000, I can't msg you
23:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: well, i guess at this point you might just need to make it properly, making a railtype and using the underlay
23:27:33 <V453000> how do I do -g then "D
23:27:48 <V453000> or join channel #V453000
23:28:17 <_dp_> V453000, I'm just trying various ideas, not specifically solving that bg problem
23:29:22 <_dp_> V453000, for example, I like some ideas in NUTS and graphics, but there is too much redundant stuff imo, would be nice to simplify it
23:30:32 <V453000> I agree, I plan another train set
23:30:42 <V453000> if you make a fork, I won't hate it probably :)
23:33:12 <_dp_> I'd like to find some better ways of customizing grf than just forking them left and right)
23:34:30 <_dp_> besides, I can't even clone nuts repo, is it ridiculously large?
23:39:04 <_dp_> rofl, run out of disk space cloning it
23:40:53 <Wolf01> "And just to be sure he can be the only one to edit it, he set up a raid 5 with 4TB hard disks"
continue to next day ⏵
