IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-17
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10:37:41 <peter1139> that thing then a nuget package targets .net 4.5.2 and you're using .net 4.5
10:37:47 <peter1139> latest and greatest idiots :S
10:42:07 <peter1139> that thing when you look at the source and it is because they are doing $"{nameof(bytes)}"
10:42:25 <peter1139> which effectively results in the same thing as "bytes"
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11:28:16 <peter1139> also turns out they're using classes not in my version of mono, so after fixing that shit it didn't work anyway :p
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12:13:50 <andythenorth> Wolf01: one for ‘where is cat'
12:16:46 <Wolf01> So far I believe that we did not find a simple, fun and fair solution. Ideas include: large power-up times(annoying and also weakens base defense); simply not allowing turrets to be build near biter bases (makes the player feel cheated); underground anti-turret worms (sugar-coated version of the previous idea). <- V453000, just introduce Dune's worms... so you'll even need to pavement your
12:16:46 <Wolf01> whole base to stay safe XD
12:18:43 <Wolf01> "I believe there is almost always an option to destroy bases without being forced to use turret-creep", yes, there is one very reliable, the ion cannon mod
12:28:38 <Alberth> allow tunneling, with plating to prevent that from being useful :)
12:29:26 <Wolf01> Remembers me about Brotherhood of Nod engineers attack
12:30:15 <Wolf01> Fill up 3-4 underground apcs with engineers and send them in the middle of the enemy base
12:31:02 <Wolf01> That's why I always pavemented my base and make walled traps in the middle of the base for those fuckers :P
12:34:07 <Alberth> para=trooping from the air could work too, hard to defend against
12:35:09 <Wolf01> You don't para-troop engineers usually, also there are SAM sites or AA guns, underground enemies can't be targeted instead
12:35:29 <Alberth> 1st WW trench warfare in France involved lots of explosives :p
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14:55:23 <JohnnyWing> Hello. So I'm a longtime player that's just been looking into contributing dev work...Am I right that there's no automated testing (unit tests) setup for the source?
14:56:00 <JohnnyWing> OK. I come from a java background, the C's easy enough to pick up. What should I be looking at to see this?
14:56:04 <frosch123> you can run "make regression" and it will start ottd, and run same game and ai scripts, which run stuff, and it compares the output
14:56:40 <Wolf01> Which is functional testing and not unit testing
14:56:43 <JohnnyWing> OK. anything that runs at buildtime?
14:56:51 <Wolf01> I tried with unit tests but headers are a total mess
14:57:10 <JohnnyWing> too much of a mess to mess with, or just a lot of work?
14:57:26 <JohnnyWing> I ask because im a Testing SME with whatI do, and I'm interested in a challenge
14:57:57 <Wolf01> If you want to give it a look, I preferred to avoid it
14:58:21 <JohnnyWing> OK awesome. I'll look into the regression and go from there
14:59:15 <peter1139> yeah it's not very... unitized
15:00:46 <JohnnyWing> If....big if....If someone wanted to make the effort, it sounds like there would likely be refactoring to make it work. Maybe quite a bit from the sounds of it. Is such an effort something that the core team would be interested in having done and supporting?
15:01:33 <JohnnyWing> I know that some projects dont care much about testing... and my goal would be to implement easy testing to enable changes to be made with confidence that they wont break the build
15:01:44 <JohnnyWing> or would that just be too much?
15:01:53 <Alberth> you know the source is > 300K lines?
15:02:16 <Alberth> unit tests are likely to be bigger, I think?
15:02:23 <JohnnyWing> Not much of a concern? Start small? again - would need analysis, unless it's already done
15:02:47 <JohnnyWing> no no, unit breaks them into units, testing the smallest set of logic possible, in isolation from other things
15:03:01 <Alberth> core is very much optimized, not very unit-testable, I think
15:03:29 <JohnnyWing> optimized for... performance, you mean, right?
15:03:52 <peter1139> performance and memory use
15:04:19 <peter1139> it's c++ written by c coders
15:05:00 <Wolf01> In my case it's C++ written by VB/C# coder :P
15:05:16 <JohnnyWing> Lol, I'm sure it's interesting then
15:06:30 <JohnnyWing> OK. I'm still curious to learn more so I'll do some looking around and see if there's any opportunities that make sense
15:06:33 <peter1139> biggest issue is lots of stuff is intertwined and interdependent
15:06:50 <Alberth> muchos global variables :)
15:06:59 <JohnnyWing> right and that's what I figured and where the refactoring that I mentioned was targeted at.
15:07:38 <JohnnyWing> So, in a nutshell, I take existing legacy enterprise applications that are rather large and refactor them to enable automated testing and CI integration, so that enterprises dont have to be scared to change that legacy code any more.
15:08:00 <JohnnyWing> This sounds like a very similar situation, hence the interest
15:08:13 <JohnnyWing> and I've been playing ttd for 20 yrs, so it just seemed like a good match atm
15:08:51 <Alberth> refactor would be nice, if possible with a new feature :)
15:09:25 <Alberth> as refactor for refactor sake doesn't do much, and takes a lot of time, imho
15:10:05 <JohnnyWing> right...and that's kinda my root question:
15:10:37 <JohnnyWing> is a refactor to enable testing, by (this guy), one of those things that the team thinks is worth it? (again, if this guy does most/all the work)
15:11:11 <Alberth> I don't see the value of unit testing tbh, but that's just me
15:11:21 <Alberth> I do not speak for "the team"
15:11:31 <Alberth> in fact, "the team" doesn't exist
15:12:08 <Alberth> but have a look first
15:14:24 <Alberth> it's fine if you do something else than regular work :)
15:14:46 <JohnnyWing> OK. and that's completely valid opinion. Most of my efforts are spent doing the work so I can show devs the value it provides. That's the fun part.
15:15:42 <Wolf01> You could do some refactoring to better place some functions which are now spread over multiple files or in wrong places, I would start with that
15:15:55 <JohnnyWing> when you say the team doesn't exist....that makes me want to ask for a synopsis of the project? It sounds not very active?
15:16:20 <JohnnyWing> I looked at the roadmap and flyspray and found nothing. No roadmap, very informal, user contribution-based, likely?
15:17:23 <JohnnyWing> @Wolf I'll look in that direction
15:18:01 <peter1139> hmm, did we ever get multistop for docks?
15:18:37 <Wolf01> The cat guy asked me to get into docks after nrt
15:18:51 <peter1139> well i have a partial patch for it already
15:19:49 <Wolf01> Missing the movement part?
15:20:17 <peter1139> iirc it was mostly working
15:20:35 <peter1139> hmm, resizing the ottd window is buggy
15:20:49 <Wolf01> I would like to get into the vehicle movement code to provide some more features in that branch
15:21:18 <peter1139> how can window resize be buggy? :S
15:21:19 <Wolf01> Roundabouts and ramps for roads, realistic locks, real grf airports
15:22:26 <frosch123> JohnnyWing: development is mostly stalled. main issue seems to be that there are many kind of conflicting features in existence, and every new feature has to account for serval corner cases. but since noone uses all of the conflicting features, noone is interested in caring for the corner cases
15:23:18 <JohnnyWing> ouch. So...scope creep finally took over and is winning...damn
15:23:53 <JohnnyWing> Has there been any efforts to develop a plan to overcome it and make decisions on those things needed to get out of this situation?
15:24:17 <JohnnyWing> sounds like no, its just kinda stopped.
15:24:19 <frosch123> the main effort is to fork and make those features work which you use :)
15:24:55 <JohnnyWing> that kinda makes me sad for the game tho :/
15:25:04 <JohnnyWing> but I get it, dont get me wrong
15:25:05 <frosch123> the main branch is now mostly about extending the add-on format
15:26:24 <JohnnyWing> OK. so really then, theres the engine, then a bunch of mods that plugin to it. Core dev ensures that the mod system works and nothing else break?
15:26:54 <JohnnyWing> but it sounds like the module that should be like the core logic and such (or default logic), is kinda embedded withint he engine and not yet extracted to a mod style component?
15:28:10 <peter1139> everything is core logic
15:28:32 <SpComb> just forget about OpenTTD and re-implement all of the game logic as a Cities: Skylines mod
15:29:02 <frosch123> SpComb: you mean as a factorio mod
15:29:12 <JohnnyWing> would be cool to see both
15:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> just make a factorio mod that runs cities skylines (or vice versa)
15:30:21 <peter1139> to allow multiple docks per station, i need to touch pathfinding, station and ship handling code.
15:30:26 <JohnnyWing> what do you mean that everything is core logic? There should be engine code and business logic separated. They're currently intertwined, yes? Is that what you're saying?
15:31:48 <JohnnyWing> Also, I'm not sure that I saw anything to the effect, but methinks that some post on/near the front page of the dev wiki regarding the current state of developement and the project would be super helpful. A lot of what I'm hearing now conflicts with the impression I got from the wiki
15:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> separating them only makes sense if they're also developed separately
15:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you're just adding development overhead for no benefit
15:34:04 <peter1139> cool 2 year old patch applies with minimal fixing
15:34:19 <JohnnyWing> separation of concerns and such?
15:34:29 <Wolf01> The problem is that noone knows the entire thing to be the "right one" to write such article, a group of people can do it, but those should be the "core" devs, and I think they don't have enough time or will to do even that work
15:34:52 <JohnnyWing> Wolf - helpful. thanks
15:35:11 <JohnnyWing> but makes me a little more sad
15:35:20 <JohnnyWing> However, I thank all you guys for the work thus far.
15:35:42 <peter1139> but i don't know where you'd start, what you'd do, what you'd achieve
15:36:08 <Wolf01> As you notice, we aren't so organized, and the project has blown up in these years so it's really big to be handled right now, we do what we can
15:36:09 <JohnnyWing> I played back when it had just started....i've taken 2-5 years off several times but always come back to it. It's amazing to see those years' features come in big chunks like that :)
15:36:34 <peter1139> and it is a game. within the core logic there is less of a concept of "this should do exactly this"
15:36:37 <Wolf01> I'd support it too, because refactoring for unit test would mean also more readable code
15:37:02 <Wolf01> *readable = understandable
15:37:29 <JohnnyWing> aye, readable/understandable/maintanable/testable/scalable/etc.
15:37:49 <JohnnyWing> Sounds like the "architect" role has been missing for a while and now it's just big and....big.
15:38:12 <Wolf01> Read it as "crooked house"
15:39:37 <SpComb> JohnnyWing: you also have to know that the source code was originally reverse-engineered from a 1990s game engine written by a single guy in assembler
15:39:46 <Wolf01> For example frosch123 has shown me some things, like we have a function which asserts when there are certain conditions and the same function which shouldn't assert on the same contitions but return false/invalid, as asserts are our current way to intercept weirdness whyle using a functionality
15:39:59 <SpComb> well, I haven't looked at the code for ages, but I would guess that you still see a lot of that in there :)
15:40:40 <Wolf01> One example is "GetRoadBits" which asserts if there is no road, "GetAnyRoadBits" instead returns ROADBITS_NONE
15:40:57 <JohnnyWing> Sp - yea...I remember that. I always wanted to get involved, but never was smart enough yet.
15:41:11 <JohnnyWing> Gotcha. tons of technical debt & inconsistencies
15:41:17 <Wolf01> I find that really confusing :P
15:41:39 <JohnnyWing> my problem is that when I run into inconsistencies like that, I've got to fix them.
15:41:48 <JohnnyWing> It tends to make my projects pretty big efforts :/
15:41:58 <Wolf01> You should fix them later
15:42:04 <JohnnyWing> but im OCD like that...therefore I'm a code quality guy
15:43:15 <Wolf01> I'm the same type too, I start from changing a light bulb and find myself repairing the car's engine
15:43:35 <JohnnyWing> damn that suspect looking wire...
15:45:10 <JohnnyWing> anyways. Does anyone know of a wiki page or category within flyspray or (whatever I need to know) that is a log of things like this technical debt that needs cleaned up? I'd much rather focus on that, even if it's futile, than feature dev/bug fixes.
15:45:24 <JohnnyWing> If there's nothing, I can whip something up and go from there
15:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> a code quality guy has probably been missing here for a while (*cough*tron*cough*) but at the end, someone has to actually do the work of restructuring the code
15:46:54 <frosch123> JohnnyWing: it's mostly about removing global variables
15:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a comprehensive list of technical debt, but you probably quickly find some if you prod the right people or read the right forum threads
15:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but you'll quickly need to narrow down what area you want to touch
15:47:45 <JohnnyWing> Alrighty. Good info to work from.
15:47:57 <frosch123> JohnnyWing: last week we encountered a bug, where function parameters are passed via global variables, and are then messed up when the function recurses
15:48:07 <JohnnyWing> I'll be around. I'd rather not go off and work in a silo.
15:49:18 <JohnnyWing> awesome. Is there an issue logged for it?
15:49:31 <frosch123> and to pass it directly to FormatString are calling functions
15:49:39 <JohnnyWing> which leads me to another question, Who's the webmaster(s)?
15:51:19 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I think that transport fever has some incompatibility with whatsapp web
15:51:42 <Wolf01> It starts to drop the framerate only when I open the whatsapp web page
15:51:58 <Wolf01> I could do anything else and works like a charm
15:56:56 <JohnnyWing> @frosch Fantastic. ty
15:58:25 <frosch123> JohnnyWing: just in case, there are hg and git repositories for ottd, which you can clone
15:58:39 <frosch123> "svn" is not used for branch development
15:59:23 <JohnnyWing> Yea....I work in git....the svn thing is new to me (tho I know it's old). I came away from the wiki guides without a clear understanding of what source I should be using for what.
15:59:45 <JohnnyWing> so I pulled svn, but I'll go back to the others
16:01:57 <JohnnyWing> is there a documented branching strategy?
16:02:33 <frosch123> no, in the end everything is put into svn, at which point the branch information is lost
16:02:42 <JohnnyWing> Sorry...i know I'm asking for a lot....but just want to get a clear picture
16:05:42 * peter1139 ponders dabbling with stupid size RSA keys
16:06:13 <Alberth> sounds like a good cargo to transport :)
16:06:43 <JohnnyWing> I see a stat on the wiki.... does anyone know when this happened? "Note: About 975 commits were lost when the old svn system crashed and was lost."
16:07:49 <Alberth> ie rev1 is what was salvaged :)
16:08:22 <frosch123> JohnnyWing: 2004/2005
16:08:32 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by truelight :: r1 / (202 files in 13 dirs) (2004-08-09 19:04:08 +0200 )
16:08:33 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
16:09:07 <frosch123> it started in march iirc, so about 5 months were lost
16:09:28 <frosch123> well, not the work, but the history :)
16:11:49 <peter1139> if only we had git back then
16:18:54 <peter1139> takes a while to generate 8192 bit keys
16:19:35 <peter1139> starts getting slow to decrypt too
16:27:11 <Wolf01> JohnnyWing, too many objectives? :P
16:27:48 <JohnnyWing> Aye. Hard to focus when you don't know what you're shooting for :)
16:28:02 <JohnnyWing> and that's a very very broad scope listed there right now haha
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16:29:04 <peter1139> one persons stagnant and dead is another persons complete
16:35:39 <frosch123> JohnnyWing: there are at least three groups of interest wrt. game features: 1. micromanagement like conditonal orders, refitting and loading. 2. automated economy like cargodist. 3. model railway sandbox
16:35:59 <Wolf01> I'm for the last one :P
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16:37:50 <JohnnyWing> so 3 game modes. Check
16:38:15 <frosch123> maybe competitive is a 4th, but i don't get those people
16:38:53 <JohnnyWing> to each their own, eh?
16:39:22 <JohnnyWing> Does competitive, though, violate on of the 3 objectives?
16:39:23 <JohnnyWing> Provide a game that is free from war themes and conflict; hence suitable for all age groups
16:39:31 <JohnnyWing> conflict is arguable :)
16:39:46 <frosch123> 1. and 2. result in a lot of conflicting features
16:42:19 <frosch123> 3 and 4 add insane requests for very complicated stuff, which for me always sounds like "how stuff is supposed to be" instead of "fun"
16:42:50 <frosch123> i.e. 3. and 4. are socially complicated, and 1. and 2 are technically complicated :p
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16:51:04 <JohnnyWing> haha all of that makes sense.
16:51:31 <JohnnyWing> They really do sound like different game modes or different games entirely, where the features can be isolated from the others
17:01:43 <frosch123> except that different game modes or games would not offer the greyscale inbetween :)
17:02:26 <peter1139> you could have options for everything
17:02:39 <peter1139> and then offer another advanced settings window for all the options
17:03:01 <peter1139> and another option to hide certain options which are deemed more advanced
17:04:14 <frosch123> we have hidden options to show other hidden options
17:07:12 <JohnnyWing> Yea. I could see it working out, but it'd have to be intentionally designed for such a scheme
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17:31:39 <lorran78> i am still searching for help to make new grf (actually i always make same grf with different pnml :/
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18:27:40 <slaca> hi guys, I just realised on bundles.openttdcoop.org, that i have not the latest opengfx, i have 0.5.2. but i see there is 0.5.4. Why is that can't be seen in the content dowload?
18:30:51 <frosch123> likely because someone was busy and then forgot to publish it
18:32:17 <slaca> ok, so it should work with 1.6.1 openttd?
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19:18:39 <Wolf01> andythenorth, bad news for lego, they will raise prices in UK from january :(
19:19:33 <andythenorth> brexit means brexit eh
19:19:38 <andythenorth> at least I got my country back
19:20:05 <frosch123> roadtype compatibility works now btw.
19:20:18 <frosch123> i've also added npf and yapf
19:45:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27697 /trunk/src/lang (spanish.txt unfinished/urdu.txt) (2016-12-17 19:45:36 +0100 )
19:45:44 <DorpsGek> urdu: 9 changes by siphr
19:45:45 <DorpsGek> spanish: 3 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
19:49:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: compatibilit works :D
19:50:02 <andythenorth> tried making some invalid orders and such
19:51:08 <frosch123> it's all a bit crashy
19:51:32 <frosch123> when we fix the regression and the tram dropdown, we should make a test game or so
19:51:49 <frosch123> earlier a random starting ai showed me that you could no longer build rail bridges :p
19:53:11 <andythenorth> I should patch Road Hog and let players loose on it
19:53:19 <andythenorth> can’t today, child #2 birthday
19:53:28 <andythenorth> much parenting to do
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19:58:36 <JohnnyWing> I'm looking at gfx.cpp. The DrawString method and many others have comments stating to see "DoDrawString() for details". Does anyone know if this method still exists and where? I can't seem to find it.
20:00:11 <frosch123> i guess DrawLayoutLine is its predecessor
20:01:12 <frosch123> no idea why that function should tell anything about colours though
20:02:27 <frosch123> anyway, DoDrawStrings was once in gfx.cpp
20:04:02 <frosch123> in r15000 DoDrawString refers to the comment which is now at the TextColour enum
20:04:40 <frosch123> so, i guess that DoDrawString reference can just be dropped :)
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20:27:17 <andythenorth> eh so what road types shall I add?
20:27:26 <andythenorth> tram, electrified tram
20:51:42 <andythenorth> no trolleybus in this roster, but maybe in another
20:51:45 <andythenorth> also trolley trucks
21:00:16 <V453000> because it's small? :D
21:02:29 <andythenorth> I want to call it something like ‘heavy haul road’
21:05:47 <Wolf01> But you can also run normal rvs on them, just make it with a low speed limit, 20kmh should be enough
21:06:21 <andythenorth> nah I’m making them exclusive :)
21:06:27 <andythenorth> the speed limit thing is weird
21:44:45 <andythenorth> what’s the deal with compatibility between tram and road?
21:44:52 <andythenorth> any tram can be built over any road?
21:57:41 <lorran78> someone can tell me how to use make program?
22:00:31 <andythenorth> what’s your starting point? (which OS, and do you have gcc?)
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22:19:12 <lorran78> i change pnml file to add introduction_date for all trains
22:20:19 <lorran78> i dl nml program and used it using "nml opengfx+trains.nml" but i always compile the same grf without changes...
22:20:31 <andythenorth> so you have a shell?
22:20:43 * andythenorth assumes that because you can use nml
22:20:57 <lorran78> yes i have dos window :p
22:21:52 <andythenorth> do you have gcc?
22:22:44 <lorran78> yes i dl something like that wait a sec
22:23:11 <lorran78> someone advise me this prog
22:23:23 <lorran78> but i don't know how to use it
22:23:26 <andythenorth> ok :D I have no idea what’s next with mingw
22:23:35 <andythenorth> what happens if you type ‘make’ in the dos prompt?
22:24:20 <lorran78> i can use gcc tell me where to find it
22:25:07 * andythenorth looking if someone documented this for newgrf
22:25:24 <lorran78> i want to play but i can't :((
22:26:42 <andythenorth> you pretty much need all of that, on windows, as far as I understand it
22:28:15 <lorran78> okay i am reading :p
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22:40:49 <andythenorth> lorran78: those instructions might be outdated about python2.7
22:41:26 <andythenorth> I use python 3 for my newgrf stuff, nml was ported to python 3 some time ago
22:41:53 <andythenorth> not sure how it works for the windows nml though
22:51:39 <andythenorth> hmm maybe it’s just a specific script that uses it, nothing to do with nml perhaps
22:52:53 <andythenorth> I broke my road-hog repo
22:53:11 <andythenorth> I need to stop using hg, I’m incompetent
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