IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-12-14
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00:10:17 <FLHerne> lorran78: Just run `make` in the project directory
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03:17:41 <Wolf01> Ok, made the convert road tool, I think it could be enough for this night
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12:09:41 <crem> What is wierd is that 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + ... = -1/12
12:10:49 <__ln__> It most certainly doesn't equal that.
12:13:16 <Wolf01> If you do it by hand no, but with the theorem yes, too bad it involves complex numbers so it's pure fantasyt
12:13:49 <crem> I does not need complex numbers.
12:14:30 <crem> And people say it's used a lot in quantum physics, where it "agrees with experiments", whatever it means.
12:16:27 <Wolf01> It's because it's a concept and not a real thing, like if you turn on and of a light for a x number of times, if you sum the states you will get that the light was half turned on and half turned off
12:19:04 <crem> Yes, that depends on rules of summation. Classical is a limit of partial sums, which doesn't exist in this case. But if you change definition to limit of averages of partial sums produced so far, then it's clearly equal to 0.5. (and when "classical" sum exists, it will always be equal to "new" sum, so it's extention of the definition).
12:19:10 <Wolf01> It's like defining that 0+0+0+... = 0 and 1+1+1+1+... = 1 and 1+0+1+0+1+.. = 0.5
12:20:16 <crem> 1+1+1+1 = -1/2 actually :)
12:20:44 <Wolf01> 1+1+1+ are states not numbers
12:21:10 <Wolf01> Sorry if I used numbers for practicity
12:21:41 <Wolf01> Poor perfornance warning converting int to boolean
12:21:44 <crem> 1-1+1-1+.. = 0.5. <= that's on off on off. And 1+0+0+0+0+0=1 is "on, then keep on, then keep on"
12:21:55 <crem> That's visual studio's thing.
12:22:15 <crem> Visual studio's warnings are often silly.
12:22:21 <Wolf01> 1+1+1+1+ means on and keep on, not changing state
12:22:32 <Wolf01> 1+0+1+0 means changing state
12:22:48 <Wolf01> 1+0+0+0 mean turn on then off and keep off
12:24:12 <crem> No, you mean sequence (of partial sums), for example 1,0,1,0,1 <= that's on-off. And that sequence of partial sums is produced of 1-1+1-1+1..
12:24:56 <crem> I just shared a weird thing, not that I wanted to discuss it much. :)
12:29:42 <Wolf01> I still can't get how turning on a light could be summed, you couldn't have 2x light by turning it on twice and you can't have 10x light by keeping it on for 10 seconds, but you can approximate it to be on and off for half of the time (which is where you had 5 seconds light, but no 0.5 light and neither 5x light)
12:30:38 <Wolf01> -1/12, 0.5 light etc are valid only in a specific context
12:30:51 <Wolf01> Which isn't the reality
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18:47:30 <Wolf01> Totally a cat, I didn't even notice it :P
18:48:21 <Wolf01> But my list have a working patch
18:48:49 <frosch123> oh, i thought it was only a list of things to do :o
18:52:47 <frosch123> there are some occurences of "rail" in the comments, which should be "road"
18:53:20 <Wolf01> It has been hard to understand what the rail convert command did.. at 2am :P
18:54:27 <Wolf01> But I took it piece by piece and tried to learn what they did, then I rewritten most of it
18:54:46 <Wolf01> I copied the comments for reference
18:55:19 <frosch123> the levelcrossing check should be after the "HasType", so it does not error on tram-levelcrossing when converting road
18:56:00 <frosch123> if (!rtids.HasType(to_type.basetype)) return error; <- that should be a "continue", noe "return"
18:56:51 <Wolf01> Right, it's inside a loop
18:57:16 <frosch123> it leaks the iterator, but the function sshould also just ignore those tiles
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18:58:24 <frosch123> it also needs to check for present roadvehicles
18:58:34 <frosch123> and not convert to types where they are stuck on
18:58:37 <Wolf01> Yes, I left that part out
18:59:37 <Wolf01> I'm thinking to publish the local branch, it's a big patch
19:01:59 <frosch123> there are no yapf caches for road btw
19:04:11 <frosch123> i wonder whether rail conversion even works correctly :p
19:04:22 <frosch123> i think there are various cases where you can depower vehicles
19:06:44 <Wolf01> Ok, now I understand why I put that check after (the hastype), because it asserts when is not road and the switch on tile type intercepts that
19:07:04 <frosch123> yes, we have that issue in multiple places
19:07:51 <frosch123> we need a version of HasTileRoadType that does not assert, but return false
19:07:58 <frosch123> like GetAnyRoadBits
19:08:24 <frosch123> we do not want that in all cases, since the assert is useful sometimes, but in many cases it is also the good behaviour
19:08:41 <Wolf01> Just check for tiletype and return false if !assert content
19:09:03 <frosch123> usuually we have different functions
19:09:10 <frosch123> like IsRoadStop and IsRoadStopTile
19:09:21 <frosch123> the function without "Tile" asserts
19:09:26 <frosch123> we have those in many places
19:11:53 <Wolf01> But function names are starting to be weird... HasTileRoadTypeTile and even HasTileRoadTypeRoadTile
19:17:31 <Wolf01> Only because TiletileileTileTile doesn't have a meaning
19:19:38 <frosch123> Wolf01: GetAnyRoadTypes
19:20:00 <frosch123> consistent to GetAnyRoadBits
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19:22:07 <frosch123> possibly also RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTileIfValid
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19:31:03 <Wolf01> <frosch123> possibly also RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTileIfValid <- isn't it a nonsense?
19:31:55 <Wolf01> If not valid return invalid :P
19:36:28 <Wolf01> Btw, if valid is the one with the assert or is the other one?
19:43:39 <frosch123> IFValid has no assert
19:43:46 <frosch123> that's the same as for the pool functions
19:43:58 <frosch123> and for UnpackIfValid
19:44:56 <frosch123> consistent naming :)
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27695 /trunk/src/lang (french.txt spanish.txt) (2016-12-14 19:45:37 +0100 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> spanish: 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
19:45:49 <DorpsGek> french: 26 changes by glx
19:46:28 <Wolf01> It's not the name which bothers me, it's the meaning, because that "valid" suggests me about a valid RoadTypeIdentifier, but in this case it's the right TileType
19:47:18 <frosch123> all IfValid functions return some "invalid" value if the parameter is invalid. all non-IfValid functions assert
19:48:41 <frosch123> i would make it a member, but yes
19:49:17 <frosch123> possibly the if part could also be some "MayTileTypeHaveRoad"
19:49:50 <frosch123> something like "MayHaveBridgeAbove"
19:50:09 <frosch123> then all the other functions can use that function to either assert, or return invalid
19:50:38 <frosch123> possibly "MayHaveRoad" is more consistent to "MayHaveBridgeAbove"
19:53:08 <Wolf01> Shouldn't we put these functions in some other header, like tile_map?
19:53:18 <Wolf01> The MayHaveBridgeAbove is in afterload
19:53:45 <frosch123> yeah, it was more prominent in the past
19:53:53 <frosch123> i think it got refactored away at some point
19:54:00 <frosch123> when all tiles got those bits
19:54:06 <Wolf01> It's still used only there, but I think it could be used for houses too
19:54:41 <Wolf01> I found a similar check when building houses on my other patch
19:54:42 <frosch123> if you check ottd 1.1. source or seomthing, then MayHaveBridgeAbove was in bridge_map.hpp
19:55:25 <frosch123> MayHaveBridgeAbove is a compatibility function from the past, it was hidden in afterload, so it is not used anymore :)
19:55:47 <frosch123> about the road stuff: for me it all belongs to GetAnyRoadBits
20:06:43 <andythenorth> blocker to making a newgrf: need a name
20:06:55 <andythenorth> I suppose adding roadtypes to Termite is bad?
20:07:08 <andythenorth> I have so many fricking grfs to remember to add to my games :)
20:07:14 <andythenorth> I should just combine them :P
20:07:44 <andythenorth> nml compiles per grf, then decompile with grfcodec, merge, recompile
20:07:47 <andythenorth> ‘might have string issues'
20:17:55 <frosch123> what roadtypes do you want to add?
20:18:26 <frosch123> maybe that gives a more descriptive name :)
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20:18:27 <andythenorth> initially tram with and without catenary
20:18:28 <Rubidium> frosch123: airroad, waterroad and railroad?
20:19:19 <frosch123> sounds like you want something like "chips"
20:19:59 <frosch123> how about just "sauce"? :p
20:20:22 <frosch123> roadvehicles can then be on the sauce
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20:20:32 <Rubidium> chips (en_GB) or chips (en_US)?
20:20:47 <frosch123> chips the station set
20:21:10 <Rubidium> oh, even more meanings for the word... lovely
20:21:28 <frosch123> maybe andy just wants vinegar
20:24:03 <andythenorth> Rubidium: rocky road is not bad
20:24:14 <andythenorth> but probably players will report that it’s not rocky
20:25:34 <supermop> hmm name it "this road destroys all original trains"
20:25:51 <supermop> orr "this road turns off inflation"
20:26:02 * andythenorth should probably just call it “Trams_with_catenary+trams_without_catenary+normal_road_+private_industrial_road.grf
20:26:38 <andythenorth> anything other than 100% literal is very dangerous when dealing with people
20:27:20 <andythenorth> I should rename Iron Horse to “12 steam trains 12 diesel trains 8 electric trains 4 carriages 32 wagons”
20:27:34 <andythenorth> but they’d need the intro dates and the stats and stuff too
20:28:32 <supermop> "Andy Presents: Some trains for your consideration"
20:28:47 <andythenorth> actually I’m probably being mean about people who are genuinely on the spectrum, which is not fair or good
20:28:57 <supermop> "Andy Presents: some types of roads
20:29:17 <supermop> minimalist / functionalist branding is all well and good
20:29:40 <andythenorth> “2x4 finished pine”
20:31:16 <andythenorth> “3 paintbrushes"
20:32:38 <andythenorth> “Eating your termite since 2016"
20:33:56 <andythenorth> supermop: can you make this grf? o_O
20:34:07 <andythenorth> I have enough grfs :P
20:34:40 <supermop> repackage as private label and release it myself?
20:34:59 <supermop> hmm last minute flight to memphis costs more than a computer
20:35:25 <supermop> do you have to go to the airport to buy bereavement fares?
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20:36:44 <supermop> supermop presents: Andy's GRF
20:38:15 <Wolf01> Got to go, more far away :P
20:48:20 <andythenorth> ach it’s just a name
20:48:36 <andythenorth> how about I just put the types in Road Hog, with a parameter?
20:51:31 <supermop> termite ate your kittens?
20:51:54 <supermop> take other names from TTO song playlist titles?
20:53:00 <andythenorth> what is the objection to providing the road/railtypes in the same grf as the vehicles?
20:54:03 <supermop> seems contrary to best practices
20:54:21 <andythenorth> two words together I have learnt to distrust :D
20:54:41 <supermop> someone might want to use your roads with HEQS but no RH,
20:54:56 <supermop> or RH with someone else's roads
20:55:29 <andythenorth> that’s ok, they can fork it :)
20:55:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: you kill people's option to use a different track grf
20:56:06 <frosch123> people may only use andy grfs
20:56:09 <supermop> egrvts would be a good candidate too if Zepheris (sp?) pops up again
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20:56:29 <supermop> at which point you should fork and support an andy only ottd
20:56:34 <andythenorth> I would put the roadtypes on a parameter
20:56:40 <andythenorth> it’s a valid use of parameter
20:56:49 <supermop> too complex for some users
20:57:05 <supermop> idk i generally prefer excess modularity
20:57:21 <supermop> im sure it's fine for a test grf
20:57:42 <supermop> but i dont know that it's best for the grf ecosystem long term
20:58:41 <supermop> also i want to be able to load a road grf with no trolley wire at all, even if that means some of my RH trams get disabled
20:59:02 <supermop> or a grf with no dirt roads, even if that disables my HEQs mining trucks
20:59:05 <andythenorth> I think that more likely, most players never load termite or equivalent road grf
20:59:18 <andythenorth> so the design of the sets is compromised in use
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21:00:01 <supermop> andythenorth: people try to play FIRS with original vehicles too
21:00:30 <drac_boy> I know this isn't exactly a good place to ask but any of you know if theres a particular term or not so much for these type of steam tenders that are part fixed and part articulated axles altogether?
21:01:02 <supermop> are you going to include trains, RVs, ships and aircraft, into FIRS by default, to be turned off by parameter?
21:02:00 <supermop> there is already precedent for newgrf features to fail silently due to lack of supporting grf
21:02:57 <supermop> arguably, RH with steam trams running under wires is failing safer than Firs with no wagon to carry scrap metal etc
21:03:50 <andythenorth> supermop: nah, but people know about industries
21:04:01 <andythenorth> I could provide the FIRS industries and cargos separately
21:04:08 <andythenorth> but that would be…odd eh
21:04:15 <supermop> andythenorth: i still see lots of posts about lack of wagon to carry X
21:04:50 <drac_boy> supermop one silly question, are these "carry X" cargos even defined by cargo class too? (not just cargo id alone)
21:04:55 <andythenorth> but FIRS doesn’t modify the available industries and cargos due to lack of cargos
21:05:07 <andythenorth> whereas Iron Horse removes trains due to lack of Termite
21:05:09 <supermop> andythenorth: what i am saying is, iron horse works fine (no metros) with no track grf
21:05:29 <andythenorth> drac_boy: that’s just a tender
21:05:40 <supermop> road hog, all vehicles will work with default roads and tramways
21:05:57 <supermop> steam tram still runs on powered tramway
21:06:01 <andythenorth> some vehicles will be dropped
21:06:10 <andythenorth> trams should be fine though
21:06:14 <drac_boy> supermop same for 2cc and I think some another north america grf of some sort .. although it then makes it difficult to set up a low-distance high-capacity rail setup due to no matching locos (as they were all under the 3rdrail-only class)
21:06:23 <supermop> drac_boy: i dont think original vehicles support cargo class
21:06:39 <drac_boy> at least last I recall 2cc had its own grf to provide only 3rd rail if you didn't want to use the newrail grf that added it
21:06:55 <andythenorth> drac_boy: it’s a centipede tender
21:07:03 <drac_boy> supermop...how many people even still use the original vehicle? I had thought they all moved onto the opengrf thing by now
21:07:03 <andythenorth> no idea why I know that
21:07:12 <andythenorth> everything you wanted to know about tenders
21:07:32 <supermop> andythenorth: but there would still be a subset of trucks and buses that will run regardless of road grf
21:07:44 <drac_boy> andythenorth ohhh centipede hm that makes sense, why didn't I think of that word before .. thanks a lot anyhow :P
21:07:58 <Alberth> euhm, 56km/h for a steel wagon?
21:08:20 <supermop> drac_boy: lots of players, especially new players use original vehicles
21:08:41 <supermop> because they may not know that new vehicles are needed or even that they exist
21:08:43 <drac_boy> supermop does that not neglect the point of even providing the opengrf in first place?
21:08:47 <Alberth> nice and simple, not too much choice
21:08:56 <drac_boy> I mean opengrf can be bundled with ottd .. while the original grf can't be
21:09:16 <supermop> drac_boy: most people do not know that ogfx+ stuff exists
21:09:26 <drac_boy> supermop so how did they even know ottd existed?
21:09:50 <Alberth> even if you bundle it with openttd, they wouldn't find it
21:09:58 <supermop> i dont know, i found it years ago while searching online to figure out how to run TTO on XP
21:10:39 <drac_boy> supermop..well... clicking on ottd gives you opengfx right away so I dunno what your point seem to be
21:10:43 <Alberth> even if you ever manage to solve the problem of a good criterium for selecting which newgrfs to add
21:10:59 <supermop> patching the game to make original vehicles behave like ogfx+ vehicles is an option
21:11:16 <supermop> but that violates the spirit of the game's primary mission
21:11:16 <andythenorth> we’re having a ‘most people’ argument :)
21:11:19 <andythenorth> and I started it
21:11:21 <andythenorth> they never go well
21:11:26 <supermop> andythenorth: this is all your fault
21:11:29 <drac_boy> andythenorth either way just asking as haven't tried the grf but what is Termite?
21:11:46 <Alberth> and little animals too
21:11:53 <andythenorth> it’s the tracks that are needed to make Iron Horse work
21:12:13 <Alberth> does that speed up steel wagon?
21:12:20 <drac_boy> andythenorth oh ok..been a while since I last saw thread on that grf .. do you have a website for iron horse now or its still forum-only?
21:12:33 <supermop> drac_boy: even though many of us here often play with some or many new grfs, philosophically, there is a goal of the OpenTTD project to provide a faithful clone of the original TTD experience
21:12:48 <supermop> and that means including the original limitations where appropriate
21:13:36 <supermop> the new grf system allows each of us to chose to what degree we want an 'original' or 'improved' experience on a per-game basis
21:13:39 <drac_boy> supermop if its supposed to have original limit then why is there no option to have the original station cargo? or the vehicle limit? etc?? ;)
21:13:49 <andythenorth> drac_boy: the docs aren’t 100% finished ^^
21:14:03 <drac_boy> andythenorth ah nice, looking now to catch up ... brb :P
21:14:10 <andythenorth> ignoring arguments about ‘most players’, which we can’t substantiate
21:14:24 <andythenorth> the problems I have with making Yet Another GRF are:
21:14:24 <supermop> drac_boy: you can set limit of vehicles to some low number if you want
21:14:37 <andythenorth> - I have to get a devzone project, and setting up the repo never works
21:14:51 <andythenorth> - I have to remember a new name to type in devzone
21:14:58 <andythenorth> - I need another shell window and colour scheme for it
21:15:04 <supermop> andythenorth: pay off someone else to do it for you
21:15:21 <andythenorth> - I have to change the content for Yet Another GRF docs
21:15:38 <andythenorth> - I have to make another release thread (I can’t even find the Termite thread) :P
21:15:47 * andythenorth is just having a grumble
21:16:00 <andythenorth> it’s inertia eh though?
21:16:18 <andythenorth> another repo, another changelog, another python virtualenv, another compile and makefile to maintain
21:16:31 <andythenorth> another grfid, bananas entry, bug tracker
21:16:56 <supermop> andythenorth: go ahead and do a road hog roads grf now if you want - until nrt is in a x.y.z release it probably doesnt matter how proper it is
21:17:07 <andythenorth> just for the perception of player choice, and a default state where some / most vehicles are not visible in the grf :)
21:17:12 <andythenorth> let me finish my whining supermop :P
21:17:25 <andythenorth> I get the costs, but not many benefits eh?
21:18:12 <andythenorth> foobar made Termite
21:18:19 <Alberth> you get an excuse for much play testing :p
21:21:11 <drac_boy> andythenorth hmm ironhorse does have some interesting locomotives across what I can see of two gauges with three different electric options
21:21:55 <supermop> road grf name: ANDY - Andy Not interested in Doing this Yet
21:22:01 <drac_boy> am I correct that Raven looks like the NER EF1 in uk?
21:22:17 <drac_boy> as I thought that body resembled the one pikka had
21:22:30 <supermop> iron horse is 'british-inspired'
21:22:55 <drac_boy> Little Bear .. that was a nice locomotive .. hobbled by the breech axe happening very shortly after production sadly :-s
21:23:18 <supermop> with future plans to have by parameter 'Andes Inspired' and 'SAR inspired'
21:23:25 <drac_boy> Cargo Sprinter looks like someone repainted the red Cargosprinter from germany tho? :->
21:23:37 <supermop> I use the Little Bear almost everywhere
21:24:02 <supermop> no, the other locomotives are too boss
21:24:15 <supermop> so a train 4 tiles or less doesn't need them
21:24:31 <supermop> gridiron overkill for short freight
21:24:43 <drac_boy> just curious tho .. what is Double Juice supposed to be relatively modelled after?
21:25:23 <andythenorth> drac_boy: yes cargo sprinter is a Windhoff
21:25:26 <supermop> a high speed bi-mode locomotive
21:26:11 <andythenorth> and similar Vossloh and other electro-diesels
21:26:21 <drac_boy> supermop heh ok..well tbh it may not be that fictitious if it was a 2015+ locomotive tho .. Today's Railway Europe magazine seem to keep talking about many new last-mile hybrid locomotives being contracted for or already in process of being certified
21:26:25 <andythenorth> ‘last mile’ diesel is in fashion
21:27:03 <drac_boy> in somes cases eg Alstorm has one model that is either 100% electric .. or with a slight lower total output as to make room for a single genset in oen end of the same body
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21:28:44 <drac_boy> andythenorth oh I almost forgot but did you know that Vossloh already sold off their railroad side of business somewhere last year? so no more vossloh-built locomotives for good
21:28:59 * drac_boy read a column about that in the europe magazine
21:29:25 <drac_boy> at least I think voith is still into the diesel transmission business tho
21:31:10 <drac_boy> andythenorth mind you I also know there were the electro-diesel locomotives on RhB but for some time now their diesel side had been used very little (probabably partially due to much more of the network being wired at this rate)
21:31:19 <drac_boy> and yep swizterland ^
21:32:50 <drac_boy> anyway thats enough from me about this little topic for now tho ;)
21:36:34 <drac_boy> either way I hope you have fun with working more on Iron Horse if thats the case andy ;) (sorry about that I dunno if I'll ever play it tho? oh well!)
21:38:10 <supermop> drac_boy: iron horse is great for quick games on small maps
21:41:36 <supermop> i've played it on 64x64 maps a lot
21:42:18 <drac_boy> heh well last I checked I still only can have up to 3 railtypes so .. dunno which one would had to be left out .. to our own tho :)
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21:44:28 <drac_boy> but anyway not to cut this too short but I need to afk for a bit .. might be back later or if not after supper then instead (its 15:45 now)
21:44:33 <LordRyan> i'm playing openttd on arch but, after watching a playthrough, it's almost like half of the game settings are missing
21:52:23 <supermop> hmm thats from 1.3.1, so i guess those setting got moved
21:53:09 <supermop> i believe all of the 'max number of X vehicle' type setting got moved to the 'limitations' category
21:54:54 <supermop> the acceleration settings would be under 'physics'
21:54:58 <LordRyan> oh, looks like autorenew got moved to company
21:55:05 <LordRyan> i guess i should start using the search bar more :P
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continue to next day ⏵
