IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-11-13
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12:28:31 <Wolf01> How do I create a patch with git CLI? There are 3297686876 ways
12:28:38 <Wolf01> I already staged the changes
12:29:07 <Wolf01> I always get an empty .patch file
12:36:17 <Alberth> I think git diff --staged
12:39:01 <Alberth> committed revisions are displayed with git show <revision>
12:49:05 <Alberth> I wonder whether you can reliably reconstruct the industries at a map when loading from a Terkhen scenario format ( https://wiki.openttd.org/Terkhen/Scenario_format ) file. Couldn't a newgrf for example check for surrounding industries, and refuse to build as it misses an industry that is listed later in the file, or so?
12:50:11 <Alberth> In theory similar problems could exist in houses etc, I guess
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12:54:34 <Wolf01> If I don't stage a change, why does it commit it anyway?
12:55:03 <Wolf01> Oh, no, it switched panel automatically
12:55:30 <Wolf01> Mmmh, now I might need to reapply the patch
12:56:34 <Alberth> mixing CLI and a smart Gui is generally a bad idea
12:57:30 <Wolf01> Eh, CLI for git is shit, GUI for git is shit, with both I was able at least to do what I do with a single command in SVN
12:58:12 <Wolf01> If only SVN wasn't so attached to it's revision numbers...
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13:12:02 <Wolf01> Mmmh, generic functions with uint arguments.. I need to cast shit out of them
13:12:28 <Wolf01> Or conversion functions
13:13:01 <Wolf01> Another Pack-Unpack... but for 2 identifiers this time
13:19:52 <Wolf01> 2 * 5 bits, but 1st bit is shared between both, so it must be grouped apart as 2-4-4, which allows to be used as TransportType/RoadTypes
13:20:16 <Wolf01> Well, it will be funny
13:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can use templates instead of uint?
13:21:06 <Wolf01> I need to rewrite the rail functions, or write new ones for road only
13:21:26 <Wolf01> tunnelbridge is shared between transport types
13:21:36 <Wolf01> And uses uint for everything
13:23:22 <Wolf01> BTW, the worst problem is just in the MakeBridgeRamp function which is used by road, rail, aqueduct
13:23:42 <Wolf01> I think I'll do one for road only
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14:01:16 <Wolf01> Wtf changes my m4 value for road bridges? I'm setting that at last
14:07:32 <Alberth> set a watchpoint at it?
14:08:08 <Wolf01> I think it already comes malformed, must debug
14:12:21 <Wolf01> Eh... missing 3 bits...
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15:02:01 <Wolf01> Mmmh, no NRT teammates today
15:07:57 <Wolf01> Depots, bridges and tunnels seem to work
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15:33:57 <Wolf01> I wanted to watch a DVD I purchased it 2 days ago... but it's not arrived yet :(
15:39:09 <Wolf01> I might need frosch for the build station command... or somebody else which could be able to find some space for 8 bits in the array for road stops
15:40:51 <Wolf01> m4 is used for station graphics (rail), it could be used for roadtypes, but not sure if it will be needed in future even if we decided to not change station graphics with roadtype
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15:54:11 <Wolf01> Fixed bridges, tunnels and depots
15:54:32 <Wolf01> Need help for roadstops
16:09:40 <andythenorth> what’s the go? o_O
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16:11:31 <Wolf01> Do you get highlighted on "cat"?
16:19:23 * andythenorth afk, watching Outback Truckers
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17:05:00 <supermop_> this seems a bit of an overreaction:
17:16:57 <andythenorth> wtf has shutil gone?
17:23:01 * andythenorth triggered some code designed to handle an edge case, which hadn’t been tested
17:23:03 <andythenorth> because edge case
17:24:38 <V453000> andythenorth: what is the highest capacity/speed truck in roadhog?
17:25:30 <andythenorth> for truck is about 40t, 80mph
17:25:48 <andythenorth> for tram is 72t, 45mph
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17:26:16 <V453000> some nerd is asking :) thanks
17:39:01 <andythenorth> can’t use @property decorator outside a class?
17:39:36 <andythenorth> getting weird results
17:40:42 <andythenorth> it was a wrong thing to do in that case anyway
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18:03:26 <Eddi|zuHause> @property outside a class doesn't sound like a sane thing to do
18:07:17 <andythenorth> I was just being lazy in a one-time migration script I’m writing
18:09:07 * andythenorth needs a faster mac
18:13:48 <andythenorth> I need a faster pc or mac that runs OS X, and ships in a 3lb metal enclosure with > 10 hours battery life :P
18:14:12 <andythenorth> but will an i5 run nmlc as fast as an i7? :|
18:14:29 <andythenorth> nmlc is probably single-core, so the hyper-threading thing might be irrelevant?
18:17:05 <Alberth> hmm, may not make that much difference for nml
18:18:34 <andythenorth> new ssd will be about 4x faster though
18:18:41 <andythenorth> when I unlock my wallet :P
18:23:36 <andythenorth> 98 spritesheets migrated to a new format
18:23:51 <andythenorth> time to run the script: about 3s
18:25:29 <Alberth> text processing and building objects is likely more significant for nmlc
18:27:00 <Alberth> together with making too many copies of the objects, but it's horribly hard to find where you can safely eliminate that
18:28:20 <andythenorth> nmlc speed is mostly acceptable
18:28:49 <andythenorth> but not when my anti-virus scan is running :P
18:30:05 <digdug> hello guys, I have a question: is there any plan to implement autopresigs of ttdpatch to openttd ? It was a feature that I used really a lot and year after year I tried to start playing openttd, but always felt that missing.
18:33:41 <digdug> it automatically converts signals to presigs when a train enters the signal block
18:34:24 <digdug> (and if certain requirements are met)
18:35:21 <digdug> it you never have to manually place presigs, you just place normal signals all the time and they get converted
18:35:39 <digdug> if you build the network correctly :D
18:36:00 <digdug> it is compatible with pbs
18:36:22 <digdug> i used to have both on in ttdpatch
18:36:33 <Lejving> why can't you just place presignals?
18:37:39 <digdug> of course I can, but it's fun to see a signal block autoconverting when a train enters it, and it makes the game more accessible to newbies
18:38:12 <V453000> we don't use PBS all the time, but when I want something work in a very specific way, the game has no way of knowing when to place presignals
18:39:12 <Lejving> digdug, nitrous oxide is pretty funny too but you don't see me using that!... often
18:41:35 <digdug> well, I don't know :( I mean, it's a feature that made ttdpatch so accessible and easy to use, I was just wondering if anybody thought about implementing it in openttd at some point
18:42:36 <V453000> having signals automatically convert themselves sounds to me like a newbie-friendly thing, but for anybody who wants to build something in a specific way it is more harm than anything
18:43:23 <digdug> yes, totally agree with that
18:44:41 <digdug> in ttdpatch it works if there is a block with at least 1 1way entry signal and 2 2way exit signals, it doesnt convert everywhere all the time
18:45:34 <digdug> basically it makes it trivial to build a multiplatform station entry junction
18:45:54 * andythenorth just builds PBS :)
18:46:02 <andythenorth> aren’t presignals dead, except for coop stuff?
18:46:46 <digdug> i'm confused, how do you use pbs without presigs ?
18:47:01 <andythenorth> just build PBS signals
18:47:28 <andythenorth> I know there are people who love using presignals, but eh, I don’t miss them :)
18:47:32 <Alkel_U3> ttdpatch's pbs signals are by default just presignals which also allow to reaerve a path through the block; openttd's pbs signals are a bit different
18:47:51 <andythenorth> although depot routing is easier with presignals, with PBS trains can’t find depots
18:47:56 <Lejving> presignals are faster than pbs
18:48:13 <V453000> Alkel_U3: that is exactly the signal that openttd could use, would be nice
18:48:38 <V453000> andythenorth: any routing, in depots it is just easiest visible due to large penalty differences
18:49:06 <Alkel_U3> V453000: rarely I would use that. I guess programable signals would cover that
18:49:30 <supermop_> Lejving: how faster?
18:49:40 <V453000> programmable signals are utter shit, I dont want to click each signal to see what they do
18:50:09 <andythenorth> where’s the need also?
18:50:23 <andythenorth> people have trains that don’t go where they want?
18:50:38 <Alkel_U3> yeah, it doesn't fulfill the dream of perfect UX :-)
18:50:55 <supermop_> play testing yaam patch has made me spend hours reading about historic signalling practices
18:51:22 <digdug> i used programmable signals for high slopes and very heavy slow trains (with multiplier x200 or more), rerouting fast trains in a specific line and slow trains on another
18:51:24 <Lejving> supermop_, it forces the choice at the split rather than at first signal as with pbs
18:51:27 <Alberth> no need, all signals of the universe are at the OpenTTD wiki :p
18:52:07 <V453000> digdug: that is a very specific thing
18:52:08 <digdug> but i agree, programmable signals are not very useful
18:52:26 <Alkel_U3> digdug: that sounds like routing restrictions, which is different from programale signals
18:52:33 <V453000> you can do pretty much anything with the current signals already
18:52:43 <andythenorth> just build waypoint on the hill, route slow trains through it
18:52:55 <supermop_> karn did not have a concept for how to treat non-pbs signals in his patch, so i tried reading up on other signalling regimes
18:52:57 <digdug> Alkel_U3, yes, you are right
18:52:57 * andythenorth is a low-tech man in a hi-tech world :P
18:53:45 <supermop_> there are railways on this earth that have used 2-aspect signals without trains flying through and crashing, so there must be a way
18:55:18 <andythenorth> excavate mountain, build tunnel
18:55:23 <andythenorth> proper TTD style
18:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> people have trains that don’t go where they want? <-- there are two different things here. people have trains that don't go WHERE they want (=> could use restricted signals) and people have trains that don't go WHEN they want (=> could use programmable signals)
18:55:56 <Wolf01> <V453000> programmable signals are utter shit, I dont want to click each signal to see what they do <- just put a floating sign above it
18:56:14 <andythenorth> 80 char wide, black and white
18:56:20 <andythenorth> with all the script
18:56:27 <andythenorth> they’re programmed in squirrel or something?
18:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean black and green or black and amber?
18:57:06 <Wolf01> Green phosphorus displays
18:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have seen one black-and-amber screen in my life
18:57:53 <andythenorth> I used to work on them
18:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that was 20 years ago, on a system that was at least 10 years outdated by that time
18:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if they still use that system today :p
19:00:16 * andythenorth looks for text-based train simulators
19:00:21 <andythenorth> there were some in the 1980s
19:00:28 <Supercheese> Dwarf Fortress minecarts
19:00:30 <andythenorth> they might be just what some OpenTTD players need
19:00:45 <andythenorth> V453000: done with BRIX? o_O
19:01:40 * andythenorth needs to redo FIRS again :(
19:01:47 <V453000> no, done with how did signals get to calculator "D
19:01:52 <andythenorth> I have one vocal player who hates it
19:02:06 <andythenorth> but most of his suggestions are unworkable, because he’s looking for 1700-1900 or so
19:02:08 <V453000> XD one vocal player is always big deal
19:02:12 <andythenorth> and I’m starting around 1860 ;P
19:02:32 <andythenorth> he’s correct in his diagnosis
19:02:42 <andythenorth> but most of the suggestions aren’t ones I can implement
19:02:45 <supermop_> andythenorth: im playing arctic basic in sub-tropic right now
19:02:54 <andythenorth> because I’m not making a historical Norwegian economy simulator
19:03:03 <Supercheese> he's crossed the streams!
19:03:17 <andythenorth> supermop_: while you’re there, you can redesign it :P
19:03:24 <supermop_> making paper out of palm trees
19:03:48 <andythenorth> he wants fruit, fish, alcohol, iron ore
19:03:53 <Wolf01> <V453000> no, done with how did signals get to calculator "D <- I like to explore new ways to get off topic
19:04:19 <supermop_> tbh honest most of scandinavia is pretty temperate
19:04:49 <andythenorth> the current economy is quite definitely Finland
19:04:56 <andythenorth> Kyoske helped design it
19:05:09 <andythenorth> Wolf01: nicely played
19:05:23 <andythenorth> a Basic economy that only works after 1950 is lame
19:06:08 <andythenorth> do they have sawmills in scandinavia?
19:06:18 <Wolf01> PlaceRoadStop() function receives p2 with some bits set which are documented, but inside more bits are set, I think they should all be documented to avoid passing some bit and then guessing why you get another value
19:07:38 <andythenorth> basic economies don’t have primaries with multiple secondaries
19:07:42 <andythenorth> it’s not relaxing :P
19:08:00 <andythenorth> so forest -> paper mill and forest -> sawmill doesn’t work
19:08:11 <andythenorth> unless I add a distinction between logs and pulpwood
19:08:36 <Wolf01> Is primary economy just reduced cargo variations and byproducts?
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19:08:53 <Wolf01> Or you even reduce number of industries?
19:10:25 <andythenorth> about 20 cargos and 20 industrites
19:10:37 <andythenorth> and most cargos have one source and one endpoint, with some exceptions
19:11:00 <Supercheese> and more import/export industries
19:11:16 <andythenorth> not more, but same, they’re important to shortcut chains
19:11:30 <Supercheese> proportionally more
19:11:36 <Supercheese> they get diluted in the extreme
19:11:59 <andythenorth> oil rigs are a PITA, because they limit viable start date of game
19:12:14 <digdug> mmhh, how hard is to customize cargo and industries ?
19:12:38 * andythenorth has been doing it since 2008, YMMV :)
19:12:56 <digdug> nice :) is there a tutorial for it ?
19:13:53 <digdug> do I need some form of programming knowledge ?
19:14:35 <andythenorth> industries run code for many things
19:15:26 <digdug> so,how does it work, do you have to make a patch and compile the game with your modifications ?
19:15:59 <Alberth> you make a firs-like newgrf, and load it
19:16:59 * andythenorth wonders what the theme is for Arctic
19:17:12 <andythenorth> theme for Temperate Basic is basically ‘where andythenorth lives’
19:17:43 <andythenorth> theme for Tropic Basic is ‘export food’
19:19:24 <andythenorth> theme for Arctic was ‘high value engineering’…i.e. vehicles
19:20:01 <andythenorth> which works for modern scandinavian economies, but quite limited
19:20:21 <andythenorth> only works after 1950, and nearly all cargo goes to vehicles chain
19:22:34 <andythenorth> frosty the snowman
19:22:56 <digdug> are these nice newgrf available or are you make them only for you ?
19:23:21 <andythenorth> they’re on bananas (in-game content service)
19:24:09 * andythenorth needs a theme :)
19:40:59 <Alberth> download it, and install it together with a vehicle set :)
19:41:37 <Alberth> if you get firs 1, select a different economy in the parameters, as "extreme" will get you very much lost
19:58:43 <Wolf01> Mmmh, it seem I can place roadstops on existing roadtypes, now I should check why it doesn't build the right roadtype when there's no road
20:00:35 <Wolf01> I call MakeStation then SetRoadTypes, I think I missed something around
20:01:33 <Wolf01> Right, no road on tile, no roadtype extracted
20:03:02 <Wolf01> Well, shit, 2 road roadtypes made a tramtype
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20:34:30 <Wolf01> Maybe I should move up even the last 2 lines
20:44:09 <Wolf01> Ok, the last 2 lines are useless
21:00:02 <Wolf01> Alberth, do you remember your thoughts about drag&drop roadstops over road segments in wrong direction? Heh, now I have the same problem with different road types XD
21:01:15 <Wolf01> I managed to overwrite the roadtype when building the roadstop, which is not what I want
21:04:56 <Alberth> hmm, good luck with that, gtg now
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21:05:36 <andythenorth> Wolf01: should I pull NRT?
21:06:08 <Wolf01> If you just want bridges and tunnels yes, or you could wait until I make a pull request
21:06:28 <Wolf01> Roadstops are the evil
21:08:42 <Wolf01> But I'm not less stupid, I used the *only* function I made to create the structure for roadtypes which doesn't do any control
21:09:34 <Wolf01> How does it work for rails?
21:10:01 <Wolf01> Can you build stations over rails? And over different rails at the same time?
21:10:20 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I will test
21:10:33 <andythenorth> you can definitely build over rails
21:11:28 <andythenorth> the NG rails in Termite have different widths for \ /
21:11:34 <andythenorth> oh maybe I did that as a test :P
21:12:37 <andythenorth> Wolf01: railtypes - can’t build a station over other railtypes, only the currently selected one
21:12:51 <andythenorth> when overbuilding an existing station, can overbuild other types
21:13:02 <andythenorth> consistent eh :D
21:13:44 <andythenorth> I tried making NG narrower :P
21:13:52 <andythenorth> and I was using my test grf
21:14:09 <andythenorth> hmm economy of sweden
21:14:15 <andythenorth> hydropower is not a good ottd cargo
21:14:23 <andythenorth> nor is pharmaceuticals
21:14:32 <andythenorth> nor telco services
21:15:03 <Wolf01> Heh, nice, to make it consistent then I'll leave it as is now: if there is already a road don't give a fuck and make it the type of the roadstop, if there is a roadstop and you build another roadtype one over it, convert that one to tram in a weird way XD
21:16:25 <andythenorth> Wolf01: just ship it, and we’ll see if it’s weird in game :)
21:16:39 <Wolf01> It is really weird, trust me
21:16:56 <Wolf01> Road A + Road B = tram C
21:17:21 <Wolf01> With one of the two initial roads underlay
21:19:14 <Wolf01> Also if I remove a roadstop from normal road I get... road, if I try to remove a roadstop from another roadtype I get an assert :P
21:19:55 <andythenorth> it’s trying to restore road?
21:20:26 <Wolf01> No, it just seem that it tries to get the roadtype and there's no road
21:23:32 <Wolf01> Oh, that's how you use a function before it's definition... you just spam the declaration everywhere
21:27:49 <Wolf01> Roadstops seem to not do any magic with roadtypes
21:28:18 <andythenorth> 1% of the economy is bulldozers
21:29:01 <andythenorth> most of it is oil
21:30:02 <Wolf01> c->infrastructure.road[rt] -= 2; <_<
21:31:30 <Wolf01> Ok, that's the trackbit count for infrastructure, nothing related to roadtypes
21:31:32 <andythenorth> but telecoms and medicines are not useful
21:34:53 <andythenorth> to be crude about it
21:35:02 <andythenorth> but FIRS temperate basic is 100% realism
21:36:32 <andythenorth> V453000: give me a theme for Arctic
21:36:37 <andythenorth> other than reindeer
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21:42:43 <V453000> idk, focus around heavy industry and wood? for arctic?
21:43:00 <andythenorth> wood -> papermill (current version)
21:43:04 <andythenorth> or wood -> sawmill?
21:43:04 <V453000> that's what she said?
21:43:15 <andythenorth> if I do realism, there is logs and pulpwood
21:43:33 <andythenorth> moar cargos never seems to go wrong tbh
21:43:41 <V453000> do you have no use for goods / lumber?
21:43:53 <andythenorth> there is use yes
21:44:12 <andythenorth> iz Basic though, don’t want one primary -> two secondary
21:44:28 <andythenorth> Basic is discipline
21:44:31 <V453000> lumber goes to tyre plant
21:44:45 <andythenorth> get theme, make set
21:44:52 <andythenorth> no theme, no good
21:44:52 <V453000> idk, one primary -> secondary is interesting
21:45:07 <V453000> -> 2 secondary I mean obv
21:45:20 <andythenorth> it is in Extreme and such
21:45:29 <V453000> but it has no place here yes
21:45:32 <andythenorth> extremely interesting much
21:45:41 <andythenorth> such discipline :P
21:45:50 <V453000> what's wrong with the current one?!
21:45:52 <andythenorth> I used to just make industries I thought were cool
21:46:01 <andythenorth> 1 player doesn’t like it
21:46:06 <andythenorth> also, it’s weird
21:46:15 <andythenorth> 1 player hates it actually
21:46:28 <andythenorth> too much chemicals
21:46:39 <andythenorth> and only works after 1950 or so really
21:46:41 <V453000> inform player about fucking to specific direction? :)
21:47:16 <V453000> yes, I am looking there :)
21:47:30 <andythenorth> I thought it would be cool
21:48:08 <V453000> many straight forward cargoes A->B->C and one which spices it up which makes you deliver to all other secondaries
21:48:34 <Wolf01> Could you add more goods types accepted by city?
21:49:05 <andythenorth> vehicles -> city? o_O
21:49:27 * andythenorth won’t change it without some better theme
21:49:34 <andythenorth> at least this one has a concept
21:49:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am sure vikings already had steam engines
21:49:39 <andythenorth> and not just realisms
21:50:02 <Wolf01> Pax, mail, food, goods, vehicles, construction materials
21:50:16 <V453000> I would say this is pretty damn good andythenorth
21:50:38 <frosch123> bears, dragons, sailing cloth
21:50:42 <andythenorth> it’s pretty good as long as you want everything to be vehicles
21:50:50 <andythenorth> and not balanced with much food or anything like that
21:51:00 <V453000> isn't that what arctic should feel like?
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21:51:34 <Wolf01> You could even deliver only vehicles for what does concerns me
21:51:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: dragons, ok. But bears? :o
21:52:48 <Wolf01> Mmmmh, now I trigger an assert even when removing a roadstop on normal road
21:53:13 <frosch123> something for the kids, dragon food and stuff
21:54:26 <andythenorth> Wolf01: do the asserts give you much useful? o_O
21:54:40 <Wolf01> Yes.. that it's not road
21:54:46 <andythenorth> for the kids, would need to deliver ipads
21:54:50 <andythenorth> and youtube stars
21:55:00 <andythenorth> minecraft economy :P
21:55:02 <Wolf01> Because it's a station, that's why
21:55:41 <Wolf01> assert(IsTileType(t, MP_ROAD)); <-
21:56:44 <Wolf01> Oh, now I understand... maybe trying to get roadbits from a station is not a good idea
21:59:09 <andythenorth> wood -> sawmill -> lumber, pulp
21:59:13 <andythenorth> pulp -> papermill?
21:59:19 <andythenorth> can’t take wood there directly?
22:00:06 <frosch123> Wolf01: there is GetAnyRoadBits or something like htat
22:00:25 <V453000> andythenorth: don't touch it. :D
22:00:39 <V453000> just go draw some roads :P
22:01:04 <frosch123> tram tracks and catenary :)
22:01:24 <frosch123> drive-in roadstop overlays
22:01:36 <Wolf01> Wonderful, now I managed to crash with "Datatype misalignment"
22:01:54 <V453000> frosch123: is it possible that some recent-ish openttd version broke a part of YETI?
22:02:07 <V453000> spefically the part of consuming building materials by worker yards
22:02:29 <V453000> fuckers found some weird behaviour today and Sylf has no clue where it's coming from sofar
22:02:40 <Wolf01> Yeah, infinite recursion!
22:05:12 <Wolf01> Uhm, tt-forums blocked by firefox because contains malware
22:05:44 <Wolf01> At least the attachments download
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22:06:53 <andythenorth> we need NRT graphics eh? :P
22:07:12 <Wolf01> We need to make NRT work
22:07:20 <frosch123> green catenary or something
22:07:50 <Wolf01> Hand me the fixed grf with no catenary tram, plz
22:08:44 <andythenorth> won’t happen tonight, but I can do that soon
22:09:01 * andythenorth has given up on FIRS
22:09:10 <andythenorth> headache I don’t need
22:09:17 <Wolf01> frosch123 fixed it, but I was unable to find it
22:12:28 <Wolf01> It is the green tram without catenary?
22:13:30 <Wolf01> Oh, I expected the other one :P
22:18:25 <Wolf01> Ok, removing the roadstop now leaves tram over the normal road
22:18:44 <Wolf01> There was no tram before
22:20:10 <Wolf01> That's because it's always valid
22:24:40 <Wolf01> Now I managed to remove even the road and leaving tran rails without catenary... which aren't even defined O_o
continue to next day ⏵
