IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-11-10
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02:38:08 <Flygon> In just need to manually edit the coast
02:38:17 <Flygon> And smooth a few things
02:44:16 <Wolf01> I managed to start earning money on TF and now that I started to have fun it's fucking late :(
02:45:50 <Flygon> I MADE A GOOD NZ HEIGHTMAP
02:47:12 <Flygon> It does seem to load quite nicely in the client
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03:12:45 <Flygon> Rivers/Cannels need some fixingf
03:12:53 <Flygon> But I'll do that on my drawing tablet with a pen
03:12:58 <Flygon> Pressure sensitive rivers >_>
03:26:04 <supermop_> hmm yaam patch still has issue with single track
03:27:03 <supermop_> if you've got an 80 mile single track line with only one train, train drives as if creeping up on a red signal all the time
03:28:45 <supermop_> also gui signal sprites don't match the game sprites with distant aspect
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06:28:25 <Flygon> Placing water is gonna be awkward in New Zealand
06:39:21 <debdog> I wonder how big that custom map is?
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06:55:34 <Flygon> Are you New Zealander? I need to know if I screwed the heightmap up before I apply the Rivers
06:55:45 <Flygon> Then the Industries respectively
06:56:00 <Flygon> I wanted to do my part of Australia first
06:56:08 <Flygon> But it's not a lone island
06:56:11 <Flygon> Which makes things difficult
06:56:15 <Flygon> I'd want to do the ENTIRE Australia
06:56:29 <Flygon> But I'd wanna wait for 8192*8192 or 16k*16k support
06:56:43 <Flygon> Or - When we hit map sizes SO big
06:56:48 <Flygon> Timepatches are mandatory
06:56:57 <Flygon> ...as are 64-bit OpenTTDs
07:02:17 <debdog> 64bit ones ain't common yet?
07:05:38 <Flygon> People'll complain if a feature is unavilable on 32-bit because of the fact that the RAM won't be large enough
07:50:24 <Flygon> I wish the scenario editor's land generation tools weren't so rough
07:58:22 <Flygon> The Up and Down tools not being able to work long distances lengthways or... yeah, is really annoyinhg
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08:54:55 <Flygon> Landscaping in scenario is aaargh
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10:34:39 <Flygon> aaa OpenTTD needs a 'paintbucket' tool for lakes
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11:20:12 <Flygon> :U Just because I know what an interrupt is doesn't mean I'm a coder
11:23:14 <V453000> doesn't water spread already?
11:26:04 <Flygon> These are mountain lakes
11:29:04 * V453000 is modelling AsiaStar :>
12:12:00 <Flygon> I gotta place this major metropolis...
12:13:40 <V453000> can't build much shit in that area
12:14:02 <Flygon> I'm gonna have to bullshit out some flat land
12:14:12 <Flygon> Fuck realism, people gotta play this garbage
12:14:33 <Flygon> IRL, the entire city is utterly insane
12:14:40 <Flygon> It's bult like something in Japan
12:14:49 <Flygon> Every usable crevace used
12:15:47 <Wolf01> Bad TT limit to build on slopes
12:16:22 <Flygon> For IRL reference, Wellington, New Zealand
12:17:28 <Flygon> The rest of New Zealand seems... er
12:17:38 <Flygon> Maybe I should've just done my first scenario attempt as Victoria
12:17:39 <Wolf01> I addressed that limit allowing to build sloped stations
12:17:46 <goodger> you mean uninhabited :p
12:17:59 <Flygon> Wait, you can now build stations INSIDE slopes?
12:18:29 <Wolf01> No, I only made a patch for that
12:19:58 <Flygon> Well, graphics sets will need to catch up when it's implemented proper...
12:19:59 <argoneus> horizontal tracks over slopes when
12:20:02 <argoneus> also good morning train friends
12:20:06 <Flygon> That makes life a FUCKTONNE easier
12:23:28 <Flygon> Sloped stations do exist IRL...
12:23:32 <Flygon> Just look at Japan >______>
12:24:09 <Flygon> Remember that railway before the bypass where EMUs needed a pair of locomotives attached otherwise they'd get no adhesion?
12:24:11 <Wolf01> The problem about TT is that you can't say how much slope is a slope
12:25:21 <Flygon> Curved platforms would also be a lifesaver
12:25:36 <Flygon> But that also necessitates diagonal platforms (well... you know what I mean)
12:26:41 <Wolf01> Because if a train could climb that slope it should be almost plain (or you'll need rack/cable) and if a train can use that slope it can also stop at a station, but the same slope could be seen as an almost vertical wall because you won't have mountains with 4% slopes
12:27:17 <Flygon> It's one of those acceptable breaks from realism
12:27:24 <Flygon> If the player plays unrealistically, that's their dig
12:27:32 <Wolf01> So, I don't see why there can't be a station on a slope
12:27:38 <Flygon> OpenTTD physics is kinda borky anyway
12:31:25 <Wolf01> An open-lomo with ttd play style (as lomo lacks almost all features of tt) might be the best game ever
12:39:24 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... maybe i screwed myself over... this coal mine doesn't seem to accept my ship route
12:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: try to keep it modular, so you don't have to fit one whole crossing on the map, but can vary it
12:42:18 <Flygon> I should prolly determine what housing sets I wanna use before placing cities, shouldn't I
12:45:16 <Flygon> Maybe I should just keep the scenario as default as possible, and let the player add whatever they want
12:48:58 <SpComb> 1up'd with a triple-decker?
12:49:00 <Flygon> Oh for fucks sake, Dunedin
12:49:28 <Flygon> Why do you need THAT much bus?
12:50:42 <goodger> simple: most of the running costs of public transport is in the driver and maintenance of traction equipment, so expanding the capacity of individual vehicles to reduce the number of vehicles in service makes it much cheaper to run overall
12:52:12 <Flygon> Okay, yes, that works in a world where the laws of physics don't come into effect
12:52:17 <Flygon> But Germany isn't OpenTTD :U
12:53:00 <goodger> the passenger sections weigh virtually nothing compared to the traction equipment
12:53:23 <Flygon> Passengers weigh a lot duiring peak hour :U
12:53:44 <Flygon> Jus because a vehicle is designed for 70 passengers, doesn't mean it can't fit 130 passengers and 4 Prams
12:53:48 <goodger> hence double-decker trains with a weight/seat ratio so much lower than their single-decker equivalents
12:54:13 <Flygon> If you filled that triple decker bus to the brim with a crush load
12:54:26 <Flygon> It's centre of gravity would probably be around the floor of the second deck
12:54:30 <Wolf01> Speaking of more important things, would be possible to make the depot having a built in path signal? So you place it and train starts if they find a path without having to place a pbs signal just outside of it?
12:54:33 <Flygon> Driver steers a bit too hard?
12:55:01 <goodger> Wolf01: don't they already? I certainly use them that way :|
12:55:15 <Flygon> It's happened here with Hobart's 1067mm DD Trams
12:55:21 <Wolf01> Yes, but you need at least one pbs signal in the line
12:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... now it's using it... not sure if it's because i bought another ship
12:55:39 <goodger> that is, if all the exits of the block are path signals, the PBS overlay shows the train exiting the depot as using PBS
12:55:58 <Flygon> They were completely nuts
12:56:02 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, 20 minute rule? But it shouldn't apply as strations start accept as soon as they see the route can deliver the goods
12:56:11 <Flygon> (Photographed during WWII, clearly)
12:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: as i'm told, the 20 minue rule is gone
12:56:42 <Flygon> By the end of the Hobart system's life
12:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: with 1 ship, the route was 77 minutes, and now it's 39 minutes
12:57:00 <Flygon> They deliberately SDized the Trams, not because they had less demand (they still had crush load DD Trams)
12:57:09 <Flygon> But because there was SO many passengers on the top deck
12:57:11 <Wolf01> If "line usage" shown it was used, it might be just that the destination didn't accept the stuff at the moment
12:57:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and it switched to "yes" a short time after i bought the new ship
13:00:27 <Wolf01> I started to spam buses because I've seen that more of them you place, more passengers will use the line, don't be cheap :P
13:39:29 <Wolf01> One thing I hate is that cities build roads and houses over stations and tracks, so when you have to simply add a catenary to a track you need to demolish a building
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13:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, station bounding boxes seem a bit off
13:41:01 <Wolf01> Also upgrading a station makes all passengers go away
13:41:24 <Wolf01> And please, don't try to add a signal near a train, it will reverse... empty
13:41:40 <Wolf01> Even if you add it just after the train
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13:45:07 <Wolf01> Also, how do you make use all the tracks of a station?
13:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, shipment of coal making crazy amounts of money
13:45:47 <Wolf01> I have a terminus station which is used by many trains of the same route
13:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably also use signals as waypoints, like in train fever
13:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, yeah... one line one platform
13:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> try duplicating the entry, so you go ABAB
13:46:34 <Wolf01> I was able to do it before, but I can't replicate
13:46:34 <Eddi|zuHause> then every second train will use the other platform
13:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> now, need to do something with that iron :/
13:48:16 <Wolf01> Tools, and deliver to city before coal mine stops producing
13:48:51 <Wolf01> It's a cascading effect, I hate when a step stops working because all the chain breaks
13:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> no tool factory nearby, but i might be able to hook up this goods thing
13:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> still haven't built a train route
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14:34:05 <Wolf01> "If you have a second train entering the station on the same line, then you've got your wagon capacity too low. Increase the length of your trains. Reduce the train count."
14:35:11 <Wolf01> Yes, because having a 50 wagons train travelling the whole map is better than having four 12 wagon trains with a 4 platforms terminus station used by a single line
14:35:45 <Wolf01> Ok, it might be a nonsense having 4 trains loading at the same time, but if the game punishes you if you don't transport it in time...
14:36:19 <Wolf01> This is exaclty a case where the feature is "play as developer want" which doesn't fit a sandbox
14:37:40 <Wolf01> And they excuse with a "is because we wanted to put the cargo in the platform, so we need to know where the train will stop"
14:39:55 * andythenorth has 20 wagon trains in current game
14:40:03 <Wolf01> 1 train per line is the solution
14:40:20 <Wolf01> 4 platforms to 4 platforms, 4 trains, 4 lines
14:41:37 <Wolf01> And magically the route planner becomes of second importance, just assign the orders like on orifinal TT, every train has it's own orders
14:43:45 <Wolf01> It is, but you need to avoid some stupid nonsense like this one
14:44:04 <Wolf01> Because rules that apply on some stations mignt not apply on other
14:44:49 <Wolf01> Also, I just switched to electric and I misses a piece of track... but where?
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14:53:21 <goodger> that is one of openttd's annoying little things
14:54:46 <Wolf01> Yes, but here you have the upgrade tool which can upgrade the entire line at once, but only if you rotate the map at 123° with 33.33333333° elevation and -2x zoom
14:54:56 <Wolf01> And still fails in some bits
14:56:07 <Wolf01> It could tell you where the problem is but since the pathfinder can't find a path the whole line disappear
14:56:32 <Wolf01> At least in ottd you will find the train stopped in front of the tile with missing catenary
14:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure why you'd need 1 platform per train
14:58:44 <Wolf01> [14:37:39] <Wolf01> And they excuse with a "is because we wanted to put the cargo in the platform, so we need to know where the train will stop" <-
14:58:56 <Wolf01> Read the thread I linked
15:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm... stupid town broke my ship routes, and i have no money to fix them :/
15:03:17 <Eddi|zuHause> also, menu music is not affected by the music volume
15:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> need to find an autosave
15:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> think i found one
15:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a warning about broken routes... not just stupid main connections
15:08:39 <Wolf01> Yes, there's the warning
15:09:02 <Wolf01> But it's "somewhere the route is interrupted" like the chrismas lights
15:12:57 <Wolf01> Aaaaaaaaah the fucking platform changes at each travel, need to use a waypoint to fix that... 4 waypoints
15:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> then maybe i didn't see the warning?
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15:55:55 <supermop> head a bit clearer today
16:00:50 <Alkel_U3> did you get hammered after the election results? :-)
16:11:51 <supermop> yesterday i soent 4 hours drawing rivers and correcting 'dead end' valleys in a height map, then went home and spent a couple hours doing speed and braking tests of various trains in the YAAM patch
16:12:02 <supermop> just doing mindless meditative activities
16:16:16 <supermop> andythenorth: iron crane
16:16:37 <supermop> chrysanthemum horse?
16:16:38 <andythenorth> I need to finish at least one roster before starting another :)
16:17:02 <supermop> you draw africa/andes ill draw japan
16:17:45 <andythenorth> I prefer you draw africa/andes/japan :)
16:17:51 * andythenorth is not 100% serious
16:19:22 <supermop> and swiss horse and canada horse and russia horse too
16:23:07 <supermop> maybe for research ill move to the andes, drink chicha and take ayahuasca, join the shining path for a few years
16:28:29 <Wolf01> - No houses along this road
16:28:36 <supermop> do road types need sprites?
16:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that's probably far enough away from any floods through rising sea level
16:29:19 <supermop> is the Shining Path still around? can i start a franchise in the Catskills?
16:34:44 <supermop> anyway i have an 8-20 year plan. next 18-24 months will be the hard part
16:35:57 <supermop> andythenorth: what's your priority draw list
16:36:12 <supermop> also maybe i can draw new firs hotel sprites?
16:36:57 <andythenorth> there was talking of grander hotels
16:37:01 <andythenorth> lake louise style
16:37:20 <andythenorth> but if they were all wedding cake buildings, it would look silly in game :)
16:37:23 <supermop> the red-brown lodge looks out of place in some times/contexts
16:38:41 <supermop> i mean a hotel can be different things, but as an industry in it's own right i always sort of imagined it as a lodge/resort type think
16:39:23 <supermop> like an old TB sanitorium on a european mountain, or a WPA lodge in a National Park in the western US
16:41:12 <supermop> as a regular city or suburban hotel it looks a bit odd
16:41:56 <andythenorth> it has no real layout variations
16:42:14 <andythenorth> I am a bit loathe to vary graphics, although there is precedent (grain mill / windmill)
16:42:32 <andythenorth> ideal would be something like ‘variations on a theme'
16:42:46 <andythenorth> same basic shape, maybe use company colour, or gardens or something to vary it
16:43:15 <andythenorth> there is precedent for adapting to terrain
16:43:20 <supermop> the temperate base graphics have a 60s ish hotel
16:43:27 <andythenorth> forests show cactus in desert :P
16:43:29 <supermop> with the pool on the roof
16:44:07 * andythenorth must go out, biab
16:44:13 <andythenorth> if you get inspired let me know
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16:55:11 <supermop> could also draw more sprites for yellow signals guy
16:55:42 <supermop> like european semaphores, american position lights...
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17:18:15 <supermop> andythenorth: grain mill varies by build year, or random?
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17:34:36 <andythenorth> supermop: grain mill varies by build year
17:37:52 <supermop> whats easier, 1860, 1920, 1960 hotels each 2x2 that just get built by year,
17:38:04 <supermop> or a few different layouts
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18:21:57 <andythenorth> supermop: few different layouts
18:22:03 <andythenorth> the date thing is a bit cranky
18:22:19 <andythenorth> depending on start year
18:22:43 <supermop> easier to have 3 different 'hotel' industries?
18:24:43 <supermop> i guess if you start in 1960 you might want some 19th century hotels around the map, but no new ones to be built..
18:33:57 <andythenorth> grain mill tries to do that, but it’s faff
18:36:17 * frosch123 is busy this weekend
18:37:12 <frosch123> so, nothing from my end in next 10 days :)
18:38:01 <andythenorth> but that doesn’t preclude making ottd
18:38:12 <andythenorth> but I am refactoring Iron Horse currently :P
18:43:59 * andythenorth wonders about an NRT branch for vehicle compatibility
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19:31:24 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, 260M, you need some? :P
19:43:54 <supermop> Wolf01: ill take some
20:08:50 <Wolf01> frosch123, andythenorth, what next?
20:09:38 <frosch123> either vehicles, or more commands
20:13:49 <andythenorth> motivating if we can see vehicles running around
20:14:11 <Wolf01> What is expected? Tram running on trams and trucks on road?
20:14:47 <frosch123> heqs running on trails and normal road, other rv not running on trails
20:15:03 <frosch123> blue rv not running on red road
20:16:11 <andythenorth> I can branch Road Hog
20:16:36 <andythenorth> I have to cook dinner in a minute eh
20:16:45 <andythenorth> anyone could branch Road Hog :D
20:16:54 <andythenorth> nml might need extending for extra vehicle props?
20:18:31 <frosch123> i have no idea whether rv work the same as trains with respect to track compatibility
20:18:52 <andythenorth> maybe we need an exploratory hard-coded patch first
20:19:48 <frosch123> given that all the grf loading is already present, i don't think that makes it easier
20:20:51 <frosch123> but in any case we need a command to build a depot for another roadtype
20:23:26 <Wolf01> Did you see the pull request? If it's all ok I could merge it into road-and-tram
20:28:23 <andythenorth> python supports evil rather too easily
20:29:03 <Wolf01> Shit... git stuck again, I can't pull because of not existent uncommitted change
20:30:21 <Wolf01> "See output window for details"... nothing there
20:32:45 <andythenorth> git reset --hard?
20:33:44 <Wolf01> Your branch is behind 'origin/wolf' by 14 commits, and can be fast-forwarded.
20:33:44 <Wolf01> (use "git pull" to update your local branch)
20:33:44 <Wolf01> nothing to commit, working tree clean
20:34:01 <Wolf01> It's what I'm trying to do :D
20:34:24 <Wolf01> The stupid VS plugin is broken
20:34:43 <Wolf01> "plugin"... the integrated feature
20:35:42 <Wolf01> All magically works after doing pull from cli
20:36:03 * andythenorth only uses git in shell
20:36:30 <debdog> there's another way aside from shell?
20:36:53 <Wolf01> When the ide offers help...
20:37:29 <debdog> oh, ide. I am not a coder
20:42:10 <andythenorth> although repeating that isn’t funny any more :P
20:46:38 <Wolf01> Save-load seem to work, I'll fix removal of different roadtypes now
20:47:00 <andythenorth> eh? what did I just type? :P
20:47:10 <andythenorth> was supposed to be just :)
20:52:09 <supermop> ok, after several days of work, I think I finally corrected all of the hydrologically unsound river and valley systems on this heightmap
20:55:51 <andythenorth> should rewrite the generator :)
20:55:56 <andythenorth> landscape gen is crap :)
20:59:24 <Wolf01> Uhm.. macro with macro
21:10:22 <Wolf01> ClearTile_Road why iterate throught roadtypes when the purpose is to remove everything on that tile?
21:11:43 <andythenorth> do you have to check who owns them?
21:13:44 <Wolf01> Also, do you want road removal like rails (you can remove any roadtype) or selective removal?
21:14:14 <andythenorth> that was discussed once
21:15:02 <andythenorth> any type I think
21:15:16 <Wolf01> Good, less work for me :P
21:15:23 <andythenorth> the road / tram split will need handled of course :D
21:15:30 <Wolf01> Now I need to figure out how to change that macro
21:20:39 <supermop> andythenorth: this was real heightmap
21:23:31 <andythenorth> V453000: are you a bot?
21:25:54 <andythenorth> can I crash you with malformed input?
21:30:06 <supermop> but noise or something led to there still being lots of sinkholes/blocked channels in valleys
21:30:24 <supermop> rivers not flowing to coast or in sensible channels
21:31:52 <supermop> cant the generator also take 10,000 years of anthropology into account when placing towns
21:32:43 <supermop> now i have to go through these valleys and decide where humans would have settles
21:34:44 <supermop> and of course neolithic people will settle in hilltops for defense, iron age people by waterways, industrial people by resources or connections to other settlements
21:36:35 <V453000> Fuck off sequence initialized, print "wish humenz good night"
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22:22:40 <supermop> any trains you want kitbashed andythenorth ?
22:25:21 <andythenorth> need some wagons
22:25:41 <andythenorth> but I am automating cargo generation, so now isn’t an ideal point, the spritesheets might change :)
22:26:15 <andythenorth> the needed ones are hacks of existing sprites though
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