IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-27
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00:00:07 <andythenorth> do you have finite supply of each projectile type?
00:00:29 <andythenorth> so no need to auto-switch if they run out
00:00:44 * andythenorth tries to think of other edge cases
00:00:46 <Wolf01> No, it switches only if you find a powerup
00:00:54 <andythenorth> does taking damage affect fire rate?
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00:01:09 <andythenorth> does terrain affect fire rate?
00:01:47 <Wolf01> I think I'll go for A, it scales better with level
00:01:49 <andythenorth> is there any option for sustained fire, followed by longer reload period?
00:02:43 <Wolf01> You mean like a magazine?
00:03:07 <andythenorth> yes, or repeated fire, after which the barrel is too hut
00:03:22 <Wolf01> I considered that for B
00:03:28 <andythenorth> ‘hold down space for burst'
00:03:45 <Wolf01> But with A doesn't make sense
00:03:50 <andythenorth> can I upgrade the fire rate with any power ups or shopping or anything?
00:03:59 * andythenorth just thinking of edge cases
00:04:25 <andythenorth> do the simple thing, it’s easier to refactor later :)
00:04:26 <Wolf01> You will find "level up" powerups
00:04:58 * andythenorth must to sleep, good luck :D
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00:06:22 <goodger> I am mildly disturbed by the UK's new DEMU order
00:14:13 <sim-al2> What's wrong with them?
00:16:42 <sim-al2> I've read that they have a few seats that don't really windows, and a few other minor things, but they seem (so far) to be pretty nice
00:18:54 <goodger> sliding doors, non-Jacobs bogies, unproven line-speed power source switchover tech, they've ordered 1222 cars for more or less simultaneous introduction, and all but 330 have diesel engines
00:19:48 <sim-al2> There's a bit of a loading gauge problem that would probably make for some really short cars with articulation like that
00:20:31 <sim-al2> Nothing wrong with sliding doors, I do agree with you on the other points that it's a lot of new stuff mostly untested
00:21:23 <sim-al2> The vast majority of Japanese trains have sliding doors, including Shinkansens, and the trains that operate in the far north in fairly extreme cold and snow
00:21:44 <goodger> and yet these are three metres longer than the mk3/4 cars
00:22:23 <sim-al2> I don't think the engines would fit in articulated cars unless you do something like the old DEMUs
00:22:33 <goodger> the sliding doors pretty much guarantee increased noise and drag, as opposed to plug doors
00:22:35 <sim-al2> Weight and packaging problems
00:23:08 <goodger> still, I don't have to use them
00:24:41 <goodger> I guess my main problem with these is my memory of the class 395
00:25:53 <goodger> uncomfortable seats, jolting passengers around so they become nauseous, breaking down all the time
00:26:21 <goodger> introducing british manufacturing isn't going to have helped the situation, especially if you're doing a huge volume
00:27:27 <goodger> though I suppose the 395 had a different kind of unwise kludge from the unwise kludge that will probably keep this lot out of full service for ages
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03:44:49 <Ethereal_Whisper> So I've been having problems with my SLH's and started a new game to rebuilt a new network... the trains almost invariably choose the outer track of my ML
03:44:54 <Ethereal_Whisper> Wondering how I can fix this
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05:16:06 <Sylf> Ethereal_Whisper, check signals on the track that trains don't choose
05:16:38 <Sylf> Post the .sav file on some file share site - some one might take a look at it too
05:19:57 <Ethereal_Whisper> I will, Sylf ... currently working on a BBH
05:20:24 <Ethereal_Whisper> Could you take a look at one of my all to all joiners with a TL of 4?
05:20:56 <Ethereal_Whisper> It's 4->2 inner to outer
05:21:12 <Ethereal_Whisper> Inner lanes from the MS so the outer lanes (ML) get priority
05:34:19 <Sylf> a pic of just one section of MSH doesn't tell me much
05:41:54 <Sylf> so,this is not the map you were having problem where trains weren't chosing tracks evenly?
05:42:14 <Sylf> then there's not much I can say or do about this one
05:42:18 <Ethereal_Whisper> I am about to try building my first SLH
05:42:43 <Sylf> other than to say that some curves are shorter than the train length, but I don't know what trains you will be running
05:42:56 <Ethereal_Whisper> Strong class trains, the TL is 4 but they can handle CL 3
05:43:55 <Sylf> there's one CL2 at bottom right
05:44:59 <Ethereal_Whisper> On the west-south joiner from the MS?
05:45:57 <Ethereal_Whisper> Odd, the game measures it as 3
05:46:23 <Sylf> the consecutive zig-zag-zig-zag at the split
05:47:06 <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, before the double bridge on the outer track?
05:47:32 <Sylf> it's the line leading to a tunnel
05:47:45 <Ethereal_Whisper> That doesn't slow down the set of trains I'm using
05:48:14 <Sylf> it will go 112km/h or something at best
05:48:27 <Sylf> not 160km/h you're looking for
05:49:31 <Sylf> if in doubt, send some trains that way and test those lines.
05:49:58 <Ethereal_Whisper> I changed it anyway, heh
05:50:36 <Sylf> there's one minor spot that trains can slow down unnecessarily, but that's a smaller issue.
05:51:01 <Sylf> after the very top double bridge, if the train takes the top split, that CL is too short for TL4 CL3 trains.
05:51:29 <Sylf> but those trains will only slow down to maybe 145km/h for a fraction of a second
05:51:38 <Ethereal_Whisper> Let me send some trains through it
05:52:53 <Ethereal_Whisper> It maintained its full speed of 150 km/h on my test
05:55:07 <Ethereal_Whisper> It appears the joiner I built is balanced
05:58:45 <Ethereal_Whisper> Yeah, I got rid of that :)
05:59:08 <Sylf> when single train covers 3 bends, it's counted something shorter than CL3
05:59:58 <Sylf> (that sentence taken out of context is incorrect, but... meh.)
06:00:08 <Ethereal_Whisper> I understand you
06:09:26 <Ethereal_Whisper> Thanks for the help :)
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06:34:22 <Ethereal_Whisper> Good morning V453000
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07:16:47 <Lejving> Sylf, are you able to start up coopserver?
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08:58:22 <Ethereal_Whisper> I am no longer having outside lane bias with my SLH joiners :)
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12:36:27 <Wolf01> At the end I did A+B XD
12:37:02 <Wolf01> Was easy, one more variable and 2 lines of code moved inside an if
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13:27:12 <andythenorth> where is V453000
13:29:43 <Wolf01> Lol, I linked it some nights ago, he already saw it :D
13:30:56 <Wolf01> Stolen mine too, he alredy saw it before XD
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13:31:50 <Wolf01> We common paesants are always the last ones which see bleeding edge techs :)
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14:06:49 <Wolf01> The time has come to do the game's state machine
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15:14:27 <Wolf01> I have a little domain problem... I need to know the map width to be able to convert the coordinates of a tile to and from index (something like OTTD's TileXY() function); until now I passed the width every time I needed to do the conversion to the "Coordinates" type, I'm trying to understand if its right or if it's better to move those conversion methods directly in the map structure
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15:40:21 <andythenorth> Wolf01: in a game, “it probably doesn’t matter"
15:40:31 <andythenorth> - it’s easiest to read
15:40:44 <andythenorth> - it makes the most sense to find it if using search or similar
15:41:09 <andythenorth> - it doesn’t bleed information into other places that should be encapsulated cleanly in one object
15:41:18 <andythenorth> but mostly put it where it’s easiest to read
15:41:23 <Wolf01> It matter when you need to pass another dependency through 3 classes to use it in the last one
15:42:14 <andythenorth> do you end up including more things all over the place?
15:43:23 <andythenorth> if you’re passing it through more classes, do they all have to import the original class?
15:44:52 <Wolf01> No, I just need to load the dependency in the controller (bad, because it should be passed even there), pass it to the factory then to the tile
15:45:31 <andythenorth> the width of the map is an intrinsic property of the map, or the entire game?
15:46:13 <Wolf01> If it was for the entire game, I would have used a constant :P
15:46:22 <andythenorth> there’s no right answer on proper domain, because you’re converting between the co-ordinate system of two domains
15:46:34 <andythenorth> both domains are involved, therefore no clear canonical answer
15:46:39 <andythenorth> write the code that’s easiest to delete :P
15:46:52 <Wolf01> No, domain is intended as software design, not data design
15:47:41 <andythenorth> it’s two objects though, no? Map, and Game
15:53:11 <andythenorth> Enterprise Concepts :)
15:54:02 <Wolf01> I started to use that when I worked as web developer
15:55:13 <andythenorth> actually it’s kind of how we build software in my current work
15:55:55 <Wolf01> Also on personnel level, everybody had to do only it's work, the designer should not bother about what the developer does (except at brainstorming stage)
15:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> I have a little domain problem... I need to know the map width to be able to convert the coordinates of a tile to and from index (something like OTTD's TileXY() function); until now I passed the width every time I needed to do the conversion to the "Coordinates" type, I'm trying to understand if its right or if it's better to move those conversion methods directly in the map structure <-- can't you encapsulate that with get-
15:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> methods? Tile.Index, Tile.X, Tile.Y?
15:57:31 <Wolf01> Tile.GetCoordinates() -> [x, y] on map and Tile.GetPosition() -> [x, y] on screen
15:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, something like that
15:58:06 <andythenorth> it’s like ActionScript LocalToGlobal(coords) and GlobalToLocal(coords)
15:58:34 <andythenorth> imho it doesn’t really matter what the domain is, it might even be a global utility
15:59:01 <andythenorth> pick the one you can delete with least work :)
15:59:02 <Wolf01> I use the first one for map handling (load from file, edit....) and the second for drawing
16:00:32 <Wolf01> *drawing, movement, collisions...
16:01:21 <Wolf01> Also is easier to convert from coordinates to tileindex than center-of-tile to tileindex :P
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16:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the point is, that this Tile-class could know the width as a class-variable without you passing it everywhere
16:03:02 <Wolf01> I could pass it on tile initialization
16:03:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (a class-variable is a variable that is shared between all objects of a class)
16:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (so if you change it, it will be changed for all objects)
16:04:16 <Wolf01> I have static classes and structs for that, but the map isn't static, that's the problem
16:04:32 <andythenorth> does it change during the game loop?
16:04:55 <Wolf01> Or... when I load a new map it could change
16:05:16 <andythenorth> when you instantiate a map, you instantiate tiles?
16:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so when you load a game you change the member of the Tile class
16:05:43 <andythenorth> pass it into the constructor, or similar
16:06:34 * andythenorth wonders how that’s implented internally :P
16:06:49 <andythenorth> if you store a few extra bytes on every tile, and you have 15,000 tiles....
16:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be the responsibility of the map constructor to adjust this variable
16:07:18 <andythenorth> do class vars consume just the few extra bytes, or 15000 * few bytes?
16:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a class-variable is not replicated like that
16:07:42 <andythenorth> that would be a silly language design
16:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's basically a global variable, limited to the scope of the class
16:07:55 <Alberth> 15000 * few bytes is not worth thinking about, at a desktop
16:08:23 <andythenorth> I am old enough to have been told ‘you must look up things like that in function, to save memory'
16:08:34 <andythenorth> which may not even have been true 15-20 years ago
16:08:54 <Alberth> mostly it's not true today
16:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the variable is "global" for all objects of the class, but invisible for everything else
16:09:18 <Alberth> don't know about 15-20 years ago, but euhm, that's gone
16:09:45 <andythenorth> self-taught flash programmers teaching other programmers
16:09:52 <andythenorth> blind leading the blind :P
16:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: do not assume you're more clever than the compiler's optimizer
16:10:18 <andythenorth> although…flash? Director? You sure that still holds? :P
16:10:50 <Alberth> there is too much insane software out there :p
16:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you can focus your developer time on things that improve an order of magnitude, like saving a loop, but not about switching operations within the loop to try to get an instruction or two faster
16:11:40 <andythenorth> or arguing with the product owner to remove the feature by better design :P
16:11:43 <andythenorth> even more saving
16:13:18 <andythenorth> that is one approach yes
16:14:45 <andythenorth> I keep being surprised that lots of programmers are a bit thick
16:14:54 <andythenorth> maybe I’m an optimist :P
16:17:05 <Wolf01> I think I could remove the coordinates thing from the tile and use diretly the map for that
16:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like Map.ConvertIndexToCoordinates?
16:18:48 <Wolf01> No other downsides than a debug function and some tests I could rewrite without problem
16:19:16 <Wolf01> The map loading already does that it's own way
16:21:26 <Wolf01> Like Map.AddTile(x, y, tile), Map converts x, y in tileindex and stores the tile
16:23:25 <Wolf01> Also when I'll want to save the map (from editor) I just do Map.Save(filename), I don't pass the tiles to to an another class which does the loop
16:23:50 <Wolf01> I could inject a SaveFormat class to the Map for that
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16:32:21 <supermop> forum trolling again
16:33:19 <Ethereal_Whisper> Forgetting to connect a sideline station exit lane ftw
16:33:25 <Ethereal_Whisper> "train 426 is lost" out of nowhere
16:33:32 <Ethereal_Whisper> "what the fuck why... oh I'm dumb"
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20:33:28 <andythenorth> hmm, no OS X compile
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