IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-25
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00:54:42 <Wolf01> Specially this part: "the locomotive engine built by Mr. M. W. Baldwin, of this city, will depart daily, when the weather is fair, with a train of passenger cars. On rainy days horses will be attached."
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01:20:37 <goodger> what the hell is the point of that last one
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10:37:19 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I think I made a mistake somewhere... MoveSnap -> snaps then move
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11:11:07 <V453000> the choices will not be super great once it gets into traffic
11:11:34 <Ethereal_Whisper> How do you mean V453000 ?
11:12:10 <V453000> from the SL, first you split to first ML line, then a split to another ML line, and on that same track is the split to the opposite direciton of the ML
11:12:13 <Wolf01> V453000, did you see the video about the conveyor belt I posted this night?
11:12:28 <V453000> it's better to split the lines first, each going to each ML direction, and choose from ML lines afterwards
11:12:35 <V453000> yes Wolf01 it has been on reddit
11:12:55 <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm not sure I follow you on that V453000
11:15:38 <Ethereal_Whisper> I shouldn't share track between trains going in opposite directions is what you mean yeah?
11:16:16 <V453000> the trains have no way how to choose between ML lines that way
11:16:52 <Ethereal_Whisper> Oh, the blue line splits later
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11:19:16 <V453000> because SL chooses from ML line A or ML line B at one spot
11:19:23 <V453000> you can place presignals there and control che choice
11:19:34 <V453000> in the red place you can't because you still need to let trains go to blue
11:20:20 <Ethereal_Whisper> I see what you mean now
11:34:24 <Wolf01> But you can notice the bridge/tunnelfest this will end up
11:35:31 <Wolf01> That's why I build leveled junctions with PBS and I don't give a fuck about trains waiting for 2 seconds more
11:35:59 <Ethereal_Whisper> Well, it doesn't have a very high capacity, but it is only there at the moment serving 3 stations from the south (they all turn east to join the ML right now) and 4 from the north (1 turns east, 3 turn west)
11:43:24 <V453000> that's better yes Ethereal_Whisper
11:43:44 <V453000> Wolf01: the bigger the scale, the more disfunctional your PBS is :P
11:44:19 <Wolf01> It's not that I don't make bridges eh...
11:46:46 <Ethereal_Whisper> I need to fix the tunnels underneath the SL, I don't know why I did that
11:46:51 <Wolf01> That ugly "U" track :(
11:47:09 <Ethereal_Whisper> It's a waiting bay before a station, it works
11:47:30 <Ethereal_Whisper> I forgot the setting again that enables overflows to work
11:47:45 <Wolf01> Why not building the station between the lake and the mine?
11:48:06 <Ethereal_Whisper> Now there's a thought
11:52:01 <Wolf01> I would have connected it the other way, but this works too
11:53:07 <Ethereal_Whisper> Regarding station direction, I'd rather have the convoluted turnaround be in front of the entrance, so trains make it at least a tiny bit quicker to the drop station
12:05:25 <Wolf01> Mmmh, why the "planning track" of the useless tracks grf doesn't show? Hit track limit with NuTracks?
12:36:55 <Wolf01> A set with RVs for 1850?
12:38:40 <Eddi|zuHause> egrvts and sailing ships?
12:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause> FISH should probably work
12:39:42 <Wolf01> FISH starts 1870 iirc, egrvts is compatible with FIRS?
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14:22:27 <Flygon> Part of me wants to see a ship set starting from 1AD
14:23:00 <Flygon> Of course, we'd need to somehow limit town growth, and also need some extensive industry sets...
14:23:22 <Wolf01> Sailing ships and horse carts until 1800
14:24:28 <Alkel_U3> also losing cargo to bandits in heavily forested areas :P
14:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i imagine sailing and rowing ships evolved a bit in that timeframe
14:25:00 <Flygon> It's just a shame OTTD's time mechanics are so rigid
14:25:20 <Flygon> Otherwise having the game go relatively 'quickly' from 1AD to 1800...
14:25:30 <Flygon> The closer to 1800-1850
14:25:36 <Wolf01> With a point of gamescripts and newgrfs could be addressed
14:26:14 <Wolf01> Game time not, and I don't want to daylength again
14:26:24 <Flygon> Yeah, that's the issue
14:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: you mean like civilization, where the first turns are 100 years and the last turns are 1 year (or even shorter)?
14:26:36 <Flygon> And gamescripts not being able to 'handle' towns kinda sucks
14:26:44 <Flygon> Eddi: That sorta curve, yeah
14:27:32 <Flygon> (It'd be kinda neat to see a USA scenario starting in, say, 1400, with just a few towns, and then more towns get made as the years go by, thanks to gamescripting. Because, y'know, colonization by Europeans)
14:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 1400 sounds a bit early
14:28:14 <Flygon> (Though, I suspect an 'Australia' scenario would be more sane with that subject. 1778 is much closer to the steam locomotive's invention >_>)
14:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there was probably not a lot of serious settlement into the USA before 1700
14:29:05 <Flygon> Either way, gotta give those known large native American settlements a chance to shine :P
14:29:59 <Flygon> Nobody make a "Slave" cargo, please.
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14:32:01 <Eddi|zuHause> a super-shallow research shows that settlement in virginia started around 1600
14:33:16 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> 1400 sounds a bit early <- not if you count Vikings on Greenland & Terranova
14:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't count those.
14:34:17 <Flygon> I mean, I'm counting semi-permanant Native American colonies, but then I remembered that applying Western GRF sets is a bit bizarre
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15:33:55 <supermop___> Eddi|zuHause: Mississippian cities flourished around 900-1300
15:34:50 <supermop___> plenty of trade up and down river with smaller nations outside of their region, as well as some artifacts suggesting communication with central american peoples
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15:35:45 <supermop___> not sure how fun that industry would be though
15:36:09 <supermop___> corn farm, clay pit, quarry, fishing ground
15:36:46 <supermop___> obsidian from pacific north west?
15:36:56 <supermop___> obsidian -> farm supplies
15:37:46 <supermop___> vikings harvested berries for some probably disgusting wine
15:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop___: and then 90% of the inhabitants die because some europeans passed through the area
15:39:22 <supermop___> well the Iroquois nations yes, but Mississippians died out about 200 years before first Spanish arrived in the area due to agricultural collapse
15:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> not what i heard
15:40:22 <supermop___> Cahokia was long abandoned by the time missionaries set up a monastery on top of the main temple mound in the late 1500s
15:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the first spanish expedition from florida to the mississippi found a rather rich culture, and 100 years later the settlers found mostly empty space
15:40:42 <Wolf01> It would be cool if a game script could make a city to unpopulate gradually and die (like the bug happened in an old OTTD revision)
15:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: just set growth speed to 0
15:42:16 <supermop___> Eddi|zuHause: some groups from the north moved into the st. louis area afterwards, but the mound building soceity was no longer present at that time
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15:44:12 <supermop___> idk maybe there is new evidence in the last 10 years
15:44:44 <supermop___> but that was the consensus last time i did any academic study of the topic
16:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop___: i mean, there was an expedition by Hernando de Soto in 1539, who found still "active" parts of the mississippi culture, and one by Tristan de Luna y Arellano in 1559 who found the same areas widely deserted
16:07:26 <Eddi|zuHause> similarly, the first attempts to settle newfoundland failed because the area was too densely populated, and later the settlers found lots of untouched land
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16:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it was hardly the only representant of the mississippi culture
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16:26:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i'm not quite sure what the actual news is
16:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> something about a traffic reform, and most of the rail infrastructure is in the south while most of the traffic is in the north? and then something about highways and ports
16:29:40 <Wolf01> As usual Title says something about just 2 words of the article and then they talk about a more dispersive argument
16:30:21 <Wolf01> The news is: we have a shitty rail network and it will cost big money to upgrade
16:41:54 <Wolf01> So, if I delete some code here and there and change a variable swap to a multiplication, I can really simplify the code... the problem is to get the multiplication right
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16:42:27 <argoneus> Alberth: I was wondering
16:42:33 <argoneus> is tight coupling inherently bad?
16:42:38 <argoneus> ie two classes having references to eachother
16:42:57 <argoneus> I can't really figure out how to do it w/o
16:46:06 <argoneus> that handles all the local game logic
16:46:21 <argoneus> but then I also want to have a separate network entity that handles all the incoming/outgoing network stuff
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16:46:37 <argoneus> this network entity needs to have a reference to the Game to call its functions based on received messages
16:46:41 <argoneus> and the Game should also be able to send network messages
16:46:51 <argoneus> so I have a reference to eachother in them but apparently this is """"bad design""""
16:47:27 <argoneus> I just don't want to pollute the game class with buffers and such
16:47:29 <argoneus> so I split it into two
16:47:32 <argoneus> but idk how to make them work together
16:48:52 <argoneus> I'm not a fan of overengineered solutions using an abstractnetworkinterfacefactory
16:49:04 <argoneus> how should I do it, then?
16:49:27 <Wolf01> You shouldthink which class should handle the work, I would make the network stuff an API and the games handles all the game stuff, while asks the network API to send things and reacts to network events when receives things
16:49:51 <argoneus> well that's what I'm doing
16:49:59 <argoneus> "reacts to network events when receives things"
16:50:08 <argoneus> the network class receives the message
16:50:17 <argoneus> what do I do with the parsed message
16:50:23 <argoneus> if I can't just call game->dothething()
16:51:48 <Wolf01> You will have Network.OnReceivedData += delegate(byte receivedData) { statement statement DoStuffWithData(); }
16:52:30 <Wolf01> When Network receives data it triggers the OnReceivedData and executes all events associated with it
16:53:48 <argoneus> I want to parse the message inside the network handler already
16:53:51 <Wolf01> All the code is in Game
16:54:09 <Ethereal_Whisper> I just built my game's first BBH
16:54:12 <Wolf01> Yes, you can parse it in the Network and pass the parsed variables to the delegate
16:54:44 <argoneus> (I'm using python so I'll have to look it up)
16:55:04 <argoneus> Game class has onHello()
16:55:12 <argoneus> Network class has onRawMessage()
16:55:16 <argoneus> when the message is receives
16:55:29 <argoneus> network handler parses it, realizes it's a Hello, and notifies whoever cares that there's a Hello message from the network?
16:55:37 <argoneus> and Game then does the rest
16:56:04 <argoneus> *something* like that?
16:56:24 <Wolf01> I have the Renderer which works that way, since Renderer doesn't know how to render everything, every object which need to render something needs to have access to the Renderer, but only to tell it what to draw, not how to prepare the texture, resetting the device, clearing the screen
16:57:31 <argoneus> that Game doesn't care if it receives its data from the network
16:57:42 <argoneus> it just cares what to do when it receives such a message?
16:58:27 <argoneus> still dunno how to avoid tight coupling
16:58:32 <argoneus> network notifies Game when something arrives
16:58:37 <argoneus> but what if Game needs to send something over the network
16:58:44 <Wolf01> Doesn't py have closures or delegates?
16:58:53 <argoneus> maybe does I never used them
16:58:59 <argoneus> I never used delegates in any language
16:59:07 <argoneus> thinking now might be a good time to start
16:59:25 <argoneus> it's still difficult for me to visualize
16:59:31 <argoneus> because tight coupling makes sense in my head
16:59:40 <argoneus> two people work together and keep exchanging information
16:59:50 <argoneus> if the game relies on network and vice versa
17:00:10 <argoneus> it's not like network connection is optional in a chat client
17:00:19 <Wolf01> Delegates are like "I hand you this, you can call me when you need me to do this"
17:00:37 <Alberth> def f(msg): # handle message ; return
17:01:13 <argoneus> isn't that just a function reference/pointer
17:01:41 <Alberth> yeah, other languages use more expensive words for it
17:02:08 <argoneus> I guess I'm stupid because I still don't see how this will help
17:02:22 <Wolf01> OpenTTD for example uses them in newgrf loading
17:02:24 <argoneus> if I only needed network to notify Game, then I would
17:02:26 <Alberth> closure is when you attach an object to it
17:02:29 <argoneus> I need them to notify eachother
17:02:35 <argoneus> can I really avoid tight coupling in that case
17:03:11 <Ethereal_Whisper> How should I handle priority merges when building a BBH?
17:03:38 <Alberth> basically you make a number of 'outboxes' for received messages. When you get a new message call the handler 'here is a new message'
17:03:41 <Ethereal_Whisper> It's a T junction, I'd imagine the traffic splitting up and turning either right or left should yield right of way, right?
17:04:45 <argoneus> isn't that basically tight coupling
17:04:54 <argoneus> if I have a reference to other class' functions?
17:05:07 <argoneus> might as well just keep a reference to the whole thing and call them manually, no?
17:05:19 <Wolf01> Ethereal_Whisper: you mean when a train has to decide between left or right with no consequences?
17:05:22 <argoneus> I'm sorry if I'm being stupid :(
17:05:55 <Alberth> an alternative is that everybody gets the new message itself at some regular interval
17:06:08 <Ethereal_Whisper> Wolf01, I think I answered my own question actually, thanks though :)
17:07:02 <Alberth> teddybear programming for the win :)
17:07:07 <argoneus> instead of game knowing about network and network knowing about game
17:07:17 <argoneus> game knows about network, game registers its own functions in the network event handlers
17:07:25 <argoneus> and also registers network's functions in its own event handlers
17:07:30 <argoneus> so I only keep one reference around?
17:09:21 <Alberth> I think the main trick is that you want a set of "known destinations" that you use, without really caring what's behind it
17:10:07 <Alberth> the function you get delivers the message by whatever means it needs to, but you don't care
17:11:07 <Alberth> that way, you can add or remove addressees, without breaking the network part
17:11:11 <Wolf01> [17:07:24] <argoneus> and also registers network's functions in its own event handlers <- one or the other, Game should register its function for NetworkEvents, and should call directly Network function when needs to send... Game doesn't have a "OnINeedToSendThisViaNetwork" event
17:12:21 <argoneus> I'll keep network ignorant to the rest of the program then
17:12:29 <argoneus> and just keep a list of event handlers in the network class
17:12:41 <argoneus> and classes can register there
17:12:50 <Wolf01> You can even reuse Network for another game if you do it well
17:13:06 <argoneus> so all network will do
17:13:12 <argoneus> is receive messages, parse them, and delegate them
17:13:27 <argoneus> ignoring any game or whatever that may or may not exist
17:13:35 <argoneus> and the game will use the network's api
17:13:49 <Wolf01> And if there's no delegate for that event, it does nothing
17:14:07 <argoneus> how to tie a GUI into all this
17:14:35 <Wolf01> You can add delegates from the gui too
17:14:55 <Wolf01> So when network receives a message the gui flases an indicator
17:15:22 <argoneus> I thought I'd do something like
17:15:35 <argoneus> network receives message and parses it -> then passes it to Game -> Game updates the GUI
17:15:44 <argoneus> if I do the event meme
17:15:52 <argoneus> where it's parsed and pre-processed fully in the network part
17:15:57 <argoneus> I just need it to notify both the game and the GUI
17:19:53 <Wolf01> Now I need to change the whole movement part of my code, need to introduce friction... at least I don't need gravity this time or the speed need to be a vector
17:20:03 <argoneus> because if the network message is invalid
17:20:07 <argoneus> it may need to verify with the game first
17:20:14 <argoneus> then I'll just call gui updates from the game
17:20:19 <argoneus> not much of an issue
17:20:33 <argoneus> just give Game events
17:20:37 <argoneus> and the GUI will feed off those
17:20:39 <argoneus> it all makes sense now
17:25:11 <Alkel_U3> Has anybody encountered an exploding beer bottle? It happened to me for second time already today at checkout.
17:25:52 <Wolf01> Suddenly beer out of nowhere :D
17:26:37 <Alkel_U3> well, it was in my hand, so, it didn't really just foof into reality :D
17:27:11 <Alkel_U3> I just touched it with another one and it went boom
17:27:38 <Wolf01> You touched it in the right blast point
17:28:12 <Alkel_U3> I really have to learn where that is - it's the exact same kind of beer as before
17:28:36 <Alkel_U3> at least this time it happened before I put it in my backpack
17:29:43 <Wolf01> From the web: "I found out today, that if you take a full beer bottle, (with about 1.5 in of air at the top), and you hit the top with the right amount of force with your hand or fist, you can make the bottom of the bottle fall out!"
17:30:05 <argoneus> what kind of crappy beer bottles do you have
17:30:14 <argoneus> I haven't seen that happen and I live in a beer country
17:31:17 <Alkel_U3> I happen to live in the beeriest country, I really can't explain, either D:
17:32:15 <Alkel_U3> yeah, the bottle trick is well-known, that's not really the the cause :D
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17:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> "the beeriest country" would be czechia?
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17:36:17 <Alkel_U3> I don't prefer that ridiculous new name but yes. At least from consumption standpoint. :-)
17:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's new? i've been saying that for years
17:37:54 <Alkel_U3> oh right, german language has had it like that
17:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> when i was a kid, and czechoslovakia broke up, i was told the new country's name is "Tschechien"
17:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it might be, but i have never heard anyone say that
17:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause> well, ok, i have heard czechs say something like that...
17:39:51 <Wolf01> It's the same for Italy, it's Italian Republic but nobody ever calls it like that
17:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you might also hear the name "Tschechei"
17:39:55 <Alkel_U3> argoneus: alright you're in danger. Avoid stressing Vysoký Chlumec - Markýz, lest it explodes into your face :D
17:40:45 <argoneus> Alkel_U3: I only drink kozel/gambrinus
17:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (the word "Tschechei" (female) would usually be used with the definite article, so "die Tschechei" or "in der Tschechei")
17:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (which is in line with many other place names ending in "-ei")
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18:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i even bother starting a civ game? the moment anyone declares war i'm screwed...
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18:35:51 <Ethereal_Whisper> Eddi|zuHause, I've known it as "Tschechische Republik" which is analogous to the English name "Czech Republic"
18:36:05 <Ethereal_Whisper> No one calls it "Czechia" even though in theory, we could
18:39:59 <Alkel_U3> Well, most countries have a formal, long name and a shorter one used in normal speech, Czech Republic hasn't had that short one until recently.
18:40:55 <Ethereal_Whisper> Yeah, most have a formal name of "Kingdom/Empire of ____" or "____ Republic" or "Republic of _____" etc.
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19:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Ethereal_Whisper: who is "we"?
19:59:35 <Wolf01> You might need to do barrel buffers to separate refineries
19:59:55 <Wolf01> It could destroy your entire factory
20:02:04 <Alkel_U3> or sections of pipe where you alternate empty and full with pumps
20:02:19 <V453000> or just not set your refinery on fire
20:02:39 <V453000> haha I just modded the fuck out of steel furnaces
20:03:24 <Alkel_U3> I have once, by mistake. I had the flamethrower selected and pressed space instead of alt.
20:04:28 <Alkel_U3> Still, not as bad as that other time when I thought I had flamethrower selected and it was rocket launcher instead.
20:05:14 <Alkel_U3> But I DID kill that one mutated biter.
20:05:54 <Wolf01> I'm waiting for the next stable, I'm pissed off by map generator changes midgame :(
20:06:12 <V453000> 0.14 is pretty much stable
20:06:22 <V453000> the only remaining bug is some map sending shit in specific cases
20:06:42 <Wolf01> Still you change something every now and then breaking my maps
20:06:48 <Alkel_U3> yeah, I was also very surprised at the tears on the map when playing .13
20:07:04 <V453000> well the map generator might change again in 0.15 so ...
20:07:24 <Wolf01> I start a new clean game every version
20:07:51 <V453000> I'm thinking about starting a new 0.15 map now, but it will probably turn into an abomination
20:08:08 <Wolf01> You already have 0.15?
20:09:06 <Wolf01> Heh, yes, you need to test those new tracks in some way
20:09:09 <V453000> mainly testing the new science, and also playing with high resolution :>
20:09:37 <V453000> but the current 0.15 obviously is missing basically all of the new big planned features
20:09:58 <V453000> so if I start it now, over time I might even lose save compatibility, or just get a really wtf map
20:10:12 <Wolf01> I'm stuck with 0.14.12 on my tablet, newer ones don't work well
20:10:50 <Wolf01> Yes.. I see the strings but not the gray panel
20:11:09 <Wolf01> Also I seem I can't find buttons XD
20:11:21 <V453000> could you report it pls?
20:11:59 <Wolf01> I should update again, maybe it was due to a bug that was fixed
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20:19:22 <Ethereal_Whisper> $26 million on new vehicles to upgrade my trains, ow
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20:26:25 <Wolf01> Ok, the version I locked was 0.14.11, the .12 had that problem, .16 seem to work
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21:09:46 <Ethereal_Whisper> I reached 500 trains in single player for the first time ever
21:11:22 <Ethereal_Whisper> And $1 billion bank balance also for the first time ever :O
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22:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i once overflowed the bank account in TTO
23:12:32 <Wolf01> Eddi, do you still have the link about the rant of the Facebook's programming language?
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continue to next day ⏵
