IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-23
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04:00:08 <Ethereal_Shiver> Why do people on some multiplayer games I play build stations with 6 platforms and then have 2 trains serve it?
04:17:04 <glx> easier than adding platforms later when town has grown
04:47:42 <sim-al2> Also on multiplayer people might log off for a few hours and then come back
05:13:59 <ST2> trains, what trains - I only see bars on the pic :P
05:19:43 <sim-al2> The page says it's Dieppe, seems that the station closed in 1994 though :(
05:20:44 <sim-al2> Seems to have been a pier station, right next to the port
05:22:29 <sim-al2> Killed by the end of boat trains with the opening of the Channel Tunnel
05:23:50 <sim-al2> No trace of it left because of port renovations, just a stub next to the main station
05:24:33 <sim-al2> Although the main station is really close, easily within walking distance anyway
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09:33:28 <Alberth> This morning I finally understood what I am missing in my games.
09:34:14 <Alberth> If you look at the game of the guy with the station rating problems, you see he is using a dense industry setting, yet he serves only a few industries
09:35:04 <Alberth> I wondered why, but then realized he is using many more primary industries
09:35:24 <Alberth> that's why he can have this big network with many trains
09:35:46 <Alberth> all transporting the same stuff
09:36:20 <Alberth> I tend to play with a lower industry density, which then means I also get few primary industries
09:36:36 <Alberth> and cannot make a big network like he has
09:42:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: what map size?
09:42:47 <Alberth> oh, very reasonable, 256x256 or 512x512 or so
09:44:37 <Alberth> but it fitted at the minimap without problems
09:44:48 <Alberth> or major scale reducing
09:45:43 <andythenorth> I always use ‘high’ industry
09:46:10 <andythenorth> but that wasn’t enough, so I’ve been using high custom sea values to get more industry density
09:46:26 <andythenorth> the map in the screenshot is silly though :)
09:46:56 <Alberth> sufficient opportunity for ships :p
09:47:22 <Alberth> but not really any major space for trains
09:47:25 <andythenorth> tends towards very busy rail networks
09:47:35 <andythenorth> I don’t build big junctions
09:47:48 <andythenorth> and usually just 2 track lines
09:48:13 <andythenorth> but also I haven’t played a long game for quite some time :P
09:48:18 <Alberth> although connecting lines in every direction does make the junction larger
09:48:18 <andythenorth> they all get boring
09:49:38 <Alberth> well, yeah, once you understand the underlying mechanics well enough for a good network, you can build forever without learning anything interesting
09:50:28 <andythenorth> I also know the mechanics for Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal now
09:50:30 <Alberth> I think people that manage to play it longer look more at the result
09:51:08 <andythenorth> new constraints needed
09:51:46 <Alberth> ever played the freight challenge?
09:53:03 <Alberth> I played it, but apparently, I missed the last step :p
09:54:56 <Alberth> there is also a scenario by Owen, that looks like a nice challenge, lots of water
09:55:04 <andythenorth> oh freight challenge is like a puzzle
09:55:14 <Alberth> there are probably more gems in the scenarios
09:55:40 <Alberth> doesn't take very long though
09:56:00 <Alberth> depending on how much you want to solve it :)
10:00:09 <andythenorth> reminds me of 2048 for some reason :)
10:02:07 <Alberth> ah, played that for a few weeks too, until I understood how it works :)
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10:02:49 <Alberth> but it's extremely tight space in that challenge
10:05:22 <andythenorth> the goal is ratings?
10:08:01 <Alberth> I am not sure, I took the goal as "transports all stuff"
10:08:22 <Alberth> but I missed transport of the secondary industries
10:08:53 <Alberth> I'll have to try that one day :)
10:10:25 <andythenorth> perhaps an ‘every town has a goal’ challenge would work
10:11:08 <andythenorth> nice side effect: could choose how long to play by scaling number of towns at map gen
10:16:12 <andythenorth> goals would vary widely
10:16:41 <andythenorth> from ‘fund one industry’ to ‘maintain x transported per year'
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10:31:12 <Alberth> I haven't finished playing the previous one :p
11:11:10 <Wolf01> Uh... do steam locomotive arrangement 2-0-1 even exist?
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11:49:02 <andythenorth> Wolf01: might be lacking tractive effort that one :P
11:50:32 <Wolf01> With articulated front truck
11:54:27 <Wolf01> 4-2-0 if you use the Whyte notation
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12:01:15 <Wolf01> Oh, ok, the Pioneer one... I should forget the axis arrangement and start to count only with the wheel arrangement, it seem more common
12:33:46 <andythenorth> Wolf01: just finished the Volvo excavator
12:36:57 <Wolf01> I would like to build the bucket wheel one, but no space :(
12:40:57 <andythenorth> I have almost no interest in that one :)
12:41:04 <andythenorth> big Technic, dunno
12:41:24 <andythenorth> I want to break up the Unimog even but the kids won’t let me :P
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12:48:06 <andythenorth> Road Hog just needs checked for bugs / inconsistencies, then I can release 1.0
12:48:11 <andythenorth> so shall I abandon it?
12:48:16 <andythenorth> there is precedent :P
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12:57:40 <andythenorth> trams need that flag
12:57:46 <andythenorth> also mining truck roads
12:57:47 <Wolf01> I'm trying to make a little tender for my little train, but I ran out of parts... should I disassemble one of the locomotives?
12:58:05 <andythenorth> how many engines have you got?
12:58:29 <andythenorth> I like that town screenshot btw
12:58:40 <Wolf01> The streamlined one or the "classic" one?
12:58:50 <andythenorth> you have instructions?
12:59:03 <Wolf01> Yes, but I would like to make my own train
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13:01:38 <andythenorth> if you have instructions it doesn’t matter which one you disassemble :)
13:01:46 <andythenorth> rebuild it later :P
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13:38:29 <Wolf01> Bah, not enough pieces to build locomotive + tender + wagon, I need at least 12 sets
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13:43:02 <Alberth> hmm, scale problem :) most people think in lego pieces, Wolf01 thinks in lego sets :)
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13:45:52 <Alberth> but yeah, I can see that to be useful
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14:16:26 * andythenorth has run out of YT videos to watch
14:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had a "youtube party"
14:20:18 <frosch123> i thought this channel was one
14:21:06 <andythenorth> there are YT parties? :O
14:21:57 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, that xkcd is the only reference i have ever seen
14:22:22 <andythenorth> maybe we should play MP OpenTTD
14:22:46 <andythenorth> there is time for a SV game if we set one up
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14:26:35 <Wolf01> Now I have 14 spare driving wheels...
14:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> then you need to take it apart again and recombine it until you have no parts leftover
14:29:37 <Wolf01> It's hard to add more wheels on a 4-6-2 locomotive
14:31:09 <andythenorth> make a wagon for spare wheels
14:31:19 <andythenorth> you can use wheels to make a boiler
14:31:58 <Wolf01> I don't have any more truck wheels :(
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14:46:31 <wCPO> How do I enable the speed up feature on a server?
14:54:49 <wCPO> Can I go year x other ways than changing starting_year?
14:55:27 <frosch123> you can, if you load the savegame in singleplayer
14:55:30 <Wolf01> Save the game, load it in single player and cheat the year
14:55:37 <frosch123> change the date via the cheats, then save and reload in multiplayer
14:55:44 <Wolf01> Save it again and load the save in multiplayer
14:56:04 <Alberth> in SP you can also use the fast-forward key :)
14:58:48 <Alberth> in MP, all machines have to run at equal speed, which is certain not to happen with fast-forward
14:59:12 <Alberth> ie you'd have pretty much instant global desync
15:07:18 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I am wondering how much power M motors would have at one per wheel :)
15:07:25 <andythenorth> but a lot of $£€
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15:10:58 <andythenorth> always has been :)
15:14:56 <frosch123> i only know the first one
15:15:05 <frosch123> the train motor i know isn't even in the list :p
15:21:00 <andythenorth> right, let’s see I can trigger any asserts in the NRT fork for Wolf01 :)
15:24:48 <andythenorth> no assert so far :(
15:34:34 <Wolf01> Good, so removing the asserts mean they won't be triggered ;)
15:36:33 <andythenorth> Wolf01: all construction _seems_ to work
15:36:42 <andythenorth> I haven’t tested multiple company stuff
15:37:03 <andythenorth> but can’t get any asserts for roads, auto-road, tunnel, bridge, depot, or stops
15:37:05 <Wolf01> Stations will build just 1st road sub type for each roadtype
15:37:47 <andythenorth> also dynamite and remove tools - can’t trigger anything
15:38:25 <Wolf01> Remove I think just removes the old stuff, but leaves bits in m4 there
15:38:55 <Wolf01> Try using the land info tool
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15:44:12 * andythenorth makes a new test grf
15:49:24 <andythenorth> “Attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 82)"
15:50:36 <Wolf01> Wrong label or something
15:51:20 <andythenorth> happens when there are three types in the grf
15:52:07 <Wolf01> I have no clue, I just copy/pasted from rails
16:00:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ o_O
16:02:17 <Wolf01> I think I found the problem
16:02:23 <Wolf01> if (id + numinfo > ROADTYPE_END) {
16:02:47 <Wolf01> It should be ROADSUBTYPE_END
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16:03:40 <andythenorth> if we can get grf loading working with multiple types, I’ll make a bunch of test cases
16:09:57 <Wolf01> Patchy patch committed, and it loads
16:19:52 <Wolf01> I'll try to draw sprites from roadtypeinfo instead the hardcoded ones
16:20:01 <Wolf01> So you'll be able to replace even those
16:22:34 <Wolf01> Heh, all the road_land.h stuff...
16:41:45 <andythenorth> Wolf01: confirmed working for me
16:41:51 <andythenorth> now I need a flag to make it tram, not road
16:42:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: propose a var name and number for tram/road flag? I assume it’s just a bool…
16:45:55 <Wolf01> We said to use 2 different features, if road is 0x18, tram is 0x19
16:49:17 * andythenorth will need a bigger nml patch
16:50:38 <frosch123> yep, two features, so that ids are all separate
16:52:14 <Wolf01> With one feature you would be able to define just up to 16 roadtypes (road+tram) => 15 roads and 1 tram, 15 trams 1 road, 8 roads and 8 trams
16:53:21 * andythenorth wonders how not to have a lot of copy-paste nml code
16:54:20 <frosch123> how do vehicles do it?
16:54:41 <andythenorth> I will look, maybe there are functions
16:57:38 <Alberth> can you create or destroy an object from a NOGO script? I'd like to place and remove transmitters, but I couldn't find a call for it
16:58:33 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 14 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Zuu> Perhaps because it was "free" space near ground floor that you couldn't use for offices.
16:59:22 <frosch123> Alberth: given that objects have no name to identify them with, i doubt :)
16:59:40 <Alberth> good idea andy, too bad it didn't fly
17:01:18 <Alberth> hmm, tiles should be able to have them, maybe that gives a clue
17:03:35 <Alberth> nope, can't ask tile type either
17:08:05 <Alberth> ok, so not possible, and not trivial to add
17:16:41 <Wolf01> I made a mistake, somewhere
17:16:58 <Wolf01> Like this one RoadTypeIdentifier roadtype_map[ROADTYPE_END][ROADSUBTYPE_END];
17:20:35 <Wolf01> uint8 *roadtypes = AllocaM(uint8, idcount); <- how do I change this one to be able to use the above one?
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17:22:04 <Wolf01> I copied it from RailTypeMapSpriteGroup, but it's not the same
17:23:24 <frosch> roadtypes[i] = _cur.grffile->roadtypes_map[feature_to_roadtype][buf->ReadByte()];
17:38:34 <Wolf01> Nice,, I forgot a ) or a ] somewhere in the code and now every single file has error...
17:39:28 <frosch> i always forget the ; at the end of class definitions
17:44:59 <Wolf01> Nice, changing a type resolved the error
17:45:15 <Wolf01> Maybe it was used in some template
18:04:37 <Wolf01> Nice, GetRoadTypes(ti->tile) asserts in DrawRoadBits
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18:15:05 <Wolf01> Ok, I can draw roadbits from roadtypeinfo now, but I don't know how to load them from grf
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18:33:47 <Wolf01> image = _road_sloped_sprites[ti->tileh - 1] + SPR_TRAMWAY_SLOPED_OFFSET; <- any idea on how I could define this in the roadtypeinfo?
18:36:01 <frosch> you only put the SPR_TRAMWAY_SLOPED_OFFSET into it
18:36:15 <frosch> the _road_slopes_sprites stays the same for every type
18:37:19 <frosch> it's similar to "base_sprites" in railtype
18:38:51 <Wolf01> Single sprites are easy, but for roadbits for example I need to understand how they are handled
18:39:43 <frosch> well, you may not do it exactly the same for newgrf types
18:39:59 <Wolf01> Also, it's only in the hardcoded roadtypeinfo the problem, as every grf has it's own sprites
18:40:21 <Wolf01> So most offset are meaningless
18:41:41 <Wolf01> Maybe they are only set to 0, because if you define more roadtypes you need to use them too
18:42:34 <frosch> hmm, yeah, given that there is only one built-in road and tram type
18:42:46 <frosch> maybe it's not even worth moving those constants to a table
18:43:23 <frosch> just "if newgrf-defined { GetCustomRoadSrpite } else { use offsets }"
18:44:18 <Wolf01> That would be cool, if I'll ever understand how to do it
18:47:15 <frosch> RailTypes have UsesOverlay()
18:47:46 <Wolf01> I don't think this bracnh is in sync
18:48:27 <Wolf01> I don't even know how to do it
18:48:38 <Wolf01> I just cloned andy's repository :P
18:48:58 <andythenorth> that was a clone of openttd trunk :)
18:54:42 <Wolf01> Another thing I don't really understand is tram road bits sprites
18:59:07 <Wolf01> If roads have 0, 0x546, 0x545, 0x53B, 0x544, 0x534, 0x53E, 0x539..., in the code there is (roadbits)-SPR_ROAD_Y, do trambits have low number sprites?
19:00:33 <Wolf01> image = _road_tile_sprites_1[tram] - SPR_ROAD_Y; <- "0 - 1332" what is the result?
19:00:48 <Wolf01> Ok, that might not happen
19:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly are you trying to do?
19:03:53 <Wolf01> Generalising the function by moving some hardcoded stuff into the roadtypeinfo
19:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> if road sprite is selected by SPR_ROAD_BASE + roadbits, then tram sprite should be selected by SPR_TRAM_BASE + trambits
19:07:59 <Wolf01> I think it's because this part of the code does some weird stuff trying to hide the road sprite when there is only tram
19:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what you're talking about
19:13:04 <Wolf01> road_cmd.cpp DrawRoadBits()
19:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so, from what i gather, _road_tile_sprites_1 contains sprite IDs from the SPR_ROAD_* range
19:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so this operation above calculates the offset from the raw sprite numbers
19:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> presumably to add that offset to something else later
19:18:59 <Wolf01> No, it just draws in the next line
19:19:08 <Wolf01> It seem to draw a terrain sprite
19:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> image += (road == ROAD_NONE) ? SPR_TRAMWAY_TRAM : SPR_TRAMWAY_OVERLAY;
19:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so first you calculate the offset, then you add that offset to _TRAM or _OVERLAY, depending on whether there should be road drawn or not
19:20:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you could refactor that so that _road_tile_sprites contains the offset directly, this problably needs adjusting in the road drawing code
19:21:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and _road_tile_sprites_1[0] is 0 because there can't be no trackbits
19:21:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so this value is never read
19:21:56 <Wolf01> Or I could do every single combination like in DrawTrackBits(), but I like more the DrawRoadBits() way
19:23:13 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 10 16 1332
19:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you could refactor this mapping from roadbits to sprite offsets, because it's probably needed in more places
19:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but the mapping is perfectly logical, 1,2,4 and 8 are the single end bits, 5 and 10 are the straight roads, etc.
19:35:05 <Wolf01> Ok, half of my brain understood what you are saying and even know what to do, but the other half doesn't want to collaborate
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19:37:27 <Wolf01> Yes, exactly, but my halves don't disagree, one of them is just stupid as fuck
19:42:51 <Wolf01> I need to put that stupid to sleep again, he awakened some hours ago and then I wasn't able to do anytning since...
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19:57:43 <andythenorth> Wolf01: you know how the sprite offsets work, yes? o_O
19:57:53 <andythenorth> and then it’s doing something with adding bits
20:25:52 <Wolf01> andythenorth, yes, I know how it works, but I have some brain problems this evening
20:26:24 <Wolf01> I think it's better if I sleep for half an hour
20:26:59 * andythenorth has brain problems most days
20:27:37 <Wolf01> Because when you are writing something and at the same time you yell "wtf am I writing, it doesn't work that way" then something is not right
21:08:23 <argoneus> good evening train friends
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21:28:43 <andythenorth> this way my brain does not work
21:37:43 <Wolf01> Heh... put these axles on rails and roll them to destination
21:42:16 * andythenorth needs to patch NML
21:57:16 <Wolf01> V453000, the guy who posted the burner furnace smelter must be crazy, do you agree? ;)
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22:11:14 <V453000> it's awesome, I love it
22:11:57 <Wolf01> Too much thinking on it, I'm for simple solutions: 1 belt with one side ore and other side fuel
22:12:54 <Wolf01> Or 2 belts and >9000 logistic bots
22:13:39 <V453000> using a simple solution is certainly totally fine as well
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