IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-22
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02:11:49 <welshdragon> Morning, Is there a way to tell YAPF to prefer through platforms over terminus ones?
02:12:05 <welshdragon> Want to avoid waypoints at all costs
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11:26:35 <Alberth> andythenorth: Valuables in Buildwas open tram?
11:27:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: why not? :D
11:28:04 <andythenorth> it’s a side effect of ‘open trams are the default for unknown cargos'
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11:37:58 <welshdragon> Morning, Is there a way to tell YAPF to prefer through platforms over termini ones?
11:38:58 <frosch123> yapf prefers platforms that fit the train length
11:39:04 <frosch123> so maybe make the terminus ones one tile longer
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11:56:18 <welshdragon> or make the trains 2x longer? ;)
12:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you should prefer shorter trains rather than longer trains
12:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively, you could just skip this station in the orders (without non-stop), so as long as there is no path around it, trains will take the through platforms and stop there (forming an implicit order)
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18:52:22 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 1 day, 4 hours, 3 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <Pikka> why is 90 too small? That's more than two rail coaches
18:52:32 <Wolf01> Today I took a pause... I don't know if I resist until tomorrow XD
18:52:51 <andythenorth> we have wolf frog dragon, but no bird
18:52:56 <andythenorth> also…where is cat? o_O
18:56:09 <andythenorth> Wolf01: resist tanks, or resist NRT?
18:56:31 <Wolf01> Both, no development weekend, I worked too much this week
18:57:07 <Wolf01> The problem is: will I return to work on it monday?
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19:42:07 <Ethereal_Shiver> LL5RR is enough gap between directions for a TL3 game right?
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19:54:31 <asie> Does anyone have contact with the OpenTTD DS developers/
19:54:47 <asie> Looking into the technical aspects of making a 3DS port, seeing as that platform has a lot more power and it could be actually viable
19:55:27 <Ethereal_Shiver> asie, the people who might would probably be in #openttd.dev (though most are probably in here too, so idk)
19:55:31 <Alberth> do we have such a thing?
19:55:37 <asie> There was one, years ago.
19:55:39 <Alberth> likely it has a forum thread then
19:55:58 <Alberth> you could try a PM to the author
19:56:31 <Alberth> #openttd.dev is moslt for review discussions, mostly unused now
19:56:33 <asie> one thing that worries me, though, is that the 3DS total screen surface is *not* a rectangle
19:56:39 <asie> it's 400x240 on top, 320x240 on bottom
19:56:43 <asie> this introduces some complications
19:57:13 <asie> i could just make it a 320x480 screen but then valuable estate is lost
19:57:17 <Alberth> how did they manage that?
19:57:26 <asie> it does have two screens
19:57:34 <asie> it's not particularly hard to have two screens of different aspect ratios
19:57:45 <asie> but i don't think OTTD is ready for that case
19:58:18 <Alberth> or make a video driver with two output screens, perhaps
19:58:49 <asie> i'll probably look into how the DS port did it, then ignore most of the advice as instead of 4MB of RAM I have about 16 times that to use
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20:21:12 <Alberth> I was thinking to add non-movables like the radio transmitter to the map, but I can't see a way to add or remove them
20:21:43 <Alberth> it's not a hard limit, but you can play by your own rules anyway :)
20:21:53 <Alberth> and as first experiment perhaps not so bad
20:24:17 <Alberth> my guess it would block lines
20:25:20 <Ethereal_Shiver> Or if I have to build a separate one
20:25:27 <Alberth> ie a train at the closest main line track would block a train at the furthest side line
20:25:52 <Ethereal_Shiver> Well, "blocking" is a way to put it, since it's a priority merger, I guess
20:26:08 <Alberth> there is no signal from the end of detection track to both main lines
20:26:17 <Alberth> so they act the same, I think
20:30:51 <Alberth> trains at one main line, and at the opposite side line :)
20:31:32 <Alberth> or even 1 train, you can just stop it on the detection area
20:32:22 <Ethereal_Shiver> Oh I get you now
20:32:34 <Ethereal_Shiver> Yeah, sounds like it would
20:33:42 <Alberth> move one of the merge points, so you can have 2 detection tracks after each other?
20:34:56 <Wolf01> Oh, presignal contraptions :D
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20:36:12 <Wolf01> You'll end up with a full touring complete calculator in a 4196 map in no time1024*4
20:36:20 <Alberth> I always somewhat wonder if making main lines different in height would be helpful
20:37:24 <Wolf01> Do you know what could be helpful? Eddi suggestion about elevated tracks
20:37:32 <Alberth> why don't you make the main lines straight?
20:37:53 <Ethereal_Shiver> Well, height difference in crossing is always helpful, but in practice, building bridges/tunnels on the sidelines is what I find better, because they're the ones you care less about
20:38:26 <Ethereal_Shiver> Alberth, you mean make it L_L5R_R instead of LL5RR?
20:38:42 <Alberth> if _ means space, yes
20:39:04 <Alberth> 2 tiles spaces, actually, by the looks of it
20:39:50 <Alberth> what I mean is build the entire side lines 1 tile higher
20:40:36 <Ethereal_Shiver> I'm going to restart another game later (maybe play multiplayer actually now that I'm comfortable with building ML's that are bigger than double track
20:44:06 <Alberth> or build one main line 1 tile higher than the other
20:47:03 <Ethereal_Shiver> Higher as in elevation?
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20:54:42 <Alberth> Wolf01: so what happens if there is a train at one main line, and at the opposite side line?
20:55:44 <Alberth> at the side line? or at the detection?
20:55:46 <Wolf01> Oh, that, you meant line 2 blocking line 4
20:56:22 <Alberth> I have no doubt priority makes the main line go through :)
20:56:39 <Wolf01> At least 2 and 3 don't block themselves
20:57:21 <Wolf01> I just fixed one of the problema of the first picture linked :P
20:57:55 <Alberth> ah, so it had even more problems than I thought :)
21:02:41 <Wolf01> This was one of the cases where a PBS-preignal was needed, as 1 or 4 could be blocked by any other, but still with PBS-presignals 2 and 3 could block both 1 and 4
21:02:59 <Wolf01> The only solution is to split the priority
21:03:10 <Wolf01> It solves all the problems ;)
21:03:33 <Alberth> except the space problem :p
21:03:47 <Wolf01> Plenty of space in a 4096 map
21:04:08 <Alberth> never tried that, I'd get lost :p
21:05:07 <Alberth> although no useful way to get to the other side, before 2000 or so
21:05:44 <Alberth> not sure how fast NUTS is
21:05:59 <Alberth> maybe it has fast enough engines sooner
21:09:14 <Ethereal_Shiver> Alberth, NUTS has some good options, though in practice I almost always end up using the "strong" class of trains
21:09:36 <Ethereal_Shiver> They have enough acceleration to not need long priority merges so your side lines don't get backed up
21:09:44 <Alberth> medium is faster at long stretches
21:09:57 <Ethereal_Shiver> The "fast" class is kinda meh
21:10:04 <Ethereal_Shiver> I don't like using it for cargo
21:10:18 <Alberth> fast isn't faster enough, due to less power
21:10:47 <Ethereal_Shiver> It would be a good class of trains if you played with a low amount of industries but that's really about it
21:10:49 <Alberth> I have had cases where medium was actually faster then fast
21:11:17 <Ethereal_Shiver> What TL do you usually play with?
21:11:24 <Alberth> but then I use freight multipliers :p
21:11:41 <Alberth> euhm, varies between 5 and 8 or so
21:12:02 <Ethereal_Shiver> Ah yeah, fast is pretty garbage longer than 4
21:12:09 <Ethereal_Shiver> Takes half the map to get up to speed
21:12:20 <Alberth> likely it's not even consistent at the network :p
21:13:06 <Alberth> I don't have packed lines, as stuff may break down, so I need space to not block the entire network
21:13:19 <Ethereal_Shiver> Ah, I play with breakdowns off
21:13:27 <Ethereal_Shiver> I end up with a lot of depots I call "upgrade depots" though
21:13:40 <Alberth> oh, I also do servicing
21:14:02 <Alberth> which means trains go in pretty much any direction you can imagine
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21:14:22 <Alberth> so I built junctions that trains can go in any direction they want
21:14:55 <Alberth> which also means I can just add new connections without worrying whether the destination is reachable
21:14:57 <Ethereal_Shiver> Vast majority of my junctions are only 2-way by design
21:16:03 <Ethereal_Shiver> I'll just build a different SL nearby which sort of makes it 3-way sort of
21:16:05 <Alberth> works if you don't do servicing
21:17:50 <Alberth> I should code a newgrf so I have always fast maglev, then I can do experiments with a fast back bone where you connect to, for all cargo
21:18:46 <Alberth> sort of centralized general transport service
21:19:25 <Alberth> cargo-dist between all industries would be trivial :p
21:32:30 <andythenorth> single tile trains
21:32:49 <andythenorth> hmm, is single tile optimum?
21:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> efficiency of a train line is dependent on the ratio between capacity of a train to the distance between the start of the train and the start of the next train on the line. so high acceleration and long trains are more efficient
21:39:36 <Eddi|zuHause> while efficiency of a junction benefits from shorter trains
21:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause> because there are better gaps to slip in
21:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so what's optimum for your network depends on how many junctions you have
21:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you get to an area where you have only junctions and no straight tracks, to get even close to where single tile would be optimal, you should better consider road vehicles
21:42:23 <andythenorth> 1 tile trains waste a lot of tiles to red signals?
21:42:46 <andythenorth> so capacity per tile is lower?
21:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> when a train is stopped at a red signal, because there is a train ahead, it then starts accelerating slowly, so the end gap when both trains are at full speed is much longer than signal distance
21:43:46 <andythenorth> how do we define efficiency? Utilisation per tile of track?
21:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> more acceleration decreases this distance
21:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> capacity per time at a waypoint/station
21:44:06 <Alberth> amount of cargo / time unit
21:44:22 <andythenorth> if the goal was simply to move 1m tonnes of coal in least time, would the same efficiency rules hold?
21:45:05 <Alberth> 1m looks sufficient like a continuous stream
21:45:21 <Alberth> ie 1t would be different
21:45:34 <andythenorth> if the goal was adjusted to give a bonus for coal delivered earlier, and penalise coal delivered later…would the same rules hold?
21:46:19 * andythenorth is trying to find the relation between transport efficiency (larger is better) and production efficiency (1 piece flow, or close to 1 piece usually wins out)
21:46:43 <Alberth> depends on bonuses and penalties, I think
21:47:15 <Wolf01> I'm wondering which plug I will get for the DC adapter for the lego lithium battery pack
21:47:37 <Alberth> ie if you have to drive twice or wait a long time, high bonus and low penalty makes driving twice useful
21:47:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you're running into a john-nash-problem there. where if each cargopacket were to try to optimise its own result individually, the efficiency of the whole network goes down
21:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the "absolute" optimal solution is a fully timetabled network where no junction ever has a collision (no train is ever waiting at a red signal). and then you try to make the trains as long as possible
21:50:31 * andythenorth compares the inventory in each case
21:51:24 <andythenorth> for transport, inventory (capital tied up) is engines and people; land and wagons are approximately fixed
21:51:49 <andythenorth> for production, inventory is materials and land
21:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what you're trying to say
21:52:23 <andythenorth> efficient factories make for inefficient transport, and vice versa
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21:53:12 <andythenorth> efficient factory delivers 1 unit sooner, to minimise inventory and get cashflow faster
21:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like, if a factory tries to streamline its process so that it doesn't have to store raw materials, it puts more stress on the transport to get the raw materials there in time?
21:53:31 <andythenorth> efficient transport builds larger batches, minimising cost of locomotion and people
21:54:02 <andythenorth> this is why ‘lean’ production is such a thing with books and consultants and so on, and not just business as usual
21:54:07 <Eddi|zuHause> luckily, this is a transport simulation, not a production simulation
21:54:28 * andythenorth uses 5 tile trains usually
21:55:09 <Alberth> I often use shorter trains
21:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i tend towards longer trains
21:55:33 <Alberth> although I typically do put down 5 tile stations to avoid having to change them later
21:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> like, 8 tile trains and 12 tile signal distance
21:56:31 <Alberth> 8 tiles doesn't work in 1870 :p
21:57:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever started before 1920
21:57:40 <Alberth> iron horse starts earlier :)
21:58:03 <Eddi|zuHause> train sets, ship sets, road vehicle sets... all need to match
21:58:33 <Alberth> road hog has nice tramz
21:58:43 <Alberth> no need for other road
21:58:49 <andythenorth> 1900 is about right for starting with my sets
21:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that didn't exist the last time i played :p
21:58:58 <andythenorth> they’ll go back to 1870, but slow
21:59:32 <Alberth> 1860 iirc, was the game report, but I guessed that was a bit too early :)
22:00:21 <Alberth> I guess I get new engines around 1900?
22:02:22 <Alberth> not sure what to think of that; it's nice not to have to select a new engine all the time, but on the other hand the entire network now runs 1 or 2 models
22:02:41 <Alberth> one for cargo and one for pax
22:03:23 <andythenorth> ‘one obvious choice’ :)
22:03:39 <andythenorth> it mixes up a bit when the electric train arrives
22:03:42 <andythenorth> joker in the pack
22:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i like diversity
22:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> if there is only ever one "choice", i get bored
22:05:46 <Alberth> plenty of train sets for that :)
22:06:17 <Alberth> I care more about tracks and cargo than about engines or wagons
22:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it's also not good to get drowned in choices :p
22:07:27 <Alberth> it needs a "do random suggestion" button :p
22:07:49 <andythenorth> no choice at all? o_O
22:07:58 <Alberth> although not completely random probably
22:08:49 <Alberth> you can do NUTS and play with a single engine the entire game :)
22:09:00 <Alberth> model life is 255 years :)
22:09:14 <andythenorth> the way I look at it, you’ve already chosen to build a train, not a narrow gauge train, a truck, tram, plane, ship or pipeline
22:09:21 <andythenorth> so the engine is just a detail :P
22:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but sometimes the details are the interesting bits
22:10:27 <andythenorth> choose different wagons :)
22:10:59 <Alberth> yeah, that might be better, different engines doesn't work well
22:11:24 <Alberth> maybe have different engines but with same stats :p
22:11:47 <andythenorth> random graphics :)
22:11:47 <Alberth> just another kind of wagon :p
22:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a reason why CETS has around 5 engines per generation, and the generations usually overlap a bit
22:12:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: what year did you reach? o_O
22:13:06 <Alberth> and a bit bored with the game, BB gives useless goals
22:13:40 <andythenorth> I quit my last few BB games
22:14:47 <Alberth> for me, a big part of the fun is puzzling how to make the network fit and work under heavy load
22:15:02 <Alberth> but BB spreads it all evenlay over the map :p
22:15:44 <Alberth> although you can re-use some parts sometimes
22:16:52 <Alberth> I tried a maglev game for a change, and it's different; distance is irrelevant
22:17:13 <Alberth> but they move too fast to get any load on the network :p
22:17:37 <andythenorth> some kind of network bee?
22:17:43 <andythenorth> confined space bee?
22:18:08 <Alberth> yeah, I have been pondering to steer BB towards re-use (or not) of existing networks
22:18:31 <Alberth> ie do a quick check how much track there is between source and destination
22:19:39 <Alberth> it could probably also check for hills that way
22:20:06 <andythenorth> force contiguous networks?
22:20:26 <andythenorth> probably makes building things like junctions too hard
22:20:40 <andythenorth> all track must be connected
22:21:01 <Alberth> oh, I drag a long piece of otherwise unused tracks all over the map?
22:21:02 <andythenorth> all nodes in same graph, in graph terms
22:21:19 <andythenorth> would require some substantial patch
22:21:42 <andythenorth> Eddi reminded me that Railroad Tycoon worked that way
22:22:41 <Alberth> I have been thinking about a way to allow expressing positions in a somewhat simple way, and hook that up to eg payment, or construction
22:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably work to have new goals generated near existing infrastructure
22:23:42 <Alberth> likely there are other nice tricks you can do with positions
22:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> pushing the borders slightly outwards over time
22:23:56 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that was my estimate too
22:24:28 <Alberth> I had the idea to put down transmitters say every 5 tiles as a border
22:24:48 <Alberth> it's not really a border, but it would do for the first experiment
22:25:06 <Alberth> however, I could not find a call to create or destroy a non-movable
22:25:37 <Alberth> so it might not be possible currently
22:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> transmitters are technically "objects"
22:26:10 <Alberth> yeah, but objects can't be build either, I think
22:26:28 <Alberth> or at least I failed to find how
22:27:03 <Alberth> what could work is add tracks of another company
22:27:51 <andythenorth> can bridge over those
22:28:05 <andythenorth> we need cliffs :P
22:28:10 <Alberth> oh, it's not about stopping you
22:28:23 <Alberth> it's just letting you know where the border is :p
22:28:45 <Alberth> ie you can fly over transmitters too
22:28:52 * andythenorth wonders if there are bits free
22:29:13 <andythenorth> for an allowed to build / not allowed to build flag per company
22:29:22 <andythenorth> probably quite complex
22:29:28 <Alberth> "buildable" bit for all companies? no
22:29:42 <andythenorth> maybe just limiting stations would work
22:29:48 <Alberth> but you don't really want to specify that per tile
22:30:04 <Alberth> as it's always big areas
22:30:13 <andythenorth> I would sooner divide the map into regions, and have a cb on building a station or so
22:30:21 <Alberth> not paying you for transport would work :p
22:30:38 <andythenorth> make cdist refuse to route cargo :P
22:31:47 <Alberth> I had that problem in the BB game too, but it was due to a town stopping accepting goods, when I was at 96% :p
22:31:47 <sim-al2> The support topics would be interesting
22:34:08 <Alberth> likely the game will be able to tell you where you're supposed to build or connect to :p
22:37:24 <Alberth> "police confiscated your revenue on the transport between X and Y, as it was not approved by the central world council"
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22:38:14 <Alberth> or a news message "you got fined by X amount for illegal transport from A to B"
22:39:16 <Alberth> hmm, that would be feasible, even
22:45:19 <Alberth> you don't know how much you received for the transport, but just make it high enough :p
22:45:49 <Alberth> hmm, could that info get added to the cargo monitor?
22:46:33 <Alberth> theoretically, it should be possible
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