IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-08
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12:31:45 <Milek7_> in squirrel assigning variable copies object or creates reference to it?
12:32:46 <Alberth> objects? always a reference
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15:12:45 <Samu> 5 of 6 ai tests completed, waiting for AIAI aircraft to reach 2051
15:13:14 <Samu> AIAI v97 performed worse than v95 with road vehicles and trains
15:37:50 <Milek7_> it is possible in newgrf to read and perform math on vehicle properties set by other newgrf?
15:38:11 <Milek7_> for example shift every vehicle introduction date by 10 years
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15:45:47 <Samu> Kogut crash reports are so short
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16:00:18 <Samu> nice, new RoadAI version on banana server
16:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can only check for presence of another newgrf, not what's in it
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17:54:18 <Samu> there's even a song named Belly of the Beat
18:05:01 <Samu> there's a labyrinth garden, a door, a library, ruins, a mountain... call me crazy, but too much coincidence
18:05:31 <Samu> oh yeah.. statues, statues everywhere
18:06:10 <Samu> meh, nobody here cares :(
18:23:33 <Samu> if AIAI aircraft doesn't crash, then he's gonna beat AdmiralAI
18:23:55 <Samu> still 25 years away from goal and already ahead in company value
19:06:09 <Wolf01> Pc is back from hospital, with a provisional motherboard, courtesy of the shop
19:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't it better be "wolfio"?
19:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could do "WolfOI" :p
19:11:46 <Wolf01> Mmmmh, how do I update a git project from VS?
19:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> VS knows about versioning now?
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19:12:20 <Wolf01> In team explorer... fetch or pull?
19:12:53 <Wolf01> And does that so automagically I never noticed it until it asked for the password
19:15:54 <Wolf01> I think I don't even installed it
19:16:41 <Wolf01> I just opened a project from a git checkout and VS added it on the team explorer
19:18:12 <Alberth> git fetch just gets stuff from remote, pull also tries to merge it
19:18:46 <Alberth> always so useful to have hg od it just the other way around :p
19:20:44 <Samu> what happened to your pc
19:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> 's basically why i never got warm with git, it uses all the wrong names for things
19:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause> hg provides a much more natural/intuitive transition from svn, naming-convention-wise
19:31:45 <Wolf01> How do I set min_active_clients for a savegame in multiplayer?
19:32:10 <frosch123> pretty sure that's no savegame setting
19:32:16 <frosch123> so, set it on the server
19:32:30 <Wolf01> It doesn't give a fuck if I set it from console/openttd.cfg, when I load the save it starts
19:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> when you try to learn git with svn background, you get a "why would they call it X when it does Y" feeling with every. single. command.
19:34:05 <Wolf01> Uhm, it can be that I'm hosting from client?
19:34:18 <Wolf01> And that only works with dedicated
19:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's only for dedicated
19:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (and even if it's not, the non-dedicated server counts as a client)
19:35:39 <frosch123> what if you join spectators?
19:36:11 <Wolf01> I set 0 spectators, I need to rehost, but I'm doing it with dedicated now
19:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> combine that "wtf" with every command with a community that when you ask "how do i do X" they don't tell you "do Y" but "you need to learn the basics"
19:37:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and your enthusiasm to learn git once and for all drops to 0
19:39:03 <Milek7_> i can't imagine how some projects are still using svn
19:39:56 <Alberth> it's an order of magnitude simpler than any distributed VCS
19:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure still the majority of projects don't use versioning at all
19:40:11 <frosch123> if not two magnitudes
19:40:53 <Alberth> distributed VCS is about the biggest gun you can find to solve the versioning problem
19:40:57 <frosch123> anything that requires merging first requires to learn about whitespace
19:44:01 <Alberth> and big guns come with big problems to handle
20:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you're american, you might come with a mindset that ignores problems with guns :p
20:11:26 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you mean "the gun is not the problem, but the solution"
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20:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: more like "if guns don't solve your problem, you're not using enough of them"
20:22:58 <Alberth> git does come with a model of how you should work, if you try to use it without the model it breaks badly
20:23:36 <Alberth> and it has a horrible user interface, although if you just stick to the simple elementary subset, it doesn't bother you much
20:23:49 <Alberth> except some stuff is a bit longwinded to do
20:25:01 <Milek7_> can command line tool can have user interface? :p
20:27:17 <Alberth> the command line is the user interface
20:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there can be bad and good command line interfaces
20:28:14 <Alberth> it's fully correct in the technical sense, but total crap from a HCI
20:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, which makes it completely inaccessible from a non-technical approach
20:31:10 <Alberth> if you ignore the over-engineered bits, it's not so bad, the sequence of commands are just a bit longer :p
20:31:29 <Alberth> but it's not svn-like or hg-like at all
20:32:30 <Alberth> I am suspecting they deliberately picked different names for everything to avoid people trying to use git as a svn/hg system
20:32:57 <Alberth> which is not so bad, the system is really different
20:34:47 <Alberth> the big difference is that you can also have remote repos locally
20:35:03 <Alberth> they just have different labels
20:36:53 <Alberth> s/can// even, you have that as soon as you want to do anything with a remote repo
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20:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a new project i'll never do: program a tool called "tig" that operates on the git data structures with a sane comman naming
20:51:46 <Wolf01> <Milek7_> can command line tool can have user interface? :p <- I made a web interface for SVN
20:53:23 <Wolf01> It was used to create the repositories and update the working copies on the staging server
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20:54:18 <Milek7_> Eddi|zuHause: what's wrong with git command names?
20:55:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7_: what's wrong with callind a table a chair, a boot a table, and a cell phone a modem?
20:56:02 <Alberth> there are a couple of git-rename command projects :)
20:56:49 <Wolf01> In git you make a checkout with clone, and a... I don't even know what with checkout
20:56:49 <Alberth> but obviously they all break on the different model that git uses
20:57:21 <Milek7_> or switch to specific commit
20:57:27 <Alberth> what you expect to do with git branch, but you can't
20:57:38 <glx> easier to just use github application ;)
20:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> what i always meant to ask: is there an official way to pronounce the "g" in "git"?
20:58:33 <Alberth> yeah, it's so bad people actually layer a tool on top of it to avoid using the command line
20:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> or is that like "gif" where there are two groups that are of opposite opinion and totally despise each other?
20:59:09 <Alberth> no doubt linus has an asnwer to that
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20:59:44 <Wolf01> SVN uses checkout, update and switch (to branch/tag), the commands seem pretty explainatory to me, with git, I fail to do a checkout 2 times every 3
20:59:59 <Alberth> I find it a non-issue, as whatever you pronounce it, you still type "g"
21:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> what i find weird is that my internal pronunciation of "git" and "gif" are not the same
21:01:00 <Alberth> Wolf01: don't try to push a svn or hg model onto git, it doesn't work
21:01:03 <Wolf01> I'm the only one which can read it different based on why writes it? (yes, I'm weird)
21:01:13 <Alberth> git has its own logic, separate from everything else
21:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> by "internal" i mean the "sound" i make in my head while typing
21:01:41 <Alberth> well, perhaps the same as "apt-get" which I also constantly fail to understand
21:02:41 <Milek7_> apt is the worst packaging system that exists
21:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7_: how is that statement different from "git is the worst versioning system that exists"?
21:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> or "C++ is the worst programming language that exists"?
21:03:59 <glx> I'm with Wolf01 on NuGet :)
21:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i don't think i ever used apt-get, and i have never heard of NuGet, which is probably understandable given the first fact
21:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: well, sure, but that's not stopping people making a statement like this :p
21:06:33 <Alberth> Milek7_: I think it's technically fully correct, the UI is just total crap
21:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: which is exactly what you said about git earlier :p
21:07:42 <Alberth> but some techies don't care about anybody but themselves
21:08:00 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I see a lot of parallels between both systems :)
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21:08:42 <Alberth> underlying technology is leading in the UI
21:08:53 <Alberth> instead of designing it from the top down
21:09:18 <Milek7_> i always have problems with dependecies with apt
21:09:39 <Wolf01> I see a lot of parallels between everything, as everyone has his own preferred softwares and operational methods
21:09:52 <Wolf01> For example I love Windows 10
21:09:55 <Alberth> everything is connected! :)
21:10:03 <Milek7_> something like "Depends: X but it is not going to be installed"
21:10:47 <glx> Wolf01: I have a nice UI translation fail for french in windows 10
21:10:59 <Wolf01> I usually force the install of dependencies, I don't even consider apt doing what it wants
21:13:03 <Milek7_> windows 10 have good error messages
21:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> can't beat earlier windows versions reporting "Error: No Error"
21:14:00 <glx> "update history" is translated in 2 different ways on the same page, and 1 is totally wrong
21:14:48 <Wolf01> Use the feedback tool and report it? :D
21:16:41 <glx> oh they failed at "update settings" too it seems
21:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> how many days until i can stop caring about an election in a far away country that i have no influence on?
21:21:21 <Samu> when america becomes poor
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21:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> some times i wish i could put stop-word filters on news sites
21:23:49 <glx> ho the translation error is already reported it seems
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21:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> is that unusual?
21:28:17 <Wolf01> No, it's common that cats get scared for nothing
21:33:38 <Milek7_> i showed you tetris over ipv6 traceroute?
21:42:20 <Samu> speaking of translations, what's happening to the portuguese translation of openttd?
21:42:33 <Samu> so many typos and missing strings lately
21:42:54 <glx> feel free to apply as a translator :)
21:43:39 <Samu> ahm... well i could try fix the most blatant errors
21:45:03 <Samu> i had an account there, let's see if i remember
21:47:12 <Samu> nice, got to run openttd in portuguese again for a while
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22:01:24 <Supercheese> already have sea zeps, for servicing those oil rigs
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22:07:28 <Wolf01> Mmmh, dedcated server stuck at "starting game"
22:10:15 <Samu> some gs's take time to launch :(
22:10:35 <andythenorth> zellepin of the sea
22:22:52 <Wolf01> Firewall says OTTD is using port 2780 to advertise on master server, shouldn't it be 3978?
22:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> needs more context
22:23:35 <Wolf01> Can't advertise on master server
22:23:48 <DorpsGek> Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
22:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you can usually ignore outgoing ports
22:24:25 <glx> master server listen on 3978
22:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> firewalls usually don't care about those
22:24:44 <glx> but it can be any port on your machine :)
22:25:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, for outgoing communication, source port is random
22:25:44 <Wolf01> I forwarded ports from 3977 to 3979 to the server IP (I moved it to another machine, here it worked)
22:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you forwarded both TCP and UDP?
22:26:42 <glx> master server must be able to reach your server on the port your server tells it it is listening (3979 by default)
22:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> when you say "here it worked", were you running the server on the router before?
22:28:17 <Wolf01> I have 2 pc, and I want to use the other one for dedicated server, as it's always on
22:28:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and from where to where are you redirecting the route?
22:29:01 <Wolf01> On this pc I'm on now, I used to run the UI client to host the game
22:29:24 <Wolf01> Now I changed the IP on the router's NAT to point to the other pc
22:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> for both TCP and UDP?
22:30:00 <glx> usually I just add the machine on a different port :)
22:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're sure it's not the router, it's the firewall on the server
22:30:10 <Wolf01> I think I sould do that too
22:30:33 <glx> you rebooted the router after the change ?
22:30:44 <Wolf01> The firewall on the server already allos all activity (both tcp and udp) for the entire application, doesn't matter whichc pot
22:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> rebooting should not be necessary for any sane router
22:34:01 <Wolf01> Changed back the IP to this pc, it advertises succesfully, I'm adding a new forwarding rule with different ports
22:35:08 <Wolf01> Ok, with different ports works, so I think glx is right
22:35:15 <Wolf01> I should reboot the router
22:35:39 <glx> no need if it works on a different port :)
22:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> just leave the different port in
22:36:13 <Wolf01> Yes, but now I know that if I change the IP I need to reboot the thing
22:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a bug
22:37:13 <Wolf01> This poor thing has 10 years and don't have updates since 2009
22:37:22 <Samu> Error: String command for position 0 is wrong, base language uses {STRING}, the translation uses {STRING1}
22:37:49 <Samu> Base lang string: (travel for {STRING1}, not timetabled)
22:38:12 <Samu> (viajar durante {STRING1}, sem programação)
22:38:45 <glx> IIRC translations can only use {STRING}
22:39:12 <Samu> but base lang got {STRING1}
22:39:36 <Samu> STR_TIMETABLE_AND_TRAVEL_FOR_ESTIMATED
22:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> translations must use {STRING}, strgen will fill in the {STRINGn} from the master language (english)
22:41:29 <glx> yes only use {STRING} in translation
22:50:42 <Wolf01> Oh, lol, now the server's firewall is blocking this pc because it's thinking I'm trying to attack it on a specific port
22:51:35 <Wolf01> And seem there isn't a way to tell it to let this ip pass no matter what
22:55:38 <Samu> how the heck do you translate things such as "Perlin noise"
22:56:00 <Wolf01> You don't translate names usually
22:56:14 <Wolf01> Except if you are italian
22:56:27 <glx> check how it's done on wiki ;)
22:58:02 <FLHerne> Samu: You could translate 'noise', if there's a suitable term
22:59:16 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Except if you are italian <-- well, there are some examples of books that were translated into german, and it also changed place names, like "london" into "berlin"
22:59:40 <Wolf01> That's a lot of kilometers ;)
23:00:21 <glx> hehe they used to relocate anime in france in 80's
23:00:46 <Wolf01> Usually here they change anime chars names to something more recognisable, like Giovanni or Lucia or Mario
23:00:59 <Samu> sounds so retarded, but i'll use this
23:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> usually, there are also later translations of the same book, with the original place names
23:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you're picking up old books, you sometimes need to make sure which version it is
23:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember that aldous huxley's "brave new world" was one such example
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23:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and there are also names which have actual translations, like Charles -> Karl, Henry -> Heinrich
23:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> which you come across fairly often when talking about medieval kings and stuff
23:24:33 <Samu> Base lang string: Landscape: {STRING2} -> Cenário: {STRING2} Error: String command for position 0 is wrong, base language uses {STRING}, the translation uses {STRING2}
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23:26:23 <Wolf01> Could I use the scrollto command to make a client scroll to that position?
23:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so, but maybe a gamescript can do that?
23:27:30 <Wolf01> It would be more useful a command on the client list
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23:58:33 <glx> Samu: always use {STRING}
23:59:02 <glx> all STRINGx are STRING in translations
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