IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-10-07
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00:20:41 <Samu> no one has an opinion? :(
00:27:02 <ST2> it's hard to have an opinion when most of the people is already sleeping :P
00:28:17 <ST2> been busy lauching our test server #XX
00:28:27 <ST2> and work not ended yet :S
00:35:52 <Samu> this is quite confusing during network mode
00:36:36 <Samu> there are variables that are sent into a queue, like costs
00:36:53 <Samu> others are changed immediately
00:37:34 <Samu> like month of bankruptcy
00:39:11 <Samu> i wonder how everything keeps synced, it's weird that it's sync'ed
00:40:35 <FLHerne> Everything executes identically on every client, all the time
00:40:46 <FLHerne> The only things that need to be synced are things the user does
00:42:31 <Samu> i'm trying to subtract money from a bankrupted company
00:43:12 <Samu> nevermind, it's not yet bankrupted
00:43:30 <Samu> it will be next month, i wonder if it will do that
00:44:44 <Wolf01> I think a company should not bankrupt if the profit is positive but bank balance is negative for 3 months
00:46:11 <FLHerne> Wolf01: That would allow you to invest almost infinitely in infrastructure
00:46:55 <Samu> okay, the bankrupt command was sent into a queue
00:46:59 <FLHerne> Wolf01: You could cover the entire map in the first day, provided it was profitable by the three-month limit
00:47:14 <Wolf01> But if you become very large you have really high infrastructure cost
00:47:36 <Samu> and now... i'm subtracting money from a company that is queued as bankrupted
00:47:44 <FLHerne> Sure, but it makes money completely meaningless
00:48:01 <Wolf01> And you can't profit with just few vehicles with a large infrastructure
00:48:03 <Samu> it really is doing this.. it's so weird
00:48:26 <FLHerne> I should sleep before arguing, missing the very obvious
00:50:06 <Wolf01> But if you have a little company and few vehicles, and you make a mistake like purchasing an expensive train which makes your bank balance go to red, and you sell that train to start earning money again
00:53:10 <Wolf01> With just some vehicles and low profits you will take ages to go green again, but this doesn't mean you are in bankrupt, you might be charged with more interests but if you still make more money, even 1000$ you are doing good
00:56:47 <Samu> alright, with my patch, company bankrupted in december, now let's try with original code
00:59:36 <Samu> months of bankruptcy kicked in february
01:00:12 <Samu> i expect bankrupt in november with original code, let's see if that happens
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01:08:46 <Samu> a 31 days month takes 71,668 ms seconds to pass
01:09:56 <Samu> 30 day month takes 69s 343ms
01:10:27 <ST2> and what causes that "delay"?
01:11:20 <Samu> i check bankruptcy before applying infrastructure costs... apparently it gains 1 more month, this is not what I intended, will try to fix it
01:11:57 <Samu> alright, i think i know how to fix this
01:12:04 <Samu> instead of counting to 10, i count to 9
01:12:13 <Samu> but will need a savegame conversion :(
01:14:11 <Samu> original code starts the counter in february
01:14:18 <Samu> my patch starts the counter in march
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02:46:08 <Samu> @calc 3 * 30 * 74 / (15 - 1)
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13:08:51 <Wolf01> I'm going mad trying to building a working Walschaerts valve... with lego
13:51:29 <argoneus> good morning train friends
14:27:46 <Samu_> c->months_of_bankruptcy--;
14:28:00 <Samu_> c->months_of_bankruptcy = c->months_of_bankruptcy - 1;
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14:31:51 <Samu_> i think i'm not doing an afterload conversion
14:33:06 <Samu_> something tells me it's not needed
14:37:33 <Samu_> loading an old save of a company with bankrupt data doesn't know how it was triggered
14:39:11 <Samu_> but i still got a problem
14:39:37 <Samu_> i'm only counting to 9 now, not 10
14:40:16 <Samu_> if the save got c->months_of_bankruptcy == 8, next month it will bankrupt
14:40:45 <Samu_> while with the original code, it would only bankrupt in 2 months
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14:42:33 <Samu_> I wonder... do I really want to reduce the count to 9
14:46:46 <Samu_> even if I count to 10, sometimes I gain a month, sometimes I don't, in comparison to the original code
14:47:20 <Samu_> okay, I think I got a tough decision
14:47:30 <Samu_> will keep the count to 10
14:50:20 <Samu_> no save conversion needed that way
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15:29:00 <Samu_> ST2: hi. I decided against the delay we talked about yesterday
15:30:19 <Samu_> ST2: but i still wonder what would be the impact of this change in a real game with human companies competing
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16:50:17 <Samu_> who's an accountant here?
17:19:22 <goodger> Samu: I did an A-level in accounting and it seemed to help when I was doing my company's accounts, if that helps
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17:25:05 <Samu> question is about what happens first in the real world
17:25:50 <Milek7_> trying to use real world concepts in openttd is bad idea
17:26:02 <Samu> gah, i need to look at yesterday's log, I asked it yesterday
17:27:57 <Samu> the question is when to include inflation when doing calculations at the start of a month
17:28:10 <Wolf01> Samu, don't make OTTD too much realistic, there's already andy for that
17:28:29 <Alberth> :O andy is realistic?
17:29:01 <Samu> currently openttd is subtracting money from infrastructure costs before applying inflation
17:29:38 <Samu> then inflation takes place, and only then loan interest and "other" category are subtracted from the company's money
17:29:58 <Samu> I think inflation is in a strange place
17:30:08 <Samu> should be either the first or the last
17:30:37 <Samu> infrastructure costs evades inflation adjustments
17:31:50 <Milek7_> i always play without inflation
17:34:08 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: is that the lethal transrapid, or one of the others (if applicable)?
17:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the others, i suppose
17:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the damaged one they probably scrapped already
17:39:14 <Wolf01> I think I should leave apart lego and start assembling a real steam engine, it's too much work to make it with plastic which is not so reliable in terms of rigidity
17:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> real steam engine requires lots of paperwork, i'm afraid
17:40:05 <Alberth> depending on size and pressure :)
17:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> assuming it should be operational, and able to use actual rail tracks :p
17:41:41 <Alberth> it may be easier to join a group where they try to keep old steam engines running
17:41:49 <Samu> Alberth: about yesterday discussion, i also figured it still makes more sense to have bankruptcy check before applying infrastructure costs
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17:42:35 <Samu> because loan interst and "other" subtractions are already being done after bankruptcy checks
17:42:44 <Samu> only infrastructure costs are not
17:42:58 <Alberth> and infrastructure costs are not costs?
17:43:09 <Alberth> ie you don't have to pay those?
17:43:45 <Samu> it is like this: infra costs > check bankruptcy > pay interest + other
17:43:51 <Alberth> but doing an additional check before is fine, my argumentation is mostly against removing the existing check
17:43:54 <Samu> check bankruptcy is in a bad place
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17:44:13 <Wolf01> Eddi, just 0/S/H0 scale
17:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds fiddly
17:44:34 <Alberth> Samu: doing it later is fine too
17:45:30 <Alberth> but yesterday you moved it to an earlier place rather than a later place
17:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> for the record: i strongly agree about moving the check
17:46:47 <Eddi|zuHause> to before the infrastructure is paid
17:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> also, all the other daily/monthly costs
17:47:12 <Samu> what about inflation adjustments? when do they happen?
17:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're positive at the end of the quarter, you should be fine
17:49:25 <Samu> original code order: infra costs > check bankruptcy > inflation + price adjustments > pay interest + other
17:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: but even that size steam engine should require some paperwork, so it doesn't blow up in your face
17:51:14 <Samu> my proposition order 1: check bankruptcy > infra costs > pay interest + other > inflation + price adjustments
17:51:33 <Samu> my proposition order 2: check bankruptcy > inflation + price adjustments > infra costs > pay interest + other
17:52:50 <Alberth> Eddi: that seems like a fair price to keep Wolf in one piece
17:55:27 <Samu> what would be an accountant's saying on this :o
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19:04:07 <Samu> what do i do about inflation? nobody answered t.t
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19:10:27 <Samu> i'm gonna put inflation at the end
19:11:48 <Wolf01> Do it, if somebody else likes it he could compile with your patch
19:12:21 * andythenorth uses irc as the teddy bear
19:12:36 <andythenorth> the actual answers don’t matter, just forming the question
19:12:52 <andythenorth> Iron Horse south america
19:13:03 <andythenorth> which was started but not finished :P
19:13:16 <andythenorth> maybe I should drop the country idea, and match the rosters to climates
19:14:14 <Wolf01> NRT! (I can't do it because no pc :( it's still hospitalized)
19:26:48 <Samu> EXPENSES_LOAN_INT, EXPENSES_OTHER, EXPENSES_PROPERTY are not affected by inflation
19:26:59 <Samu> i should have known this...
19:31:06 <Samu> i feel like a total idiot now :(
19:34:49 <Samu> teddy bear programming that's because sometimes no one says a thing
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20:08:43 <Alberth> usually it's because you don't actually expect feedback, it's just talking to yourself to figure something out
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20:36:22 <goodger> Samu: not one of those is a reasonable simulation of real-world financial dealings, so the question is kind of meaningless
20:37:33 <Samu> doesn't matter now goodger, sorry
20:38:16 <Samu> I was wrong all this time
20:55:22 <V453000> Omg andythenorth pondering
20:55:53 <V453000> Optimizing compile times by 0.3s in progress? :P
20:56:44 * andythenorth was pondering watching trainz videos on youtube
20:56:51 <andythenorth> youtube irritates me
20:56:54 <andythenorth> that’s standard, right?
20:57:38 <V453000> XD depends on your personified google search tm
20:58:10 <V453000> Youtube doesnt even dare suggest busslshit to me anymore
20:58:50 <andythenorth> I try to never be logged into YT
20:58:53 <andythenorth> hard…because google
20:59:26 <andythenorth> it recommends me endless ‘epic fail’ videos, because I like watching ‘epic win’ videos
20:59:34 <andythenorth> but I fucking hate epic fail stuff, it’s not funny
20:59:47 <Samu> they saved poe hc, good job ggg
21:00:00 <andythenorth> also it recommends me fuckloads of boat, car and truck crash videos
21:00:03 <andythenorth> where people actually die
21:00:08 <andythenorth> really not wanted
21:27:18 <Wolf01> Andy, seen the latest lego ideas set?
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21:31:12 <andythenorth> fishing house thing?
21:31:51 <andythenorth> I am just on Eurobricks
21:32:05 <andythenorth> looks nice, but I have enough Lego :)
21:32:12 <Wolf01> I would have liked Johnny5
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22:41:20 <Samu> hmm, there's either a bug with the forum or my browser ....
22:42:45 <Samu> when i select text inside [code] [/code] and then right click, I get a tt-forums.net is not responding error and crashes the tab
22:45:50 <Samu> the config he posted, can't copy it out
22:47:45 <Wolf01> Absolutely no problem with Edge
22:49:34 <Wolf01> Do you have extensions installed?
22:49:55 <Wolf01> Like pocket or whatever
22:50:02 <Samu> strange, only seems to crash when i select some text, but not other
22:50:24 <Samu> i guess some extension is crashing me the browser
22:51:05 <Samu> select his ip address in connect to ip, that's where i first tried to copy
22:55:01 <Samu> how do I disable the phone number thing from the browser? I don't have a phone, this is a PC
22:55:55 <Samu> i don't have skype, I think, let me check
22:56:11 <Wolf01> Browsers don't have the phone numbers thing by themselves
22:56:50 <Wolf01> It's usually a Skype extension
23:06:10 <Samu> i got the skype preview, just uninstalled it, was that it?
23:06:53 <Wolf01> I think not, I have it too
23:07:40 <Wolf01> Try in the add/remove programs
23:08:28 <Wolf01> Look for anything which contains click to call
23:15:38 <Samu> so much stuff that windows shares that I don't even use
23:15:52 <Samu> windows apps, I only use 1
23:16:25 <Samu> i have no idea what they mean with sharing my email with other apps, meh... i guess i shouldn't bother
23:18:43 <Samu> microsoft edge is an app? ... lel
23:19:36 <Wolf01> You still have Internet Explorer buried somewhere if you need it
23:21:37 <Samu> i had more trouble with windows 7
23:21:48 <Samu> while everyone liked windows 7
23:21:53 <ST2> Samu: don't say that close to a bunch of Linux users ^^
23:22:37 <Milek7_> one day it suddenly stopped recognizing any usb devices, even keyboard
23:23:22 <Milek7_> and even on virtual machine it was so slow and unstable that i installed windows 7 back
23:23:37 <Wolf01> Strange problems can always happen also with other OSes
23:23:46 <Samu> windows 7 virtual machine sucked on my amd
23:24:04 <Wolf01> Lol, Windows 10 slow...
23:24:13 <Samu> didn't try a virtual machine on windows 10 yet
23:25:45 <Samu> i had to install some obscure amd provided patch to have virtual machine to actually boot
23:25:55 <Samu> but then it was kinda sluggish
23:26:39 <Samu> and i couldn't use too much virtual memory
23:26:53 <Samu> think i could only use 512 mb
23:27:42 <Samu> windows 7 was not prepared for bulldozer :(
23:27:47 <Milek7_> 1gb is even too little for win xp
23:31:06 <Samu> there was some thread affinity issues with some blizzard games, like starcraft 2
23:31:42 <Samu> after insisting with blizzard so much, they finally had a look at it
23:32:16 <Samu> by the time they fixed it, I was already on windows 10, so... meh
23:33:39 <Samu> windows was core parking some bulldozer cores that sc2 was trying to use, resulting in horrid performance drops
23:35:26 <Samu> they answered something like they done it like that for compatibility issues with older hyper-threaded core i7's
23:37:47 <Milek7_> sad that many games uses directx
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