IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-08-25
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00:18:14 <Samu> something inside me tells me that the Zen cpus will be slightly below Broadwell level of performance
00:19:26 <Samu> will be between Haswell and Broadwell
00:19:52 <Samu> core ix-4xxx series and core ix-5xxx series
00:20:27 <Samu> intel is launching core ix-7xxx series when zen come out... :( zen will disappoint
00:24:21 <Samu> i even doubt a 4 core zen will match a 8 core bulldozer in some of the benchmarks
00:25:28 <Samu> especially integer multi-threaded based
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01:46:27 <Samu> looks like trees actually affect AI perfomance
01:47:09 <goodger> is that just if the ents patch is enabled?
01:47:49 <Samu> affects some ais pathfinder cost predictions
01:49:32 <Samu> epictrans bankrupted again, I'm gonna try him on a map without trees
01:49:53 <Samu> if any tree is placed, that's the ai placing them
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02:37:20 <Samu> epictrans still bankrupts... :(
02:39:02 <Samu> i'm gonna give up on him
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03:38:07 <sim-al2> RIP FLHerne's internet
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04:56:18 <Lejving> Hey. I'm super new to openttd, two questions! Is zbase the "best" hd graphic mod, or at least the standard one? How can I enable more technology from the start (like electric trains), is it just to enter later start date?
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04:59:35 <supermop_> id say ogfx is more of a standard
05:00:19 <supermop_> if you want different from default trains - including earlier electric trains, there are other train newgrfs
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05:00:41 <supermop_> realistic and non-realistic
05:01:28 <Lejving> manpower ogfx-industries?
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05:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> no, "ogfx" is shorthand for "OpenGFX", which is the first free base set that was develped. it is not high-res though
05:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> manpower industries is a grf that tries to make the game more challenging by requiring workers and stuff to produce goods
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08:38:02 <ccfreak2k> Ethereal_Whisper I did something vaguely similar in a multiplayer game.
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08:38:22 <ccfreak2k> I was building a train that circled the island for no reason other than I could do it.
08:38:35 <ccfreak2k> A few other players were frantically trying to clear and build in front of me.
08:38:40 <ccfreak2k> It ended in the total destruction of a small town.
08:38:58 <ccfreak2k> Well, it didn't end. I built that railroad.
08:39:05 <ccfreak2k> But it was the end for that town.
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11:22:13 <Alkel_U3> and andy thought he has unstable connection :-)
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12:20:33 <Samu> question about AI libraries
12:20:43 <Samu> what are they used for ?
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12:21:07 <Wolf01> Standard base of functions to share between AIs?
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12:24:05 <Samu> is there a library that deals with loan/money management?
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12:24:30 <Wolf01> Maybe, if not try to write one ;)
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12:28:12 <Samu> gosh... SynTrans bankrupted, money management
12:28:23 <Samu> tons of profit and still bankrupts
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12:35:39 <Samu> money management is the achilles' heel of some otherwise good ais
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12:37:04 <Samu> there are ais that are blatantly bad at turning a profit, i'm not refering to these, but to those that have huge profits and yet manage to bankrupt
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12:43:39 <Samu> FLHerne: having trouble staying connected?
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12:48:11 <Samu> local townid_a = townpoplist.Begin(); //suche die größte Stadt
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13:11:25 <Samu> oops, when trying to fix money issues for epictrans,
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13:11:38 <Samu> I made him wait indefinitely for money, i think i failed somewhere
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13:14:38 <Samu> while (AICompany.GetBankBalance(AICompany.COMPANY_SELF+10000) < AIRoad.GetBuildCost(AIRoad.ROADTYPE_ROAD, AIRoad.BT_ROAD))
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13:15:27 <Samu> or am I trying to get the bank balance of company 10001?
13:16:10 <Samu> i just imagined openttd with 10k companies
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13:50:02 <Samu> what is wrong with FLHerne_ ?
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14:25:58 <Samu> i'm looking at openttd code *FindClosestShipDepot(const Vehicle *v, uint max_distance)
14:26:11 <Samu> it looks for the manhattan distance
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14:26:28 <Samu> what is the depot is on a lake that the ship can't access?
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14:29:31 <Samu> it should look for the closest ship depot that the ship has access to
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14:44:33 <Samu> if (dist >= 130) { return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_TOO_FAR_FROM_PREVIOUS_DESTINATION);
14:44:55 <Samu> how did you came up with 130? :(
14:45:21 <SpComb> someone forgot to do it properly and write `const int MAGIC_NUMBER_130 = 130;`
14:50:45 <Samu> if (v->type == VEH_SHIP && _settings_game.pf.pathfinder_for_ships == VPF_OPF) {
14:51:30 <Snail> if it’s Matlab it should be ==
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15:09:22 <Samu> the function at line 133 of ship_cmd.cpp needs rework, it's really bad the way it is
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15:11:04 <Samu> just tested something, i placed a ship depot on a lake, innaccessible by the ship not on this lake, and another ship depot a bit further away, accessible by the ship
15:11:25 <Samu> i told the ship to go to depot, and it picks the ship depot on the lake
15:12:01 <Samu> it should run the pathfinder to look for the closest depot
15:12:33 <Samu> how can i fix this? I'd like to change that function to be more "intelligent"
15:33:20 <Samu> :|, what am i supposed to do? this seems so simple, but it is so hard
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15:46:53 <Samu> how do I understand the limits of the pathfinder?
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15:59:58 <Samu> uhm... nevermind, YAPF is doing great after all
16:00:19 <Samu> it's just that strange limitation of 130 tiles that's confusing me, why did you decide to put it in?
16:01:06 <Samu> it's even running faster
16:02:00 <Samu> must test this further, brb
16:14:34 <Samu> noob question, is there a hotkey for cloning vehicles?
16:14:54 <Samu> i dont feel like clicking 5000 times
16:15:48 <V453000> just clone the vehicle in the vehicle window?
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16:16:21 <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
16:17:21 <andythenorth_> V453000 brix trainz?
16:17:39 <V453000> shittin brix has slowed down a little bit lately
16:17:49 <argoneus> >notice factorio is hiring python developers
16:17:52 <argoneus> >get hyped and open it
16:17:53 <V453000> a bit of identity crisis, wasn't sure what amount of detail I wantz
16:18:14 <V453000> got quite a final model naow though, will try to render tonight
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16:23:18 <andythenorth_> Are those rivets?
16:24:27 <argoneus> Samu: absolute madman
16:27:21 <andythenorth_> looks like Micro Machines \o/
16:27:30 <V453000> might paint some extra texture on it
16:27:35 <V453000> even though I have a rule of no textures for brix XD
16:27:54 <andythenorth_> I would leave it flat colour
16:28:06 <andythenorth_> Reduce prominence of screws
16:28:18 <V453000> yeah sure, just an extra multiply-like texture in spots
16:28:36 <V453000> they kind of hit the eyes hard
16:29:13 <andythenorth_> Add grilles or ports in same colour as body if you want to break up the flat
16:29:36 <V453000> I do want to keep some flat
16:29:47 <V453000> preserves the general shape instead of making it a mess of details imo
16:33:27 <V453000> also, this is a model-scene lighting setup, the final will probably be better lit
16:33:39 <V453000> I model in blender and then export to max with vray
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16:34:44 <Samu> yes, I did it! 5000 ships
16:40:06 <Samu> holy crap what a giant stall
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16:46:25 <Samu> ugly stalls, i wonder how the pathfinders do their work
16:46:47 <Samu> i'm testing 5000 ships crossing a 1024x1024 map horizontally
16:47:23 <andythenorth> RL ships are very inconvenient for ottd
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16:47:49 <andythenorth> Basically standard small cargo ship carries most cargos, including containers
16:47:55 <V453000> andythenorth: -insert comment-
16:48:21 <Samu> hi alberth, are you an expert on pathfinders? I'm trying to *ahem*... do something about the slowdowns
16:48:27 <andythenorth> V reality needs rearranging
16:49:13 <V453000> note the differences on the gray material of the coupling
16:49:54 <V453000> and the rivets are too hidden now :D
16:50:19 <Alberth> Samu: I did look into path finder theory, and not much in the OpenTTD implementation
16:50:24 <Samu> i've set up a map with 5000 ships, a worst case scenario, and see which pathfinder slows down the least, goiing from a corner to another
16:50:28 <V453000> supermop_: the lighting is super provisional
16:50:46 <Alberth> bit oversized coupling?
16:51:11 <supermop_> the side panels seem like the panels from the erector set i had in the early 90s
16:51:36 <Alberth> Samu: that's not even close to worst case
16:52:13 <Samu> could be 4096x4096, i know
16:52:49 <Alberth> Path-finders usually try to extend in a straight line to the destination, so the real problems arise when there are obstacles in the way
16:52:54 <V453000> coupling is big because exaggerated shapes, me like
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16:53:15 <V453000> & shit like filling gaps between units etc asdf
16:53:25 <Samu> at first, i think there could be some sort of pathfind queuing
16:53:50 <Samu> before computing it for a path or whatever th heck it does, queue that request
16:54:20 <Samu> so, essentially, if the queue is full, let them vehicles be lost for a while
16:54:57 <supermop_> i think the buffers throw me off
16:55:14 <Alberth> V: ah ok, filling space :) otherwise couplings are pretty much non-essential to show
16:55:38 <V453000> wheel aren't really visible so a coupling is the defining part of a train
16:56:17 <V453000> for example diesel trains don't have top pantograph
16:56:21 <V453000> so they could get close to RV
16:56:33 <V453000> since they won't have this shit, it's clear
16:56:36 <supermop_> radiator fan on top?
16:56:42 <Alberth> who said trains could not drive on road? :p
16:56:44 <V453000> well yeah more or less
16:57:39 <V453000> hm maybe I could render vehicles from max
16:57:51 <V453000> but the amount of mess that is ._.
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17:03:16 <Samu> darn, 5000 ships is too much
17:10:20 <Samu> even with only 50 ships the stalls are noticeable :(
17:16:01 <Samu> seems the original pathfinder has the potential to be the least cpu intensive
17:16:19 <Samu> i wish i could adjust some of its limitations
17:18:45 <andythenorth> To make it more accurate? o_O
17:19:41 <Samu> he seems to throw things towards a direction and then hope for the best, until in finds something wrong, then tries to fix it
17:20:15 <Samu> he throws ships towards a direction and then hope for the best, until it finds an obstacle
17:21:23 <Samu> original also has a "stable" cpu usage
17:21:34 <Samu> the others have a "peaky" cpu usage
17:22:28 <andythenorth> How do I make a 'bulk cargo' ship look different to general cargo ship?
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17:23:13 <andythenorth> For RVs one is dump truck, one open truck, and I can make them look different even though they are only 32px wide and 6px high :p
17:23:35 <andythenorth> Ship is much bigger, shoukd have much more eye candy possibility
17:23:46 <V453000> you give it a gigantic hopper?
17:25:29 <andythenorth> V453000 maybe :p
17:29:48 <Samu> spreading ships to avoid "peak"
17:30:48 <Samu> would mask that peak usage if the pathfinder isn't requested at the exact same time, i think
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17:31:37 <Samu> the screenshot shows 1 ship, but that's actually 50 ships stacked together
17:31:52 <andythenorth> Ships need to not have hold covers
17:32:14 <andythenorth> So cargo can be seen
17:33:03 <Samu> i dunno what to say, just randomly throwing ideas
17:40:03 <Samu> could the pathfinder, or just some parts of it, be started on a 2nd thread, avoid stalls?
17:40:18 <Samu> i still see the peak being 12.5%
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17:42:59 <Rubidium> not feasibly; path finding depends on other vehicles, so running it asynchroniously makes pathfinding undeterministic and as such breaks multiplayer
17:44:08 <Rubidium> also, pathfinding is done in the middle of the vehicle moving process, so you'd need to introduce some extra states for vehicles that are waiting to get their pathfinding results and then continue where they were
17:44:17 <Rubidium> which makes it even trickier
17:44:49 <Alberth> last but not least, moving it to another CPU does not decrease CPU usage, you just shift it
17:45:25 <Rubidium> having said that, you can make a game that does spread the load over all CPUs, but then you have to give up some of the other features of OpenTTD
17:45:35 <Samu> ships can cross each other
17:46:10 <Rubidium> they still interact at stations when (un)loading
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17:49:19 <Rubidium> the only reasonable solution for improving ship pathfinding seems to be implementing shipping "lanes", that is "road" in the water that ships should follow
17:49:47 <Rubidium> that reduces the number of choices so dramatically that pathfinding becomes cheaper and better cachable
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17:50:41 <Alberth> What about Jump-Point search?
17:51:14 <andythenorth> Pre-seed the map with hidden bouys, on 16-tile grid? Then keep a linkgraph between the nodes?
17:51:41 <andythenorth> The linkgraph will be hideously big for 16 tile grid :(
17:52:07 <andythenorth> But pathfinder would be much faster :)
17:52:50 <Alberth> you don't unload cargo at a bouy :)
17:53:31 <andythenorth> Dock - [bouys] - dock
17:54:18 <Alberth> maybe caching a path between docks is enough already
17:54:27 <Alberth> except that fails for lost ships
17:55:53 <Samu> interesting observation, the OPF ships are the first to arrive at the destination
17:56:22 <Alberth> less CPU usage, I guess
17:56:24 <Samu> in openttd game time... not really
17:57:29 <Samu> considerably less cpu time
17:58:36 <Samu> well, i lie, they didn't arrive yet, but they're the first to approach it, i hope they dont get lost
17:59:28 <Alberth> OPF takess less cpu time, but is also less powerful
17:59:50 <Alberth> ie it looses ships more often
18:00:25 <Samu> 9 jul 1955, the first ship arrived
18:00:39 <Alkel_U3> well, not only ships, should it be trusted with something else :-)
18:02:04 <Alkel_U3> I remember seeing AI's trucks spinning forever in would-seem-like-a-shortcut loop instead of taking a detour to actually take the bridge to lead to their destination
18:02:05 <Samu> 27 aug 1955, last ship arrived
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18:02:31 <Samu> i guess it will be YAPF with his stack of 50 ships
18:03:17 <Samu> i notice YAPF peaks are less intense
18:03:22 <Samu> as the ship approach destination
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18:06:36 <Samu> about 1.10% when almost there
18:06:45 <Samu> something like 10 tiles away
18:07:14 <Samu> reached destination at 16 jan 1955
18:07:32 <Samu> faster in game time, but not in cpu time
18:07:38 <Samu> user time or whatever u call it
18:07:55 <Samu> cpu time was 15 minutes, 10 seconds
18:10:02 <andythenorth> So layered sprites
18:10:13 <andythenorth> Means I can animate ship wakes
18:11:31 <Samu> closest depot could be on a lake that the ship can't access
18:11:45 <andythenorth> Why blame alberth? :p
18:12:19 <Alberth> There is an issue about that, afaik
18:12:39 <Alberth> basically, the solution is "improve the path finder to be less stupid"
18:13:15 <Samu> it's not a path finder issue, at least it's not directly his fault
18:13:29 <Samu> he is given the coordinates of a depot
18:14:27 <andythenorth> Each isolated body of water gets a linkgraph for routing? :p
18:14:50 <andythenorth> Don't try and route off the graph?
18:16:16 <Samu> given a ship position, pathfind the closest accessible ship depot nearby
18:16:34 <supermop_> make bouys work different
18:16:45 <supermop_> build a route with them
18:16:50 <Samu> what that function is doing is, given a ship position, get the coordinates of the closest ship depot nearby
18:17:17 <Samu> wrong implementation :( how do I fix
18:17:43 <supermop_> and if point between bouys gets broken/blocked try to route around? but otherwise dont pathfind for each ship journet
18:18:47 * andythenorth bets ship pathfinding is fine, until some inflection point
18:19:02 <Samu> yapf seems to be the most accurate
18:19:15 <andythenorth> My guess is, just need to reduce the area considered
18:19:35 <andythenorth> Which is what the yapf limit does
18:19:55 <Samu> original is easy on cpu usage, and apparently efficient enough provided the ships don't get lost, but... they do
18:20:01 <andythenorth> But current limit tuned to gameplay not cpu use
18:22:04 <Samu> NPF ships have arrived, 16 jan 1955
18:22:34 <Samu> 29 min, 40 sec cpu time, that's nearly the double of YAPF
18:26:12 <Samu> if (IsShipDepotTile(tile) && IsTileOwner(tile, v->owner)) && "is this ship depot reachable?"
18:26:28 <Samu> help me code that part, where do i look for?
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18:35:05 <Alberth> Such an appropriate ship name :p
18:35:28 <Alberth> translated: "variation"
18:36:18 <Alberth> RL is probably bothered by bad weather, and the show must go on
18:36:51 <andythenorth> At sea, open hatches = sinking
18:37:26 <Alberth> another RL problem :p
18:37:59 <andythenorth> Does openttd have 'sea' or 'water'?
18:38:20 * andythenorth is not near an openttd right now
18:38:22 <Alberth> afaik we do have sea and not sea
18:38:44 <Alberth> except I don't know what variations the latter contains
18:42:46 <andythenorth> As long as we don't add weather, I can use open-topped ships :p
18:48:49 <andythenorth> No mixed pax/cargo ships :p
18:53:25 <andythenorth> Too many wrong turns with FISH :p
18:53:40 <andythenorth> Too many sprites I want to reuse :p
18:54:01 <V453000> wtf are you doing now?
18:54:21 <supermop_> write something in python that automatically makes a ship grf
18:54:34 <supermop_> and chooses stats on its own with no input from you
18:55:54 <andythenorth> Stats fine, but sprites also :p
18:56:21 <V453000> and then write a script to push outputs to bananas
18:56:27 <V453000> one of them will be a good grf perhaps
18:57:29 <andythenorth> V453000 I will be needing you to render some stuff thanks
18:57:43 <andythenorth> Also mostly realism, some chibi
18:57:56 <V453000> sure after I am done with BRIX and PART
18:57:57 <andythenorth> And to correct lengths for all angles :p
18:58:16 <andythenorth> 'Correct' for original ttd way of counting
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19:05:00 <andythenorth> Diagonal lengths
19:05:22 <andythenorth> Most of FISH is wrong because it was based on iso renders
19:05:22 <V453000> ships don't care about that?
19:05:46 <V453000> it can't look wrong if it's rendered so it's physically correct
19:05:46 <andythenorth> Not chibi enough in / views
19:05:55 <V453000> trains look wrong when taking turn
19:06:16 <andythenorth> I am used to it :D
19:06:24 <andythenorth> Wrong becomes right
19:06:31 <V453000> cpu had nothing to do
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19:07:32 <Samu> gah... i dunno where to start, any hint?
19:08:08 <andythenorth> V put fork in it, that's done
19:08:12 <Samu> i want to create a list of depots that are accessible for the ship
19:08:24 <andythenorth> Except maybe...stickers? o_O
19:08:42 <Samu> once the list done, pick the closest depot from that list
19:08:49 <V453000> andythenorth: I will also make the sharp meshes with subdivision and likely slap the edge detecting material on all of it
19:08:51 <Samu> so, how am i doing this?
19:08:52 <V453000> it adds a lot of depth
19:08:59 <V453000> stickers probably not
19:09:41 <Samu> i want to avoid pathfinding for every depot out there, then again, i dont even know how to make openttd pathfind
19:09:55 <andythenorth> V something printed on sides of cabs
19:10:38 <andythenorth> Real trains have numbers, logos, data plates etc
19:10:47 <V453000> exactly, this isn't real train :D
19:11:00 <V453000> but I will consider something
19:15:54 <andythenorth> Which ones are similar capacities? :p
19:18:12 <andythenorth> If I have 10 types of cargo ship, I need ways to make them look different per type, but all equivalent sized, roughly
19:18:39 <andythenorth> (10 types, 3 capacities, 30 in total)
19:19:44 <Samu> bah, too long to save errors
19:19:46 <andythenorth> Mixing barges and ships is one way to add variety, but sizes then look quite different
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19:25:48 <Alberth> looks very nice, imho
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19:32:04 * andythenorth wonders about just two sizes of ship per type :p
19:32:14 <andythenorth> Dunno if that works though
19:34:12 <andythenorth> In my games, primary cargo routes tend to need more or larger ships than secondary
19:34:55 <andythenorth> Because of cargo processing ratios at industries, and because secondary cargos often have more destinations
19:43:50 <Alberth> maybe because FIRS doesn't give more output on secondary?
19:46:18 <Alberth> at least, with trains and default set, secondary and tertiary industries give more output
19:46:33 <andythenorth> Which is fine, but means wider range of ship sizes needed :p
19:47:20 <andythenorth> 'Small' and 'big' is quite appealing :)
19:47:45 <Alberth> just make "big" a little bigger :)
19:47:58 <Alberth> it's easy to just buy more ships
19:48:10 <Alberth> in case big is too big
19:50:48 <Samu> gonna test YAPF unlimited
19:50:58 <Samu> see if the AIs actually benefit from it
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19:58:01 <andythenorth> So what's the Goldilocks size for freight ships?
19:58:28 <andythenorth> I thought it was 360t, but it would be convenientbif it was 240t or so :p
19:59:01 <Alberth> 360t for smallest size seems a bit large indeed
19:59:15 <andythenorth> Goldilocks = most commonly used
19:59:38 <Alberth> since you don't always have lots to move, it just needs to be transported across water
20:00:33 <andythenorth> There will be some kind of small 'all freight' ship below 100t ;)
20:00:53 <Alberth> train is around 250-300 t, so 240t looks fine to me
20:01:06 <andythenorth> But the types - refrigerated, livestock, wood etc - would be 2 or 3 sizes
20:01:31 <andythenorth> 180, 360, 720 or 240, 720
20:02:07 <Alberth> the *2 concept seems a bit weird to me
20:02:17 <andythenorth> 180->360 is possibly too close
20:02:57 <andythenorth> 3 sizes means 90 ships, all looking similar-but-unique
20:03:11 <andythenorth> 2 sizes means 60 ships
20:03:30 <andythenorth> As they all have to be drawn...2 is better :p
20:03:31 <Alberth> would be a nice test, imho
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20:03:59 <Alberth> if it doesn't work, you can add one in-between, possibly with a bit rescaling
20:04:15 <andythenorth> Also it's easier to maintain graphical variety between 60 ships than 90
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20:05:12 <Alberth> you could add some really small ones and make them refittable, if you want an even smaller size
20:05:36 <andythenorth> Yes, they will just be generic cargo
20:05:40 <Alberth> but they mostly only make sense at a river or so
20:06:22 <andythenorth> Narrow gauge IH doesn't have all types of wagon that standard rail has, for example
20:10:32 <andythenorth> Better to not reuse FISH sprites directly
20:11:39 <andythenorth> I can adjust sizing, making all ships bigger relative to FISH
20:11:50 <andythenorth> These means more detail for small ships
20:12:50 <andythenorth> But because there are no really high capacity ships, the biggest sprites will still be smaller than FISH
20:12:58 <andythenorth> Reducing clipping issues
20:13:28 <Wolf01> Just finished building one Claas Xerion
20:14:57 <Wolf01> Yes, one of the best sets I purchased
20:16:00 <Wolf01> The second one will be heavily modded to be fully RC
20:16:08 <andythenorth> Something about the lime green makes me feel ill
20:16:17 <andythenorth> No matter how good the set :d
20:16:50 <andythenorth> I built a xerion ~10 years ago, but had to rebuild it yellow as JCB fastrac :D
20:19:22 <supermop_> andythenorth: a 100t all cargo ship i would use for 80% of routes
20:20:34 <andythenorth> that's goldilocks for you?
20:25:23 <Samu> ais would greatly benefit from it
20:38:05 <Alberth> unlimited distance search? not likely to happen, imho
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20:39:33 <Alberth> besides a useful tool for a deny-of-service attack, I see no poiint in sending a ship to the other side of the map at all
20:40:24 <Alberth> not to mention manhattan distance has nothing to do with real distance
20:40:51 <Samu> unlimited distance search is already in NPF
20:43:20 <Samu> I'm testing YAPF unlimited with OtviAI right now, on fast forward, hope he gets to 2051 today
20:44:09 <Samu> his script does fail on some routes, he tries to have ships access lakes
20:44:25 <Samu> there is no way a ship would get there, no matter the pathfinder
20:44:57 <Samu> on the other hand, he no longer generates ships with single orders thx to the unlimited destination
20:46:04 <Samu> there are some of the ships of his that want to reach ship depots, but... YAPF isn't "smart" enough to find a route for it
20:46:16 <Samu> NPF would do way worse by the way
20:46:44 <Samu> there are other ship depots, a bit more distant, but more easily reachable for the ship and the pathfinder
20:46:59 <Samu> but that code uses manhatan distance and that's not ideal :(
20:48:02 <Samu> fixing that part of the code and OtviAI would only be failing 99% of the time due to his own mistakes
20:48:14 <Samu> not because of the pathfinder
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21:02:17 <supermop_> V453000: procedural bricks/tiles in vray - is it possible?
21:02:52 <V453000> idk based on software probably
21:02:54 <V453000> vray just renders shit
21:03:54 <supermop_> making vray materials is hard
21:21:18 <ElleKitty> Oooo some procedural cavity action
21:21:37 <ElleKitty> No... this isnt cavity... this is inverted AO
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21:22:42 <V453000> no that is just simple ao
21:23:17 <ElleKitty> supermop_ Having access to various maps, such as the brick pattern, will probably be provided by your modelling program of choice. Your renderer is only likely to provide some technical maps, such as noises and curvatures and such
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21:25:44 <ElleKitty> Inverted AO is for fake Sub Surface Scattering
21:26:29 <supermop_> ElleKitty: what i miss is the ability to create a material that has procedural tile behavior
21:26:58 <ElleKitty> There is such one in Max
21:27:31 <supermop_> not to change the geometry, on the way my geometry gets drawn at render
21:27:53 <supermop_> flamingo can do this easily
21:27:53 <V453000> just take a tileable brick texture
21:28:15 <supermop_> V453000: not using bricks tho
21:28:46 <supermop_> so now my only option is to make a texture in PS
21:30:29 <supermop_> i don't want a texture of tiles, i want my software to divide my surface into regions and choose by some rng or procedural means to use say 'concrete A' on this tile, then 'concrete b' on that tile etc
21:30:51 <supermop_> and the chose a different texture for the grout between
21:31:01 <supermop_> so i get some randomness
21:32:40 <supermop_> even tho that seems to be for rhino materials not vray materials
21:41:46 <ElleKitty> supermop_ You can get any kind of material or map you want by scripting... But not everyone can script a new map from scratch. I, for example, dont know how to do it in Max.
21:46:41 <supermop_> i cant get procedural tiles in rhino material now
21:47:05 <supermop_> but cant figure out how to vary texture between tiles now
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22:15:46 <supermop_> ended up just asking my intern to make a big seamless image of a random combination of 4 different tiles
22:20:44 <Samu> is there a better function to check for ships on ground, and only ships
22:21:40 <Samu> for what i'm doing, if it finds a road vehicle it would make no sense
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23:05:15 <Samu> there are 12 cases in which upon placing a ship depot, a ship may be blocked, actually 24 cases, because 2 ship depots
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23:37:51 <Samu> those track pieces are where a ship cannot be found when placing the ship depot, dock or lock
23:38:02 <Samu> otherwise it may risk blocking the ship
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