IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-08-24
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00:00:15 <Samu> time to rename all my log files
00:07:38 <Samu> notepad++ is locking up left and right lately...
00:07:47 <Samu> after the last windows 10 update
00:09:06 <NGC3982> Why is the extention .log not allowed?
00:15:41 <argoneus> good evening train friends
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11:15:59 <andythenorth_> Luxury train carriages, improved payment rate, reduced capacity...
11:17:37 <Wolf01> NotRoadTypes didn't let me have a good sleep
11:18:27 <V453000> andythenorth_: it makes no sense to use less capacity for more profit, but sure :D
11:19:29 <andythenorth_> V seems like Doing It Just Because I Could
11:19:37 <andythenorth_> No eye candy benefit
11:19:46 <andythenorth_> No gameplay rationale
11:21:29 <andythenorth_> Wolf01 so...ideas? o_O
11:21:44 <V453000> that way you will end up hating it in 6 months
11:21:46 <Wolf01> Ideas on how to start patching
11:22:13 <andythenorth_> V I am hoping someone says 'no' :p
11:22:24 <Wolf01> Also, ideas on reverting half of the catenary
11:22:34 <andythenorth_> Although the idea is valid for ships I think
11:23:30 <Wolf01> Still no ideas on how to implement subtypes
11:24:21 <V453000> well yeah ships are senseless no matter what you do ;P
11:24:30 <V453000> WETRail is all i'm sayin
11:24:33 <andythenorth_> Wolf01 alberth gave me an enum that could be unpacked to fibd the subtypes, do you mean at that level, or more generally? :)
11:25:16 <andythenorth_> V WETRail is a protest vote not a solution :D
11:26:20 <V453000> well it's the best solution we have so far :P
11:27:52 <andythenorth_> Bah maybe ships need a patch
11:28:10 <andythenorth_> What would it do?
11:29:27 <V453000> for a start, colliding with each other would be necessary, which would probably make the pathfinder ultra wtf on CPU
11:29:51 <V453000> because that's one of the reasons why many of the things don't matter with them
11:30:11 <V453000> but other than that it's pretty hard to make them interesting
11:30:20 <Wolf01> Remove ships and make space for more stuff
11:30:29 <andythenorth_> Airplanes have same problem?
11:30:39 <V453000> yeah but airports have capacity limit
11:30:53 <V453000> for aircraft I always thought it is similar to ships, but there is the option of making something like modular airports
11:30:59 <V453000> maybe making modular docks would be the thing
11:31:03 <andythenorth_> I think colliding ships is wtf
11:31:13 <andythenorth_> Docks are the problem
11:31:14 <V453000> you know, unloading area, loading area, waiting area
11:31:22 <V453000> with cranes and shit, you name it
11:31:52 <argoneus> good morning train friends
11:32:09 <andythenorth_> Seas need weather
11:32:18 <Wolf01> Colliding ships adds more thinking when making routes, specially with canals
11:32:31 <V453000> I think modular docks would be right way to go
11:32:31 <andythenorth_> Small ships get sunk by storms
11:33:03 <andythenorth_> But still, does nothing to differentiate types?
11:33:19 <V453000> well it could start making a difference
11:33:21 <andythenorth_> Ha ha ShipDockTypes?
11:33:28 <V453000> if the dock setup is really complex
11:33:39 <V453000> simple to understand but hard to mASSter
11:33:41 <andythenorth_> we have roadstop types
11:34:07 <Wolf01> Cruise ships, you'll get paid on start and then you can forget it
11:34:11 <andythenorth_> pax ships have to go to pax dock
11:34:25 <andythenorth_> Cargo ships to cargo dock
11:34:54 <V453000> it probably doesn't fit into openttd
11:34:58 <andythenorth_> game is about routes yes/no?
11:35:03 <V453000> could have shit like waves shouldn't be able to get into dock etc
11:35:15 <V453000> slug invasion proof docks
11:35:18 <andythenorth_> and crime of ships is that routes have no challenge
11:35:33 <V453000> well it doesn'y have to be about routes
11:35:41 <V453000> doesn't mean everything should
11:35:49 <Wolf01> Game is about making money, but singe you can make a shitload of money with just 1 aircraft, the game is pointless, at least add complexity to the puzzle part
11:36:01 <V453000> aircraft and ships are about nothing then
11:36:04 <andythenorth_> Yeah true...but it is about routes anyway V
11:36:09 <V453000> making them about airport/station is fine
11:36:26 <andythenorth_> Coulda woulda shoulda, but it's a routing game :p
11:36:35 <Wolf01> Yes, and the route should be fun, not just a traight line
11:36:51 <Wolf01> WTF is with my fingers today?
11:37:05 <andythenorth_> only complexity to ships is bouys, and that is just tedious yak shaving
11:37:37 <Wolf01> Automatic buoys assignment?
11:37:38 <andythenorth_> infinite capacity per tile, no other transport type has that in ottd
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11:38:03 <andythenorth_> Limiting docks forces ships to take up more tiles
11:38:18 <V453000> well mainly it puts them into non-infinite shit
11:38:23 <V453000> and eye candy docks are amazing
11:38:48 <andythenorth_> ok we just need to implement the fucker then
11:39:10 <Wolf01> I would like also one ship per lock, and removing the "sliding locks" which is nonsense
11:39:16 <andythenorth_> But all eye candy tiles are in rail station grfs :(
11:39:21 <V453000> just make 1 ship max at 1 dock at a time
11:39:25 <V453000> don't need to make ships not overlap
11:39:26 <andythenorth_> Locks are stupid
11:39:37 <V453000> grfs -> base shit ? :P
11:39:44 <andythenorth_> I am going to patch locks to be 2 tiles
11:40:04 <andythenorth_> And they need some kind of speed penalty or wait time or such
11:40:41 <peter1138> i had a patch for that...
11:41:10 <andythenorth_> 7mph, 9mph, 15mph :p
11:41:17 <Wolf01> Ships need to be nerfed badly and at the same time made more pleasant to play with
11:41:31 * andythenorth_ trolling about CanalTypes
11:41:33 <V453000> just need more mechanics
11:41:50 <andythenorth_> one ship per time in locks?
11:42:12 <andythenorth_> I spent 2 boring hours on the hydrofoil in Vienna waiting for lock
11:42:49 <V453000> one ship per entity in general makes sense
11:42:53 <V453000> be it a dock or a lock
11:43:05 <V453000> rhyme the fuck out of this bitch
11:43:11 <andythenorth_> problem of locks/canals is, I just lower land to sea level always
11:43:26 <andythenorth_> Because reasons
11:45:08 <andythenorth_> Hmm game could auto-bouy when adding orders, pathfinder could figure it out
11:45:21 <andythenorth_> Bouy would have to exist already
11:45:24 <V453000> would be a nice thing
11:45:31 <V453000> certainly much less annoying
11:45:42 <Wolf01> That what I said before
11:46:17 <andythenorth_> Might sometimea have stupid results depending on location of bouy
11:46:42 <V453000> it's not like ships currently don't have stupid results
11:46:58 <Wolf01> We also need water levels, with huge ships not being able to travel on shallow water
11:46:59 <andythenorth_> Bouys could maintain a linkgraph of reachable docks
11:47:18 <andythenorth_> Then ship just routes to bouy
11:47:56 <andythenorth_> Docks could cache routes to other docks :p
11:50:05 <Wolf01> Cached routes will be a good idea, maybe they'll need to be cleared once in a while if the terrain/canals change
11:50:35 * andythenorth_ looking at deep water
11:52:19 <andythenorth_> Dunno about deep water
11:52:54 <andythenorth_> Might be like MHL, sounds good, looks good, but zero gameplay effect?
11:53:28 <Wolf01> MAke aircrafts avoid mountains, so Samu will be more happy
11:56:19 <Wolf01> Btw with MHL naturally occurring steep slopes would be a good idea, make the cliffs more eyecandy and tries to avoid lowering an entire row up to the top if you are lowering a tile on the mountain base
11:58:02 * andythenorth_ back to ship set ideas
11:59:00 <andythenorth_> Not sure whether to keep 'utility ships' (refit pax or freight), or ditch them
11:59:51 <andythenorth_> Road Hog does not have this - RVs can't due to stations
12:00:20 <andythenorth_> Iron Horse has it for specific cases of small trains for small routes
12:00:59 <andythenorth_> Pikka's planes all do it
12:03:03 <andythenorth_> It makes buy menu shorter, but if you run pax mail food to small town, all ships will be same
12:03:39 <andythenorth_> Is realism kind of, except irl it would be one ship carrying all cargos at once
12:04:57 <Wolf01> And reroute every cargo to goods
12:06:33 <Wolf01> It would be good having shore industries which need to be built near roads which produce vehicles, so we could have ferries
12:11:19 <andythenorth_> Which is worse, long buy menu, or monoculture of vehicles in-game?
12:11:50 <Wolf01> (implementation detail: uses 4 bits each, uses 8 bits free in m8) <- So m8 is completely free or there's an offset?
12:12:31 <Wolf01> byte m6; ///< General purpose
12:12:31 <Wolf01> byte m7; ///< Primarily used for newgrf support
12:13:03 <Samu> is there a setting to change the max distance between 2 docks for ship orders?
12:13:54 <Samu> ais don't like 128 tiles distance to be the limit
12:14:05 <andythenorth_> Wolf01 I can't check on my phone, but iirc there was a block of spare bits ;)
12:14:06 <Samu> i see ships with single orders
12:14:27 <andythenorth_> AI can't build bouys reliably?
12:14:42 <Samu> but some ais are not prepared
12:14:57 <Samu> i guess they were tested under NPF
12:15:04 <Samu> NPF allows unlimited range
12:15:19 <Samu> but NPF has some other problems though
12:19:11 <Wolf01> Also, if I understood it well, the 4 extended bits for sub road types are the features?
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12:20:05 <Wolf01> Or they are just the index of the sub road type?
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12:28:16 <andythenorth_> They would index to labels (I assume)
12:28:32 <andythenorth_> The type would define the features via newgrf
12:30:28 <Samu> hmm, from my understanding, reading the log
12:30:44 <Samu> trans wants to transport passengers by ship from Wuwood to Wuwood
12:30:53 <Samu> the city is quite big, but it only uses 1 dock
12:31:11 <Samu> seems to be an AI problem, not a YAPF problem
12:31:27 <Samu> it only has 1 dock total
12:31:48 <Samu> i also see a mention to Mentwood as another possible destination, but I see no dock near Mentwood
12:32:16 <Samu> Mentwood is close to Wuwood, maybe the AI intended to make a connection between Wuwood and Mentwood, not Wuwood and Wuwood
12:32:38 <Samu> I dunno, log isn't clear enough
12:32:50 <Samu> I've already tried YAPF and NPF, it fails on both cases
12:34:03 <Samu> otviai, on the other hand
12:34:10 <Samu> benefits greatly with npf
12:40:41 <peter1138> i had a patch for that...
12:42:50 * Wolf01 googles "how to implement this stuff I'm working on"
12:45:02 <andythenorth_> Multistop newgrf docks? Peter1138 :p
12:48:43 <Samu> terron, otvi, wmdot, nonocab, dictatorai benefit better from NPF than YAPF
12:49:14 <Samu> nocab and trans benefit better from YAPF than NPF
12:50:07 <Samu> dictatorai is difficult to judge
12:50:15 <Samu> could do well on either NPF and YAPF
12:51:02 <Samu> nocab and nonocab are also withing margin of error
12:51:18 <Samu> nocab and nonocab are also within* margin of error
12:52:05 <Samu> nocab appears to have a better advantage later game with YAPF
12:53:32 <Samu> terron, otvi, wmdot seem to prefer NPF clearly
12:54:16 <Samu> nocab seem to have a late game advantage with YAPF clearly
12:54:27 <Samu> I guess overall NPF is preferible for AIs
12:58:20 <Samu> trans appears to benefit better with YAPF
12:58:31 <Samu> interesting... must test this further
12:59:41 <Samu> trans problem is that it generates a ton of lost ships
13:00:02 <Samu> and NPF is prone to having lost ships
13:00:53 <Samu> YAPF seems better on avoiding lost ships, but there's the limitation of 128 tiles max distance which some ais can't cope well
13:04:19 <Wolf01> ShowBuildRoadToolbar(RoadType roadtype) <- I need to pass a sub road type too, or change the RoadType to the SubRoadType and then get the RoadType from that, but I don't know how to define SubRoadType as it should be handled by the newgrfs (I could put there the current ones)
13:05:37 <Wolf01> How does it work for rails?
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13:30:32 <Samu> noob question, i'm trying to fix something on WMDot, i want to have it do unload and leave empty in one of its vehicle orders
13:30:44 <Samu> AIOrder.AppendOrder(MyVehicle, DockLocation, AIOrder.OF_NONE);
13:57:30 <Wolf01> ROTF_CATENARY <- I would add a L
14:00:55 <Samu> who's an expert on orders?
14:01:20 <Samu> what's the difference between No loading and unload and leave empty?
14:01:52 <Wolf01> Unload forces the unload even if the station does not accept the cargo
14:02:13 <Samu> from an AI standpoint, what would be better?
14:02:35 <Wolf01> Depends on the situation
14:03:00 <Samu> i'm unsure what WmDOT does when the oil refinery disappears
14:03:14 <Samu> i guess unload and leave empty would be better
14:03:50 <Samu> gonna try magic bulldozer the refinery
14:05:34 <Wolf01> You just move the problem to another place
14:06:08 <Samu> No Load is bad, he keeps adding ships
14:06:14 <Samu> must try unload and leave empty
14:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the subtype is an index into an array, and the array member is filled with data from the newgrf (or marked invalid)
14:07:22 <Samu> AIOrder.AppendOrder(MyVehicle, DockLocation, AIOrder.OF_???????);
14:07:52 <Wolf01> Samu, you should check if vehicles return loaded when they are supposed to return empty
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14:08:18 <Samu> the way the ai works, it keeps adding ships because of the amount of cargo waiting at the oild rig
14:08:46 <Samu> if I force unload, he won't add that many ships
14:09:00 <Samu> unless oil rig increases prodcution
14:09:23 <Wolf01> You should change the unload station if possible instead of wasting oil
14:09:41 <Samu> well, i am not gonna dwelve into his code, just wanted an easy fix
14:10:20 <Wolf01> Like breaking your other leg to not feel pain in the first one
14:10:48 <Samu> i suppose the AI doesn't expect oil refineries to disappear
14:11:05 <Samu> magic bulldozer isn't the same as saying refinery announced closure
14:11:10 <Wolf01> Eddi, could you guide me a bit?
14:11:27 <Samu> maybe the ai does handle refinery closure
14:11:40 <Samu> don't feel like investigating
14:12:15 <Wolf01> Need more debugging tool, like "force industry closure"
14:14:15 <Wolf01> Eddi, I'm looking at rail.h to get inspiration, I could put in the new road.h some stuff to help the subtypes
14:16:20 <Samu> case AIEvent.ET_INDUSTRY_CLOSE: Log.Note("Nice event and all, but I have no idea what to do about it...", 4);
14:16:29 <Samu> looks like wmdot doesn't care
14:17:23 <Samu> that means... unload and leave empty is the lesser problem for a quick fix, yet not the ideal solution
14:18:17 <Wolf01> It should shut downs the route
14:18:26 <Wolf01> This is the easiest fix
14:19:00 <Wolf01> At least if you don't want to lose money
14:19:19 <Samu> how would I code that? my skills are bad
14:19:33 <Samu> i don't even know how to put a unload and leave empty order
14:20:14 <Samu> i managed to do a no load order though, but unload and leave empty seems to be a mix of NO_LOAD and UNLOAD
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14:28:58 <Samu> the index UNLOAD does not exist :(
14:31:16 <Samu> unload and take cargo.... bah :(
14:31:22 <Samu> must be unload and leave empty
14:34:41 <Samu> i can't manage to do it, grrr
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14:36:25 <Samu> must find an AI that already does unload and leave empty
14:42:20 <Samu> AIOrder.AppendOrder(vehicleID, roadList[0].tile, AIOrder.OF_UNLOAD | AIOrder.OF_NO_LOAD);
14:46:52 <Samu> who's MinchinWeb? does he post on this channel?
15:09:31 <Alkel_U3> also 5-tile stopping distance
15:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: max_te is a vehicle's responsibility
15:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: sorry, i don't have any of the details
15:13:04 <Wolf01> So, I made up a definition for the original roadtypes, I'll have to move the sprite definition too, but I think it could be done later
15:13:37 <Wolf01> Now I only need to fill the _roadtypes[] array
15:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's easy: {default, invalid, invalid, invalid, ...}
15:14:43 <Wolf01> The problem is where... rail seem to do it in newgrf
15:15:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you could just make a dummy function that gets replaced once you do newgrf stuff
15:15:39 <Wolf01> Yes, still no clue where to call it
15:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause> or you could already build in the newgrf stub
15:15:59 <Eddi|zuHause> somewere in the new game code
15:16:13 <Alkel_U3> Eddi|zuHause: well, I wasn't being too serious, but it could be lowered on snowy roads in arctic climate... unless that's a bad feature, of course :-)
15:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: i'm just saying, vehicles that know about roadtypes could do it, but others can not.
15:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the roadtype itself has no influence on this
15:17:49 <Alkel_U3> I didn't look at that that way
15:20:19 <Wolf01> It will be possible to set up a max speed for RoadTypes
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16:34:13 <Wolf01> Nice, sorting the RoadTypes made Tramway first choice
16:34:34 <Wolf01> Not a problem, because I'm still using the old gui
16:37:55 <Wolf01> Still no clue on how to add more hardcoded roadtypes of type 'TRAM'
16:38:39 <Wolf01> The function in newgrf.cpp is weird enough to make me desist
16:38:46 <V453000> Yo program, please add dem TRAM rodetypoz. Thanks, yours sincerely fuck you computer.
16:41:44 <Samu> i'm experimenting wmdot with my fix on the same test conditions i used before
16:41:53 <Samu> let's see if there's a noticeable difference
16:41:56 <Wolf01> Labels need to be exactly 4 chars?
16:42:27 <Wolf01> Or could I use "LTRAIL" and "ELTRAIL" instead of "TRAM"?
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16:47:00 <andythenorth> 1. Restrict ships to only visit compatible docks
16:47:15 <andythenorth> 2. Extend that to arbitrary types, newgrf defined
16:48:08 <andythenorth> 3. Limit docks to n ship stops, and make ships wait somewhere nearby
16:48:22 <andythenorth> 4. Permit multiple docks per station
16:48:48 <andythenorth> 5. Change docks to single tile, and allow building on coast or flat land
16:49:14 <andythenorth> 6. Enable arbitrary dock graphics per type, newgrf defined
16:49:46 <andythenorth> Peter1138 where did ships wait for MultiDocks?
16:49:51 <Alkel_U3> also make ships dock broadside when it's already being fiddled with, perhaps
16:50:11 <Wolf01> Mmmh, nothing changed in game, trying now to effectively call the function
16:51:29 <Samu> hey andythenorth, can you improve dock placement checks?
16:51:40 <Wolf01> Need to bypass the GrfSpecFeature
16:51:49 <Samu> to avoid ship blocking when placing docks
16:52:24 <Samu> only water around is not an enough check
16:53:21 <Samu> this is only to help ais, because humans won't place docks purposedly to block ships, but ais may do it by accident
16:53:59 <andythenorth> Wolf01 AIUI there is an enum which correspons to the railtypes, but I don't know how that connects to a newgrf define data structure further
16:54:20 <andythenorth> Bad typing on tablet :|
16:54:52 <andythenorth> There must be some railtype class or something
16:54:52 <Samu> erm, let me screenshot an example
16:55:17 <Wolf01> Yes I already made roadtype
16:57:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: labels are just an integer, that they translate to exactly 4 characters is just a convention
16:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> they can't be more than 4 characters, though
16:59:09 <andythenorth> They map directly to the bits in the map, no?
16:59:58 <Samu> ship 1 is blocked because as the ship was arriving at the dock, a ship depot was placed in front of it
17:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the map has 4 bits for (rail)type, the label is 32 bit
17:00:08 <Wolf01> Bah, linker doesn't resolve a function call, removing that, useless
17:00:31 <Wolf01> Ok, the game don't explode
17:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: did you add the file to sources.lst and then run projects/generate?
17:00:48 <Samu> ship 2 is blocked because the dock to the right was placed when the ship was docking at ship 1 when coming to it from NE-NW direction
17:01:10 <Samu> ship 2 is blocked because the dock to the right was placed when the ship was docking at the dock to the left when coming to it from NE-NW direction
17:01:23 <andythenorth> Not sure that's related :)
17:02:02 <Samu> when it tries go to the way back, NW-NE, it's blocked by the dock to the right
17:02:40 <andythenorth> Players need to build in better locations? o_O
17:02:51 <Samu> well, players don't have a problem with that
17:03:08 <Samu> they can't easily fix it
17:04:05 <andythenorth> it's an issue, but it doesn't help me design a ship newgrf :)
17:04:25 <andythenorth> I am not an ottd dev, so I can't fix the placement problem
17:07:32 <andythenorth> Fast ships: luxury (payment bonus) or uncomfortable (payment penalty)?
17:08:01 <andythenorth> RL is no guide here
17:08:39 <Wolf01> Oh really, I'm an idiot, I never implemented the function
17:09:11 <andythenorth> Hovercraft can be quite variable
17:09:20 <V453000> then make it hovercat or rubberduck
17:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: scrap fast ships, all ships the same speed.
17:10:18 <andythenorth> I tried that, I think it's a bit limiting on types
17:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> in a comparison between slow and fast, fast always wins, so might just as well scrap all slow ships then
17:10:51 <andythenorth> it means by 1970 or so everything is hovercraft or hydrofoil
17:14:17 <andythenorth> Also, does the argument hold? Why build metro trains instead of 200mph maglev? o_O
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17:16:49 <Alkel_U3> those can have slow acceleration and loading times
17:18:07 <andythenorth> Ship acceleration :p
17:23:08 <Samu> i'm opening a 1 TB log file... zzzzz
17:23:44 <Samu> 952 MB (998.860.730 bytes)
17:24:20 <Wolf01> Ekranoplanes, ships that moves at aircraft speed
17:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is that the game doesn't model a lot of things that could make shipsinteresting/diverse/useful
17:26:16 <Wolf01> I don't know if ipad let you open the diff to see
17:33:45 <andythenorth> Yeah no diff on ipad
17:34:36 <andythenorth> Eddi assume game *did* offer something (anything), what classes of pax ship would then be interesting to have in game?
17:35:32 <Samu> carries tourists, move super slow, high running costs, hmm... but tourists are super rich and pay a lot
17:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> well, let's start with something easy: ferry (high loading speed, fast cargo decay) vs. cruise ship (low loading speed, slow cargo decay)
17:38:55 <andythenorth> Trade station dwell time against travel time
17:39:09 <supermop> ro-ro ferry can carry goods or mail in addition to passengers, watertaxi carries only passengers
17:39:20 <andythenorth> Ferries are for dense cities, like metro
17:39:58 <supermop> water taxi is like metro, big ferry is like regional rail, ocean liners are like inter-city
17:40:26 <andythenorth> But the load time would have to be substantially different
17:41:00 <Alkel_U3> separately refittable cargo holds would be awesome, but that's certainly beyond the scope of this
17:41:25 <supermop> i mean boats should load slower than trains anyway to ofset the infinite capacity of a canal
17:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, i wouldn't vary the travel speed too much
17:42:04 <supermop> that or use that old patch that spaces ot ships and the only pass through one another at low speed
17:42:30 <andythenorth> Eddi not varying travel speeds precludes too many types imo
17:42:46 <supermop> most modern single hull ships go the same speed, gradually increasing with size
17:43:12 <andythenorth> No hovercraft, no hydrofoils
17:43:25 <supermop> nuclear icebreakers or supercarriers would be faster in open water than a little motorboat
17:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> can live without those
17:44:15 <supermop> newest supercarriers go maybe 40 knots, most small ships are close to that
17:44:29 <andythenorth> Eddi, ships limited to 25mph?
17:44:34 <supermop> need a catamaran to go faster
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17:50:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
17:53:03 <Wolf01> Load trains on ships and road vehicles on trains
17:55:46 <Samu> strange, wmdot does fine till the year 2010, then something strange happens
17:56:04 <Samu> sells most ships, keeps only a few, i don't understand
17:56:43 <Samu> sold like 95% of his total
17:57:19 <Samu> seems to be related to old model expiration
17:57:36 <Samu> he can't clone old model anymore by the year 2010
17:58:12 <Samu> but old model expires by year 1990, not 2010, hmm must investigate better
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18:05:19 <Samu> question, when did you introduce that thing that doesn't put cargo on stations after a year or so without having a vehicle loading?
18:05:45 <Samu> he's always evaluating waiting cargo, but it's always 0 now
18:06:21 <Samu> he got routes with 0 ships :o
18:06:33 <Samu> valid routes, but no ships
18:07:35 <Samu> i guess it would be updating the routes to the new model should there be cargo waiting
18:13:29 <Samu> his route manager is buggy, he says route 47, 48 needs more ships, but it's actually adding them to route 57
18:15:04 <Samu> there is no route 57 group
18:15:11 <Samu> it's being added to route 56
18:15:58 <Samu> he's using the ship depot close to route 48 to duplicate ships for route 57 which doesn't have a group
18:16:14 <Samu> that means, ships have to cross half the map to reach destination
18:16:36 <Samu> they got to cross about 1000 tiles distance
18:17:30 <Samu> expecting bankrupt at some point
18:17:45 <Samu> he's wasting all his money on ships crossing 1000 tiles, based on waiting cargo
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18:18:40 <Samu> he got £20M in the bank to burn
18:18:58 <Samu> seems the problem only occurs past year 2010
18:19:28 <Samu> let me look at previous screenshots of this problem
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18:35:36 <Samu> calculate distance going from coordinates 1012,397 to 11,343
18:38:18 <Samu> every 10 tiles, wmdot builds 2 ships
18:39:43 <Samu> there's obstacles in the way, ships actually cross more than 1055 tiles
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18:45:08 <Alberth> @calc 1.4*(397-343)+(1012-11)
18:45:41 <Alberth> @calc 1.4*(397-343)+(1012-11)-(397-343)
18:46:33 <Samu> omg i got this all wrong
18:47:14 <Samu> there's route 48 and 49, essentially they got the same orders
18:47:34 <Samu> when the route manager investigates for waiting cargo
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18:48:02 <Samu> it says route 47 and 48, but 48 and 49 have the so 1300 oil waiting at the oil rig
18:48:24 <Samu> the depot of choice is of that for route 48
18:48:46 <Samu> that depot is near that oil rig
18:48:56 <Samu> but... the ships get the wrong orders
18:49:20 <Samu> they get orders that tells them to go to the wrong oil rig
18:49:29 <Samu> making them traverse half the world
18:49:36 <Samu> that wrong oil rig is of route 56
18:49:46 <Samu> and it does not have 1300 oil waiting
18:49:55 <Samu> it's actually fully saturated
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18:51:02 <Samu> my observations are wrong
18:51:40 <andythenorth> So pax-only ships, or universal?
18:51:57 <Samu> darn, i must correct the post, brb
18:52:06 <andythenorth> If universal, then all other ship types are related to pax
18:52:20 <andythenorth> Which is...harder :p
18:53:23 <Alberth> pax ships have different graphics, don't they?
18:53:52 <andythenorth> Ferries, for example, are pretty universal
18:54:34 <andythenorth> RL keeps intervening in a neat and tidy set design
18:56:14 <Wolf01> Mmmh I need a good steam locomotives video I've not yet seen
18:56:56 * andythenorth needs dedicated ferry dock
18:57:23 <Nitrodev> should i really go as the tutorial on the wiki suggests
18:57:36 <andythenorth> Whatever it says :)
18:59:09 <andythenorth> Tutorial is fine, but just skims the surface ;)
18:59:57 <Nitrodev> well, as i just downloaded the game, and all i have is a single bus going between two stations, i kinda need the start up
19:00:54 <Alberth> it's useful if you never played the game
19:02:42 <andythenorth> So Eddi|zuHause the solution is to level all pax ship speeds for any given year?
19:02:54 <andythenorth> But they could all be 'fast'?
19:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, pretty much
19:03:06 <andythenorth> The actual value is atbitrary
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19:05:09 <andythenorth> If there was a hard limit on ship sprite sizes, designing would be much easier :p
19:05:20 <andythenorth> More constraints would help
19:05:53 <andythenorth> But self-imposed constraint on number of ships did mot work :x
19:05:58 <supermop__> Wolf01: man with movie camera
19:06:11 <supermop__> old soviet film from 20s
19:08:20 <supermop__> has (for the time) ground break train shots
19:11:30 <Nitrodev> sigh, still the train left the coal station without any coal
19:17:10 <Alberth> the first time a train arrives, there is no cargo, so if you don't say "full load", it immediately leaves, since it loaded everything there was (ie nothing)
19:17:15 <andythenorth> Also, irl, express ships rely on frequency of service, one giant ship not as good as three smaller ones
19:17:43 <andythenorth> Give or take other factors, like passenger numbers
19:19:52 *** supermop has joined #openttd
19:21:46 <andythenorth> Ach, pax only ships will do
19:21:57 <andythenorth> Unblocks designing the cargo ships
19:22:12 <andythenorth> No pax-freight universal ships
19:23:24 <andythenorth> RL doesn't apply
19:23:47 <Alberth> just show the ships bottom, in the buy menu, and add the top part in refitting :)
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19:24:37 <Alberth> but having cargo specific ships is much nicer to choose from, imho
19:25:16 <Alberth> especially pax / no-pax
19:25:19 <Samu> group route 56, with 316 ships, of which only 2 are necessary
19:25:51 <Alberth> no no, the AI thinks it needs 316 ships, so 316 ships it is :)
19:26:20 <Samu> the AI is now doing this: ship doesn't profit, sell
19:26:39 <Samu> then adds again on the other side
19:26:39 <Alberth> so it sells all 316? :)
19:27:19 <Alberth> one good way to loose your money :)
19:27:55 <Samu> on another note, NPF pathfinder did actually find a path going through 1055 tiles distance
19:28:03 <Alberth> although it's likely hard to prevent these things from happening
19:28:06 <Samu> but extremely slow server
19:29:45 * Matarazzo slaps Matarazzo around a bit with a large fishbot
19:30:55 <Samu> log range for routes is 0-55, group name range for routes is 1-56, i was being mislead
19:31:08 <Samu> just fixed explanation on the topic
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19:35:36 <Nitrodev> should i consider buying a new vehicle if there are many people or mail waiting at a station
19:35:58 <Nitrodev> and station in this case can refer to airports as well
19:37:36 <Samu> legal question: can I post my modified version of wmdot on the forum? I don't really understand licenses
19:37:50 <Samu> so i'm afraid of doing it
19:41:06 <Nitrodev> is it logical to make buses that go between towns?
19:41:50 <Alberth> Nitrodev: pax (passengers/mail) is hard to handle, you have an endless supply
19:41:50 <Samu> to load my savegame if it's not compatible
19:42:39 <Samu> i've edited wmdot to make his orders at the destination unload and leave empty
19:42:47 <Alberth> Samu: I'd keep the version for a while, until you hear it couild be loaded
19:43:40 <Alberth> although it should be fine for this purpose, I think
19:44:11 <Alberth> if you would publish your own AI, based on wmdot, you'd better give it a new name
19:44:32 <frosch123> yay, finally made the bot work to delete spam from the wiki \o/
19:44:35 <Samu> ah no, i'm not skilled enough for that
19:44:47 <Alberth> but assuming wmdot is GPL, you can still put the source on the forum
19:45:58 *** ChanServ changes topic to "1.6.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | #openttd.dev if this channel is really spammy"
19:45:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Alberth
19:46:21 <Alberth> euhm, ok, thanks ChanServ :)
19:47:34 <Alberth> Nitrodev: passengers between towns works nicely, pax in both directions :)
19:48:04 <Alberth> they might have run out of alphabet letter for +"speech" :)
19:59:25 <Samu> Copyright 2011-2014 by W. Minchin
20:00:42 * andythenorth ponders DockTypes spec
20:01:05 <Samu> Permission is granted to you to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell this software, and provide these rights to others, provided:
20:01:11 <andythenorth> Specifically, whether to optionally preserve current inifinite dock behaviour as option
20:01:28 <Samu> bah whatever, i'll wait for an answer
20:01:45 <frosch123> what should it do when the dock is full?
20:03:37 <andythenorth> On the tile, but not loading?
20:04:18 <andythenorth> Or do docks have some pre-defined holding point?
20:04:20 <frosch123> so you want to limit loading speed to 1 ship at a time
20:04:51 <andythenorth> Also must be compatible with the type of dock...
20:04:53 <Alberth> enable "improved loading"
20:04:58 <frosch123> it already loads only ship, it only starts with the next one of there is enough cargo waiting to completely fill the previous ones
20:05:16 <frosch123> so, are you talking about docks with thousand of cargo wating?
20:06:13 <frosch123> maybe multi-tile docks can just load faster?
20:06:39 <frosch123> ship "length" defines how many docks a ship can make use of
20:08:36 <andythenorth> intent is to a) introduce 'types' for ships by limiting compatibilty to specific docks b) as side effect, increase physical size of docks if lots of ship routes use them
20:08:54 <andythenorth> b is definitely side effect, not intention
20:10:10 * andythenorth must to dinner, biab
20:10:18 <andythenorth> Also....eye candy :p
20:14:26 <Nitrodev> i have 106 passengers waiting at one airport...
20:15:48 <Samu> crap, notepad can't open log files over 1 TB
20:16:29 <Samu> what am i supposed to do now? I need to find out if an AI crashed or not
20:17:25 <Samu> i dont feel like installing word, i dont even know if word would open
20:23:32 <Alberth> Nitrodev: oh, only 106 :)
20:24:05 <Alberth> I tend to have 2000 to 4000 :)
20:26:19 <Samu> it's scrolling all over it
20:27:58 <Alberth> click on the vehicle list, and sort on income
20:28:16 <Alberth> look at the vehicles with negative profits :p
20:30:05 <Alberth> Samu: close the window, stuff scrolls a lot quicker then
20:30:41 <Samu> :) i did that, still not reached the end
20:30:59 <Alberth> 1TB is a lot of lines :)
20:31:15 <Alberth> imagine you have a disk that has 100 times that :)
20:31:49 <Samu> lol i'm so dumb at times
20:32:34 <Samu> 1,06 GB (1.143.425.929 bytes)
20:32:48 <Samu> how did I come up with TB
20:33:59 <Nitrodev> every vehicle is making money...
20:39:53 <Nitrodev> property mainttenance
20:39:56 <Nitrodev> haven't touched loan
20:40:09 <Nitrodev> i mean, i haven't gotten mroe loan
20:40:16 <Nitrodev> since the game starts you off with a loan
20:40:23 <Alberth> ah, enabled infra structure thingie
20:41:35 <Alberth> infrastructure maintenance is its name
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20:42:00 <Alberth> yep, that grows exponentially as you have more tracks/roads/stations/etc
20:42:16 <Alberth> open the finances windows, bottom right has a "infrastructure window
20:43:07 <Samu> real time priority, zzzz
20:43:34 <Alberth> zzzzz is very good, especially in horizontal position :)
20:43:55 <Samu> it can't go any faster than this :(
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20:46:20 <Samu> nice, reachd the end of it
20:46:43 <Samu> still needs 15 more years for 2051
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22:00:06 <Samu> gelignite: did you create gelignAIte?
22:02:54 <gelignite> it's been a while, but yes.
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22:59:31 <gelignite> Samu, sure, but it'll take some time for me to get into that stuff again. as said, it's been a while and i forgot most of it. :-/
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23:36:22 <andythenorth> Bad connection also
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continue to next day ⏵
