IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-08-13
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00:37:54 <Samu> cat simulator, does it exist?
00:58:05 <Samu> break things? my cats don't do that
00:58:41 <Samu> when they do it, they just hide in the smallest hole they can find as quick as they can
01:00:01 <NGC3982> Our two cats break stuff rarely, but when they do - It's usually due to some fart causing panic and -total mayhem-.
01:00:08 <NGC3982> Like full on chairs and tables everywhere.
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01:15:15 <Samu> oh really? to change steam language i need a steam account? no thx
01:52:13 <Samu> that's what it defaults to
01:53:46 <Wolf01> Soooo... I went full retard, or I broke the game... enough vegetable cultivations to satisfy 200 people, they decay in <1m and people starve to death :|
01:55:02 <Wolf01> They have enough water, they are already almost half decayed as soon as I build them, I can't understand why
01:56:20 <Samu> nocab autosaves still working
01:58:05 <Samu> some ais prefer the fastest aircraft, others prefer the capacious aircraft
01:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (or garden soil/fertilizer)
01:58:27 <Wolf01> No, the plants decay and I can't even get the first batch of products
01:59:08 <Samu> and then there's admiralai with his weird choices
01:59:18 <Wolf01> Nah, no such thing in the game, just water and biologists
02:01:16 <Wolf01> Biologists are running like mad because they can't cope with the decaying plants, the strange thing is that at the beginning I had 2 of them keeping the entire bio-sphere, now that I have 25 of them they can't keep 3 bio-spheres
02:04:04 <Samu> all the current 8 running aircraft AIs are being successful
02:04:57 <Samu> NoCAB, DictatorAI, CluelessPlus, NoNoCAB, Chopper, Rythorn Airline AI, SimpleAI and AdmiralAI
02:05:22 <Samu> Chopper however is stuck, but still his currently helis are doing good
02:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like things are not getting where they need to be
02:29:09 <Samu> path of exile patch, a little big
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04:43:00 <ElleKitty> *waves waves to alask0ud!* Nice to have you here!
04:44:20 <alask0ud> Even nicer to have such welcome :')
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07:29:37 <MonkeyDrone> wassup people in da house!
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11:40:44 <Samu> nocab finally took too long to save, restarting
11:48:47 <andythenorth> Wolf01: the Arocs is a lot more performant (and fun) with a simple manual pneumatic pump
11:49:06 <andythenorth> I tried with an airtank also, but it just adds latency
11:49:47 <Wolf01> You need a double pump for the airtank
11:51:34 <andythenorth> the motorised pump was crap in the air tech claw rig
11:51:39 <andythenorth> and 25 years later, no better
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12:00:17 <Wolf01> I'm thinking to convert even the new Volvo wheeled excavator to linear pistons, the arm is almost the same as the crawler claw one
12:09:03 <Amix> where do I eventualy find v0.3.3 of OpenTTD for Windows and OSX?
12:09:48 <Amix> I am writing an crossplatform article etc
12:10:22 <Amix> the latest AmigaOS 68k version of the game that came out is v0.3.3
12:10:42 <Amix> for AmigaOS 4.x its v0.4.7 it seems
12:15:16 <Amix> ok.. amigaos 68k version is not there but on aminet only it seems
12:15:35 <Amix> same with amigaos 4.x ppc
12:17:02 <Amix> with vampire for classic amiga now out for A600, soon for A500, A2000 and A1200.. OpenTTD will work nicely on these machines also :)
12:18:44 <Wolf01> andy, how could we work with the repository? A branch for each single feature just to keep patches which can apply to clean trunk and our trunk with all the patches applied?
12:21:10 <Amix> you should make a system like Amiga Racer got
12:22:26 <Amix> Amiga Racer live update in the game works for all versions. AmigaOS 4, MorphOS, Raspbian, Windows, MacOSX etc.. even if the game is simple, the live update function is brilliant
12:27:07 <Wolf01> Also could you please just add the "bin" folder (leaving out the lang folder) to the repository? So we can fix the resources problem :P
12:28:11 <Wolf01> I would do it by myself, but I don't have any clue on how github works, I always used it in readonly mode
12:45:23 <Alberth> if you use git locally, github doesn't do anything, but making a nice web interface and storing the repo
12:53:16 <Wolf01> I use it with svn, so I don't even know if I can commit
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13:10:18 <Alberth> ah. I would expect you can (modulo access rights), how else are you going to work with svn in a project?
13:14:33 <andythenorth> Wolf01: feature branches, and master
13:14:54 <andythenorth> possibly a candidate branch, to which feature branches can be merged, before pushing them to master
13:15:07 <andythenorth> we have no QA though, so candidate branch is overkill
13:15:21 <andythenorth> and for this, everything will end up merged with everything else all the time anyway :P
13:15:44 <andythenorth> I need to make a new repo, not broken?
13:18:23 <Wolf01> If you want to make a new clean repo you can do it, I don't have changes (only the project includes)
13:42:48 <andythenorth> importing openttd repo to github
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14:02:54 <andythenorth> dunno if it works yet :)
14:07:06 <Samu> it's slow, it affects profits
14:07:19 <Samu> it has a dedicated airport just for it
14:07:35 <Samu> the airport is just too limited
14:13:35 <andythenorth> Wolf01: builds and runs for me
14:15:57 <Wolf01> So... we could start working :P
14:16:08 <andythenorth> I am checking you have commit rights on the repo
14:16:34 <andythenorth> I made a ‘dev’ branch which we can merge feature branches into when needed
14:16:57 <andythenorth> Wolf01: have you got a github user?
14:17:41 <andythenorth> added you as collaborator
14:19:14 <Wolf01> Ok, I would start with a gui refactoring branch
14:19:56 <Wolf01> Just to prepare the soil for the tram split
14:20:54 <andythenorth> we will need a ‘light rail’ icon :P
14:20:58 <andythenorth> in TTD original style
14:21:13 <andythenorth> fortunately I can draw a little bit
14:23:41 <Wolf01> I forked the project, so I think I'll don't mess up your copy if I try to commit something
14:23:57 <andythenorth> git is hard to mess up tbh
14:24:12 <andythenorth> sometimes it requires reading the manual to get something back as intended
14:24:17 <andythenorth> but otherwise very hard to break
14:24:38 <andythenorth> the easiest way is ‘pasting commands from stack overflow’ :P
14:25:58 <Wolf01> Also I like to have more working copies, so I can fiddle with one, make a patch and move the changes to the other one
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14:27:24 <andythenorth> branches, and stash
14:27:34 <andythenorth> but it takes a while to trust git
14:27:44 <andythenorth> especially if you’re coming straight from svn
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14:38:38 <Wolf01> Shouldn't we put the specs in the wiki page?
14:42:51 * andythenorth hates wiki formatting :P
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15:15:30 <Wolf01> Uh... nice, I forgot how to apply a patch made for trunk to a branch
15:16:45 <frosch123> you need to find the right -p parameter
15:17:04 <frosch123> "-p 0" for svn-diff, "-p 1" for everything else
15:17:31 <Wolf01> No, not that, everybody suggests to merge from trunk... but I have a patch file
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15:20:27 <andythenorth> just be in the branch
15:21:12 <Wolf01> I think is better if I do multiple checkouts
15:24:04 <Wolf01> I usually work like: checkout root, work in branches, merge to trunk and create tags from there
15:25:53 <Wolf01> Wtf is wrong with tortoise? Trying to patch a working copy suggests that a non vcs folder is better suitable for the patch
15:26:43 <Wolf01> Ok, the patch kept the "trunk" folder, so that's why can't do it
15:29:21 <Wolf01> Yes, I found that, it's the git format, in svn-format it works
15:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> tortoise was always a bit weird with patches that are not an exact match
15:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> better use the comman line
15:34:44 <andythenorth> svn branches are the ones where it actually creates a new dir for the branch? o_O
15:34:49 * andythenorth has not used it for a while...
15:35:18 <peter1138> unless it's git they're all shit
15:36:25 <andythenorth> hg keeps me humble
15:37:37 <andythenorth> hg probably means ‘heads grow'
15:37:47 <andythenorth> because every time you want to push, you get a new heads warning
15:37:56 <andythenorth> and always it’s another merge and commit :P
15:49:16 <Samu> 1966, 2030, 2037, 1987, 2037, 2007, 2003, 1980
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15:56:16 <Wolf01> I think I already made a mistake, I worked directly on the new branch, btw I don't want to make the dev branch dirty with changes which aren't directly related with the core feature
16:43:52 <Wolf01> Why is BUILD_DOCKS the only plural entry? the other are RAIL, ROAD, AIRPORT... since there is only one type of dock I expected the other to be plural :D
16:46:36 <frosch123> maybe to compensate that there is only one type of dock
16:46:45 <frosch123> while there are different station types for the rest
16:56:00 <Wolf01> The VS rename feature is a bit weird... Can't find references of a variable which is declared just some lines above and used in the 3 lines below
16:56:25 <Samu> SimpleAI has the best profits currently
16:57:39 <Wolf01> Switching the search from "current project" to "entire solution (encluding external items)" seem to work
16:57:54 <Wolf01> It's the same document :/
16:59:16 <Samu> it seems NoCAB does better than NoNoCAB, but i could be wrong
16:59:23 <Samu> will have to wait for 2051
16:59:43 <Alberth> only 35 years from now!
17:05:20 <Wolf01> Error LNK2019 unresolved external symbol "struct Window * __fastcall ShowBuildLtRailToolbar(enum RoadType)" (?ShowBuildLtRailToolbar@@YIPAUWindow@@W4RoadType@@@Z) referenced in function "enum CallBackFunction __fastcall MenuClickBuildLtRail(int)" (?MenuClickBuildLtRail@@YI?AW4CallBackFunction@@H@Z) openttd E:\progetti\OpenTTD\notroadtypes_wolfolo\branches\gui\projects\toolbar_gui.obj 1
17:05:36 <Wolf01> It looks everything ok
17:06:59 <Wolf01> It's exactly the same as the roadtype, I think the problem is elsewhere
17:20:27 <Wolf01> Found, it was in another document...
17:20:55 <Alberth> how useful to report an error like that then :)
17:21:37 <Wolf01> I had to cross reference it with the ShowBuildRoadToolbar function :|
17:22:02 <Wolf01> I missed to replace one entry from "tram" to "ltrail"
17:22:54 <Wolf01> Clearly for VS was everything ok, but the linker said not :P
17:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> try to make sure the project is up to date (by running projects/generate[.vbs])
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17:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> also try to make sure you're running the same program that you are editing :p
17:28:09 <Samu> nobody is joining my servers
17:28:16 <Samu> i guess toyland is the culprit
17:28:29 <Samu> ship servers actually had some compliments
17:28:35 <Samu> until it started slowing down
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17:30:42 <Samu> id like to help somewhere about pathfinding for ships, but all i can do is mere suggestions :(
17:31:28 <Samu> main problem is the amount of cpu usage for lost ships, there should be a way to make it less intensive
17:32:39 <Samu> if they're lost, don't make them search as often if they're lost for a long time
17:39:45 <Wolf01> Oh, found more hardcoded stuff
17:40:00 <Wolf01> case 4: case 8: case 15: case 19: case 21: case 26: hor->Add(new NWidgetSpacer(0, 0)); break;
17:41:18 <Alberth> death to all numbers :p
17:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> although the last 3 are "wrong" :p
17:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> should be 16,23,42 :)
17:41:55 <Wolf01> I didn't understand why it put the spacer between the zoom buttons
17:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> those are the "lost" numbers
17:43:25 <Wolf01> Why do I still read what are you writing? :D
17:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> rule of thumb: you can ignore any line that ends with a smilie :p
17:44:58 <Wolf01> I'll add some more helpers to the widgets enum
17:46:04 <Wolf01> WID_TN_CONSTRUCTION_TOOLS_START, ///< Helper for the offset of the construction tools
17:46:04 <Wolf01> WID_TN_RAILS = WID_TN_CONSTRUCTION_TOOLS_START, ///< Rail building menu.
17:46:15 <Wolf01> It seem too long, any suggestion?
17:46:47 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't seem like something one would be really concerned about
17:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> be more descriptive seems like the better alternative
17:47:23 <Wolf01> In this exact place is not a problem, but in the previous pasted one it might be
17:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> just put all the cases on different lines
17:47:59 <Wolf01> Btw, since other entries refer as "building tools" I think I'll go with BUILD_TOOLS_START
17:49:34 <Wolf01> I'm wondering how many other magic numbers there are around, it's difficult to search them all
18:07:30 <Wolf01> Too late, it's already in 1.6.2
18:10:01 <Wolf01> It's shorter, but I think I'll go with the "BUILDING_" version, just "TOOLS" is too generic
18:10:49 <Wolf01> They are all "tools", it's a toolbar
18:14:53 <Wolf01> Which doesn't add anything new to the concept
18:17:00 <Samu> in 3 years, 2 aircraft ais reach 2051
18:17:04 <Samu> chopper and cluelessplus
18:17:55 <Wolf01> Ok, now I just need to make the roadveh window to work for trams and the first step is done
18:19:42 <Wolf01> Only because it breaks the ships and aircraft lists
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19:08:50 <MonkeyDrone> when the fuck is summer going to end?
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19:16:46 <andythenorth> Wolf01: patched anything yet? o_O
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19:17:09 <Wolf01> Yeah, some refactoring for the gui
19:22:35 <Wolf01> Before proceeding I would like to define the names to use, I think the vanilla code it's already weird enough
19:23:31 <Wolf01> Are you sure to rename RoadType to StreetType after the split?
19:29:20 <Wolf01> And I'm not really convinced about catenary, I think it should be a common feature, do multiple catenaries exist?
19:38:54 <Samu> starting terron and syntrans
19:42:58 <Samu> hmm syntrans seems not building
19:43:29 <sim-al2> Well, hypothetically, there's trolley-bus and three-phase caternary, which have two wires
19:45:05 <sim-al2> Errr, well they are seperate systems, but the visual apparence would be the same
19:45:43 <Wolf01> Which could result really confusing in ottd
19:46:14 <andythenorth> Wolf01: the proposal (iirc) is to keep RoadType for the structure on the tile
19:46:30 <sim-al2> I don't think there were many three-phase trams, but there's tons of trolleybuses around the world
19:46:41 <andythenorth> StreetType is the route type for RVs, not trams
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19:46:51 <andythenorth> I have some irc notes, looking now
19:47:12 <andythenorth> “I think keeping RoadType and being able to unpack it to StreetType and TramType is preferable”
19:48:32 <Wolf01> Ok, but there are some calculation involved, like some <<4 etc
19:48:51 <andythenorth> I’m not sure how it pans out in code
19:49:03 <andythenorth> but we need different terms, or we can’t talk sensibly :)
19:49:13 <andythenorth> the tile has to have a concept of [Something]Type
19:49:35 <andythenorth> and we have to have a name for the ‘not tram’ type of route
19:49:57 <Samu> syntrans wants to build road vehicles before making aircraft, t.t
19:50:00 <andythenorth> “no design survives first commit” :P
19:50:10 <Wolf01> Meanwhile I split the road and tram building toolbars, the station interface for tram still shows the disabled bays
19:51:05 <Samu> next AI to reach 2051 is dictatorai
19:51:19 <Wolf01> I would like to split the vehicles too, but I better not touch it, I already made saveload angry
19:52:25 <andythenorth> frosch recommended we could just leave vehicles alone
19:52:34 <andythenorth> no particular gain by splitting
19:52:51 <Wolf01> Yeah, I came to the same conclusion
19:53:54 <Wolf01> The construction toolbars needed to be split, up to 32 different types in a dropdown will be extremely confusing :D
19:56:02 <Wolf01> Now, I worked in the branch/gui, and I think I'll work there for some more time to clean out and fix the gui a bit more, then we could merge it on the branch/dev
19:58:22 <andythenorth> I think drawing both types will be a mess
19:58:32 <andythenorth> but if only drawing one, which one wins?
19:58:50 <Wolf01> It's like drawing pavements
20:01:32 <Wolf01> Maybe some types should be mutually exclusive
20:01:49 <Wolf01> Eg. you cannot have 2 catenaries on the same tile, even a crossing
20:02:03 <andythenorth> I considered that, but eh, arbitrary restrictions :D
20:02:12 <Wolf01> You need to think better for your routes
20:02:13 <andythenorth> combinatorial explosion
20:02:18 <andythenorth> we’d need a label system ;P
20:02:21 <andythenorth> and a forum thread
20:02:30 <andythenorth> and then a split in the community about two opposing schemas
20:02:32 <Wolf01> It adds difficulty to your puzzle game (V's words) XD
20:02:36 <andythenorth> ideological schism
20:03:26 <andythenorth> apparently I wrote this
20:03:28 <andythenorth> “Where both types draw catenary, OpenTTD will draw all the catenary. If authors don’t like this, they should detect other types by label and special case catenary accordingly.”
20:03:49 <Wolf01> Also dedicated lanes for trams, which mean the RVs are always on the overtaking lane
20:04:02 <Wolf01> And this will work only with oneway roads!
20:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i said back then that that was a pretty dumb approach
20:05:26 <andythenorth> the other options are (1) draw all catenary (2) one type always wins?
20:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> my favourite would be an option where one will win, but gives the NewGRF some interface to set priorities
20:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause> including the option to provide a combined sprite
20:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that's just a variant on tram-with-pavement?
20:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> in my ideal world, tram-with-road would have a lower speed limit than separate tram
20:10:49 <Wolf01> Usually yes, you don't see trams speeding at 70kmh between cars
20:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> preferably with a tram type that forbids putting a road on the same trackbit, only on orthogonal ones
20:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how you can sanely implement this type of embedded grade separation in openttd, except for sim city 4-style puzzle pieces
20:12:59 <Wolf01> That's the point I'm trying to figure out Eddi, allowing every combination is not possible, at least not good looking or really confusing
20:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> which is probably out of scope for this patch
20:15:23 <Wolf01> And we are really lucky we don't have traffic in the game
20:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so, what is the exact problem we're trying to solve right now? drawing multiple layers of infrastructure on top of each other? defining ways how combination of layers can be inhibited? allowing different usage of lanes? [reqires state machines, probably]
20:29:17 <frosch123> rule 37: no statemachines
20:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i said "out of scope" earlier
20:45:17 <andythenorth> multiple tram types
20:45:22 <andythenorth> multiple street types
20:45:25 <andythenorth> max 1 of each per tile
20:49:59 <andythenorth> no changes to vehicles
20:50:03 <andythenorth> no banning combinations
21:04:25 <Wolf01> What's wrong with statemachines frosch123?
21:17:08 <andythenorth> nothing, but they’re vapourware :)
21:17:12 <andythenorth> never will happen
21:33:11 <Samu> teshinet is another ai that can't build aircraft without building road vehicles first :(
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21:36:34 <Wolf01> andythenorth, committed the split
21:38:17 <andythenorth> Wolf01: which repo?
21:39:00 * andythenorth wonders how pull requests work
21:39:43 * andythenorth clicked some buttons
21:42:58 <Wolf01> Is world a better place now?
21:44:46 <andythenorth> need to draw an icon
21:45:48 * andythenorth wants to add tram to hotkey.cfg
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21:48:55 <Wolf01> You need to move some other hotkeys
21:49:58 <Wolf01> I don't know if is enough to just put a value for "build_ltrail"
21:50:06 <andythenorth> so autoroad gets me autoroad or autoltrail, depending which toolbar is open
21:51:26 <andythenorth> triggered an assert :)
21:51:30 <Wolf01> For me it gives only autorail because it's the standard config
21:51:31 <andythenorth> I am good at testing :)
21:52:42 <andythenorth> press ‘8’ with tram build toolbar open
21:53:52 <Wolf01> Nice one, I only use 4 hotkeys: x, a, d, s
21:54:11 <andythenorth> I was just mashing keys to see what happened
21:54:23 <Wolf01> Yes, I removed it, no sense to have it for trams
21:54:53 <andythenorth> it’s very little use for normal RVs either, but that horse has left the stable
21:57:00 <Wolf01> I think the hotkey is defined even for the ltrail toolbar
21:57:34 <Wolf01> Yup, I need to split the enum of the widgets too
21:58:53 <Wolf01> Meh, I forgot to change the name of the class too, it's still BuildTramToolbarWindow
22:00:43 <Samu> holy crap, synaptic just built aircraft, that surprised me
22:01:49 <Wolf01> Uh oh, there are a lot of references in the GS too
22:02:29 <Wolf01> We'll break everything
22:03:46 <andythenorth> frosch advised something about that before
22:04:32 <andythenorth> before writing any spec, I searched all the places RoadType is used
22:04:38 <andythenorth> GS, AI, cost calculations, etc
22:05:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: what breaks in GS just from toolbar split?
22:05:48 <Wolf01> I think GS is not able to build trams
22:07:41 <andythenorth> $someone should write a GS as a test suite
22:07:49 <andythenorth> closest thing we have to Selenium
22:09:12 <frosch123> gs has access to all of the gui to allow stuff like the tutorial
22:09:47 <frosch123> no need to bother about that, you can just regenerate the gs api with src/scripts/api/generate_widget.sh
22:10:27 <andythenorth> Wolf01: ^ that was the thing frosch advised about before I think :)
22:10:35 <Samu> flyspray is being spammed
22:35:47 <andythenorth> Wolf01: tomorrow I will try and get an icon drawn
22:36:09 <Wolf01> Good, I'm fixing the toolbar now
22:39:50 <Wolf01> I need to get rid of some crashes :P
22:45:09 <sim-al2> Weird, the spam is all the same phone number with what I assume are supposed to be keywords
22:46:15 <sim-al2> It appears to all over the major bugtrackers too
22:48:42 <andythenorth> maybe it’s the singularity
22:48:57 <andythenorth> but I need a 1950s version
22:49:16 <andythenorth> keep it as a tram, but modernised? Or engine + two wagons?
22:52:34 <andythenorth> tomorrow can decide
22:55:01 <argoneus> good evening train friends
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