IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-08-05
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05:04:17 <MonkeyDrone> Good morning folks o/
05:27:44 <ElleKitty> *hops onto MonkeyDrone*
05:30:37 * MonkeyDrone crushes to death. Too early in the morningggggggg xD
05:35:47 <MonkeyDrone> didn't you sleep yet ElleKitty?
05:36:11 <ElleKitty> I didnt. I'm very sleepy -_-
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05:36:34 <ElleKitty> But this coal mine wont dig itself up
05:37:17 <MonkeyDrone> lol, let it goooooooooo
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06:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i wish these vassals would actually have an AI that can coordinate...
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07:32:31 <MonkeyDrone> that is one sadistic brutal game.
07:32:50 <MonkeyDrone> my first game, started off as Ottoman....so many regrets :D
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09:17:29 <Alkel_U3> dordf can't dig underwater
09:44:04 <MonkeyDrone> stinky thick savages
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09:51:03 <roboboy> can anyone provide me with assistance on building a win32 binary of OpenTTD under linux? I am using Ubuntu.
09:51:58 <roboboy> I am playing with the new Windows Subsystem for Linux which runs Ubuntu as it's usermode Linux
09:52:49 <roboboy> I also want to eventually try building OpenTTD for DOS at a later stage
09:53:43 <MonkeyDrone> roboboy: why make it for dos?
09:54:02 <roboboy> to test the build system
09:54:32 <roboboy> Once I finish moving out of home, I intend on getting my DOS PC running again.
09:55:17 <MonkeyDrone> that's an interesting undertaking
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09:55:52 <roboboy> OpenTTD in the past has been set up to compile for DOS but it is rarely built for DOS. I intend on testing it every now and then. Plus TTD was originally a DOS game :)
09:56:46 <MonkeyDrone> roboboy: i was there for the original :P
09:57:24 <roboboy> I played TTD on a 98SE machine for many years.
09:57:56 <roboboy> I played the DOS version on 98SE with TTDPatch.
10:00:42 <roboboy> I am also looking at building TTDPaatch under WSL except it's svn server is down. I personally prefer TTDPatch as a player but we won't discuss that here :P
10:03:43 <MonkeyDrone> i dont even know what ttdpatch is :P
10:06:45 <roboboy> it is the program that revitalised TTD for the first time. It provides TTD many of the older enhancements in OpenTTD including the original specs for NewGRF's. It hasn't had any major updates since I think 2006? It is mostly written in assembler.
10:12:55 <roboboy> I once said the reason I don't like OpenTTD is the credits window. That is still the case however to me OpenTTD as a whole no longer feels like TTD for me, there are too many things I can't even put a finger on so I just say I won't argue and will leave it at that :P
10:16:15 <Alkel_U3> I agree, it has different feel. I can't name it, but it has something that OpenTTD doesn't.
10:23:15 <MonkeyDrone> old age and memoery recall :P
10:24:33 <roboboy> if I don't respond to my question about building OpenTTD, pm me an answer on TT-Forums please
10:26:42 <roboboy> I should probably get an X server going on windows and try to run the Linux OpenTTD that way :P
10:29:48 <MonkeyDrone> lol, sounds like alot of work ;p
10:32:02 <roboboy> nah, just download an X server and run a linux command or two
10:32:31 <MonkeyDrone> just for the hell of it eh
10:32:34 <MonkeyDrone> trying out stuff and all
10:47:41 <Alberth> moving graphics over the network eh? :)
10:48:28 <Alberth> will work, but euhm, very slow, most likely, with all the graphics that get modified every frame
10:50:16 <Alberth> but yeah, it's fun when you realize that the screen you're sitting behind, and the computer you work at, doesn't have to be the same
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10:56:12 <roboboy> Alberth: I think it's doing it via localhost.
10:56:40 <Alberth> hmm, not enough fun :p
10:56:48 <Alberth> but a lot faster in the connection :)
10:58:00 <Alberth> running an MP game over localhost is probably better, performance-wise
10:58:33 <roboboy> hehe. That's not what I was doing.
10:59:04 <roboboy> I'm running Microsoft's new Windows Susbsystem for Linux which has no X server.
11:00:36 <roboboy> I built Linux OpenTTD from source under WSL and configured the environment for X and installed an X server on the same Windows 10 machine. I then launched OpenTTD from WSL's bash.
11:00:52 <Alberth> That's correct, the client with the screen runs the X server. The connection gets forwarded to the remote system for connecting the clients
11:01:03 <V453000> idk, playing openttd with original TTD graphics keeps the spirit to me
11:01:25 <V453000> sure it's not exactly the same as 500 years ago but it's still similar
11:02:09 <roboboy> how would I go about building the Windows version of OpenTTD from linux?
11:02:55 <roboboy> my ultimate goal is to build the DOS version of OpenTTD :P
11:07:57 <roboboy> to ensure it still builds. It was 16 years ago since I originally tested OpenTTD on DOS on real hardware.
11:08:26 <roboboy> actually it was 6 years ago but still
11:09:21 <Alberth> install a cross compiler
11:09:53 <Alberth> probably mingw or something, ie a windows c++ compiler
11:14:54 <roboboy> I presume I want to install the 32bit version of Mingw?
11:17:10 <roboboy> actually scratch that
11:29:22 <roboboy> Ah, so I have mingw32 installed. Now to figure out how to build it.
11:34:06 <Alberth> that's the easy part, just specify the compiler that you want to use
11:34:25 <Alberth> you probably also have to specify all the libraries that it wants
11:34:45 <Alberth> ie as option to ./configure
11:35:05 <roboboy> where can I find options to ./configure?
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11:38:42 <Alberth> long time ago that I tried that :p
11:39:13 <Alberth> you may want to write a shell script with the call, unless you like typing long command lines a zillion times
11:47:36 <MonkeyDrone> hardcore nerding going on in here :D
12:00:32 <roboboy> well I am going to try something else for a moment
12:01:04 <roboboy> I'm installing the 64 bit version of mingw as well
12:15:32 <Samu> can't direct link images anymore
12:15:42 <Samu> imgur, you're dead to me
12:24:31 <Samu> all those white dots in the mini-map are ships traveling to nardham oilfield, they have to cross the map
12:24:55 <Samu> it's a 1024x1024 map, takes them 2 years to reach destination
12:26:42 <Samu> on the other hand, yapf is the pathfinder in that test, nice that the ships don't get lost
12:28:00 <Alberth> Yeah, I wondered about the white dots too :)
12:28:37 <roboboy> hm, can't seem to figure out ./configure's requirements
12:33:14 <roboboy> hm, just figured it out
12:33:27 <roboboy> now I need to get windres working
12:38:12 <Samu> lol amd driver update: cant locate folder
12:39:17 <Samu> failed to install AMD Settings Branding - whatever that is
12:40:02 <Alberth> doesn't sound very good :p
12:43:32 <Samu> oh it's just logos, images, links to updater... nothing "important"
12:44:28 <Alberth> that would be "branding" indeed :)
12:45:04 <Alberth> apparently AMD thinks it's sufficiently important to pollute your computer with it :p
12:45:15 <roboboy> hmm, this is annoying
12:45:51 <roboboy> my ./configure is the following
12:46:14 <roboboy> ./configure CXX=i686-w64-mingw32-g++ CC=i686-w64-mingw32-gcc WINDRES=amd64-mingw32msvc-windres --os=MINGW
12:47:40 <Samu> heroes of the storm daily: win 3 games - hardest daily goal :(
12:47:46 <Alberth> I'd expect the option before the parameters
12:47:58 <roboboy> hm, that may not be the right arguments anyway
12:48:00 <Alberth> ./configure --os=MINGW ....
12:48:03 <Samu> i hope today is not a loss streak day
12:48:55 <Alberth> parameters get picked up by configure?
12:48:55 <Samu> blizzard matchmaking system is still evil
12:50:24 <Samu> sometimes i go on to 12 losses in a row... :(
12:52:18 <Alberth> I don't even understand what "blizzard matchmaking" means tbh (and I likely don't even want to know)
12:52:52 <roboboy> ./configure --help says it can take CXX, CC and WINDRES as paramaters and it finds CC and CXX but not WINDRES
12:56:19 <Alberth> it says "environment variables", which are not parameters
12:56:55 <Alberth> CXX=i686-w64-mingw32-g++ CC=i686-w64-mingw32-gcc WINDRES=amd64-mingw32msvc-windres ./configure --os=MINGW
12:57:51 <Alberth> try "export" in the shell, it should give you a dump of environment variables
12:58:37 <Alberth> you can make new ones with "export FOO=some-bar"
12:59:23 <Alberth> Above I used the trick that the shell can make them also for a single command, and forgets them after the command has been done
12:59:54 <Alberth> useful if you want to set some variables, but not permanently (for the current shell)
13:05:42 <roboboy> i'm geting an error about lzo2.
13:08:59 <Alberth> You need a whole set of libraries, for the cross compiler too
13:10:35 <Alberth> you may want to check config.log
13:13:15 <Alberth> you can also set a custom path for each library, like --with-liblzo2=/some/where/here/liblzo2.so
13:13:44 <Alberth> ie I doubt it found the correct zlib :p
13:14:45 <Alberth> this is why I mentioned using a shell script for the command line ;)
13:16:01 <Samu> rofl, medivh is balanced...
13:16:08 <Samu> thx blizzard for another troll hero
13:17:09 <Samu> can't even run away from him
13:17:51 <Samu> today is gonna be loss streak day
13:20:26 <V453000> that's when you stop playing and do something else instead :)
13:20:32 <V453000> moar losses just leads to moar frustration
13:26:00 <roboboy> so I downloaded the lzo source and built it as per the MINGW instruction on the OpenTTD wiki. ./configure no longer gives me errors. However make does fail
13:32:21 <roboboy> atleast i'm making progress
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13:43:17 <roboboy> can someone point out what could be causing make to fail? Earlier I got it to fail on endian_check but can't get it to do that again.
13:43:31 <Samu> i want 362k gold, won't stop playing
13:44:51 <Samu> 2045, 2019, 6 years till wmdot yapf ships reach 2051
13:45:25 <Samu> or maybe... wmdot will bankrupt before that
13:46:27 <MonkeyDrone> Samu: what game are you playing?
13:46:54 <MonkeyDrone> what hero you going to buy with all that gold you are collecting?
13:47:04 <MonkeyDrone> running dat stimpack too? makes insane difference
13:48:14 <MonkeyDrone> i really wish they overhauled Uther, he used to be my top hero but his healing started being less and less effective as more heros came in
13:48:35 <MonkeyDrone> now he's hopeless in pugs
13:48:53 <Alberth> roboboy: the compiled getoptdata.o is not in a file format that the linker understands. Perhaps you 'make'-ed it with another compiler? To be sure, clean up everything (make mrproper) and run configure and make again
13:49:20 <Alberth> it should compile everything again, including getoptdata
13:50:55 <roboboy> aha, got the endian_check error again
13:51:15 <MonkeyDrone> screw NUTS, dammit V453000. I try playing OTTD with vanilla trains now and they bloody stuck compared to NUTS.
13:51:28 <Alberth> If that doesn't fix it, you can try VERBOSE=1 make that dumps the commands that are actually being executed. Likely one of the compile commands uses the wrong path
13:51:28 <MonkeyDrone> V453000: successfully ruined classic ottd for me. gg.
13:52:57 <Alberth> euhm, that's full with unreadable unicode characters
13:54:12 <roboboy> the whole paste or just line 4?
13:54:17 <Alberth> ./objs/lang/endian_check should then also fail with the same error
13:55:36 <Alberth> Ah, right, you can't run a cross-compiled endian check of course :p
13:59:06 <Alberth> run the thing on the target platform, and set option --endian=ENDIAN in configure
13:59:33 <Alberth> at least, that sounds reasonable :p
14:00:05 <roboboy> so run endian_check in windows?
14:00:16 <Alberth> unless you know endianness at the target platform, you can skip the first step
14:00:33 <Alberth> *if you know, you can skip
14:01:36 <Alberth> well, it's 90+% sure it's little endian :p
14:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never heard of a big endian windows
14:06:35 <MonkeyDrone> you play HL? or just normal
14:06:49 <MonkeyDrone> nice, that's where the fun is at
14:07:01 <MonkeyDrone> i stick to my supports and tanks
14:07:41 <Samu> statistics say i'm best with valla
14:08:10 <Samu> azmodan and nazeebo i think
14:08:48 <MonkeyDrone> Valla, damn i suck with her.
14:08:51 <roboboy> so the command I am running is CXX=i686-w64-mingw32-g++ CC=i686-w64-mingw32-gcc WINDRES=i686-w64-mingw32-windress ./configure --os=MINGW --endian=LE
14:09:18 <roboboy> it still fails on endian_check.exe
14:09:19 <MonkeyDrone> I am great with Uther, Murky, Sonya and Morales
14:09:48 <MonkeyDrone> <3 murky, but i heard they nerfed him latest patch, have not played him since hte new patch
14:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there a "cross compile" option that skips the endian check?
14:23:37 <Alberth> ha, this is just for being cheaper than a proper crossing, I guess
14:25:23 <Samu> wmdot will bankrupt right before 2051 :( that's sad
14:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <MonkeyDrone> my first game, started off as Ottoman....so many regrets :D <-- and they say that ottomans are one of the easiest countries
14:28:33 <MonkeyDrone> Eddi|zuHause: the problem wasn't the ottoman itself. I had conquered 2 of my neighbors. Then another super power came in and said it would screw me over if i started war with anyone else. I took it on, lost miserably xD
14:28:51 <MonkeyDrone> and ottoman is not easy , they have a lot of penatly on their tech advancement
14:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but they also have good leaders
14:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and all you need is vienna and tech 10 to westernize
14:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you likely get to miltech 4 before anyone else
14:30:25 <MonkeyDrone> i always focused on aggressive expansion, probably was the reason for my downfall most of the time
14:30:39 <Samu> MonkeyDrone: descending order: valla, azmodan, nazeebo, sylvanas, sgt. hammer, muradin, raynor, li li, e.t.c., malfurion, tychus, sonya, jaina, diablo, arthas, falstad, anub'arak, kael'thas, stitches, chen, johanna, tyrande, gazlowe, rehgar, uther, tassadar, thrall, tyrael, brightwing, kerrigan, nova, rexxar, leoric, kharazim, the butcher, illidan, lunara, lt.morales, zeratul, li-ming, tracer, xul, greymane, the lost vikings, medivh, artanis
14:30:43 <MonkeyDrone> i played as aggessively as i could with the ottomans, went full genghis on their butts
14:31:08 <roboboy> I couldn't find a "cross compile" option
14:31:12 <MonkeyDrone> got hotlogs Samu?
14:31:28 <MonkeyDrone> lost vikings at the bottom xD, i hate em :P
14:31:29 <Samu> no idea what's that, i keep hearing of that
14:31:42 <MonkeyDrone> how do you not know of hotslogs!?
14:31:47 <MonkeyDrone> how long have you been playing that game?
14:32:30 <MonkeyDrone> 2 years...damn Samu, you should really look into hotslogs
14:33:03 <Samu> the site is either slow or is not opening for me
14:34:14 <MonkeyDrone> it collects your stats by having to upload your replays
14:34:26 <MonkeyDrone> so if you start now, it will start profiling you adn over time you can see how well you roll
14:34:36 <MonkeyDrone> Murky 72% win rate <3
14:35:10 <Samu> oops nevemind, those are not the most deaths as
14:35:29 <Samu> most deaths as: valla, li li, malfurion
14:36:04 <Samu> well, auto selects valla most of the time when she's available...
14:36:42 <MonkeyDrone> cause no one else plays her anymore :p
14:37:01 <Samu> i wanted a death/win ratio
14:37:24 <Samu> most assists as: li li, malfurion, valla
14:37:48 <Samu> most kills as: valla, tychus, raynor
14:38:19 <MonkeyDrone> they nerfed him a bit but he was so epic before the nerf
14:38:19 <Samu> valla is in in every "most *something)
14:38:32 <MonkeyDrone> play her enough and she will be, duh :P
14:38:54 <Samu> Welcome to HOTS Logs! - it has opened!
14:39:22 <roboboy> I suspect I will have most of these problems again when I try to build for DOS :(
14:39:30 <Samu> inlcudes hero league matches? so no quick match?
14:40:17 <Samu> hero bans? what the hell is a hero ban?
14:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: have you actually checked the wiki page on cross compiling?
14:41:02 <MonkeyDrone> Samu: competitive play, you can ban heros in selections i think
14:41:39 <Samu> zagara with the most win % in those stats
14:42:23 <MonkeyDrone> she got major upgrades last patch
14:43:14 <Samu> she's so annoying, 1 hit kills
14:43:35 <Samu> blah whatever she uses that teles me back into death
14:43:50 <MonkeyDrone> lol but Chronie needs good skills at knowing where your enemy will be
14:43:57 <MonkeyDrone> i bought her, tried playing, i suck with her
14:44:21 <MonkeyDrone> bought tracer also <3 she's freakin brutal in the right hands
14:44:21 <Samu> i dont trust these statistics
14:44:36 <MonkeyDrone> these statistics onhotlogs are only calculated from replays uploaded by people
14:44:55 <MonkeyDrone> so more people upload their replays, (which is uploaded automatically) each is like 250KB
14:45:01 <MonkeyDrone> the hotslogs desktop app takes care of it
14:45:10 <roboboy> Eddi|zuHause: No. I didn't spot it under Category:Compiling OpenTTD
14:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: hm. i thought i saw it there some years ago
14:46:13 <Samu> azmodan as the worst siege? they gottta be kiding me
14:46:26 <Samu> everytime i see azmodan, i know forts are gone
14:47:08 <MonkeyDrone> a lot of people can't play Azmo
14:47:13 <MonkeyDrone> i've seen so many bad azmos
14:47:15 <roboboy> I am looking at it now however
14:47:30 <MonkeyDrone> they don't know how to split push
14:47:53 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: while at it, you might add it to the category ;)
14:48:54 <Samu> wmdot is still surviving
14:49:18 <Samu> 4 more years till 2051, i doubt he'll make it
14:55:14 <Rubidium> roboboy: have you tried ./configure --host=i686-w64-mingw32 ?
15:01:22 <roboboy> no. Will try that next
15:03:22 <Rubidium> the biggest PITA of cross compiling are the "config" scripts of the libraries, e.g. pkg-config and so on will not magically give you the right library so you need to "customize" those scripts, or have only those scripts for the architecture you're building for, or have the scripts in a separate folder and mention them explicitly
15:03:58 <Rubidium> that's why it's best to disable all the libraries at first and see if you can get a binary built, and then start worrying about those libraries
15:10:37 <Rubidium> could you do a make VERBOSE:=1 (no need to do mrproper or configure)
15:19:21 <Rubidium> okay, one of the libraries is messing with the build path. Try again with --without-png --without-icu --without-liblzma --without-lzo2 --without-zlib extra
15:26:49 <Rubidium> guess what... add --without-sdl --without-iconv
15:27:11 <Rubidium> (it --without-iconv exists)
15:32:35 <Samu> last year for wmdot, almost there, he's surviving with bankrupt warnings
15:43:01 <roboboy> thankyou Alberth and Rubidium . I presume to build for DOS, I will need to download and build djgpp myself?
15:45:05 <roboboy> anyway, I should go to bed soon. Am just installing wine on Ubuntu on WIndows to see if I can run the Windows version in that crazy environment.
15:59:17 <Samu_> started nonocab v3 original/npf/yapf ships tests
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18:45:34 <Samu> heh, running hots + 3 servers ottd + 3 spectators ottd uses 6.8 GB RAM
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18:57:21 <Samu> tyrande is the worst hero possible
19:03:14 <ElleKitty> Whenever you see this, let me know
19:07:34 <Samu> tyrande is good at what?
19:08:09 <Samu> can't kill, can't lane, can't run, can't heal, ...
19:08:57 <Samu> dies in 1 shot from nova, great hero...
19:09:17 <Samu> worst hero i played so far
19:10:36 <Samu> and i'm tyrande again...
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19:28:23 <Wolf01> Just finished the Porsche, with some mods
19:31:43 <andythenorth> reloading newgrfs
19:32:05 <andythenorth> allocate keys to each newgrf dev?
19:32:14 <andythenorth> only enable it for known hashes?
19:32:27 <andythenorth> that raises the bar to someone who can at least find or generate a reverse hash table
19:32:44 <andythenorth> and if *your* newgrf developer key leaks publicly, you lose all rights ever
19:32:59 <andythenorth> that’s a good engineering solution to social problem eh?
19:43:26 <frosch123> self-sign your newgrfs? :p
19:43:39 <frosch123> only reload newgrf if you have the private key for it?
19:44:31 <andythenorth> authenticate with a central server?
19:44:47 <andythenorth> all newgrf developers are in the pool?
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19:45:35 <frosch123> what is a newgrf developer?
19:45:59 <frosch123> do you need to purchase a nml license?
19:46:27 <frosch123> hmm, we could just rename the "reloadnewgrfs" command to "andy"
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19:52:32 <Samu> next year gpu codenames: vega, volta
19:56:19 <Samu> some benchmarks show a more than 100% more performance than the best radeon
19:56:38 <andythenorth> this is about as on-topic as Lego :)
19:56:50 <andythenorth> the only thing new graphics cards do for OpenTTD is make it worse
19:56:54 <Alberth> lego is perhaps more on-topic :)
19:57:07 <andythenorth> OpenTTD graphic performance has progressively diminished over time
19:58:03 <Alberth> could be useful to consider what newgrf features could be dropped :p
19:58:18 <Alberth> or maybe, must be dropped
19:58:58 <andythenorth> palette animation
19:59:54 <Alberth> the kinds where newgrf decides which sprite to draw are worse, afaik
20:00:20 <Alberth> but that's basically all newgrf :(
20:02:34 <andythenorth> it’s the palette animation that kills my game :)
20:02:49 <andythenorth> if I enable it, I can literally see each frame on things like payment animation
20:03:42 <andythenorth> also having multiple viewports on the map (a train window for example)
20:04:45 <frosch123> we need a separation from the game logic and the drawing :)
20:04:56 <Alberth> palette animation is not a problem in a gpu
20:05:16 <andythenorth> GPUs got worse I think :)
20:05:21 <andythenorth> or OS X removed something
20:05:57 <Alberth> Apple knows what's best for you, as always :)
20:06:23 <Alberth> tbh, I have absolutely no idea what gpu I have at my system, it could be worse :)
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20:37:05 <Samu> tyrande is really useless...
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21:09:29 <Samu> how does trans waste £2M on ship running costs
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21:11:26 <Samu> ah no, my bad, ships are really costly
21:11:47 <Samu> trans is wasting money on ships that get lost, i forgot about that detail
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22:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> did anyone attempt yet to implement palette animation as a gpu shader?
22:15:23 <Alberth> I don't see any problem with that
22:16:23 <Alberth> make a few textures for the various states, and sample them in the shader
22:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not really a "problem", just something that you need to put some effort into to make it work
22:18:18 <Alberth> It's not even close to the real problem, as far as I can see. I'd consider that as something that can be added later
22:29:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how should ship sizes increase? linear steps, or exponentially, or what?
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22:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd try quadratic
22:30:00 <andythenorth> I often find there isn’t a ‘right size’ ship at the small end
22:30:11 <andythenorth> and maybe too many choices at the higher end
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22:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> linear sounds wrong
22:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and exponential tends to be too much
22:31:46 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 2.57142857143
22:31:59 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 2.15384615385
22:32:47 <andythenorth> current Squid values don’t work for my games
22:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> if you go exponential, pick a factor smaller than 2, like 1.5
22:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> or alternate between 1.5 and 1.33
22:41:44 <andythenorth> that makes sense
22:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> for comparison: factor sqrt(2) is how european paper sizes work, and alternating 1.5 and 1.33 is how american paper sizes (some of them) work
22:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> in both cases, 2 steps are a factor of 2
23:16:49 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 129.72
23:17:03 <andythenorth> @calc 1.41 * 130
23:17:12 <andythenorth> probably too closely spaced
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23:52:59 <DorpsGek> Samu: calc <math expression>
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