IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-08-01
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10:57:11 <V453000> do yoiu have some foundations to sell?
10:57:33 * V453000 needs to obtain foundations
10:57:48 <V453000> methods other than labour are preferable
10:58:00 <Wolf01> I have Asimov's foundation, but I won't sell it :P
11:02:50 <Wolf01> I also have headache :(
11:03:28 <V453000> ok, plan: fix headache, it will make you realize you want to sell foundations
11:03:37 <V453000> I require all 104 of them, ty
11:09:22 <V453000> ok new deal, I will be happy with but they have to be unique, no duplicates
11:09:26 <V453000> just go automate some
11:10:29 <Wolf01> Also, they are the italian version
11:11:02 <V453000> ok I will accept any foundation origin
11:14:22 <Alberth> so what is exactly a foundation?
11:14:46 <Wolf01> It could be a different thing for each person
11:15:01 <V453000> the shit that appears when you build something on a slope
11:15:10 <Alberth> in the past 10 minutes, it obviously was :)
11:16:57 <Alberth> well, you're much better at visual shit than me, I am guessing you don't need help there. That thus raises the problem what part do you need?
11:18:04 <V453000> it actually doesn't really carry any visual requirements
11:18:26 <V453000> you just place tile masks in the right fashion for 666 hours and you are done suddenly
11:19:39 <V453000> nah I 'll do it in the evening but FUCK
11:20:34 <Alberth> assuming there is a system in it, I am happy to generate 104 cases, but I need to know what "a case" is here
11:20:45 <Alberth> ie what text output do you need?
11:23:38 <V453000> just bitching randomly
11:27:07 <Alberth> yeah, making 104 similar things isn't much fun
11:27:29 <V453000> I'll make the 20 unique pieces and then put the 104 together but still, yeah
12:03:20 <MonkeyDrone> o/ afternoon ladies
12:04:40 <MonkeyDrone> third interview with the government tomorrow for the government job, shit is looooking goood :D
12:04:50 <MonkeyDrone> can't wait to get a job where there's no work to be done, bahahhaha
12:06:58 <MonkeyDrone> actual work to do? xD
12:07:16 <MonkeyDrone> i've seen how it goes here
12:07:47 <Alkel_U3> Like pkay DF overtime for job?
12:07:57 <MonkeyDrone> 7:30am - 9:00am (breakfast time), 9-11 (work time) 11-12(prayer break) 12-2(lazy man's work) 2-> go home
12:08:28 <MonkeyDrone> Alkel_U3, government job doesn't care about OT much , it depends on the department. If I gets it, why the hell not, i mean i expect them to have 100Mbps fiber :D
12:09:52 <Alkel_U3> That job desription is kinda close to what I'm having during summer
12:10:00 <MonkeyDrone> Alkel_U3, hehe it's nice ain't it :p
12:11:57 <MonkeyDrone> that laptop or i add in 45% more price on top of that and get an IPS screen...yarrggh
12:12:38 <Alkel_U3> it's just a tad too far to the coffee machine
12:13:04 <MonkeyDrone> i'm not looking for a pro gaming laptop xD
12:13:14 <MonkeyDrone> i got my pc for that <3
12:13:39 <MonkeyDrone> laptop just for dem easy on the system games like Factorio, oTTD, rimworld etc
12:13:52 <MonkeyDrone> and fuck DF, that game is frustrating :P
12:14:18 <MonkeyDrone> i upgraded it's learning curve difficulty to 'Brutal'.
12:15:12 <MonkeyDrone> but they might as well be god damn demons
12:15:25 <Samu> i don't know much about laptops
12:15:43 <Hiddenfunstuff> Theres no machine that will run endgame fortress
12:15:58 <Alkel_U3> That gpu is fine unlesss you need to play Maul of Dooty 40 in 8k and won't fry the battery
12:16:50 <MonkeyDrone> Hiddenfunstuff, no, the problem is not the system
12:17:08 <Alkel_U3> Hiddenfunstuff: there is, problem is liquid helium is hella expensive :D
12:17:19 <MonkeyDrone> Hiddenfunstuff, the problem is over population. What you need is to send out expeditions far into the north. Far far into the north, and wage a few wars and then let disease take care of the rest including famine
12:17:31 <Hiddenfunstuff> yeah, control your cats and dont flood your fortress
12:17:51 <MonkeyDrone> well they did come out with 64bit version of the game
12:17:55 <Hiddenfunstuff> or dont start building any kind of Project FTW type things where you literally empty out magma lakes onto your front door
12:18:00 <MonkeyDrone> I can assume it might help with the number crunching some what
12:18:18 <Alkel_U3> Hiddenfunstuff: also, you leave MonkeyDrone alone, he's not far enough to meet you, yet :D
12:18:27 <MonkeyDrone> lol, magma pool, just like them dwarf hippies like it
12:18:46 <Hiddenfunstuff> How else you gonna destroy those zombie sponges?
12:19:01 <Hiddenfunstuff> drown them in magma
12:19:02 <MonkeyDrone> Hiddenfunstuff, you can say I started 2 days ago, I only learned some stuff yesterday with Alkel_U3 help. Still trying to wrap my head around things
12:19:22 <Hiddenfunstuff> Just dont dig too deep yet, Because you'll find an circus that goes on and on. it never stops
12:19:39 <MonkeyDrone> I still need to dig deep, need metal!
12:19:48 <Alkel_U3> but dig deep, that's where trasure is :-)
12:19:52 <MonkeyDrone> just got to the stone layer, i assume metal is somewhere deeper
12:20:02 <MonkeyDrone> treasure, zombies and dragons i bet
12:20:25 <Hiddenfunstuff> When you hit the magma sea, Dont dig deeper unless you have proper failsafes and isolation mechanisms ready, such as blowing up your fortress separate all around
12:20:42 <Alkel_U3> don't spoil it for him
12:21:03 <MonkeyDrone> my dwarves will bathe in the sea of magma and be untouched by fire :P
12:21:13 <Hiddenfunstuff> You'll find the FUN eventually
12:21:18 <Alkel_U3> having to start multiple times and learning from mistakes is a part of the game :-)
12:21:28 <MonkeyDrone> forgot my bag in the car, brb, before it melts...
12:21:34 <Hiddenfunstuff> I casted a obsidian fortress once
12:22:52 <Alkel_U3> well, I haven't tried that yet. Yet.
12:23:02 <Hiddenfunstuff> I also made a ice fortress
12:23:15 <Hiddenfunstuff> Then the fucking elephants came..
12:24:14 <MonkeyDrone> back, last time i left my bag in the car...I went out the next day, opened up my laptop at the coffee shop and my screen was all rainbow'ish from the heat
12:24:46 <MonkeyDrone> took it an hour or two to go back to normal, woooo, no permanent damage from what it already suffers from :P
12:25:05 <MonkeyDrone> Hiddenfunstuff, didn't you have spike traps and weapon traps to kill them elephants?
12:25:28 <Hiddenfunstuff> No, I built a magma pit around my fortress and sealed off every entrance to it
12:26:06 <MonkeyDrone> the elephants wandered off after a while?
12:26:16 <Hiddenfunstuff> and 1 draw bridge that leads to an trader area and then theres yet another drawbridge forwards that lead to the actual fortress
12:26:19 <Hiddenfunstuff> sort of an airlock
12:26:31 <Hiddenfunstuff> No, They butchered everything that came out of the fortress most of the time
12:26:50 <Hiddenfunstuff> Eventually i started dropping excess cats outside the fortress
12:26:54 <MonkeyDrone> crossbow soldiers?
12:27:08 <MonkeyDrone> lol, how did that turn out
12:28:21 <Hiddenfunstuff> Eventually i accidentally flooded half of my fortress with lava during my aggressive expansion from the said lava trench
12:28:29 <Hiddenfunstuff> And thats when it murdered my CPU
12:29:30 <MonkeyDrone> ouch, what CPU you running on?
12:29:35 <Hiddenfunstuff> Pretty much liquid calculations and massive catplosions are the thing that murder your hardware
12:29:40 <Hiddenfunstuff> an old i5 2500k
12:30:17 <Alkel_U3> elephants never really gave me trouble, 30+ marksdorfs are pretty efficient at dispatching things
12:30:26 <Hiddenfunstuff> Before i ran on an AMD Athlon 64 OC'd to like 2.8Ghz so it could've kept up with DF
12:30:40 <Hiddenfunstuff> Were your elepahnts..normal?
12:30:54 <Alkel_U3> like, once a dragon thought it would be funny to fly over my walls. Once.
12:31:15 <Hiddenfunstuff> try settling on Evil area..
12:31:27 <Alkel_U3> that's a lot of nope :D
12:31:30 <Hiddenfunstuff> Anything left outside will eventually try to kill you
12:31:48 <Hiddenfunstuff> Things such as elephants, dead elephants, legs.. sponges..
12:31:50 <Alkel_U3> not neccessarily only outside
12:32:02 <Hiddenfunstuff> I had couple cats maul few dwarves aswell
12:32:17 <MonkeyDrone> well glad to know what evil areas do :P
12:32:28 <Hiddenfunstuff> Pretty much anything will kill you there
12:32:30 <Hiddenfunstuff> Even if its dead
12:32:52 <Alkel_U3> in adventurer mode I went into a tomb once. I awoke a necromancer, he animated a crab chitin in my backpack and it pushed my brainz out
12:33:04 <MonkeyDrone> how well would a celeron run DF? :P
12:33:14 <Hiddenfunstuff> Question is, how long
12:33:19 <Alkel_U3> depends on how fast you die :D
12:33:26 <MonkeyDrone> lol Alkel_U3 , cruel way to die xD
12:33:27 <Hiddenfunstuff> depends if you get to play with liquids or not
12:33:55 <MonkeyDrone> celerons are like dirt cheap :D
12:34:04 <Alkel_U3> yeah, as long as the liquids stay in their original areas it's fine
12:34:06 <MonkeyDrone> but i doubt they will handle any cpu intensive games
12:34:19 <Alkel_U3> I run it on haswell pentium
12:34:21 <MonkeyDrone> can't you have lava around your whole base
12:34:25 <MonkeyDrone> andjust have gates over it
12:34:37 <Hiddenfunstuff> if you want to play with fire
12:34:43 <Alkel_U3> it's actually not that slow as one might think
12:34:46 <Hiddenfunstuff> I did, and i flooded the fortress
12:35:03 <Alkel_U3> fluid handeling isn't easy :-)
12:35:07 <Hiddenfunstuff> I also had a masterful drwaf who was my engraver..
12:35:25 <Hiddenfunstuff> He locked up himself into a room with one of my main smith's cats..
12:36:11 <Hiddenfunstuff> You can quess it, he ate the cat. then the smith went absolutely nuts and butchered just about everything.. This was while the engraver had a great vision in mind and about to create something magnificent
12:36:32 <Hiddenfunstuff> The game is brilliant, literally anything can happen
12:36:50 <MonkeyDrone> ah looking at benchmark, celeron is a nope when you can get way betterfor alittle more :D
12:36:54 <Alkel_U3> more and more weird shit can happen :-)
12:38:30 <Alkel_U3> I see pentium or maybe an i3 as the good bang for the buck. But let's see what AMD conjures
12:40:24 <MonkeyDrone> i don't know how to read AMD
12:40:34 <MonkeyDrone> i don't know what compares to a decent i3-i5 6th gen cpus
12:42:06 <Alkel_U3> not well, especially in terms of power efficiency. I was talking about their upcomming Zen.
12:43:09 <MonkeyDrone> aye, but them prices will be touching the sky at release
12:43:09 <Alkel_U3> I really hope they'll bring competition for Intel again
12:44:07 <Alkel_U3> I don't really care about release, I just want to have a good choice in, say, 2-4 years. I'm not really planning an upgrade soon, anyway :-)
12:50:18 <MonkeyDrone> hehe , poor AMD, everyone is waiting for Zen. well good luck to em i guess
12:52:03 <Hiddenfunstuff> Intel for CPU, ATI for graphics
12:55:29 <Alkel_U3> ati? That's a bit old :P
12:55:55 <Hiddenfunstuff> I'v been good with AMD, last Nvidia card i had was 9800GT
12:56:08 <Hiddenfunstuff> They are just too expensive for their power
12:56:59 <Alkel_U3> well, now that AMD GPUs are starting to get proper linux support I'll definitely consider them when I upgrade
12:57:23 <Hiddenfunstuff> Nvidia never had it
12:58:06 <Alkel_U3> amd drivers were unreliable and full of glitches
12:58:18 <Hiddenfunstuff> As far as i know, nvidia never had drivers that worked
12:58:26 <MonkeyDrone> Alkel_U3, my current laptop is AMD, one of the reasons why i don't have linux on it
12:58:33 <MonkeyDrone> freakin nightmare x.x
12:59:15 <MonkeyDrone> Hiddenfunstuff, don't know about nvidia and laptop support. But nvidia seems to be making drivers for linux now so maybe they have made progress recently
13:00:03 <Alkel_U3> iirc ati support was ok-ish but then it went to heck. Well, there's intel lately, if you don't need too much power
13:00:33 <Hiddenfunstuff> Well, last time i tried to use linux with nvidia, I didnt find any drivers that worked, without drivers i was stuck in a 4:3 resolutions...
13:01:06 <Alkel_U3> was it a really old card on very new system?
13:01:17 <Hiddenfunstuff> It was fairly new on its time
13:01:25 <Hiddenfunstuff> which is, holy shit like 8 years ago
13:01:40 <Alkel_U3> well, things changed since then
13:01:42 <Hiddenfunstuff> Things might be different now
13:01:51 <Hiddenfunstuff> I just never bothered with nvidia because of the price
13:01:51 <MonkeyDrone> the world has changed in 8 years xD
13:02:18 <MonkeyDrone> hmmmm, i've ubuntu installed as dual boot on the pc here
13:02:26 <MonkeyDrone> any benchmark things ic an run on both OS to test it out
13:02:29 <MonkeyDrone> and see how well it performs
13:06:14 <MonkeyDrone> i should switch to linux ;P
13:06:29 <Hiddenfunstuff> Get rid of htat cancerous windows
13:07:17 <Hiddenfunstuff> Atleast reduce its usage and look for alternatives
13:07:20 <MonkeyDrone> no longer an option, sis plays too many games on here
13:07:34 <Hiddenfunstuff> Yes that might be problematic
13:07:40 <MonkeyDrone> yeah, should not have let her get on that horse xD
13:07:43 <Alkel_U3> yes you can, you will be compilling kernell all the time so you won't have time for games anyway :P
13:07:51 <MonkeyDrone> need to get her an alternate option
13:08:08 <MonkeyDrone> ah screw the kernels, i'm not going to hardcore nerd on it :D
13:08:59 <Alkel_U3> nah, one doesn't have to screw around like that with Ubuntu :-)
13:09:14 <Hiddenfunstuff> compiling and more advanced programming is neither my joy, But i still daily drive a linux nowadays
13:09:45 <Hiddenfunstuff> I still have win7 machine sitting side by side with my main rig so when i need it, i have it immediately there
13:11:22 <MonkeyDrone> my friend and my brother both been linux'in for years
13:11:30 <MonkeyDrone> but then again they ain't gamers
13:11:46 <MonkeyDrone> they both like their ps4, pffft, console plebs
14:02:01 <Samu> i have a save that is utterly slow
14:02:11 <Samu> wondering what could be done about it
14:02:53 <Alkel_U3> I can pathfind to a nearby pub very well, but I don't suppose that's helpfull now
14:03:35 <MonkeyDrone> i can pathfind to the bottom of a bottle very easily, but that isn't helpful as well i guess
14:03:48 <MonkeyDrone> Preacher season ended, excellent show
14:04:27 <Samu> oh gosh, too long to save crash
14:15:14 <Samu> it should be possible to upload 4 files to the forum :(
14:24:59 <Alberth> Samu: slow save due to AI doing too much work for saving can only be solved by fixing the AI
14:26:29 <Samu> er i mean the other pathfinder
14:26:39 <Samu> the ships are slowing too much
14:27:04 <Samu> only because they're lost
14:27:50 <Alberth> lost ships try to find a path every frame, and apparently fail every time, so they run the path finder until the limit
14:28:32 <Alberth> good way to get loads of useless cpu calculations
14:28:59 <Samu> it''s usually a large group of ships with the same orders, couldn't the pathfinder be improved here?
14:29:13 <MonkeyDrone> isn't it common practice to use buoys to avoid the ship getting lost
14:29:20 <MonkeyDrone> and less cpu usage
14:30:13 <Samu> instead of pathfinding for each individual ship?
14:30:40 <Alberth> pathfinding starts at a single starting point to a single end point
14:30:59 <Alberth> unless all ships are at exactly the same spot, that won't work :)
14:31:37 <Alberth> but the real killer is being lost
14:31:38 <Samu> trans AI is especially bad
14:32:01 <Samu> he masses more ships that get lost, a huge group of lost ships, like 300 lost ships having the same orders, lost in the same place
14:32:56 <Samu> well, i thought about pathfinding as a group, but no idea if that is feasible
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14:34:28 <Alberth> it can be done, but may cost more cpu time than doing each one individually
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14:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <Hiddenfunstuff> As far as i know, nvidia never had drivers that worked <-- funny to hear that, because of the past decade i only ever heard "don't use AMD, because their driver is worse than nvidia's"
15:17:55 <Flygon> At least AMD's drivers can run games over 5 years old.
15:19:12 <V453000> what I play old games regularly on my GTX980Ti
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16:13:59 <Argensis> So I have a 290x in my desktop and a 840m in my laptop. I've had far more issues with the 290x. 1. BSODs while running Flash with hardware video acceleration + full screen games together, from 13.4 to 14.6? before they fixed it. 2. Linux drivers are awful for it. 3. Perf issues in games that should really not be having perf issues (XCOM2)
16:14:41 <Argensis> So I'll more than likely be getting a nVidia card next time
16:18:09 <Argensis> Usually I feel bad abusing station spread. And then there's times like this: http://imgur.com/eUibmm3 (The train station didn't accept food until I built the truck stop two tiles away >_>)
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16:23:29 <Alberth> station placement window does tell you accepted cargoes :)
16:24:40 <Eddi|zuHause> did you notice that your trams are too small for your tracks?
16:33:57 <Argensis> IT does, but I'm too used to temperate climates and forgot to check for the others :p
16:35:05 <Argensis> Eddi|zuHause, You mean visually. Nope, but it's now in cannot be unseen territory
16:36:36 <V453000> makes me immediately more confident about my shit
16:39:00 <Argensis> Funnily enough, I was trying out zbase for the first time this game because the NUTS monorail looked jarring against the less sharp opengfx city :p
16:39:06 <Argensis> Now I've got the opposite problem, the eGRVTS (and can't remember which grf the long trams are from) trams look bad against the 32bpp tracks
16:39:46 <Argensis> Possibly, I do have HEQS loaded
16:47:30 <V453000> well, original TTD graphics be best
17:01:16 <supermop_> thinki have brio models on a hard drive somewhere
17:01:36 <supermop_> maybe will set those up to render overnight at work
17:02:08 <supermop_> work uses a different rendering plug in than my old laptop tho so lot of material work to do
17:02:56 <supermop_> V453000: you use vray for max?
17:08:02 <supermop_> but i dont need to do photoreal at this job
17:09:58 <V453000> well it's not like BRIX is photoreal
17:10:11 <V453000> vray simply has a lot of tools and options you can do with it
17:10:33 <V453000> and it works well kind of out of the box, you don't have to adjust insane amounts of shit, add GI passes etc to have an actually nice render
17:10:39 <V453000> where with mental ray it's a pain
17:12:30 <supermop_> been wanting to get into maxwell, i see a lot of other architects starting to use it
17:13:17 <V453000> maxwell is probably great
17:15:22 <V453000> but honestly, either of them will probably work once you get the hang of it
17:15:46 <V453000> blender's cycles are pretty damn good but I am not sure how compatible is it with architectural software and stuff
17:20:45 <supermop_> yeah as far as i know only a few really iconoclast arch guys use blender
17:21:09 <supermop_> there isn't that big of a culture of open source software in architecture
17:25:15 <supermop_> if you are lucky you can bill client for outsourcing rendering, if not either don't render, or make your interns do it for free with their old student versions
17:25:24 <V453000> well mainly blender with it's ideology to be different as possible from those filthy corporate tools probably won't work very well with importing their shit
17:25:32 <V453000> though I have to admit that it does import fbx pretty damn well
17:26:19 <V453000> but idk, if I was doing achviz again I would probably try blender
17:27:21 <supermop_> i think the standards have gotten decent recently, i dont have trouble with most software formats
17:27:32 <supermop_> except sketchup which is worthless
17:33:14 <V453000> the more I think about it the more I usually am undecided
17:33:36 <V453000> I have been using max and blender for roughly similar amount of time so my amount of experience is roughly the same
17:34:05 <V453000> I can't really tell which one is better, though max usually has all things covered, in blender you sometimes discover you simply can't do it unless you hack stuff
17:34:22 <V453000> if blender had added some trivial yet missing features, I would no doubt say it's better
17:35:00 <V453000> but shit like being able to switch between cameras for multiple rendering passes seem standard, yet they aren't apparently
17:35:27 <V453000> and then there is almost always some way how to replicate it in blender through some complex system of scene setup
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18:26:12 <supermop_> i seem to almost only get interior work so nothing that can easily get rendered to sit around as house set greeble
18:26:47 <supermop_> other than this back yard deck, which was designed to be so minimalist it would probably look fake in game
18:28:57 <supermop_> so the whole project would just look like flat grey rectangles in game
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19:26:26 <Samu> need 356 000 gold to buy all heroes at once in hots :p
19:26:53 <Samu> in 2 years i gathered 240k :(
19:30:00 <Alberth> so just one more year then
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19:56:10 <Wolf01> I purchase heroes when they go 2-4k, I gathered about 60k and I think I still have 36k
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20:28:52 <V453000> you must play it a lot
20:29:10 <V453000> I have played about 20-30 games max, and I felt like I am not getting anything
20:29:19 <V453000> even though I did all the daily quests
20:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause> daily quests are terrible, you feel like you miss out when you skip a day
20:32:55 <V453000> but I don't mind it tbh
20:33:50 <V453000> I'll play it again someday
20:33:58 <V453000> just to check out more heroes, I played like 5
20:34:02 <frosch123> challenge of the day: foundations
20:34:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be much healthier if you could stack up "daily" quests so you can do 5 in a row on the weekend or so
20:35:09 <V453000> I think you have 3 every day, maybe every week
20:35:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there could be a cap so people don't come back after half a year of inactivity and do hundreds
20:35:20 <frosch123> what do you mean, do you work monday to friday?
20:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, but i was speaking general-population-wise
20:36:38 <V453000> ok hots has daily quests
20:38:26 <V453000> but yeah I have to say this hero limit saved my time
20:38:49 <V453000> when I played dota/dota2/heroes of newerth, I would continue playing the game regularly until I tried everything
20:38:55 <V453000> I played hots for a few evenings
20:39:07 <V453000> partially because I didn't have that much time, but still
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20:55:44 <V453000> /me is flattered, Albert liked my work :>
20:58:46 <Alberth> but yep, I generally like your work :)
21:12:38 <frosch123> what? did we convert albert to factorio? :p
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21:21:11 <V453000> Albert is the art director of F
21:22:26 <frosch123> spanish albert instead of dutch albert
21:23:04 <frosch123> V453000: so, did you recruit him for BRIX ?
21:24:54 <frosch123> did factorio also copy the curve-speed anomaly from ottd?
21:25:13 <V453000> in some old versions the curves actually traveled slower than straight tiles by some tiny amount
21:25:20 <V453000> idk if it still exists, I don't think it does
21:27:08 <ElleKitty> I remember frosch123 name from somewhere...
21:27:42 <V453000> ofc, it's for his code on rainbow slugs
21:28:04 <V453000> eternal fame and glory
21:28:27 <ElleKitty> Well, I can think of something else that would give frosch123 eternal glory
21:28:49 <V453000> better than rainbow slugs? pfft
21:29:19 <frosch123> ElleKitty: i am not registered on any dating sites :p
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21:30:36 <ElleKitty> I overall like OTTD so thank you for all you were doing
21:30:42 <ElleKitty> I would like to contribute more, but...
21:30:57 <ElleKitty> I'm no good at coding =(
21:31:29 <ElleKitty> I'm only a digital visual artist
21:31:35 <V453000> ooooooooooooooooooooooooo
21:31:45 <V453000> that's like an unicorn nowadays around openttd XD
21:33:35 <ElleKitty> If there was 3D support, it would take some time, but it wouldnt be hard for me to build up models for most-anything that already exists in the gam
21:34:36 <V453000> frosch123: how retarded of an idea would it be to make openttd render in 3D while using the current map array?
21:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: why would that need 3d support?
21:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: people have been using 3d programs to model sprites for years now
21:35:22 <frosch123> V453000: what do you mean by that?
21:35:34 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: yeah and after years nobody made a proper base set :D
21:35:37 <frosch123> do you mean removing all support for newgrf with sprites?
21:35:39 <ST2> it's already 3D - there's X and Y... the Z you manage with the distance of the screen :D
21:35:40 <Alberth> V453000: newgrf dynamic graphics breaks OpenGL, mostly
21:36:04 <V453000> frosch123: switching to isometric view should be possible then?
21:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: what you say makes no sense
21:36:37 <V453000> or idk the newgrf data could be placed on planes as texture XD XD
21:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that's the same thing as having no 3d support at all
21:37:14 <V453000> well if you are able to switch to it?
21:37:25 <Alberth> newgrf data is not the problem, the newgrf logic is the problem
21:37:35 <frosch123> i still have no idea what you mean with rendering in 3d
21:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if you use a 3d engine to only display flat objects, you're still having not a single feature more than the current 2d engine
21:37:43 <frosch123> do you mean freeform rotation and zooming?
21:38:22 <frosch123> doesn't that make the scales even more awkward? :p
21:38:36 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the answer to that is the same as before. you can do that, but you have to scrap all existing newgrfs
21:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and the existing base graphics
21:39:04 <ElleKitty> I will wait for the chatter to subside a bit before I share my thoughts on this >.<
21:39:20 <frosch123> V453000: i guess compile ottd as dedicated server, and then add what is missing :p
21:39:52 <V453000> well I am fine with sprites, but full 3D would be interesting for sure
21:40:02 <V453000> apparently it is much harder than I thought
21:40:09 <V453000> [per expectations XD]
21:40:14 <frosch123> V453000: do you know any 3d game where you can zoom-out?
21:40:22 <frosch123> as in: see really a lot of stuff
21:40:43 <V453000> but yeah I get your point
21:40:48 <ElleKitty> I get your point too
21:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd suggest train fever, but it has rather limited map size
21:41:06 <frosch123> back in the days, when i made halflife maps, you add to run some aggressive level compression/optimiser tool, to make the map remotely playable
21:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> usually you add some kind of fog to limit the field of view
21:42:36 <frosch123> yep, you essentially replace the screne with something different
21:42:45 <Fahrradkette> If I wanted to create a scenario using gtfs data, would I use the gamescript/AI engine or does the world generation algo take parameters?
21:43:08 <ElleKitty> Keep in mind that the models for this game would still be rather simple. A train engine could easily be a textured box, and still look good from the game's default zoom. Computers are only getting stronger, too.
21:43:51 <frosch123> Fahrradkette: check the forums, i recall at least something that placed towns based on geo data
21:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there was a patch to use geo data, but it should be possible to do via script now
21:45:17 <Alberth> I still ponder on a way to make town names geo-ish aware :)
21:45:20 <V453000> I doubt people will build 3000 train networks in that game tbh Alberth
21:45:24 <frosch123> ElleKitty: already the stake van fails with box graphics
21:45:37 <ElleKitty> A what with van graphics?
21:45:43 <V453000> frosch123: I went through foundations and I seem to be getting 15 unique bits, that possible?
21:46:14 <Alberth> V453000: you add fancy graphics to the problem, which means less time for computing
21:46:33 <V453000> let gpu do tha lifting!
21:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but you can do the fancy graphics in a thread!
21:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> threads solve all the problems.
21:47:05 <ElleKitty> I could build a stake van with 6 polys, and it would look comparable to the existing 2d one
21:47:29 <Alberth> you can, but fancy graphics and fancy large scale rolling stock management don't go well together
21:47:59 <frosch123> Alberth: the funny things about graphics is that you can actually multithread them
21:48:12 <ElleKitty> frosch123 Sounds good, let's do it!
21:48:14 <frosch123> i.e. all the noobs are happy because ottd uses all cores
21:48:22 <frosch123> even though the game logic continues to run on only one
21:48:27 <Alberth> I'd push it to the gpu as much as possible :p
21:48:37 <glx> it's easy to use all the cores ;)
21:48:53 <V453000> can't find any more unique ones, you got any ideas about something else?
21:49:11 <Alberth> could we store newgrf relevant state into a few matrices? :p
21:49:34 <frosch123> V453000: you are missing the inclined founations
21:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: put the action2 resolving in a shader?
21:49:49 <Alberth> generate a few shaders from newgrf files
21:49:59 <frosch123> those which turn a single-corner-raised-slope into a uphill slope
21:50:01 <V453000> frosch123: are they in base_extra?
21:50:52 <frosch123> do you know what i mean? or do you need a screenshot?
21:51:18 <V453000> in other words I think I do understand the words you say but I don't see it
21:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think "a few matrices" doesn't suffice, at the latest with 40+/60+ variables you get into trouble
21:52:14 <ElleKitty> frosch123 If we had 3D, we could do all of these plateaus in 1-2 models... just saying
21:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: so you end up providing a copy of the whole map anyway
21:52:27 <V453000> frosch123: or just tell me which sprite ID has the things I didn't include
21:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: but the "make these plateaus from 1-2 models" is exactly the part that V453000 is failing right now
21:53:36 <V453000> I think everything from extra is in this picture, and the base should all be included in the bits
21:53:59 <V453000> it's the exact opposite, I am just making it precisely unlike zbase
21:54:06 <V453000> I am not even using 3D for this
21:54:28 <V453000> cuz zbase is what, trash. Amen
21:54:33 <ElleKitty> Eddi|zuHause If it was 3D, you would only need a couple of models, and then they would be arranged in interesting ways
21:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: but still, that's already what was done. just it has this intermediate step of producing the combined pictures
21:56:50 <V453000> flat at the bottom, uphill
21:57:35 <ElleKitty> Eddi|zuHause Yes, but I'm talking about how if we had a 3D engine, we wouldnt need to burn so many sprites by hand.
21:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: but it was never done "by hand" in the first place. at most it was copy-pasted a bunch of times
21:58:34 <V453000> probably just start trying to implement it ElleKitty :) if the concept has a good goal and seems to make sense, people will join and help
21:59:07 <ElleKitty> I give up... I waited over two weeks to have a serious talk to frosch123 about this, and now I have everyone else (except frosch) jumping at me telling me how it cant be done and why it cant be done.
21:59:18 <V453000> but if there is something I learned at openttd, if you want something to happen, never rely on others, and "I am not able to at the moment" can be changed :P
21:59:53 <V453000> well it's not like they are against it, it's probably really just complex as fuck
22:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: i didn't say "it can't be done", just i think your expectation of the level of improvement is flawed
22:01:39 <ElleKitty> Nono, it's okay, I'm giving up on this. Nevermind that you didnt care what I had to say, you had to shut me down before I even talked.
22:02:04 <frosch123> ElleKitty: keep calm, and play factorio :)
22:02:12 <ElleKitty> I dont want to play Factorio.
22:03:06 <frosch123> it has many of the core gameplay aspects that ottd has as well
22:03:26 <ElleKitty> It's frustrating that I was recommended to talk to you... And I waited two weeks for a chance... And as soon as I opened my mouth, I was swamped from all sides by whiteknights instead of just talking it out with you without any pressure
22:03:58 <V453000> well that escalated quickly
22:04:15 <ElleKitty> V453000 I know, thats what I'm saying
22:04:21 <V453000> I would say patience is the most important aspect to pushing such a huge task though
22:05:44 <ElleKitty> V453000 Once you start the task, yes, it will take some time. I was shut down before I could really speak my mind. I dont see where patience play a role here. Should I be patient and wait for the time of day or year when the whiteknights arent there to shut me down?
22:06:09 <ElleKitty> Ugh! I didnt need this. And the nicer of you all didnt need this either -_-
22:06:11 <V453000> jesus fucking christ, don't have time for this argumetn sorry
22:08:34 <Alberth> ElleKitty: if you want to ask something specific to a specific person, highlight him/her and ask the question
22:09:00 <ElleKitty> Alberth I tried, but Eddi answered every single question that I aimed at frosch
22:10:42 <Alberth> others may respond, but just wait until the adressed person reacts. People don't wait here until someone asks a question, they tend to do other things, and look at the irc every now and then only
22:11:07 <Alberth> unless your question was fully answered of course
22:11:30 <Alberth> if not, you may want to indicate what you want to know more
22:11:41 <V453000> or if you want really personal environment, personal messages are a nice thing too
22:11:56 <ElleKitty> No, I still have as many questions as I did at the start, none were answered yet.
22:12:03 <Alberth> but generally you get quicker and better answers here
22:12:54 <Alberth> ElleKitty: "if we had X, then ..." is not a question
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22:15:56 <ElleKitty> I didnt even get to the questions yet. I wasnt going to ask serious questions in mid of such a chaos. They wouldnt be answered seriously and analytically.
22:16:20 <V453000> I think chaos is now silent so you can start again? :)
22:16:27 <V453000> we can just ban Eddi|zuHause :>
22:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you expect a discussion to go when you don't ask the actual questions to guide the discussion? of course it's going to be "chaos" from your point of view then...
22:24:30 <ElleKitty> Eddi|zuHause Counter-question: How were you able to "answer" each of my lines directed at frosch, if I didnt ask anything? =(
22:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: i am level 3 psychic, i can know (some) questions before they are asked.
22:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: also, frosch123 is free to chime in if my answer is bullshit
22:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: but i think your strategy of waiting for the discussion to magically swing your way to have an opportunity is wrong, you need to enforce your opportunities if you want to get anywhere
22:28:17 <Samu> 19*10000 + 16*7000 + 12*4000 + 6*2000 = total gold needed to buy all heroes
22:28:48 <glx> I think nobody forces you to buy all heroes
22:28:54 <ElleKitty> Eddi|zuHause I got told earlier that patience is a virtue. Well I'm the one who waited two weeks, and you're the one who couldnt wait to see how the conversation goes >.<
22:29:24 <Samu> 362k gold, not 356k, i was wrong
22:29:35 <V453000> and why did you wait? :D
22:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> ElleKitty: the "patience" part was about waiting for an answer to your question, not about waiting for an opportunity to ask the question
22:30:49 <Fahrradkette> can the "founding towns algo" place towns on top of existing infrastructure like rails/roads?
22:31:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Fahrradkette: a town will claim existing roads nearby
22:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Fahrradkette: the tile where you place the town might need to be cleared first
22:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Fahrradkette: not sure about that
22:32:05 <Fahrradkette> so I only need 1 tile?
22:32:18 <Fahrradkette> guess got to try it out
22:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, founding the town needs only one tile (where the town name will be)
22:32:47 <Eddi|zuHause> everything else spreads from that tile, and will honour existing stuff there
22:33:12 <Fahrradkette> Is it also possible to assign tiles to towns? like tile ownership
22:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> empty tiles have no owners
22:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> everything else will be owned by the town that places it
22:34:17 <Fahrradkette> so the grass outside a town doesn't have an owner?
22:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause> every town is free to grow into empty tiles
22:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't draw a line "this far and no further"
22:35:29 <Fahrradkette> so I can't make a "federal" town which basically builds the border lines in between towns?
22:36:27 <Fahrradkette> thanks anyways for the clarification, I appreciate it
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23:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause> AI can found towns just like a player can, with lots of money
23:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but a gamescript can also do everything an AI could
23:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> with fewer restrictions
23:03:28 <Fahrradkette> ah, good to hear
23:05:27 <Fahrradkette> time is: dive into the gamescript api
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