IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-08-02
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09:53:14 <V453000> you found them foundations?
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10:43:17 <MonkeyDrone> o/ Good morning, 3rd interview nailed. Things are looking good :D
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10:43:35 <MonkeyDrone> One last thing to be done for the job, a medical checkup and i'm in the green, awww yyiiiss
10:45:17 <MonkeyDrone> well the 0.0.1 trello list go longer V453000 xD
10:45:44 <V453000> more but smaller tasks
10:45:58 <V453000> as long as done list is growing, shit is good
10:46:27 <MonkeyDrone> hehe, that is true indeed
10:46:36 <MonkeyDrone> improvements all around
10:47:03 <V453000> trees are probably the biggest task now
10:47:09 <V453000> and after that vehicles
10:47:22 <V453000> foundations are actually halfway done
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11:18:27 <V453000> I wonder if any general ever deployed a penis formation
11:40:03 <MonkeyDrone> sweet, coloring trees right?
11:41:14 <MonkeyDrone> lol le penis formation, epic
11:41:48 <MonkeyDrone> people have way too much creativity time :P
13:20:02 <V453000> eh mainly the new tree models
13:20:12 <V453000> atm arctic and tropic trees look like boxes
13:20:18 <V453000> for toyland that's ok
13:20:28 <V453000> but for at least arctic I would like to make some nice bushes and shit
13:39:58 <argoneus> how are train friends doing
13:57:30 <MonkeyDrone> watching Mr.Right, good movie
14:58:00 <V453000> after effects project: 35.3 MB ... after effects project zipped: 722 kB
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15:18:09 <Alberth> nah, just loads of almost duplicate files :)
15:19:37 <Alberth> ok, one file with loads of almost duplicate sections :)
15:21:34 <Alberth> could be duplicate for a good reason, eg for fast access, but also very possible, just being too lazy to make an efficient layout and/or clean up shit before save
15:22:12 <Alberth> or shit reasons like "let's store everything in xml"
15:26:21 <Alberth> yep, for maximal useless storage requirements :)
15:26:52 <V453000> if you saw how much memory Ae is using you would probably continue with some reasonable arguments how shit it is ;P
15:31:14 <V453000> well 50GB piling up on your hard drive as "cache" or "scratch disk" is common, for BRIX my project takes 18GB RAM to load XD
15:37:47 <MonkeyDrone> ......damn, running some epic TBs of SSDs?
15:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> BUT! XML IS HUMAN READABLE!
15:40:00 <MonkeyDrone> XML is for hoomans
15:40:06 <MonkeyDrone> pro humans do assembly
15:40:24 <V453000> nah I just clean the cache often
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15:45:13 <Alberth> MonkeyDrone: actually, XML is designed for machine-machine communication
15:46:30 <MonkeyDrone> Alberth, neat bit of information
15:46:57 <Alberth> it's in the original XML definition :)
15:47:16 <MonkeyDrone> hehe, well i have never played with xml so completely inthe dark with it
15:48:34 <Alberth> try writing a xslt transformation, and you're cured forever from thinking writing code in xml is a good idea :p
15:48:58 <Alberth> xslt == xml to xml rewriting
15:49:34 <Alberth> so you have 3 xml languages at the same time: input xml language, output xml language, and the xslt transformation language for defining how input goes to output
15:52:07 <MonkeyDrone> sounds like a lot of fun Alberth :D
15:52:56 <Alberth> nah, xslt is much better than fun :p
15:53:41 <Xaroth|Work> it's somewhere in one of the nine layers of hell
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16:08:29 <MonkeyDrone> grrr at times like these i wish i was using linux
16:08:58 <MonkeyDrone> so much easier to find text inside thousands of text based files with a simple grep command
16:09:17 <Xaroth|Work> windows can also search in files
16:10:34 <Alberth> you can't beat "ag some_text" :)
16:11:37 <MonkeyDrone> how do i get ag o.o
16:15:26 <Alberth> package is the_silver_searcher-0.31.0-1.fc23.x86_64 here
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16:15:51 <Alberth> ack is pretty much the same though, and works well too
16:16:25 <Alberth> likely your packages have similar names
16:18:30 <Alberth> package name is ack.noarch a Perl script iirc
16:42:47 <Alkel_U3> MonkeyDrone: simmilarly I got used to Linux utilities so I just install cygwin where I have say on what can be installed
16:43:12 <Alkel_U3> if it doesn't run linux already :-)
16:43:52 <MonkeyDrone> one day i will switch to linux, one day ;p
16:47:03 <Wolf01> Stupid bot, I had to restart it because it failed to identify and tried to change nick back (failing) and identify the random nick 23424 times
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16:59:53 <ElleKitty> *chirps a happy little mew at MonkeyDrone!*
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17:02:39 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, hello hello
17:02:51 <MonkeyDronez> how are you doing ElleKitty ? :D
17:03:26 <ElleKitty> Did your shadow still remain?
17:09:08 <ElleKitty> Oh there goes the shadow. You can take over now!!
17:10:15 <ElleKitty> ...when ya notice it.
17:11:13 <MonkeyDronez> looks like someone restarted my pc at home >.<
17:11:23 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, been playing DF, that game is HARD
17:12:02 <ElleKitty> Ooooh. Well, while other hard games have a learning cliff, DF comes with a learning overhang, so they say.
17:12:32 <ElleKitty> When other difficult games have nightmares at night, those nightmares are about DF
17:12:32 <Xaroth|Work> the overhang of DF makes EVE's learning curve look like an ant hill...
17:12:53 <MonkeyDronez> DF is a pain in the ass is all
17:12:59 <MonkeyDronez> damn dwarves, so hard to work with
17:13:31 <Alkel_U3> I am very happy to have talked you into it MonkeyDronez >:-)
17:13:59 <MonkeyDronez> Alkel_U3, ElleKitty is the one who got me pumped up for DF :P
17:14:00 <ElleKitty> As someone once said, "DF is a little bit like Sims, except instead of Sims you got a horde of manic-depressive alcoholic dwarves, and everything is trying to kill them, including the dwarves"
17:14:13 <MonkeyDronez> all that time sink into only hating dwarves and still going with it
17:14:19 <Alkel_U3> it always feels refreshing to see the frustration of another newbie :P
17:14:39 <Alkel_U3> ElleKitty: then, hi five :D
17:15:05 <ElleKitty> Alkel_U3 I told MonkeyDronez to what levels the DF simulates. I also gave MonkeyDronez the required reading for any learning DF played, the Boatmurdered, but I dont know if he read that yet.
17:15:26 <Alkel_U3> Boatmurdered is pure gold
17:15:36 <MonkeyDronez> have not had time to read
17:15:42 <MonkeyDronez> have been super busy with dwarves :P
17:17:15 <ElleKitty> And I told him what you can DO in the game by just using its raw mechanics, which another game would never allow. Such as, one guy invented a trap where 50 bunnies are released at the enemies, and those 50 bunnies nibble and nibble and nibble until the enemies collapse from raw pain. Sometimes bunnies would nibble for months. And someone found this slow, so they improved the design by setting bunnies on fire upon release.
17:18:03 <Alkel_U3> I heard about the fiery version :-)
17:18:17 <ElleKitty> I saw the thread where both were outlined, yes.
17:18:43 <ElleKitty> Sadly, Planepack was recently fixed... Starting with .40 or 0.42
17:19:08 <Alkel_U3> oh, that gave me an idea for the minecart grapeshot device. I could fill it up with coal instead of pitchblende and set it on fire before shooting
17:19:25 <ElleKitty> My gods, dwarves will bend the universe to make that one very special sock of their live... Or go mad trying.
17:19:27 <MonkeyDronez> you guys are insane :P
17:20:21 <ElleKitty> Alkel_U3 It doesnt have the reusability until you can reload the coal into the cart. You could even reset the cart using the rollers, but you couldnt rightly put the burning coal back in
17:21:10 <Alkel_U3> ElleKitty: if I have enough coal I don't need to - the burning coal may as well stay where the goblins are :-)
17:21:19 <ElleKitty> You COULD load the cart with serrated glass blades before launching the cart at the foes.
17:21:43 <Alkel_U3> or put it out - it takes a while to burn, no?
17:21:53 <Alkel_U3> yeah, that's also possibility
17:22:15 <ElleKitty> It still doesnt scale well. Goblins are infinite, which is good when you want to mine goblinite, but eventually you'll run out of burning coal to fire, plus the coal on the ground will simply eat at your fps.
17:22:58 <Alkel_U3> I didn't say it would be practical - I just want to try it :D
17:23:07 <MonkeyDronez> howm uch fps loss are we talking
17:23:26 <ElleKitty> I personally dont like the goblin attacks very much. They're fun and all, but one single part turns me off; when the battlefield later needs to be cleaned up. Oh gods.
17:23:57 <Alkel_U3> blood, guts and vomit everywhere :-)
17:24:00 <ElleKitty> And then later when I want to smelt goblinite ore, I cant pick it out from the other iron stuff that I actually personally made and want to keep
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17:25:12 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDronez, DF combat is INCREDIBLY brutal. Both in Fort more and Adv mode. Just... if you do the Adv mode sometime... and get someone stunned enough that you get a guaranteed hit on them... Punch them across their teeth, and watch what happens.
17:25:25 <ElleKitty> Hint: Exactly what you'd expect.
17:25:33 <MonkeyDronez> i'm stilli n Fort mode
17:25:51 <ElleKitty> What was the size of your embark anyway?
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17:26:44 <MonkeyDronez> starter embark setup
17:26:48 <ElleKitty> I've been playing micro forts a lot (those are 1x1 embarks) because fps, and because everything fits into one screen without scrolling, but you probably started with the recommended 4x4
17:27:10 <ElleKitty> *waves hello to frosch123*
17:27:44 <ElleKitty> Where did you embark anyway? Like, whats in your fort area? Desert? Forest? Mountain? Do you have a river?
17:27:55 <MonkeyDronez> i've no idea whats 1x1 or 4x4 embark
17:28:12 <ElleKitty> Maybe he has one of those suicide cliffs, Alkel_U3?
17:28:54 <Alkel_U3> ElleKitty: I've no idea, but most importantky, it's not evil :-)
17:29:45 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDronez, 1x1 is the smallest unit on the embark screen. Every 1x1 can hold exactly one biome in it. If you play a larger field, such as 4x4, then your playable area may end up containing multiple biomes in it. It is useful having multiple biomes, because they all come with their different goodies.
17:29:56 <ElleKitty> frosch123: I'm Temmi
17:30:12 <frosch123> temmi from undertale?
17:30:13 <MonkeyDronez> yeah i'm on 1x1 i guess, i've only one biome
17:30:33 <frosch123> or was that spelled differently?
17:30:34 <ElleKitty> Because Temmies go "hoi, im temie"
17:30:43 <ElleKitty> They spell it differently every time
17:31:25 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDronez, do you have to scroll the map in the compass directions to see all of it?
17:31:40 <MonkeyDronez> very little of it
17:32:03 <MonkeyDronez> i'm usually at the edge, can't dig towards one side
17:33:37 <ElleKitty> Every world map tile, is 16x16 region tiles
17:33:54 <ElleKitty> Every region map tile, is 48x48 tiles once you enter the game and start playing
17:34:25 <Alkel_U3> well, I'm gonna take the dwarves' example and head out for beer. Have fun. Loads of it :P
17:34:25 <ElleKitty> So a 4x4 embark would be 192x192 tiles that you could count while playing the game
17:34:56 <ElleKitty> Have a lot of fun, Alkel_U3! And dont forget to admire the furniture!
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17:35:53 <MonkeyDronez> Alkel_U3, enjoy!
17:36:18 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDronez You could still tell what you got on map =P . I almost even asked you to stream it so we could watch
17:36:19 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, one step at a time :D I still need to get the basic hang of the game. Still trying to learn how to work the workshops
17:36:23 <Alkel_U3> ElleKitty: the tavern is aboveground outside and the furniture is... -furniture- at most. Fun will be easy, it's on top of fortifications, so you could say it's a cliff :D
17:37:03 <Alkel_U3> I hope nothing makes me dodge down from it
17:39:59 <MonkeyDronez> Alkel_U3, off to the tavern with ya!
17:42:35 <ElleKitty> How DF patch notes look (can confirm personally)
17:42:49 <ElleKitty> -Babies don't start strapped with a knife. -Stopped vampires from pinning their crimes on babies and children.-Stopped zombie cats from adopting dwarves.-Stopped ghosts from maintaining secret identities.-Stopped dwarves from trying to clean their own missing or internal body parts.-Made strangulation take less time.-Demons masquerading as gods will try a little harder.-Adjusted value of bees
17:44:03 <MonkeyDronez> some of those make a lot of sense :P
17:44:12 <MonkeyDronez> game is definitely not for the weak of heart
17:45:15 <MonkeyDronez> lol, nice to have artistic fans for the game eh xd
17:47:15 <ElleKitty> Actually there is a lot of DF art. People even manage to draw the procedurally generated monsters up. Some of them are... things of nightmares.
17:49:16 <ElleKitty> Here... Take a look at this masterpiece. From an actual item in the game.
17:51:25 <ElleKitty> In other words, welcome to the DF community, MonkeyDronez
17:53:08 <MonkeyDronez> that's a real thing ingame?
17:53:59 <ElleKitty> In someone's game, yes. There are no static artefacts in the game.
17:55:32 <ElleKitty> The text is a screenshot from the game. The picture was made by a drawfag
17:56:27 <MonkeyDronez> so the game generates random stuff too x.x
17:56:58 <ElleKitty> Other than the base item and unit types, everything is randomly generated
17:59:41 <MonkeyDronez> boggles my mind on how you even program this madness x.x
18:00:36 <ElleKitty> "the dwarf fortress bug tracker remains a source of infinite joy
18:03:14 <MonkeyDronez> lol @ pregnant drinkers, brilliant
18:03:24 <MonkeyDronez> poor country side and burning things :D
18:05:30 <ElleKitty> Spilt a lava across the entire playable map, turned the map into charcoal, no survivors
18:07:41 <ElleKitty> Aaaah! But nevermind that, I found the one that I wanted to share in the first place.
18:11:13 <ElleKitty> I think this happens partly because the flowers are so tiny (tiny contact area, means very sharp) and because their material properties are not initiated (so maybe they assume default vallues for, i dont know, rock) and their falling speed might not be initialised either, so they fall at arbitrary speed drawn from garbage data from memory
18:11:52 <MonkeyDronez> heh, so they just wern't programmed properly :D
18:12:07 <MonkeyDronez> well with 10 billion things in the game, you miss a thing or a few :P
18:13:37 <ElleKitty> This probably happened when they were still new. Maybe it's been fixed already, maybe not. The game is in alpha stage, so it's a bit of a brutal free-for-all in there.
18:14:10 <MonkeyDronez> it's been in alpha for 10 years, hasn't it
18:17:15 <MonkeyDronez> aye, i hear 10 year anniversary coming up
18:17:19 <MonkeyDronez> everyone's nerding out ;D
18:17:34 <MonkeyDronez> well the game is still 43% complete apparently x.x
18:17:38 <MonkeyDronez> how big can that gaem get x.x
18:18:25 <ElleKitty> I think that DF is a type of the game which is very worthwhile playing while it's still in alpha. There will be many little things that will be added and removed, and the experience will change.
18:20:00 <MonkeyDronez> aye, i can imagine things keep changing overtime, affecting gameplay differently every major update
18:20:11 <ElleKitty> I dont know what those features will be, but I remember Minecraft. Booster Carts for giving ultra speed to minecarts; boativators, which serve as eelevators both up and down; the east/south rule, which caused you to be set on fire if you touch certain corners. The famous (0,0) chunk which spawned enormous amounts of monsters. Also the mob grinders, and Thomas the Sheep god.
18:20:27 <ElleKitty> Whoever didnt already experience these during the developement, has missed out
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18:22:36 <MonkeyDronez> :P well it's a long jounrney and plenty more to play with in time :D
18:28:05 <ElleKitty> The drawing is accurate: The book is cruel and concise.
18:29:20 <MonkeyDronez> soon i shall bask in the glory of fixing my neigbors laptop so no DF tonight :(
18:29:35 <ElleKitty> What do you need to fix?
18:29:56 <Alberth> windows, what else? :p
18:30:12 <MonkeyDronez> lol Alberth, why you hating on windows
18:30:38 <MonkeyDronez> Alberth, although their wifi driver keeps crashing from what I hear. *hear*. They are complete pc plebs, so I will know more when I have a look at it.
18:30:41 <Alberth> it's not hate, the OS is just utterly useless to me
18:30:53 <MonkeyDronez> Got a message from my sister that the neighbor's 'sound' port isn't working
18:31:05 <MonkeyDronez> and asking me on whatsapp how she can fix it
18:31:35 <MonkeyDronez> like I can do some voodoo shit sitting 30 KM away from the laptop :D
18:31:37 <ElleKitty> If you need to replace the Windows, remember to upgrade it
18:31:50 <MonkeyDronez> it's windows 8, i'll upgrade it to Windows 10 :P
18:32:13 <Sacro> If you can find somewhere to buy it
18:32:16 <ElleKitty> Fuck that shit. Dont install Win10. Also, it's not an upgrade but a downgrade.
18:32:36 <MonkeyDronez> usually i get paid a few bucks to fix neighbors stuff, but he had twins a few months ago and he's always strapped for cash, doubt gonna get paid anything this time, yarrrr
18:32:54 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, pfffft, hater :P I love W10, works brilliantly :D
18:33:27 <MonkeyDronez> Sacro, you can still upgrade for free from W8 to W10 by enabling assistive technologies in windows :P once that is done i can disable assitive tech support :P
18:33:44 <MonkeyDronez> it's too late for spyware, the NSA has everything on all of us :P
18:33:52 <ElleKitty> Win10 installed a rootkit on my friend's computer. I knew it would, so I told him not to do it, he said "What do you know" and installed it anyway. Now he cant install anything other than Win10 because of the rootkit.
18:34:19 <MonkeyDronez> how did he get a rootkit installed through windows 10
18:34:41 <Sacro> It's probably as easy as in most other versions of Windows
18:34:47 <MonkeyDronez> i've been throwing everyone under the W10 bus for a while now, never had any issues
18:34:47 <ElleKitty> The friend later came to his senses and tried to install Windows 7 again. He couldnt, was directed to install Win10 instead
18:35:25 <Sacro> Probably just needs to delete all partitions on the HDD
18:35:51 <MonkeyDronez> Sacro, exactly, just needed to wipe out the windows partition and the secondary partition it creates where it stores all the information related to the OS
18:35:52 <ElleKitty> Ugh, dont advise others to install Win10. You think you're doing them a favour, and are probably feeling good about it, but you really really arent.
18:36:10 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, perspective and subjective :D
18:36:13 <ElleKitty> Sacro: And clear the BIOS/UEFI cache, I assume
18:36:20 <MonkeyDronez> we two sit on the opposite sides of this continnum scale
18:36:46 <Sacro> ElleKitty: doubt BIOS/UEFI changes are required
18:37:19 <Sacro> ElleKitty: what? keep them on 7/8.1?
18:37:28 <Sacro> And have them eventually run out of support?
18:38:03 <ElleKitty> You can always switch before support runs out, cant you? Maybe even after it runs out.
18:38:11 <MonkeyDronez> lol, i would never keep them on W8, W8 is not a user friendly experience
18:38:28 <Sacro> Yeah but why not switch sooner, like whilst it's free?
18:38:29 <MonkeyDronez> I can adapt easily but to normal people, w8 interface would be a complete nightmare
18:38:53 <MonkeyDronez> and I don't see the big fuss about W7, hehe, W10 is W7, with better looking GUI :P
18:39:09 <MonkeyDronez> double click file and it installs things, that's all that is to me, which is windows ;D
18:39:19 <Sacro> I liked 8, the lack of a start menu was bliss
18:39:26 <Sacro> And I like 10, because I don't need to use the start menu
18:39:37 <ElleKitty> Sacro Cause it wants to install a rootkit/bootsector to my machine, and it wants to keep track of what I installed and wants to ask online if I'm supposed to have it or not
18:39:47 <MonkeyDronez> Sacro, I got used to it pretty fast, but W8 made it not easy for people who didn't know the basic options windows has
18:39:50 <ElleKitty> And I, in turn, dont want it to
18:40:05 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, sounds like you bought a locked in system.
18:40:42 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, I've heard of laptops locked into an OS, never looked it up myself. Read only 1 article in passing, maybe it is true.
18:41:06 <glx> Sacro: "real" start menu is on right click ;)
18:41:21 <MonkeyDronez> well AOL is still making millions off dialup internet, i say they win :P
18:41:29 <MonkeyDronez> real start menu is Ctrl+x :D
18:44:27 <ElleKitty> I didnt buy a locked system. My friend is the one who had Win7, then Win10, then couldnt go back to Win7 anymore. When I was buying my machine, they asked me "Do you want Win8 installed, or FreeBSD?" and I said "FreeBSD" and he said "Okay, so Wind... FreeBSD? Are you sure?" "Yeah." "But no one uses FreeBSD." "Yeah, but no matter which you give me, I'm upgrading to Windows 7. It would be a waste to replace Windows 8 when someone has
18:44:27 <ElleKitty> been babysitting the install for two hours." So I was given FreeBSD, I tried it out a bit when I came home, but really ended up replacing it with Win7.
18:44:45 <MonkeyDronez> hmmm i wrote a chapter of a short story i'm writing, i rewrote it a while ago, its a horrible rewrite, time to rewrite it ;D
18:45:18 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, so you have that Windows 8 key? :D
18:45:29 <MonkeyDronez> sitting there doing nothing :D
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18:46:06 <ElleKitty> What would I do with a Win8 key?
18:46:57 <MonkeyDronez> ah, wait a minute
18:47:05 <MonkeyDronez> was the price of hte laptop same with W8 and without it?
18:47:32 <ElleKitty> I cant remember asking.
18:48:06 <MonkeyDronez> hmmm, cause usually laptops with pre-windows installed have the serial key programmed into the BIOS / UEFI system itself
18:48:11 <MonkeyDronez> you can use some programs to read
18:48:35 <ElleKitty> How does this affect the price?
18:48:51 <glx> you pay for preinstalled windows usually
18:48:55 <MonkeyDronez> wihtout windows, you coudl save about $80
18:48:58 <MonkeyDronez> on the final price
18:49:17 <MonkeyDronez> or $60, something around that,
18:49:26 <MonkeyDronez> laptops without windows are cheaper :D
18:49:48 <ElleKitty> Well, I got a FreeBSD, plus just the essential hardware. I only bought what goes into the tower; I even kept the scratched and yellowed tower frame from 2003
18:50:22 <MonkeyDronez> there is a dirt cheap $300 laptop here, 5th gen i3, 500gb hdd,4gb ram. I don't know if it's worth buying or i should put in some more $$$ and get a 6th gen with ssd :D
18:50:50 <MonkeyDronez> ElleKitty, ah, i thought you were talking laptop
18:51:00 <MonkeyDronez> well nevermind me then :D
18:51:51 <MonkeyDronez> i gotta bail for now, brb 15 mins
18:51:57 <MonkeyDronez> home i'm cominggg
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18:55:09 <ElleKitty> Hello ^_^ and welcome back
18:57:59 <Alberth> we do have a kitty today
18:58:44 <Samu> 4gb ram too low for today standards
18:59:15 <Alberth> sort of a cat, isn't it?
19:00:05 <ElleKitty> Samu 4GB has need too low for some 5-6 years already, and 16GB was too much, and still is (unless you are into graphics rendering or servers)
19:00:41 <Alberth> 16GB is a pretyy nice disk cache :)
19:00:58 <Samu> my rig got 16 gb, my parents got 12 gb
19:03:50 <ElleKitty> I'm on 8GB now. When I start reaching the limit, it's my healthy reminder that I'm using too much. And I'm the person who uses 3ds Max, Photoshop, 3D Coat, up to three media players, supporting toftware, server, and Firefox. Firefox has 200+ tab at any time, 600+ tabs when I didnt clean them in a while.
19:04:17 <ElleKitty> I say that 8GB proved rather enough, even when all of these things enabled at the same time.
19:05:09 <Alberth> likely it's enough indeed
19:07:23 <ElleKitty> 16GB is only needed if you want to set yourself for the next 10 years or something, or if you have money to burn. You realistically need 16GB only if you have some uncommon needs for it.
19:10:24 <V453000> I have 24 and I am running into constant issues whenever I launch max or After Effects
19:10:33 <V453000> 6GB Vram ain't enough either for blender
19:10:58 <V453000> how much ram do games require nowadays?
19:13:17 <ElleKitty> V453000, no matter how MUCH RAM you have, you're going to find a way how to waste it. Such as doing just one more "Subdivision" or "Turbosmooth" level (in blender and max). As a Max user, I can say that that amount isnt needed if you work efficiently.
19:14:02 <ElleKitty> I could waste you unlimited gigabytes of RAM by adding more Turbosmooth subdivs, because the RAM requirement grows exponentially, but even more, I like my scenes to be fficient
19:14:49 <V453000> well my scene has 20M polys
19:14:58 <V453000> add textures and you are fucked
19:15:22 <V453000> "X is not needed" is heavily related to your workflow and what you are doing
19:17:14 <ElleKitty> Alright, well tell me what makes your scene 20M polys. If it's particles or subdivisions, I call inefficiency.
19:17:58 <ElleKitty> I'd have to see before I knew for sure
19:19:38 <ElleKitty> Of course, of course.
19:20:05 <V453000> on another note, it's the beauty of sprites
19:20:11 <V453000> only result matters, not efficiency
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19:22:40 <ElleKitty> Efficiency matters for your own personal growth as an artist. If you're inefficient with your models, then you still need to learn how to make them optimal. Basically...
19:23:06 <V453000> I am not saying it is completely useless, nor am I making retardedly inefficient models
19:23:25 <supermop> V453000: don't worry about wasting the computer's time
19:23:31 <ElleKitty> I used to make models... then slap textures onto them... and they would look good enough. But I decided that this was wrong from me, because textures hide any flaws in models. So now I make a good model, and when I'm pleased how it stands by itself, I also add textures.
19:23:53 <V453000> well supermop with realtime projects it is a problem to consider
19:24:03 <supermop> better to wastes 100s of hours of computer's time than 10s of hours of human time optimizing
19:24:09 <ElleKitty> Basically, you're fixing your models by throwing more resources at it... instead of fixing your models
19:24:12 <MonkeyDrone> so who's taking the project of modeling me like kate from titanic? :D
19:24:20 <supermop> the human time is higher value and can be doing other things
19:24:39 <V453000> ElleKitty: aren't normal maps way more efficient than more geometry?
19:24:41 <supermop> and the computer won't ask for vacation or overtime pay
19:24:44 <V453000> computing power wise?
19:25:16 <ElleKitty> supermop You sound like someone coming from programming. But for a visual artist like me, learning is its own goal, and reward, in addition to other goals, and rewards
19:25:17 <supermop> making in model what can be done in maps always seems to melt my computer
19:25:32 <supermop> ElleKitty: i don't know how to program at all
19:25:59 <MonkeyDrone> echo 'hello world';
19:26:09 <MonkeyDrone> you are now elite supermop
19:26:58 <supermop> as an architect i spend my 'optimization' time optimizing the use of the space, the client's dollars, and the emotional impression of being in the space
19:27:12 * MonkeyDrone sips tea watching artists debate the exitenstial crisis of modelling efficiency or how a pleb percieves artists talking art
19:27:24 <supermop> whereever possible i do not spend that time making things easier on my workstation
19:28:18 <supermop> an extra few hours of a render farm chugging away at something is time i can be on the phone, researching product specs, sketching in my sketchbook
19:28:51 <supermop> also the render farm tends to chug away while i am asleep not sitting staring at my monitor
19:29:50 <MonkeyDrone> supermop, your render farm is at your own place or you use online servers?
19:30:07 <supermop> the completionist in me will get sidetracked at times modelling individual stones in a cobblestone gutter or ashlar wall
19:30:16 <frosch123> just ask andy. andy is our expert in spending time on making stuff faster
19:30:32 <V453000> XD frosch123 just won the internet for tonight
19:30:39 <supermop> cutting holes in a sheet of metal instead of a map with transparency
19:31:20 <supermop> so i have to catch myself to stop me doing insane things sometimes
19:31:49 <V453000> ElleKitty: show us some of your art :)
19:32:04 <MonkeyDrone> hmmm, i can draw circles in paint if you want guys want to see that :P
19:32:32 <supermop> i am not showing anyone any of the spaces im working on atm - so ugly with zero budgets
19:32:43 <supermop> not going to even go on our firms websites
19:32:51 <supermop> one of them is kind of fun tho
19:34:50 <ElleKitty> We wouldnt know, cause you wont show us.
19:35:02 <supermop> MonkeyDrone: here we pay others in Taiwan or Vietnam
19:37:03 <MonkeyDrone> supermop, ah outsource, good ol tactics
19:37:48 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDrone I do, this IS art
19:38:13 * MonkeyDrone pats himself on the back for a good job. *thanks the room*
19:38:44 <ElleKitty> There was once a camera crew that came to a museum to report on an art expo; they lowered their heavy equipment on an unused pedestal and went to arrange everything with the manager.
19:39:14 <ElleKitty> When they returned from the office, they discovered about hundred people around it, some taking pictures, and it won a first prize
19:39:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: ‘expert’ :P
19:39:37 <andythenorth> Wolf01: finishing the Arocs,
19:39:38 <MonkeyDrone> lol ElleKitty ........one of the things why i will never understand art.
19:39:47 <Wolf01> :) starting the Porsche
19:40:07 <ElleKitty> Thats the biggest proof that the self proclaimed art experts are just idiots with a fancy vocabulary
19:41:36 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDrone Dont try to understand art. Enjoy it! Dont listen to the art critics. Dont listen to movie critics either. I've watched a movie countless times and liked it, went online and found its score to be 2/10. Or I saw movies with 9/10 scores which I couldnt finish watching from the sheer idiocy packed into it.
19:41:46 <MonkeyDrone> hehe, i can only realize the value of art when i know how much heart has been put into it. If you staright up show me a picture and say this is art. I would just stare at it and go like 'what am i looking at?'. Let's just say there has been moments where people went, 'I don't know why I bothered asking you for feedback, again..' xD
19:42:10 <MonkeyDrone> ElleKitty, ah, i enjoy what I enjoy. I don't listen to people's opinions.
19:42:23 * MonkeyDrone is a free man, free to chose what he loves or not :D
19:42:30 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDrone Did you draw those circles just now, yourself?
19:42:34 <MonkeyDrone> *cough* like widnows *cough 10 cough*
19:42:59 <MonkeyDrone> ElleKitty, I sure as hell did, it was quiet hard, damn selection box kept popping up on each circle. *tough times*
19:43:10 <ElleKitty> Okay, because I saved it to disk <3
19:43:22 <MonkeyDrone> easier on the eyes now :P
19:43:43 <MonkeyDrone> V453000, done for the day?
19:43:47 <ElleKitty> Yes, it's easier now
19:43:56 <MonkeyDrone> V453000, time to hit the bong ? :D
19:44:16 <V453000> nah but I will finish foundations tonight
19:44:35 <ElleKitty> V453000 Which of the two versions did you like better
19:45:01 <MonkeyDrone> V453000, alright man, may the powers that be keep your sanity in check
19:45:29 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDrone V453000 is dissing your art, man
19:46:02 <MonkeyDrone> ElleKitty, dissing, more like jelly.
19:47:05 <ElleKitty> I thought you were above jealousy, V
19:47:28 * MonkeyDrone brings the J out of people :P
19:48:40 <V453000> I just don't consider it art. :)
19:49:24 <ElleKitty> V453000: How the heck not? It even says ART
19:49:59 <MonkeyDrone> V453000, dude, it says right there. ART. I mean how much more art can it get?
19:50:07 <MonkeyDrone> let me fix it for you
19:51:36 <Wolf01> This chat is too noisy, I think I should put more people in my ignore list :P
19:52:30 <MonkeyDrone> that's a lot of foundations :P
19:52:41 <V453000> exactly the amount the game uses
19:52:52 <V453000> some are duplicate, which someone will have to explain to me WTF
19:52:58 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDrone has really outdone himself now. It's like his previous art piece, but squared
19:52:58 <V453000> well have to is a strong statement
19:53:39 <ElleKitty> *waves waves to Wolf01 *
19:56:54 <MonkeyDrone> hehe, art is twice as good now aint' it :D
19:57:21 <andythenorth> Wolf01: this lego channel is full of talk about games
19:57:39 <V453000> so a group of biters walks into a bar
19:57:46 <ElleKitty> andythenorth Like, all games except OTTD
19:58:21 <frosch123> MonkeyDrone: you broke it
19:58:21 <frosch123> you can't square a circle
19:59:07 <MonkeyDrone> frosch123, ummm , maybe not in your limited universe :P
19:59:30 <ElleKitty> frosch123: MonkeyDrone can probably also divide by zero, and NOT destroy the existence
19:59:34 <MonkeyDrone> when you square a circle, it's x radius ends up the size of (x)^2 radius.
20:00:17 <MonkeyDrone> ok ok lets do some maths on this. (0)^2 is 0. You can't break a circle :)
20:00:34 <MonkeyDrone> i simplified it as much as i couldd
20:00:45 <MonkeyDrone> lol da....brilliant xD
20:03:16 <V453000> ElleKitty: 3D done yet? :>
20:04:19 <V453000> rendering for openttd of course
20:04:37 <ElleKitty> I dont understand. Please ask a full question?
20:05:01 <V453000> Can openttd render 3D objects yet?
20:05:28 <ElleKitty> I dont know, I havent checked
20:05:44 <ElleKitty> frosch123, does OpenTTD support 3D yet?
20:05:53 <ElleKitty> Ah no, not me. I cant code.
20:06:10 <V453000> didn't you say learning is your artist way of lyfe? :P
20:06:34 <MonkeyDrone> noe if you can't read code for saving your life V453000 ;P
20:06:36 <ElleKitty> Visual artist. All this time as we talked, I was 3D modelling.
20:07:00 <V453000> doesn't mean you can't learn other things
20:07:27 <ElleKitty> I can only learn one thing at a time. Right now, I'm modelling.
20:07:48 <ElleKitty> I'm not Tesla, to be able to talk, listen to two people at the same time, and write
20:08:08 <MonkeyDrone> ElleKitty, there is a fix for it. Speed? :D
20:08:18 <MonkeyDrone> well there are plenty of fix, but the side effects.....
20:08:38 <MonkeyDrone> would you like to see something traumatic taht you cannot unsee? i need 2 votess at least for that link to go up here
20:09:04 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDrone I vote yes, and V453000 also votes yes
20:10:01 <Wolf01> andythenorth, I'm thinking to build the Porsche with the modifications from eurobricks, but I'll wait for the removable chassis mod, I'll build the vanilla one first
20:11:16 <andythenorth> I haven’t done the crane on the Arocs, building it with my kids
20:11:23 <andythenorth> everything else about it is v. good
20:11:37 <ElleKitty> andythenorth What are you building? In what medium?
20:12:55 <MonkeyDrone> ElleKitty, i will need him to vote :P
20:13:03 <MonkeyDrone> it's disturbing content xD
20:13:28 <supermop> i am researching inset firedoors
20:13:53 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDrone I volounteered him!
20:14:07 <ElleKitty> MonkeyDrone I'm not planning to click anyway, unless tricked
20:14:12 <supermop> as our basement occupancy load went over the threshold for a fire rated stair. these things are all hideous
20:14:30 <MonkeyDrone> i'll pm it to you ;p
20:14:54 <andythenorth> Wolf01: most recent flagships have been underwhelming and over-priced IMHO :)
20:15:14 <Wolf01> That's why I purchased 4 of them
20:15:34 <Wolf01> Nice model, very good source of parts, right price
20:16:08 <Wolf01> andythenorth, the crane arm is weird to use, pneumatics don't allow the same precise control like the linear pistons, when you want to lower the arm don't open the valve but just a bit of it or it will fall down
20:22:29 <MonkeyDrone> wooo took me an hour just to find one doc file on the computer, tried like 6 different naming schemes...
20:23:23 <MonkeyDrone> had this short stories going on in a forum for a community a few years back
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20:24:03 <MonkeyDrone> i had just setup a new forum with the Xenforo software and made a test thread and wrote 'story time' as title and just wrote, Why did the chicken cross the road?
20:24:44 <MonkeyDrone> and it snowballed into a whole 11 page story of aliens, zombies, all of the gamer friends and Merkel....
20:25:21 <MonkeyDrone> had tons of smilies packs installed so that helped add a lot of environment to the story, it was brilliant <3
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20:33:45 <glx> <Wolf01> andythenorth, the crane arm is weird to use, pneumatics don't allow the same precise control like the linear pistons, when you want to lower the arm don't open the valve but just a bit of it or it will fall down <-- compressor and airtank side effect or just it's own weigth ?
20:34:50 <andythenorth> proportional control needed :P
20:34:52 <Wolf01> If you use the compressor too you can use it as a nutcracker
20:35:34 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I am seriously struggling to see what else TLG can do to raise the game on Technic
20:35:51 <glx> compressor itself is not a problem I think, but with airtank it just kills the progressivity
20:35:58 <andythenorth> small motor, better pneumatic valve, what’s left?
20:36:20 * glx only has models with manual pump
20:36:46 <Wolf01> glx, the problem with "just air" is that air is compressible and don't allow precise movement like oil pneumatic
20:38:05 <Wolf01> So you have like 1. fully extended; 2. fully retracted; 3. wobbly
20:40:09 *** berndj-blackout is now known as berndj
20:40:21 <supermop> Wolf01: fill your technic pistons with hydraulic fluid?
20:40:24 <glx> even have very old pneumatic system, with the weird 4x2 brick
20:40:42 <glx> supermop: I tried in water, destroyed a pump
20:41:13 <supermop> machine new technic scale brass pistons
20:42:30 <Wolf01> Even with mineral oil you must be really pay attention to only use closed circuits, so no valves
21:03:17 <Wolf01> V453000, ready for the new nvidia Titan X?
21:07:57 <V453000> Wolf01: I am considering it
21:08:12 <V453000> since all the shit I do in blender is gpu based, it might be a good idea
21:08:20 <V453000> but the 1080 is probably not that far off
21:09:32 <Wolf01> The 1080 is really, really interesting
21:10:29 <V453000> for home, I think before I upgrade a 1080Ti will come out and it will wreck shit
21:10:36 <V453000> for work the titan might be better
21:10:59 <V453000> but atm at home I have 980Ti and I will really think twice to upgrade to 1080Ti
21:11:44 <Wolf01> I have a gtx 780 and I'm waiting another year or so before considering to upgrade
21:13:47 <V453000> omg foundations are compiling XD
21:13:50 <V453000> let's see how fucked up it is
21:14:48 <V453000> doesn't give me foundations
21:15:15 <V453000> I have parameters which are on/off for things in BRIX
21:15:49 <V453000> when I add a parameter I need to manually turn it on because default is 0 by config for the newgrf from previous use, even though the default for the newgrf is actually 1
21:16:42 <V453000> it's completely broken
21:16:53 <Wolf01> screen or didn't happen
21:17:27 <V453000> nice that can cause some serious shit
21:18:02 <V453000> apparently broken foundations can demolish absolutely anything XD
21:19:28 <V453000> it's beyond me, but I have no clue how did it break everything else XD
21:19:33 <Wolf01> Nice, it's really fucked up
21:19:48 <V453000> the tracks, buildings and everything normally align fine
21:20:45 <Wolf01> Is there some code behind it or it's just a graphics failure which causes such havoc?
21:20:47 <V453000> well this is kind of hard to debug
21:20:54 <V453000> it's just wrong offsets
21:21:14 <Wolf01> I remember having the same problem with stations on slopes
21:21:16 <frosch123> make sure to set the sprites to NOCROP
21:21:34 <frosch123> foundations are parent sprites, so transpareny at the border makes a difference
21:21:47 <V453000> how do I set the sprites to nocrop?
21:22:50 <V453000> I somehow seem to remember using this
21:23:09 <V453000> ah yes sprite layouts
21:23:20 <frosch123> likely, they matter for houses and industries
21:23:27 <frosch123> there is no such thing for vehicles :)
21:25:02 <V453000> but seems consistently fucked up
21:25:59 <V453000> -32y looks like the key
21:26:59 <frosch123> first align the ground on top of the foundation to the foundation
21:27:20 <frosch123> you do that by moving the top-left corner of the sprite, i.e. adding/removing transparency
21:27:30 <V453000> is that done by changing offsets of the tracks, landscape, roads, everything?
21:27:34 <frosch123> or, ideally use the same values as ogfx
21:27:54 <frosch123> no, do not change roads, that would break them on on-foundations :p
21:28:11 <V453000> how do I move them then? :D
21:28:27 <frosch123> V453000: the "offset" positions the foundation, the "topleft corner" positions the stuff on top of the foundation
21:29:00 <frosch123> you cannot arbitrarily cut the foundation from your spritesheet
21:29:02 <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
21:29:35 <V453000> wouldn't hurt to know earlier XD
21:29:47 <V453000> well ok let's fix shit
21:30:51 <V453000> oh and the bottom border matters too, right?
21:31:00 <V453000> so I need to specify exactly the right height
21:31:09 <V453000> or just the top left?
21:31:19 <frosch123> bottom matters for clipping
21:31:34 <V453000> so each of the foundations will need different height definition
21:32:16 <V453000> for example the foundations which don't have the rear walls will be smaller so the height of the sprite must be smaller
21:32:34 <frosch123> width, height, xoffset, yoffset
21:32:46 <frosch123> there can be no variations to those values for foundations
21:33:19 <V453000> next step, x4 zoom XD
21:33:36 <frosch123> multiply everything by 4
21:34:40 <V453000> I'm pretty sure my terrain for example isn't using precisely 4*x1zoom
21:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a thing where foundation sprites weren't allowed to be cropped, is that still the case?
21:35:28 <V453000> x1 offset: -31,-24, x4 offset: -128, -96
21:35:37 <V453000> ok y is actually correct then
21:36:12 <V453000> frosch123: is there some way how to generate that code?
21:36:19 <V453000> I just spent 2 hours writing foundation code by hand
21:39:44 <V453000> nice it also uses -31
21:40:05 <frosch123> it's the exact same numbers :)
21:40:10 <V453000> although the x4 multiplying will be hell
21:40:11 <frosch123> or at least they should be
21:40:14 <V453000> how to do it automatically?
21:40:19 <V453000> ah I could just write *4 I guess
21:40:49 <V453000> jeez, foundations, shot n2
21:43:33 <V453000> oh but that still means that I need to place the sprites correctly in the spritesheet
21:44:03 <frosch123> didn't you plce them quite regulary?
21:44:33 <V453000> well not top-side aligned
21:45:03 <V453000> ok so I need to align everything to top
21:45:04 <frosch123> so subtract the height from the top :)
21:45:19 <V453000> nah I will just do it properly
21:45:30 <V453000> subtracting the height individually would probably lead to errors
21:45:38 <frosch123> you could use a spreadsheet application for that
21:45:49 <frosch123> and import/export as comma separated values
21:46:00 <V453000> it won't take that long to fix hopefully
21:46:17 <V453000> don't want more shit in the workflow
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21:50:50 <V453000> I should really learn some snakeshit python basics
21:52:58 <andythenorth> and when it gets hard, Eddi|zuHause explains what you’ve done wrong ;)
21:55:46 <V453000> frosch123: sprite like 1668 from my table should then be 24 pixels high, cause in my shit it is 96
21:55:54 <V453000> but there are no 24px things? :d
21:56:28 <V453000> 1670 and 1671 same thing
21:56:45 <V453000> the ogfx thing seems to alternate between 40 and 32px height
21:57:17 <V453000> and for the diagonals is 33 I guess
22:01:11 <frosch123> mind that the ogfx link i gave you starts at replacenew
22:01:37 <V453000> well yes 1668-1671 are replacenew
22:01:55 <V453000> I am just puzzled by the height
22:02:49 <V453000> ah in ogfx source the picture just has alpha at the top
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22:03:21 <V453000> but top 8px are apparently empty
22:03:35 <V453000> this makes less and less sense by the minute
22:03:53 <frosch123> just imagine where the ground sprite would be on the foundation
22:03:54 <V453000> no I just need it at the same position regardles if it has top shit wall or not
22:04:20 <frosch123> well, "8" is one heightlevel
22:04:30 <frosch123> you can also count the heightlevels that the foundations passes
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22:04:39 <frosch123> and add it to the regular flat tile sprite
22:04:44 <V453000> wtf have I gotten myself into again
22:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how it's so complicated. just take the flat tile sprite, draw the foundation around it, and then fill the flat tile with transparent
22:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the top corner of the flat tile stays at the same place
22:06:09 <V453000> yeah except when it's not a flat sprite
22:06:33 <Eddi|zuHause> then take a non-flat tile as base, and still have the north corner at the same place
22:13:11 <V453000> well yeah that's what I am already fixing
22:18:57 <V453000> it also means I must have precisely 4px shown of the wall at the top
22:19:05 <V453000> to translate correctly into x1
22:23:00 <V453000> I think I am defeated
22:23:09 <V453000> too many unknown things and too big task to just try
22:24:18 <frosch123> well, try to fix one flat foundation
22:24:24 <frosch123> the rest should be obvious then
22:25:09 <V453000> my superior workflow actually is flexible enough to do the fixing all at once
22:36:53 <V453000> frosch123: how do I write alternative_sprites for that thing?
22:40:34 <V453000> I figured you probably already wrote water coasts for me like that XD
22:40:38 <V453000> found them in my shit
22:40:45 <V453000> thank you. :) man, fish, bla
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22:57:18 <V453000> well it's less broken yet still broken as shit
22:57:25 <V453000> though for today I probably did all I could
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continue to next day ⏵
