IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-07-21
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01:29:50 <NekoMaster-Awake> so quiet around here
01:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you think THAT is quiet?
01:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you haven't seen actual quiet days yet :p
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07:16:13 <Flygon> And all I can think is that Trams and Trolleybuses have been viable since they've been invented :U
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12:32:36 <Wolf01> cluster grenades > all
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14:57:57 <V453000> where was that large ogfx file with all the sprite IDs etc?
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15:00:32 <Wolf01> V453000, do you think it would be too much work to be able to place ghost entities without having them in the inventory? Just like blueprints (I don't want to make a blueprint of every single entity even if now there's plenty of space)
15:01:40 <V453000> press shift when placing entity
15:01:52 <Wolf01> I can't, I don't have the entity
15:02:19 <V453000> I can't imagine how would such a thing work tbh
15:02:38 <Wolf01> oh, just select it from the recipe list
15:03:44 <V453000> well since that's already for crafting, it would be confusing
15:04:24 <Wolf01> shift+click -> ghost entity in hands instead of crafting it (which I can't do even that because I don't keep materials in the inventory)
15:05:02 <Wolf01> too bad the shift is used to "craft x of entity"
15:05:03 <V453000> isn't shift click something like craft all you can?
15:06:07 <Wolf01> ctrl+click does something else
15:08:32 <Wolf01> also I can't understand why suddenly the construction bots left the work half done
15:12:30 <V453000> =D I never realized openttd's base set wagons are all symmetrical and thus use just 4 sprites instead of 8 XD
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15:13:56 <Wolf01> having a lot of details isn't always needed
15:14:56 <Wolf01> I read of people bitching about leaving out the "drive-on-left" feature because bus doors are on the wrong side and it will ruin the gameplay experience
15:15:27 <Wolf01> I don't even notice such details
15:15:41 <Wolf01> also, I would make buses with doors on both sides
15:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that even an argument? some of the trams open doors on both sides
15:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> also, if you have a 3d model, it's fairly easy to just flip it
15:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (might have to adjust text)
15:17:52 <Wolf01> but you know, everyone is a developer and talks for developers
15:18:13 <Wolf01> if they decide is too much work for a developer to flip a texture, it is too much work
15:19:22 <MonkeyDronez> left hand drive for the win
15:19:34 <MonkeyDronez> passenger doors on the right, lets keep it civil and british shall we
15:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> err, if you drive on the left, the right side is the traffic side
15:20:23 <MonkeyDronez> yes, right side is where you drop people off too
15:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you drop people off in the middle of the road?
15:20:54 <MonkeyDronez> no , that's when you switch lanes
15:21:05 <MonkeyDronez> and go to the outer right lane and park at the appropriate stop
15:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so your busses block the opposing traffic to let out passengers?
15:21:54 <MonkeyDronez> Fast lane, medium lanes, then on the right most comes the slow lane where all the slow pokes drive
15:22:01 <MonkeyDronez> opposing traffic
15:22:15 <MonkeyDronez> see the problem now is that you are thinking right hand driving roads with left hadn driving
15:22:31 <MonkeyDronez> for left hand driving, the road and road system is design to work with left hand driving, not right hand driving
15:22:47 <MonkeyDronez> obviously it would be stupid to use left hand driving on right hand road systems
15:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> some countries do that, have the steering wheel on the other side
15:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but still drive on right
15:24:08 <MonkeyDronez> what country o.o
15:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> also, nobody used the term "left hand driving"
15:24:11 <MonkeyDronez> living in stone age
15:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> MonkeyDronez: i think it's common in scandinavian countries
15:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> where it's more important to see the edge of the road, which frequently is along cliffs (up or down), rather than a good view for overtaking
15:26:12 <MonkeyDronez> ah , well , most places i've been, never had cliffs, all normal
15:26:34 <MonkeyDronez> and ottd doesn't have to worry about cliffs
15:26:44 <MonkeyDronez> so we can keep it British and civil :P
15:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> still, i think you
15:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> 're confusing the left and right side
15:30:45 <MonkeyDronez> hmmm, ok, lets take directions, north and south
15:30:59 <MonkeyDronez> if we were travelling north and there are 2 lanes, 1 going N, 1 going S
15:31:11 <V453000> sprite IDs of vehicles are such a mess XD I don't think there is any system in the cargo order
15:31:15 <MonkeyDronez> the right side would be going N, left side would be going S. this would be LHD system
15:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a strangely confusing and misleading definition there
15:33:02 <MonkeyDronez> i'm telling you how road systems work here
15:34:24 <peter1138> $ clamscan /usr/share/doc/python-libxml2/examples/reader2.py
15:34:28 <peter1138> Xml.Exploit.CVE_2013_3860-1 FOUND
15:35:08 <MonkeyDronez> sudo apt-get remove clamscan
15:36:21 <peter1138> Not really an option
15:48:05 <murr4y> that's about parsing untrusted xml, right?
15:49:10 <murr4y> i think most xml parsers are vulnerable to maliciously crafted xml unless explicitly stated otherwise
15:49:43 <peter1138> It's about Microsoft .NET parsing XML.
15:50:21 <V453000> LMFAO, base set doesn't define mono/mglv wagons for water, copper ore and rubber
15:51:22 <murr4y> oh lol, it found a .net vulnerability in your python library?
15:52:10 <V453000> I am never going to view the game the same ever again
15:59:18 <peter1138> It's a python example script that looks like it generates XML programmatically. Therefore there are segments of XML in it, but it's not a well-formed XML document.
15:59:43 <peter1138> V453000, doesn't it just reuse existing graphics?
16:00:07 <V453000> but all temperate wagons have maglev version
16:00:10 <V453000> tropic just doesn't :D
16:05:06 <V453000> and wtf is going on with steel/paper
16:05:21 <V453000> and I can't find empty copper ore hopper ._.
16:06:11 <V453000> copper ore hopper 2774 xd which is iron ore hopper
16:06:46 <V453000> must be some climate-specific shit in opengfx
16:07:22 <V453000> oh yeah they are in extra
16:07:48 <V453000> ah the extra maglev rubber etc wagons are there as well
16:08:16 <peter1138> sprite replacements, loving it
16:08:24 <V453000> this makes no sense even
16:08:38 <V453000> why is loaded copper ore hopper in base, and empty in extra
16:09:27 <V453000> cause the original copper ore hopper looks the same as iron ore hopper
16:09:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that might have been a bug in the original graphics where openttd.grf has a fix for it
16:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and ogfx just copied that general structure
16:10:11 <V453000> nah it's cause the empty hopper is reused in multiple places
16:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you find more wtfs in that area
16:11:32 <V453000> they are one wtf on top of each other
16:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what you get for organically grown software
16:12:26 <V453000> it's not like factorio has no wtf :P
16:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but since openttd relies on the original graphics so much, there is no room for "let's redo this from scratch", even if someone wanted to do it
16:23:37 <V453000> I am not even going to wonder why is the order of engines so weird
16:23:41 <Milek7> stupid windows cross compiling
16:23:48 <V453000> like Lev3, Lev4, Lev1, Lev2
16:24:01 <V453000> apparently the TTD dev couldn't even count numbers
16:24:45 <Wolf01> nah, it's the same story of the lego porsche: sequential shift: 1-3-2-4
16:26:06 <V453000> sadlfvsduhadspofasfladkduaoayg adofjsikaY
16:30:55 <V453000> I think I will shit myself from the wtf
16:34:03 <V453000> lol I really almost did
16:39:14 <V453000> the arctic trains were especially fun
16:39:29 <V453000> firs one comes last, steamer somewhere in the middle, rest of the diesels seems random XD
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18:25:16 <andythenorth> been meaning to go for years
18:25:38 <andythenorth> not far from where I live
18:28:51 <Wolf01> nothing as funny as that here for hundreds of km :(
18:31:06 <Alberth> funny how you never visit such things close to your home :)
18:31:43 <Wolf01> ok, there is a kart racetrack... but prices went up 250% in the latest 3 years
18:32:02 <Wolf01> 25€ for 3 laps is a theft
18:34:27 <Wolf01> I started going there when it was 10€ about 5 years ago
18:42:02 <andythenorth> secondary production isn’t divided by the number of output cargos
18:45:49 * andythenorth wonders what this will do
18:45:50 <andythenorth> STORE_TEMP((economy==1 || economy==4) ? 2 : 1, var_num_output_cargos)
18:46:02 <andythenorth> or rather, if it does what I think it should
18:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you think it does
18:47:16 <andythenorth> if economy is 1 or 4, store 2 in a temp register (the var for register number expands to 3)
18:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's probably what it does
18:48:38 <andythenorth> ok so everything is good, up until the switch for ‘produce'
18:49:32 * andythenorth can’t follow order of maths ops without putting all the brackets in explicitly :P
18:49:33 <andythenorth> LOAD_PERM(var_leftover_cargo_1) / MAX_SUM_PROD_RATIO / LOAD_TEMP(var_num_output_cargos) * LOAD_PERM(var_ratio_cargo_1)
18:50:09 <andythenorth> I assume that *isn’t* dividing correctly by var_num_output_cargos
18:50:14 <andythenorth> because that’s the behaviour I see in game
18:50:46 <andythenorth> the production is equivalent to dividing by 1
18:50:57 <andythenorth> but sometimes should be half that
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18:52:35 <Milek7> current breakdowns algorithm is broken :P
18:54:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: are you sure that a) your magic economy numbers 1 and 4 are right, b) that statement is actually executed in the path to the second statement?
18:55:11 <Rubidium> s/broken/not behaving like I expect/
18:58:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: (b) is true (a) 4 is wrong, strong chance you’ve found the source of the bug
18:58:30 * andythenorth needs to fix and test
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19:07:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is a very specific talent :)
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19:17:07 <andythenorth> it would be more pleasing if nmlc summarised the lang errors
19:17:22 <andythenorth> ’27 languages don’t match english.lng'
19:17:42 <andythenorth> I miss FIRS compile errors because of the lang output
19:18:14 <Milek7> but anyone think it is good algorithm?
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19:57:21 <frosch123> hmm, the wagons look quite square
19:57:43 <frosch123> maybe only in this orientation
19:58:30 <andythenorth> the tankers? agreed
19:58:47 <andythenorth> they lack contrast
19:59:18 <frosch123> maybe the grey part over the second red line yould be one pixel shorter or longer than the stuff below
20:00:38 <andythenorth> they don’t need the red line at all, CC is shown by the cab
20:00:44 <frosch123> the hoppers seem to suffer from too few pixels :)
20:01:14 <andythenorth> not enough variety? Or something else?
20:01:34 <frosch123> there are only 8 pixels that differ them from a boxvan
20:03:45 <frosch123> maybe the back wall is too bright
20:03:53 <frosch123> it should have a different shade than the side walls
20:04:51 <andythenorth> I might need to fake them more
20:05:14 <andythenorth> I already made the white one look more bulky compared to grey one
20:09:42 <frosch123> though the red things on top confuse me
20:11:21 <andythenorth> loading hatches ;)
20:11:42 <andythenorth> the modification is better
20:11:54 <andythenorth> removes a problem where the vehicle looks too thin
20:12:21 <andythenorth> also the cab roof and the body don’t match. w.r.t contrast highlight
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20:20:58 <argoneus> do you guys use timetables for passenger train loops?
20:21:07 <argoneus> I'd rather avoid timetables
20:21:09 <argoneus> but I'm not sure how
20:21:17 <argoneus> they're a pain to set up and break easily
20:21:25 <frosch123> best use for timetables it to only timetable loading time, not travel time
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20:21:32 <frosch123> essentially the factorio loading time order
20:26:12 <Alberth> I set both, but travel time with a load of slack time, to handle breakdown and catching up
20:26:18 <frosch123> V453000: don't worry, ottd did not patent the idea
20:26:46 <V453000> how are you liking 0.13 frosch123 ?
20:27:03 <frosch123> train building is easier
20:27:43 <V453000> I was making huge use of the belts connectible to circuit networks
20:27:55 <frosch123> i disliked the old smart inserter, so the new stuff is better
20:27:57 <V453000> was using the hardcrafting mod which makes smelting much more co mplex
20:28:02 <frosch123> i don't think i used any of the other new stuff yet
20:28:39 <V453000> well I mainly like that now if you research inserter stack bonus, you don't need to explain the player that it only works between containers, not on belts
20:30:04 <frosch123> is there any use for the stack inserters except for trains?
20:30:10 <frosch123> maybe when using express belts?
20:30:41 <V453000> the wires/circuits factories can make use of them even with normal belts, but generally yeah - trains, express belts, logistic chests
20:31:19 <frosch123> well, i wondered: there is fast inserter, filter inserer and stack inserter
20:31:32 <frosch123> it feels somehow wrong to me to also have a filter stack inserter
20:31:43 <frosch123> there is no filter long inserter either
20:31:47 <V453000> well it only has 1 filter
20:31:53 <frosch123> or no long stack inserter
20:31:59 <V453000> and you usually want to make train loading/unloading filtered
20:32:19 <V453000> well long inserters are kind of discouraged as it makes belt mayhem easier
20:32:26 <V453000> so it's good to have them weak
20:32:41 <V453000> it's like trains with low curve requirements in openttd :P
20:33:19 <frosch123> i never used "mass cargo" in a mixed cargo wagon
20:33:42 <V453000> yeah, it's more for things like if a wrong train stops in the station, if you drive a train there manually, ...
20:33:44 <frosch123> so, i do not see the point of a filter stack inserter :)
20:33:59 <V453000> with big train networks it is good to have idiot-proofing
20:34:00 <frosch123> hmm, good point... i did that last game :p
20:34:12 <frosch123> swapped iron and copper at some loading station
20:34:21 <frosch123> messed up everything at the dropoff :p
20:34:29 <V453000> well, there you go :P point for filtering
20:38:08 <frosch123> also, i learned you can copy the engine color like you color receipes
20:39:29 <frosch123> but setting up orders is still cumbersome :p
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20:39:53 <frosch123> also i learned how to move a station
20:40:01 <V453000> today I went through trains and road vehicles in a base set, taking the order they are in, and the sprite IDs
20:40:08 <V453000> the WTF I witnessed is beyond stars
20:40:28 <frosch123> but yes, vehicle are hopeless in baseset
20:40:38 <V453000> well yeah, I used the huge ogfx file
20:40:49 <V453000> but just decoding which is which and writing down the order is insane
20:41:03 <frosch123> and some of the industries
20:41:03 <V453000> best part was when I discovered how the fuck are extra wagons added
20:41:06 <V453000> the climate dependent
20:41:10 <MonkeyDrone> when you talk baseset, its from the original developers of the game?
20:41:33 <frosch123> its from the 1994 original
20:42:01 <V453000> but I don't even mention ordering like Lev3, Lev4, Lev1, Lev2 , Kirby Paul Tank being after Ginzu, AsiaStar before T.I.M, ...
20:42:11 <V453000> 1994 didn't have maglev etc
20:42:24 <frosch123> V453000: anyway, when you come to houses: random houses are recolored with different recolor shemas to add variety
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20:42:51 <V453000> so that's why some zbase houses are fucked up by cc
20:43:15 <V453000> can I just ... not provide 8bpp mask for the 32bpp things? :D
20:43:29 <frosch123> V453000: 94 is tto, 96 is ttd
20:43:37 <frosch123> most of the baseset is from tto
20:44:01 <frosch123> it even contains some sprites that are not used in ttd, but only were in tto
20:44:04 <V453000> hm why did I think it was 98
20:44:18 <frosch123> 98 is starcraft and halflife
20:44:24 <frosch123> it was a great year for games :)
20:44:41 <V453000> wikinegria even says 1995
20:45:09 <frosch123> maybe 96 was the windows version then?
20:45:15 <frosch123> 94 tto, 95 ttd, 96 ttdwin?
20:48:14 <frosch123> no game cared about windows in 95
20:48:37 <frosch123> windows only had like cellphone games
20:50:14 <V453000> I don't even remember those times anymore
20:50:25 <V453000> I was a few years old, I must admit, but still
20:51:44 <MonkeyDrone> you don't remember command prompt?
20:51:48 <frosch123> all the good games used dos/4g back then
20:52:24 <frosch123> like settlers 1, which was imho better than 2
20:52:28 <MonkeyDrone> i live on cmd for a few years on the 486. I only remember Golden Axe and Mortal Kombat 3 thought
20:52:53 * andythenorth makes more trams
20:53:47 <MonkeyDrone> turn based games were very big iirc
20:53:54 <MonkeyDrone> i played those mostly
20:54:48 <V453000> we probably had win95 early, at which point I was like 6 years old
20:54:57 <V453000> command line probably not very useful for illiterates :P
20:55:10 <MonkeyDrone> wait wait wait, how old are you V?
20:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the first windows game i had was outpost
20:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and that was before windows 95
20:56:01 <MonkeyDrone> damn, i'm 31 in two months...
20:56:07 <Rubidium> not minesweeper and solitaire?
20:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm not counting those
20:56:29 <MonkeyDrone> i remember buying windows 3.1 on floppies
20:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember BUYING a windows, ever...
20:57:13 <MonkeyDrone> and also mcaffee antivirus came on 3 floppies, had to buy it because our computer got infected and it would play a midi for 2-3 minutes everytime we would turn it on before it went to dos.
20:58:02 <MonkeyDrone> windows 9.5 was on quiet a few multiple floppies, we had one of those boxes in which you kept and collected your floppies all labeled up, heh
20:58:31 <MonkeyDrone> first time i bought windows was 8.1 , was selling for $15, bought 3 copies, no regrets. Made life easier :P
21:00:22 <V453000> I bought 7 and I am afraid of the day I will have to switch to win10 or more
21:01:38 <MonkeyDrone> well you can just uprgrade it now to get your key hooked to W10 and go back to W7
21:01:48 <MonkeyDrone> although W10 works pretty flawlessly
21:02:04 <frosch123> Rubidium: win 3.0 had a reversi, which was so buggy (computer did not obey the rules), that it was removed in 3.1
21:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you can just claim your free 10 key, and not install 10 until you are ready
21:11:12 <frosch123> you generally do not install 10
21:11:19 <frosch123> at some point it installs itself
21:12:31 <MonkeyDrone> hehe, it did happen to a guy i know. All my machines, i upgraded it asap it came out. I guess i'm an early adopted once it's in the public
21:12:33 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: but I don't want it, ever
21:12:44 <V453000> all the bullshit around dpi scaling and stuff
21:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: and are you really sure about NEVER?
21:16:52 <MonkeyDrone> rip V453000 , you will be missed
21:17:16 <andythenorth> V453000: what is the dpi? problem
21:17:46 <V453000> on laptops and high dpi screens windows forces weird shitty rescaling which looks horrible in about all applications
21:17:53 <V453000> you can disable it, per each application
21:18:16 <V453000> had enough at that point
21:19:10 <MonkeyDrone> so happy my artistic skills are non existent, i don't think i've ever noticed issues like that
21:19:51 <V453000> well blurry text is easy to detect
21:20:54 <V453000> and I mean, if I add such a retarded option (who the fuck thought of that in the first place), it should be disable-able in the settings, not in compatibility options of each program
21:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it's the kind of problem you cannot unsee, but before that you can be blissfully ignorant about
21:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i imagine there's at least a registry key to set the global default
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22:08:46 <andythenorth> V453000: my laptop rescales everything for high DPI screen, I just got used to it
22:12:58 <V453000> how did you manage that?
22:13:11 <peter1138> Probably by using a mac...
22:14:19 <Milek7> windows also have dpi rescaling
22:14:27 <andythenorth> everything looked too sharp for a few months
22:14:30 <andythenorth> but then I got used to it
22:14:43 <andythenorth> I had to change fonts and stuff to avoid the painful sharpness
22:15:06 <andythenorth> I have seen linux on high DPI screen, looked fine, except where the icons aren’t scaled
22:16:09 <Milek7> V453000: it won't blur if you set scaling to 100% in settings
22:16:40 <Milek7> but that have downside that then even dpi aware applications will be small
22:23:28 <andythenorth> my display is 2560x1600
22:23:57 <andythenorth> and it runs equivalent to 1280x800
22:24:04 <andythenorth> using 4 pixels to draw 1
22:24:12 <andythenorth> there is no scaling problem :P
22:24:19 <andythenorth> and nothing is small
22:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is no problem if it's a clean multiple
22:24:45 <andythenorth> only downside is that screenshots are double-sized
22:24:48 <andythenorth> and everything is too sharp
22:25:05 <Alberth> makes you wonder why you pay a shitload of money to run a low resolution screen
22:25:38 <andythenorth> it’s 13”, I don’t have built in magnifiers in my eyes :D
22:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the old "double sized" patch for miniin had filters so it wouldn't just blow up the pixels, but smooth them out as well
22:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> dosbox has similar things
22:26:30 * andythenorth also runs ottd at double size, for same “eyes don’t magnify” reason
22:27:03 <Alberth> technology pushing stuff you don't actually need :)
22:27:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is V just doing it wrong? :)
22:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> V does loads of things wrong...
22:29:59 <andythenorth> V453000 can haz fireless steam tram yet? o_O
22:30:35 <V453000> got distracted by actually making BRIX happen
22:30:40 <V453000> it might become reality soon :
22:32:13 <V453000> at least version 0.0.1, with more content than RAWR ever did
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continue to next day ⏵
