IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-06-22
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00:07:07 <Samu> woah, otvi is putting a good show with ships
00:07:33 <Samu> but nocab is still doing better
00:07:51 <Samu> nothing stops nocab, except trains?
00:08:10 <Samu> i have yet to test aircraft
00:09:34 <Samu> hmm, dictatorai is also doing nicely
00:09:55 <Samu> i really have no idea how this will end, never really tested ships only before
00:10:30 <Samu> i've tested ships in combinations with other vehicle types, but this is different
00:10:41 <Samu> let's see what the AIs are capable of
00:22:51 <Samu> hmm otvi does have some ship depot placement issues
00:23:54 <Samu> ships can't leave depot, blocked by terrain in either exit
00:24:17 <Samu> and simultaneously, the depot is also blocking passage to other ships
00:24:25 <Samu> the water course is blocked
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00:52:08 <Samu> nocab crashed... too long to save :(
00:55:34 <Samu> restarted nocab without autosaves
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10:57:02 <Wolf01> but... but... but... the game was just updated, why does it need to update again? :(
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11:54:36 <Wolf01> mmh, I think I'll switch to the most efficient layout for solar farms, at least I can spare one blueprint
11:58:58 <Alkel_U3> best layouts are the self-building ones with embeded roboports
11:59:32 <Alkel_U3> I don't mean in terms of efficiency, I just think it's cool :P
12:03:25 <Alkel_U3> hm, it would perhaps be nice to have charging stations that wouldn't provide housing to robots but still could charge them. Now I have to build large amount of superfluous roboports to act mostly as chargers near the densest logistics areas (mostly the one where I get stuff into my inventory)
12:03:55 <Alkel_U3> those would be either smaller or provide more charging ports
12:05:36 <Alkel_U3> hm, I see there have been mods for that
12:07:22 <Wolf01> the problem is that I wouldn't need roboports in the middle of nowhere
12:07:34 <Wolf01> but I think I'll place one in the middle of each cell too
12:08:20 <Alkel_U3> I also don't really need those six rows of laser turrets, but... :D
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12:37:12 <Samu> there's a lot of refit code
12:37:50 <Samu> i'd like to try a change somewhere in the code relating to refits inside ship depots
12:38:14 <Samu> if there's not enough money for refit, the game currently stops the ship
12:38:42 <Samu> i'd like it not to stop the ship, refit regardless of cost
12:39:06 <Samu> where would this be in teh code?
13:04:12 <Wolf01> bah, these high efficiency layouts don't work
13:04:52 <Wolf01> I don't need layouts which recharge in no time :|
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13:23:20 <V453000> youtube is down, how can I work?
13:26:36 <V453000> even porn is more productive than that
13:36:55 <Alkel_U3> it's back on, you can get back to work :P
13:36:59 <Wolf01> V453000, brightcove or vimeo
13:37:43 <Samu> those require registering an account
13:38:31 <Samu> i've been using onedrive though, but i hear some ppl can't see the videos i use
13:38:47 <Wolf01> samu, he wanted to view videos
13:38:47 <Samu> and it needs a microsoft account...
13:39:30 <Samu> thought it was for uploading
13:39:38 <Wolf01> it's a graphics designer job to watch at videos the entire day to get new ideas
13:43:24 <Wolf01> mmm I really need 2.5:1 instead of the 0.84 suggested for an extreme efficient layout for solar farms
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13:47:36 <V453000> EXACTLY Wolf01 I will suggest it at our next meeting
13:47:41 <V453000> watching videos to get inspired
13:47:56 <V453000> also, tbh completely ignore the 0.84 ... at least that's what I do
13:47:59 <V453000> because it makes no sense
13:48:16 <Wolf01> thats what my coworkers always did ;)
13:48:22 <V453000> it only works if your factory has the precise amount of solar panels you need, if it never stops working, if if if
13:48:36 <V453000> the only safe solution is have shitload of solar panels, shitload of accumulators, both in excess
13:48:48 <V453000> in general I get a lot of accumulators to have room for laser defense draining and shit
13:50:39 <Wolf01> and behemots are starting to give me some troubles
13:51:28 <Alkel_U3> it's nice to have half-a-day worth of spare energy storage so you have time to realize you accidentaly cut of your largest solar farm
13:51:45 <Wolf01> oh, shit... I don't think I can go further this way... the map is all red :|
13:52:25 <V453000> yeah or even that Alkel_U3
13:52:26 <Alkel_U3> just power armour your way through :-)
13:52:38 <V453000> but in my 0.13 playthrough I am going to use no solar panels, no accumulators, no laser turrets
13:52:43 <V453000> just steam all the way
13:52:51 <Wolf01> whoa, I can count at least 15 behemots on the smallest nest
13:53:10 <Wolf01> ion cannon mod, here I come
13:53:10 <V453000> yeah behemoths have a big power spike, they are suddenly there and they are much stronger than big biters :D
13:53:40 <Alkel_U3> fortunately also slow
13:54:02 <Alkel_U3> ulike, say, trains :P
13:54:02 <V453000> I don't think they are slower than normal biters
13:54:32 <Wolf01> the problem is that they are spitters, so they are able to wipe my outposts
13:55:19 <Wolf01> the biters are attacking the tracks between outposts too, they seem to have learnt to avoid turrets
13:56:07 <Alkel_U3> hm, maybe it was bigger colision boxes so they'd be getting stuck more often? Usually when I have whole hell on my tail running towards nearest laser-equiped outpost the small ones arrive first, then mediums and then bigs
13:56:43 <Alkel_U3> behemoth spitters are kinda a concern, yes :P
13:56:52 <Wolf01> shit, they just wiped out the outpost
13:56:56 <V453000> Wolf01, natives always prefer military shit, radars, pollution shit
13:57:07 <V453000> they go towards pollution, and wreck military/radars on the way there
13:57:17 <V453000> they seem to focus radars sometimes too
13:57:26 <Wolf01> no pollution, I'm building a railway
13:57:39 <Wolf01> and place outposts at regular intervals
13:57:40 <V453000> yeah well when they get into idle state or something, they also eat railways
13:57:43 <V453000> maybe sometimes just for a snack
13:58:01 <V453000> a bit of ballast can't hurt
13:58:25 <Wolf01> trenches, laser fences, traps...
13:58:36 <Alkel_U3> spitters get physical attack from that, when they spit sleepers and railway ties at you :D
13:59:18 <V453000> just make a laser turret wall everywhere :P
13:59:48 <Alkel_U3> I meant the other thing that ties the rail to the tie... nevermind
14:00:01 <Wolf01> I built a laser turret wall :D
14:00:13 <Wolf01> but I might need to make it 3 rows
14:00:33 <Alkel_U3> try that cannonturret mod :D
14:00:44 <Wolf01> I'll go for the artillery
14:01:35 <Wolf01> 0.11... 0.11... meh.11
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14:05:00 <Wolf01> need a more reliable tank, the base one is shit at late game
14:08:47 <V453000> I like the Super Tank mod
14:08:55 <V453000> OP as fuck but why not really
14:09:09 <V453000> it's not like flying combat robots are exactly satisfying
14:09:24 <V453000> but yeah combat overhaul is probably coming in 0.14
14:09:39 <Wolf01> I'm trying with defender capsules but they don't like to kill too much
14:13:07 <Alkel_U3> defenders really don't fare well againts behemots or bigs
14:13:25 <Alkel_U3> destroyers in good numbers on th other hand...
14:18:08 <Wolf01> it seem I can't see that video
14:19:39 <Alkel_U3> it's a fighter jet of sorts with rockets
14:21:07 <Alkel_U3> oh, cool feature I didn't know youtube has - you have to know what the wideo's about to be able to load it. Nice!
14:21:53 <Samu> i dont know how to change this refit thing
14:22:18 <Samu> a ship has an order to go to ship depot to refit
14:22:54 <Samu> if the company has enough money, it refits, but if it doesn't, it stops the ship
14:23:03 <Samu> i want to avoid the vehicle to stop
14:23:22 <Samu> i want to either wait for money, then refit
14:23:34 <Samu> or just refit and letthe company go into negative balance
14:24:17 <Samu> stopping the vehicle is a bad solution, especially when dealing with a large company
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14:39:41 <Samu> wait for money is probably the better solution, rather than letting company go into negative
14:40:12 <Samu> ship waits inside depot until company gets money
14:40:25 <Samu> once it gets, it refits and releases ship
14:40:39 <Samu> something like a red signal / green signal
14:40:53 <Samu> dunno how feasible this is
14:42:00 <Samu> if it doesn't get money after a long while, maybe display a news message
14:42:16 <Samu> kinda like a train waiting too long on a red signal
14:49:28 <Wolf01> isn't it already like that?
14:52:09 <V453000> exactly how it should be then
14:54:25 <Samu> it isn't, maybe some newgrf does that
14:54:33 <Samu> i see tons of newgrf codes in-between
14:54:44 <Samu> original vehicles don't do it
14:55:02 <Samu> i never use newgrfs, so i don't really know
14:56:14 <Alkel_U3> no it isn't, the bugs should be aflame
14:58:29 <V453000> just make refit always cost 0
14:58:48 <V453000> haha Alkel_U3 probably sees my current testing savegame :P
15:00:58 <Alkel_U3> I had a hunch that was part of that 'no lasers' earlier :P
15:01:43 <V453000> I want to test how do flamethrowers+gun turrets deal vs behemoth problems
15:02:22 <V453000> and how much excess oil do I need to feed all that fiery mayhem
15:03:06 <Alkel_U3> does it accept fuel directly from the pipe? :D
15:03:16 <Alkel_U3> I very much hope it does!
15:03:22 <V453000> yeah, there is no other way to feed them
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15:03:41 <V453000> also, if you build multiple of them next to each other, the pipe works as a pipe, it just has the fluid going through
15:03:56 <V453000> but you probably don't want to make gigantic arrays of them, just one every while
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15:04:39 <Alkel_U3> Awesome! :-) Well, the other way would be canisters of fuel like for the handheld flamethrower now. That would be lame :P
15:10:06 <Samu> there's a massive input slowdown on NoCAB ship server
15:11:47 <Samu> i see most AIs fail at positioning ship depots
15:12:21 <Samu> otvi is really spamming ship depots
15:12:55 <V453000> Yeah it would be too similar to gun turrets Alkel_U3 , you could as well put the flamethrower cannisters into those and call it a new feature
15:13:30 <V453000> though my plan is to deliver crude oil to outposts, refine it there, send sulfur+plastic back to main base, use light oil as ammo
15:14:39 <Alkel_U3> to draw more attention to the proximity of the turrets? :-)
15:24:23 <Samu> there's not easy way to find depots on the minimap
15:25:12 <Samu> only company property shows them, but it's just by the company color
15:27:06 <Wolf01> I'd be happy with a firestorm generator :/
15:27:42 <Samu> dictatorai has someships with a single order
15:30:44 <Wolf01> V, do you think it will be possible to have terrain edges one day, like the command&conquer ones?
15:36:13 <Wolf01> like cliffs, just to add some variation
15:40:21 <V453000> yeah cliffs would be nice but idk when that might happen
15:40:30 <V453000> terrain will get some improvements in 0.14, just don't know what exactly
15:41:14 <V453000> also, that deviantart webpage is Pavel
15:41:29 <V453000> the guy who was fired so I am now in his place
15:43:28 <V453000> his artwork is nice, but working with him was a pain
15:45:50 <Wolf01> I might know the kind of person
15:47:08 <Wolf01> mmmh, what is with game devs these days? steam games getting updated 2-3 times on the same day :|
16:00:30 <peter1138> remember when games were released when finished...?
16:00:54 <Wolf01> it must be long time ago, because I don't
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16:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that's a perception bias. games weren't finished, they were just "done", because distributing patches was so hard
16:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of games that were rushed to market and just ended up terrible
16:52:33 <Eddi|zuHause> also, games where you found out years later that there was like a 1.4 patch, but it never got to you
16:55:49 <Samu> 90 degrees and ship depots is tough for AIs to deal with
16:58:52 <Wolf01> 26°C and my AI doesn't work well
17:02:20 <Samu> major issue with ship AIs as I see it, is ship depots blocking
17:02:40 <Samu> i am allowing 90 degrees turns
17:02:58 <Samu> it helps a bit, but not in all cases
17:03:11 <Samu> with forbidden 90 degrees it would be way worse
17:04:14 <Samu> otvi ai is really careless with ship depot positioning
17:04:52 <Samu> sometimes he puts depots on a valid connection
17:05:19 <Samu> then he releases the ship from that same depot, they're lost on the let go
17:07:28 <Samu> nocab however masses ships on blocked connections to the point it slows down the whole game~
17:08:34 <Samu> there's also the half-tile water/half-tile land from towns
17:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> how are these two things correlated?
17:09:04 <Samu> that half water tile is no longer allowing ship passage
17:10:02 <Samu> this is a very tough situation for AIs to deal with
17:11:03 <Samu> with 90 degrees forced into the mix, there's just too many slowdowns
17:11:24 <Samu> the game doesn't make it easy for AIs
17:13:25 <Samu> rivers don't help, in fact, it is causing issues with dictatorAI, he's not aware that he needs to build locks
17:14:00 <Samu> 90 degrees and rivers is really hard, even from a human standpoint, to deal with
17:14:08 <Samu> can't imagine from an AI
17:16:18 <Samu> but ok, the most glaring issue for now, is ship depot placement
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17:18:11 <Samu> max distance from previous destination also seems to be another issue, but i don't suppose that to be too hard for AIs to solve
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17:19:31 <Samu> is there a pathfinder that allows any distance for ships?
17:22:22 <Samu> guess it's time to restart ship servers
17:30:18 <Samu> damn, i hate to do it, but i better restart all ship AIs with NPF, it appears to be less limiting than YAPF
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19:45:03 <Alkel_U3> just finished programming homework for an interview and I have very bad feelings about it. You?
19:46:05 <Alkel_U3> I was able to think of a solution, but I'm slow :(
19:48:00 <supermop> i am researching demountable partitions for a project, and hoping i do not need to specify the manufacturer i used to work for
19:57:43 <supermop> havent been on the server much but checking in on my company today
19:58:50 <Alkel_U3> I think Farkl was the only active in the past few days
19:59:50 <Alkel_U3> I had important party business from friday till sunday and toniht was the first solid sleep i had
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20:09:55 <supermop> parties are important business
20:10:38 <supermop> andythenorth: i don't even want to think about all that stuff anymore
20:11:20 <Wolf01> now you can leave safely, I received what I purchased on England :P
20:24:51 <Samu> maybe the EU will die with it
20:25:07 <Samu> if u got the chance to leave, leave. Poor Greece didn't have that chance and see what happened to them
20:26:25 <andythenorth> it’s an argument yes
20:26:41 <andythenorth> on the other hand, leaving legitimises racists and hands power to some very distasteful people
20:26:55 <andythenorth> and the EU is not just Germanu, Britain and France are substantial
20:27:13 * andythenorth is not a fan of the EU, but a pragmatist
20:32:08 <Samu> every time i see merkel and that weelchair dude... GOD... don't make me talk
20:38:15 * Rubidium wonders whether a leave vote will actually mean that the UK stops abiding by the EU rules, because arguably the UK won't get a free trade agreement without agreeing to following the EU rules
20:38:54 <Rubidium> and in that case it'll get significantly harder to export goods to the EU
20:39:07 <Rubidium> but well... not my problem
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20:44:42 <andythenorth> Rubidium: is my problem eh
20:45:32 <supermop> Samu: if your worry is that the eu is dominated by germany, then keeping other, non german, large economies inside the EU is the solution
20:46:04 <supermop> an eu without UK is a lot more german than one with the UK
20:46:37 <supermop> tbh i'd prefer to see the US in the EU as well
20:48:19 <supermop> rather work and life are a lot more practical the fewer state and semi-state level entities with differing rules you have to abide
20:49:31 <supermop> Rubidium: my dad works for a vendor that supplies to several clients in UK and EU, even though they are an american company with majority american clients
20:49:41 <supermop> and they still have to follow all the EU rules
20:49:56 <supermop> regarding privacy, data, etc
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20:51:14 <supermop> i am in an industry less affected, and most of our offshore projects are in China, so not as much of an issue for us
20:51:31 <andythenorth> yeah, we won’t use vendors that don’t comply with safe harbour or guarantee not to offshore certain kinds of data
20:51:52 <andythenorth> we have to do the same to sell into Australia and NZ though
20:52:32 <andythenorth> on Friday we’ll have to assess our EU vendors
20:52:39 <andythenorth> as we won’t have any clear legal framework
20:52:52 <supermop> five eyes might as well make a union
20:52:56 <andythenorth> and we’ll be assessed by our EU customers
20:53:42 <supermop> andythenorth: better off if all the EU were a single state
20:54:09 <andythenorth> again, ha ha ha ha
20:55:27 <supermop> andythenorth: not saying desirable, just that you'd have fewer sets of rules to look at
20:56:00 <andythenorth> “supermop’s single global state”
20:56:03 <andythenorth> “the new world order"
21:05:05 <supermop> andythenorth: has a nice ring to it
21:05:10 <Samu> it's the solution? germany is the only country thriving with this so called "European Union", the member states have nearly no power, they are being subjugated (being milked money of) to feed the fat lords of germany
21:05:26 <Samu> i rather see it all fall apart
21:05:30 <supermop> i assume my photo will be ubiquitous in public spaces
21:05:59 <supermop> Samu: if you are an EU citizen you could move to germany
21:06:03 <andythenorth> Samu: where are you living?
21:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> * Rubidium wonders whether a leave vote will actually mean that the UK stops abiding by the EU rules, because arguably the UK won't get a free trade agreement without agreeing to following the EU rules <-- a leave vote will change nothing, because the referendum is not actually binding.
21:06:40 <supermop> ok i'd stay in port to drink the port
21:07:04 * andythenorth has found there’s no convincing leavers
21:07:13 <andythenorth> it’s an emotional decision, hard to argue with
21:10:16 <Samu> while we get €500 / month, the gers get €5000 and still think it's too little
21:11:14 <Alkel_U3> do you actually blame the eu for that?
21:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand how they even allowed it to be a discussion
21:11:48 <Alberth> actually, rich countries tend to pay more to the EU than they get
21:11:50 <Samu> i still dont get why turkey accepted being part of EU...
21:12:07 <Samu> but ok, another countryto milk money off
21:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but rich countries also benefit more from access to markets and stuff
21:13:14 <Alberth> yeah, I have no problems with it, just saying germany is not actually profiting as much as Samu claims
21:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you include the rebates that britain already gets on membership fees, it's really not that much
21:13:29 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: but a poor country with an export dependent economy probably needs an expanded market more than a big country does
21:14:06 <supermop> germany could do fine selling german goods to germans
21:14:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the brits are just still mad that they lost their "empire"
21:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: you have obviously no clue how the german economy works
21:14:46 <Eddi|zuHause> germany would be FUCKED if it exports stopped
21:14:49 <supermop> greek companies that export need non greek buyers
21:15:36 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: now yes, but one could imagine that an industrial economy of that size at least has a higher proportion of internal buyers than say, lichtenstein
21:15:37 <Alberth> that would be the definition of export, right? :)
21:15:56 <supermop> how much does Hilti sell within lichtenstein?
21:18:02 <supermop> Samu: portugal exports more to EU than it imports
21:18:39 <Samu> UK is number 1 or 2 exporter i think
21:19:01 <Samu> UK leaving EU will definitely affect Portugal
21:19:07 <supermop> per capita or gross??
21:19:41 <Samu> no idea, news were saying Port is the 4th most affected country if Uk exits
21:20:12 <Samu> port also exports a lot to ger and spain
21:20:35 <supermop> breaks it down by percentage
21:21:00 <supermop> spain naturally biggest partner for both imports and exports
21:21:39 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it should never have come to a referendum
21:22:04 <Samu> we import too much from spain
21:22:32 <Alberth> stop buying spanish sun :)
21:22:35 <Samu> it's cheaper to buy spanish products than portuguese products which make little sense
21:22:43 <Samu> but that's how it goes in portugal
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21:23:10 <NGC3982> We Swedes have a very distorted view on Spane and Portugal
21:23:18 <NGC3982> Most Swedes seems to think it's some kind of paradise.
21:23:47 <supermop> samu, surely some things are more efficient to manufacture in spain?
21:25:02 <supermop> and then some other things might make more sense to make in portugal
21:25:16 <frosch123> supermop: if you expand the "export goods" and "import goods" lists on that wiki page, the lists are almost identical
21:25:55 <supermop> frosch123: does not seem to be a highly specialized economy?
21:27:26 <supermop> but i dont see what EU membership has to do with make up of economy in that regard
21:29:18 <frosch123> me neither, i just pitty whoever adds those stuff to wiki
21:30:02 <supermop> my fiancee used to have to write regular white papers on all that stuff every 2 weeks
21:30:15 <supermop> for several economies
21:30:23 <supermop> mostly in south east asia
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21:30:45 <frosch123> well, if they change every 2 weeks, the economies might be more interesting :po
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21:31:58 <supermop> central banks reexamine that stuff all the time even if nothing changes
21:32:12 <supermop> she found it deeply, truly boring
21:32:33 <andythenorth> EU economy in FIRS
21:32:37 <andythenorth> exports: malaise
21:32:42 <andythenorth> imports: stuff from China
21:33:03 <supermop> i like malaise on my fries
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21:34:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like marmelade on my fries
21:35:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
21:36:19 <andythenorth> you have preconceptions?
21:36:25 <andythenorth> but no empirical test?
21:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that how the world works?
21:37:17 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: apparently
21:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> most of the people that hate immigrants have never actually spent more than 5 minutes with an immigrant
21:37:48 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: or more than 0
21:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> they might have passed one in the mall
21:38:21 <Rubidium> I'd rather say... most people who hate immigrants are immigrants themselves
21:38:32 <Alberth> 5 seems like a safe over approximation
21:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: in america? probably, in europe? depends how many centuries back you want to define "immigrant" :p
21:40:05 <Rubidium> do you still live in the neighbourhood you were born in?
21:40:30 <andythenorth> for the profile of people in the UK who are most concerned about immigration, yes, typically
21:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> how far is "neighbourhood"?
21:40:56 <Samu> that's surprising to see france ranked high in the exportation
21:41:15 <andythenorth> also France owns most of the UK’s utilities
21:41:18 <Rubidium> the whole point is that immigration is defined by people crossing some arbitrary boundary
21:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i was born in a hospital, i did not live there for more than 2 weeks :p
21:41:19 <andythenorth> is that export or import? :P
21:41:33 <andythenorth> Eddi immigrated to the EU :P
21:41:52 <andythenorth> dunno if he actually moved
21:41:54 <Samu> Angola will be exporting less, they got some Oil crisis now
21:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: err, i think that was the other way around. the EU moved here :p
21:42:12 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: did we colonise you? o_O
21:42:21 <Samu> uk will exit, so uk will import less from port
21:42:36 <andythenorth> UK will import about the same
21:42:53 <andythenorth> it will make fuck all real difference to trade patterns
21:43:18 <Samu> germany can very much do whatever they please
21:43:30 <andythenorth> no Germany can’t
21:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how does "financial" fit into "real trade"?
21:43:36 <Samu> france, honestly, has a lot of portuguese communities there, but i dunno
21:43:40 <andythenorth> Germany needs to sell things oversea
21:43:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no idea
21:43:50 <andythenorth> these things are above my pay grade eh
21:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because from what i hear, those people are really really scared of a "brexit"
21:44:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: move to scortland?
21:44:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: Scotland is not yet independent :)
21:44:58 <frosch123> maybe we can trade bavaria for scotland?
21:45:04 <NGC3982> I don't understand why this is a thing all of the sudden. Many EU countries has for a long time been sceptical to EU itself, but most people agree that tantruming out of it is not really good for anyone.
21:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause> did the catalans declare independence yet?
21:49:46 <andythenorth> NGC3982: it’s good for certain politicians who can gain power from it
21:50:02 <andythenorth> and it sells newspapers
21:50:51 <supermop> Samu: englishmen drink port regardless of trade agreements
21:51:35 <andythenorth> my office is in a building which was a cork warehouse, which was for the portugal trade
21:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> cork as in the city or the material?
21:52:20 <supermop> also, wouldn't you prefer the UK to buy more from Portugal, not less?
21:53:16 <Samu> I don't want an EU, pretty much.
21:53:49 <Samu> or at least Portugal being part of it
21:54:08 <supermop> ok, but what exactly is the strategy for portugal's economy in that case?
21:54:53 <Samu> we don't sell much of what is ours internally
21:55:05 <Samu> it's where our government should start
21:55:21 <supermop> who says you have that much sea
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21:56:17 <supermop> surely the EU helps to make sure bigger countries respect the laws regarding what you have
21:56:19 <frosch123> i like the brexit, it replaced the us elections in the news :)
21:56:49 <Samu> Portugal only wants to "look good" from the outside
21:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: be assured that the US elections make a comeback. they take FOREVER
21:57:00 <Samu> but it's terrible to live here
21:57:13 <supermop> frosch123: one party picked a candidate so bad it is really tough to convince people he is currently competitive in the media
21:57:41 <frosch123> i thought both parties picked bad candidate?
21:57:45 <Samu> it's good for tourists to buy spanish imported products?...
21:58:01 <Rubidium> the 2014 EU budget is interesting... I did contribution to EU - expenditures to member states, divided that by the number of inhabitants and multiplied the number by 1 000 000 to get numbers in a "decent" range. NL +260, SE +222, DE +177, UK +68, EL -482, LT -531, LU -2700 (Luxembourg really has a good deal)
21:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> was there ever a possibility of picking a non-bad candidate?
21:58:34 <supermop> so once the primaries wrapped up there is nothing meaningful for the next few months
21:58:43 <supermop> just empty rhetoric to fill time
21:59:18 <supermop> frosch123: depends on what you mean by bad
21:59:20 <Rubidium> it amazes me that Germany gets all the EU money because the budget does not seem to confirm that. In absolute terms Poland gets most money, after that France, Spain and only then Germany
22:00:09 <supermop> but i hold 'deeply unpopular' to be less bad than 'racist provocateur'
22:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not sure what these numbers actually say
22:00:38 <Rubidium> in absolute terms DE pays most, then France, then Italy followed by the UK
22:01:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it should be "cost" per capita according to the EU budget to be part of the EU
22:02:17 <frosch123> euro per year and capita?
22:02:30 <Rubidium> yeah, it seems like it
22:02:41 <frosch123> or 10^-6 euro per year and capita?
22:03:25 <supermop> Rubidium: none of the arguments i hear ever seem to account for population for some reason
22:03:28 <frosch123> nah, that would be unlikely :)
22:03:36 <Rubidium> given the numbers for contribution being 6 391 for the NLs, I assume it to be 6 391 000 000 euro's
22:03:48 <Samu> our most prominent problem is Isabel dos Santos
22:04:06 <Rubidium> (being 6 391 in the table I got)
22:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a lot
22:04:20 <Rubidium> that's where the 10^-6 comes from
22:04:25 <Samu> that lady is taking control of major economic stuff from Portugal, her position is....
22:05:03 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 6*10^9 is more plausible than 6*10^6 :)
22:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but it probably should be compared to the rest of the budget
22:05:12 <Samu> she owns some major bank stuff from Portugal
22:05:59 <Samu> the risk is high, now with Angola entering a crisis
22:06:05 <Rubidium> and I doubt the Dutch can afford 380 000 per capita, and 0,38 per capita seems a bit small given the large amounts of subsidies
22:06:20 <Samu> and her nomination to rule even more stuff, she's being given too much power
22:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i always have this figure in my head that 50% of the EU budget is for farming subsidies, but apparently that was only valid in 2000, since then, the farming subsidies stayed constant, but the EU budget grew by like factor 8
22:06:57 <frosch123> yeah, i think it was reduced
22:07:07 <frosch123> now it is spend on banks :p
22:08:09 <frosch123> can we cancel brittish loans when they leave eu?
22:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds unlikely :p
22:08:36 <Samu> wish i could undestand better these economic exposures, but Portugal is in a tough situation already with Angola entering a crisis, and with UK exiting EU.
22:08:37 <Rubidium> frosch123: I hope those loans are in Euros
22:09:46 <supermop> Samu: can study macroeconomics
22:10:30 <supermop> although if uk leaves EU you will not be able to use your econ degree to get a job in london anymore
22:11:18 <supermop> my fiancee was an economist for years until she became so bored with it
22:11:45 <Samu> that would be good, if only our country was properly decent at keeping their workforce
22:12:00 <Alkel_U3> oh my, Limbo for free on Steam
22:12:53 <Samu> they're probably migrating to switzerland of france, most likely
22:13:13 <Samu> cus working in portugal is bad
22:13:46 <supermop> why is working in portugal bad?
22:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: a discussion in another channel said that offer already expired
22:14:16 <Samu> why earn €800 if u can earn £2000 or €2500
22:15:12 <supermop> depends on what you want in life
22:15:19 <supermop> and what you want to pay in rent
22:15:46 <supermop> i have many friends who have remained in my home town
22:15:59 <Alkel_U3> Eddi|zuHause: ah, that must've been 15 ,ins ago, then
22:16:02 <supermop> where there are fewer jobs, and less pay
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22:16:23 <supermop> but they enjoy it i guess
22:17:48 <supermop> i have the freedom to move about within a large country of 330M people, to choose the city that is the best fit in terms of cost of living, jobs, and culture that i want
22:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: more like 2 hours
22:18:04 <supermop> relative freedom - it is expensive to move
22:18:36 <supermop> and no city is a perfect fit
22:18:47 <supermop> but at least i can leave a bad area
22:19:48 <supermop> the EU brings some measure of that to europe
22:21:04 <supermop> if one country is short of labor, and one country is short of jobs, why not let people from the second country work in the first?
22:21:39 <frosch123> supermop: that only works for high-tier jobs
22:22:09 <frosch123> for low-tier jobs the language barriers are too high
22:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the perception is that no country is actually short on labor
22:24:11 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: that is the perception, sure, but some countries certainly do have a need to attract more labor, which is why they see wages higher than others
22:26:24 <supermop> i certainly do not think, however, that every EU country must have it's own independent heavy industrial base, selling exclusively within its own borders
22:27:38 <supermop> and UK leaving the EU is not suddenly going to make british steel somehow competive again
22:28:42 <supermop> if the UK comes up with the money to subsidize its steel, then what customer country would want to buy that rather than subsidize their own steel production
22:30:27 <supermop> i'm not even sure what people are arguing for, other than spite
22:30:47 <supermop> every leave argument i've seen boils down to spite
22:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i have seen a lot of arguments either way
22:50:55 <Samu> i'm posting stuff to flyspray, some fixes of my own, but i don't know the whole process of posting bugfixes
22:51:13 <Samu> what does it take to accept a fix from a random guy?
22:53:19 <Samu> ah i see alberth rejected my proposal for save empty script
23:18:10 <Samu> in 8 years, SImpleAI server will finish
23:20:03 <Samu> ship servers are taxing cpu quite heavily
23:20:39 <ST2> yeah, it's a known fact - that's why most of online communities limits them ^^
23:21:27 <ST2> pathfinder eats cpu's on there - or burn them, in case you dnt have the server on a well cooled datacenter xD
23:22:24 <ST2> I guess that's why one of our rented machines are in a Canadian datacenter xD
23:22:28 <Samu> i got some AIs that are heavy
23:23:09 <Samu> nocab is using 2700 ships atm, but most of these ships are blocked by his own ship depots :( the pathfinder isn't too keen on blockages
23:24:12 <Samu> otvi suffers from the same
23:24:25 <Samu> otvi spams ship depots, like they're trees or something... it's really bad
23:25:05 <Samu> then i got a nocab server utterly slowed down since 3 days ago
23:25:28 <Samu> these 3 servers are taxing 37.5% cpu
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23:25:46 <Samu> 2 spectating instances are also taxing 25%
23:26:39 <Samu> the rest is 1 more train server about to finish, 4 more ship servers and respective spectating instances
23:26:56 <Samu> everything counted taxes 100%, oh well
23:29:48 <Samu> hmm i really don't get some pathfinders, it's like none is good
23:31:10 <Samu> NPF advantage, ships can have orders of any distance, but apparently it fails for short distances
23:31:45 <Samu> feels like some AIs prefer certain pathfinders than others
23:32:15 <Samu> I'm disappointed, I don't know how to test these AIs
23:37:30 <Samu> how do i set the max distance between routes for YAPF?
23:38:05 <Samu> YAPF isn't as dumb as NPF, but the max distance limitation ruins ditactorai
23:39:02 <Samu> YAPF ruins DitactorAI.... I can't submit the AIs to the same parameters
23:39:45 <Samu> and the Original ruins everybody
23:40:27 * Samu slaps Wormnest around a bit with a large fishbot
23:42:03 <Samu> testing ships is becoming harder than i expected
23:43:20 <Wormnest> There´s a good reason why ships are not used as much as other vehicles, certainly in high amounts
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23:47:22 <Samu> think i'm gonna do this the hard way
23:48:20 <Samu> trans YAPF, trans Original, trans NPF
23:48:41 <Samu> DitactorAI YAPF, DitactorAI Original, DitactorAI NPF
23:48:57 <Samu> instead of 6 testings, it's 18
23:49:03 <Samu> but at least it's fairer
continue to next day ⏵
