IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-06-18
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00:02:48 <Samu> wormai is gonna be tested as the last one, i'm doing it in abc order
00:04:00 <Samu> maybe not the last one. if some ais crash due to taking long to save, i will test them again, at the end of those that can survive autosaves
00:06:04 <Samu> choochoo is always faking crashes.. i kinda hate him lol
00:06:10 <Wormnest> My fixed version of nocab should perform better than the original at leat I think so
00:06:17 <Wormnest> but its not finished yet
00:07:14 <Wormnest> I dont like that in ChooChoo either but what can you do lol
00:08:54 <Samu> dictatorai doesn't build a train
00:09:48 <Samu> denver & rio grande is surviving
00:10:07 <Samu> his default values for bridge lenght is really bad
00:10:21 <Wormnest> The current version of Dictator has problems with trains, it often crashes when handling trains
00:10:52 <Samu> it doesn't start anything, just picks the engine, then gives up
00:11:53 <Samu> dbg: [script] [0] [I] Forcing build: We have 0 vehicle running ! dbg: [script] [0] [I] Hard times going on, unleashing routes dbg: [script] [0] [I] Analysing the task pool dbg: [script] [0] [E] cEngineLib: Invalid vehicleID or engineID : #7 NOAI error: ERR_NONE
00:12:00 <Wormnest> Hm might be that Im using a changed version not sure.
00:12:33 <Samu> that's all i see on his log everytime it tries to "unleash" routes
00:12:55 <Samu> doesn't build any rail track or station, just nothing
00:21:22 <Samu> nocab crashed of course, so i'm testing 7
00:21:36 <Samu> AdmiralAI is beating everybody else
00:22:20 <Samu> FastPTPAI had quite a start, leaving everybody else in the dust, but now... not really
00:23:28 <Wormnest> DictatorAI has a forum message suggesting it has trains disabled probably because of bugs
00:26:43 <Samu> most profitable train, for now, goes to AIAI
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02:27:01 <Quinch> Hi folks. Quick question, what would currently be decent competitive AIs in a solo game?
02:59:18 <Quinch> Also, for acceleration, what's better to have, power or TE?
03:01:23 <sim-al2> Technically, they're mutually inclusive
03:01:59 <sim-al2> Maximizing power will be necessary if you want to maintain good acceleration though
03:06:26 <sim-al2> I've heard that Admiral AI is very competitive, but I haven't tried out personally
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09:04:52 *** ChanServ changes topic to "1.6.1-RC1, 1.6.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | #openttd.dev if this channel is really spammy"
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09:27:16 <peter1138> hmm, this mouse pointer behaviour is bugging me :S
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10:07:43 <Wolf01> meh, I'm stupid, I reinstalled the apps on my phone so I lost all the related data
10:31:49 <Alberth> you seem to be doing a lot of installing stuff
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10:32:41 <Wolf01> I replaced the SD card yesterday
10:33:10 <Wolf01> and the phone said "there's a problem with the app, reinstall it"
10:33:20 <Wolf01> for all the apps I installed in the SD
10:34:09 <Wolf01> the problem is that if put back the old SD, it sees the apps I didn't reinstall, but not the reinstalled ones
10:35:00 <Wolf01> and in the new SD it sees the reinstalled ones but not the old ones
10:36:28 <Wolf01> I should have moved all the apps in the internal memory instead of copying them
10:42:15 <Alberth> ugh, pseudo-smart software :(
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11:44:09 <Wolf01> bsod copying a file to the SD O_o
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11:54:51 <Wolf01> nice, the sd seem to be TFU
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12:22:01 <Wolf01> mmmh, a problem with the usb hub root now :|
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12:52:37 <Samu> Wormnest: what do you think of that score now
12:55:03 <Samu> gelignAIte wins the efficiency column, and that is odd
12:55:35 <Samu> but I don't know of a better formula
12:56:28 <Samu> formula is: best income of the last 2 years
12:56:45 <Samu> formula is: best income of the last 2 years / total number of road pieces
12:56:49 <frosch123> hmm, i guess you do not need to barrel up oil anymore, when you chain of refineries arrived at the next oilfield
12:59:28 <Rubidium> Samu: that reminds me of a trick by some AIs to build bridges instead of road pieces because the bridge was cheaper
12:59:56 <Rubidium> (and the vehicles weren't fast enough yet to require a faster bridge)
13:02:23 <Samu> hmm how are bridges and tunnels counted towards road pieces?
13:03:22 <Alberth> start with empty world, check road pieces, build bridge, check road pieces, build tunnel, check road pieces
13:05:56 <Samu> tunnel entrance, 8 road pieces
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13:06:58 <Samu> 8 pieces per each tunnel and bridge section
13:08:20 <Rubidium> tunnels are generally more expensive to maintain
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13:22:56 <Wormnest> Samu: I would add a description of what efficiency is to the forum post since that is not obvious in itself
13:23:30 <Wormnest> Besides that maybe change efficiency to also take into account number of road stations relative to number of vehicles?
13:24:28 <Wormnest> Although then you might favor ai´s that make longer routes relative to those that favor more shorter routes
13:29:20 <Samu> how do I make the relation between road stations, number of vehicles, income and road pieces in a single formula :P
13:31:29 <Samu> number of vehicles / number of road stations
13:31:37 <Samu> let me see what this results in
13:33:32 <Wormnest> The problem with that can be ofcourse that ai´s that completely fill up the roads with vehicles get a high score
13:33:59 <Wormnest> which isn´t very efficient
13:35:55 <Samu> nocab averages 38 rvs per station
13:38:19 <Samu> i don't really know what this score shows
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13:41:29 <Samu> cluelessplus got 356/356 stations served
13:43:39 <Samu> (total number of vehicles / total number of stations) * (number of stations served / total number of stations) = ???
14:01:53 <Wormnest> In the end it all depends on what you define as efficient
14:02:30 <Wormnest> While most ai´s will just try to get the highest profits
14:02:34 <Samu> that formula is giving a very bad result to nocab
14:02:45 <Samu> and giving a very huge result for mogul
14:02:56 <Samu> I don't think this accounts for anything
14:03:10 <Wormnest> Well nocab is careless with road pieces and stations
14:03:43 <Samu> still calculating, wonder what result terron gets
14:08:09 <Samu> PAXLink beats NoCAB for worst result
14:10:45 <Samu> 7.506 for terron, not the highest score, but also not the lowest
14:12:06 <Samu> best score: 36.095 for mogul
14:12:27 <Samu> worst score: 1.079 for PAXLink
14:13:49 <Samu> seems like it favours least number of serviced stations over very long distances with the most road vehicles used
14:14:17 <Alberth> this is how you can prove anything with statistics
14:14:34 <Samu> oh, nocab actually serves a huge number of stations
14:14:47 <Samu> and has an even huger number of stations not being served
14:17:20 <Samu> RoadAI got 2nd best score, 14.360, CluelessPlus 3rd best score, 14.042
14:18:08 * Rubidium wonders how much rail one is going to replace when it takes 48 hours (busy bit of track closed for 48 hours for unscheduled maintenance since Friday afternoon)
14:23:01 <Samu> i can't see any relationship by just looking at their stations, seems like the formula makes no sense
14:25:50 <Wolf01> I bet this will be a hard treasure hunt... the game data aren't on the dedicated folder
14:26:43 <Samu> clueless plus if both buses and industries
14:26:50 <Samu> mogul is pure industries
14:27:36 <Samu> what they have in common is the number of vehicles per stations
14:27:56 <Samu> their construction methods differ a lot
14:28:48 <Samu> roadai distances aren't even that large as the others
14:30:05 <Samu> seems like roadai would be a good cargodist AI
14:30:39 <Samu> it makes different connections by reusing the same stations
14:31:10 <Samu> mogul is simple greedy point to point
14:31:35 <Samu> with the hugest distances from the 3
14:32:26 <Samu> no reusing of stations for other connections, just a mass number of vehicles for each connection, like 44, 37 and so
14:32:49 <Samu> well, whatever, the formula doesn't seem to prove anything
14:33:55 <Samu> seems more like a "station reuse" formula rather than an efficiency formula
14:34:51 <Samu> not even reuse, ehm... mogul doesn't reuse
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14:48:13 <Samu> denver & rio grande is doing something stupid
14:48:22 <Samu> there are no more diesel engines
14:48:43 <Samu> since he can't replace the trains, he's just selling those turner turbos as they get old, no replacement
14:49:06 <Samu> his profit graph is slowly diminishing
14:49:18 <Samu> why don't he convert to maglev
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14:50:31 <Samu> MailAI must be stuck ever since electrified rail became available, that's since monorail
14:50:51 <Samu> his log is repeating the same thing everytime
14:51:58 <Samu> i'm testing on sub-arctic, there's no "electrified railway" at least, but he seems to be dealing with this the wrong way
14:52:16 <Samu> there's a jump directly from diesel railway to monorail, which is electrified
14:53:56 <Samu> AIAI server has attracted 4 human companies
14:55:35 <Samu> FastPTPAI also attracted some human players, he's still beating them yet, but... he's not that great past the early game
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16:45:12 <Wolf01> I bet tomorrow I'll make some of my friends stunned, I'll bring my lego slizers collection to the exposition :P
17:01:05 <andythenorth> suddenly game is not dying
17:01:08 <andythenorth> not newgrf, anyway
17:01:15 <andythenorth> world and dog is making things
17:34:43 <V453000> considering to buy a macbook
17:34:54 <V453000> had enough of win10 and moderately shitty laptop
17:35:37 <Wolf01> buy a good laptop at half the price of a shitty macbook
17:37:01 <Wolf01> (not that gimp is a shitty software, it's just difficult to use as hell)
17:37:22 <Alberth> nah, you haven't tried blender yet, then :p
17:37:59 <Wolf01> I think I removed any memory about it
17:38:16 <Wolf01> now I use only sketchup
17:38:34 <Alberth> it's probably a problem with professional software, it's impossible to use for non-professionals
17:46:12 <V453000> yeah I just converted dollars to czk
17:46:25 <V453000> thing is I don't need performance when I am on the fly
17:46:40 <V453000> but a laptop with normal disk and windows shit, is almost unusable
17:46:47 <V453000> it feels like it is 15 years old
17:46:55 <V453000> linux is not an option
17:47:01 <V453000> due to adobe and shit
17:47:16 <Alberth> then the choice is simplez
17:48:11 <V453000> well normal laptops with SSDs aren't exactly cheap either
17:48:12 <Wolf01> my sister purchased a laptop with win10 and ssd for just 1100€ to work as colourist... and play games
17:48:22 <andythenorth> V453000 you know my opinion :P
17:48:34 <V453000> for 1100 euros I can have a 13 inch macbook air
17:48:42 <andythenorth> yes and you would regret it
17:48:52 <andythenorth> macbook air is like buying a calculator
17:48:59 <andythenorth> they are underpowered PoS
17:49:14 <V453000> guess that is exactly what I needed to hear :P
17:49:15 <andythenorth> it’s a poser’s device
17:49:23 <Wolf01> my lumia 950xl is better, at least I can play minecraft
17:49:26 <andythenorth> why the Macbook Air exists, I do not know
17:49:42 <V453000> so if air is trash, are any of the others better andythenorth ?
17:49:49 <andythenorth> if you want an underpowered lightweight computer, buy the 12” macbook
17:50:02 <andythenorth> otherwise buy a proper Macbook Pro, that is a proper computer
17:50:31 <V453000> I don't want to spend that much on it probably, but the lowest Pro would come in question
17:51:03 <andythenorth> I use mine for work, and usually they last 1-2 years
17:51:13 <V453000> dualcore 1,1 ghz sounds like a typo
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17:51:37 <andythenorth> mine costs me £2.19 per day if it lasts 2 years
17:51:44 <andythenorth> I spend that much on coffee
17:52:45 <Alberth> so no more coffee for andy :)
17:52:50 <andythenorth> when I get a new one the old one is sold, and macs usually sell used in uk for ~30% of new cost
17:53:17 <andythenorth> so actually more like £1.40 / day
17:54:03 <andythenorth> do you need a lot of storage?
17:54:23 <andythenorth> Apple sell SSDs *expensively* (of course)
17:54:44 <V453000> storage is what desktop is for :)
17:55:07 <V453000> does it run factorio? :D
17:55:57 <andythenorth> and bump to 16GB
17:56:23 <andythenorth> mine is about equivalent, mostly not slow
17:56:30 <V453000> that is what I am looking at
17:57:06 <andythenorth> lightweight, solid, quick, battery life insane compared to my last one
17:57:29 <V453000> how does it handle overheating when under load for a few hours?
17:57:38 <V453000> cause I feel like every single laptop I had, had huge issues with that
17:57:57 <andythenorth> it gets hot, if that’s what you mean
17:58:05 <andythenorth> like, you wouldn’t want it on bare skin
17:58:29 <V453000> normal then :D is that the reason for why it lasts "just 2 years"?
17:58:39 <andythenorth> no, it’s just there’s usually a new one
17:59:17 <andythenorth> this one dates from 2013 or so
18:00:16 <Wolf01> the only reason for me to purchase a mac is because I might need to compile apps for iOS
18:00:20 <V453000> might just wait until current laptop finally melts
18:00:33 <andythenorth> FWIW I have always had the expected Apple level of service
18:00:51 <andythenorth> I know people who haven’t, I know a lot of mac users, and some get lemons and Apple don’t always do the right thing
18:01:10 <andythenorth> but I have owned probably 20 macs now, and the company has owned maybe over 100
18:01:15 <andythenorth> probably more tbh
18:01:37 <andythenorth> never had a lemon or a problem Apple refused to fix
18:02:34 * andythenorth will now change subject to trucks :P
18:03:54 <V453000> I will consider it, but definitely not right now
18:04:18 <V453000> is shitload of money for a vacation / internet computer
18:05:05 <V453000> will probably rather invest it into some nice extra car stuff later on
18:12:55 <V453000> might just slap some SSD into the current laptop and see how it fucks
18:13:36 <V453000> I would expect a 500 euro laptop to work somewhat ok
18:14:50 <Wolf01> V453000, about the rocket, what about use it for express delivery? you could make 200 silos for 200 different items and load them up like trains, then request a parachuted payload of stuff from every remote place of the map where you are
18:15:58 <Wolf01> it will cost you a lot just to receive a bunch of rails XD
18:16:18 <V453000> but controlling the coordinates with combinators would be fun ... I would like something less "space rocket"though, more surface ish :P
18:17:18 <frosch123> use the rocket to shoot mirrors into orbit
18:17:23 <frosch123> the more mirrors, the less night
18:19:56 <Samu> number of recently serviced-stations is misleading
18:20:10 <Wolf01> btw, radar satellite and ion cannon satellite would really be a good choice
18:20:55 <Samu> if the station is both lorry and bus, and i only service a bus, it still counts as 2 stations
18:21:07 <Samu> counts that i serviced both
18:21:27 <frosch123> Wolf01: isn't the "lore" of "ion cannons" that they only work against machinery?
18:21:37 <Samu> is this correct? i only serviced the bus part of the station
18:22:19 <Wolf01> nah, they blew up the Temple of Nod and Kane with the ion cannon
18:23:45 <Samu> look at the tooltip, then look at the orders, i've only serviced 2 stations, but it counts 4
18:23:56 <frosch123> maybe it needs a laser drill like in those sc2 missions
18:24:05 <Wolf01> the only thing I never understood it was on RA2 when you had tesla troopers which were shielded against the electricity... and they where killed by enemy tesla coils too
18:25:15 <Samu> the airport is not serviced at the moment
18:28:00 <Samu> does anyone have origina ttd at hand?
18:28:08 <Samu> how does it count there?
18:28:22 <Samu> or there is no detailed info?
18:30:11 <Samu> is the counter bugged or is it working as intended? it seems bugged for me
18:33:46 <Alberth> does original ttd even have detailed performance? looks a bit unlikely
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18:36:59 <Samu> if the counter is counting differently than I think, then i probably have some skewed results in the AI score test
18:37:22 <Alberth> it's all arbitrary numbers anyway :)
18:38:39 <Alberth> if the stations are all pretty much the same, the ratio isn't that far off
18:40:34 <Samu> maybe i'm misinterpreting the tooltip?
18:41:02 <Samu> it doesn't seem right anyway
18:42:07 <Alberth> tooltip seems to use "station" in two different meanings, to me
18:52:43 <Samu> seems wrong in my opinion, it is artificially inflating the performance of a company
18:54:00 <Alberth> there is no objective notion for "performance", imho
18:54:02 <Samu> (and skewing my results)
18:54:33 <Alberth> the concept is too generic
18:54:58 <Rubidium> it's like asking what the best car is
18:55:52 <Rubidium> without exactly defining what "best" is, there is no way of saying
19:02:06 <Alberth> Am I right in thinking that fileio.* is low-level file io, fios_gui.cpp is the gui for file operations, and fios.* is for everything in-between?
19:02:35 <Alberth> Trying to add a scenario tar file format, but I consistently fail
19:03:06 <Alberth> there seems something wrong with fios.* but I can't put my finger on it
19:06:13 <Samu> hi glx, did you find a way to fix yesterday's redirector stuff?:o
19:06:31 <glx> no, it seems MS broke stuff
19:13:53 <Samu> the first train AI is reaching 2051
19:16:51 <frosch123> Alberth: look a the console commands for browsing the filesystem
19:17:05 <frosch123> and then open the "load game" window in parallel
19:17:14 <frosch123> iirc that shows a lot of things that are "wrong" :p
19:18:22 <frosch123> the fios stuff is quite state-ful
19:18:29 <frosch123> in places thate are usually not
19:30:22 <Samu> next 2 are MailAI and AdmiralAI, nearly finishing at the same time
19:31:02 <Samu> only 23 days separating each other
19:31:28 <Samu> once again AdmiralAI surprises me how it effectively uses CPU
19:31:48 <Samu> and while having 2100+ trains
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19:49:19 <Samu> Denver & Rio Grande finished
19:52:23 <Samu> the last 10 years for Denver & Rio Grande was bad
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20:15:19 <Alberth> frosch123: ugh, indeed
20:15:35 <Alberth> all too old and just extended locally
20:21:12 <Rubidium> andythenorth: how "fast" is "fast" in that clip?
20:22:59 <andythenorth> Rubidium: I’m guessing 60mph
20:23:58 <andythenorth> Wolf01: the first guy (black jumper, spikey dark hair)
20:24:08 <andythenorth> looks like management
20:26:57 <andythenorth> looks like me too :P
20:27:30 <andythenorth> but is too angry about EU referendum campaigning
20:28:25 <frosch123> maybe read the german media about it :) not sure whether they would make you laugh or cry though :p
20:29:57 <andythenorth> in or out, I didn’t really care so much
20:31:09 <Samu> DictatorAI reached 2051, but without building a single train
20:31:56 <Alberth> and not bankrupt? that's good :p
20:33:22 <Samu> think i'm gonna exclude it from the list
20:34:59 <Samu> AIAI is the last to finish
20:35:15 <Samu> slows down the server from time to time
20:35:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: one article with a big headline talks about some small town, which once had an brittish army place, and what happened after it closed down. result: bakeries stay, brothels vanish
20:36:13 <Samu> choochoo is finishing in a few months, it kind of disappointed
20:37:05 <Samu> doesn't replace old vehicles, doesn't upgrade them, keeps building routes but there's no more diesel engines available
20:37:22 <Samu> doesn't switch to monorail or maglev either
20:39:14 <Samu> oh, he has a few unfinished monorail and maglev routes
20:39:43 <Samu> i expected better, maybe limiting number of buses to 0 is handicaping him somewhat?
20:39:55 <Samu> I don't know what went wrong
20:42:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: hard to know what general conclusion to draw from that :)
20:44:20 <Samu> AIAI server is having fierce human interaction
20:46:08 <Samu> last one remaining, AIAI
20:46:25 <Samu> i don't have time to test more AIs today
20:52:17 <Arveen> you need an AI to test AIs
21:12:05 <Wormnest> Also why do you open up your ai test servers for humans if you want to compare them under equal circumstances
21:19:46 <Alberth> original author of NoCAB is gone and no longer reachable? else you could ask for ownership of the project
21:20:38 <Wormnest> I think he replied once this year
21:21:12 <Wormnest> I don´t really want to take over just wanted a working ai without problems :p
21:24:22 <Alberth> ownership is just taking over the stick :)
21:24:34 <Alberth> you can do as much or as less as you like
21:25:59 <Alberth> but otherwise, WorkingCAB ? :)
21:36:43 <Wormnest> The name is not gonna be a problem lol. Let´s if I can come up with some save/load improvements first.
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23:07:51 <Samu> AIAI server is ending, last month
23:08:28 <Samu> he beat the humans in profit, i'm surprised
23:08:50 <Samu> red human surpassed him once
23:12:22 <Samu> AIAI created a log size of 580 MB (608.456.870 bytes)
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