IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-06-17
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00:31:17 *** supermop_ has joined #openttd
00:47:46 <supermop_> Alkel_U3: about to bankrupt
01:01:09 <supermop_> my network seems to primarily be transfering passengers not delivering them
01:15:10 <supermop_> ok dangers of infrasharing
01:15:43 <supermop_> hopefully the other guys are not too bothered by all of my track suddenly dissappearing
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02:00:06 <Samu> i'm using wsirc.com instead
02:03:32 <Samu> took me 7 days non-stop :o hope it interests someoney
02:03:56 <Samu> I want to move on to testing trains next
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07:29:42 <Alkel_U3> supermop_: that seems to answer my question whether the profit shares are calculated properly
07:49:07 <Alkel_U3> supermop_: I hope you don't mind me hijacking that west part. I need tha trains to have a destination
08:35:14 <Alkel_U3> supermop_: your company's end had an adverse effect on both Fargl's and my companies' profits. I even ran in red numbers until the flow of cargo changed
08:57:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
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13:37:04 <Samu> just started the train competition for AIs
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15:30:52 <supermop_> Alkel_U3: technically i don't get paid for any passengers travelling on my lines if their final delivery is made by your vehicle
15:31:36 <supermop_> so effectively most of my services were running as charities
15:31:54 <supermop_> i think only one of my trams made profit
15:32:50 <Alkel_U3> supermop_: yeah, I hoped the patch would split the income when the cargo transfers to another company. Unfortunately it's not that case
15:33:21 <supermop_> it would be fine if both networks were similar in size and topology
15:33:38 <supermop_> as we'd each have a similar share of final deliveries
15:34:02 <Alkel_U3> yeah, you lacked enough large cities
15:34:04 <supermop_> but that last mountain line did me in once i finally connected it to fargliders station
15:34:32 <supermop_> because that was just moving passengers between your two networks
15:34:48 <supermop_> when i had it still stopping short it was making a ton of money
15:35:44 <supermop_> that and when i accidentally rasied some ocean land i lost all of my cash cushion that would have let me build out more money making routes in the east and industrial services to recover
15:36:12 <supermop_> as the mountain line was intended to eventually serve many industrial routes
15:37:50 <supermop_> the last few moments i tried starting a separate company to see if i could then buy out my failing one, but couldn't get cash fast enough before it went under
15:39:10 <Alkel_U3> too bad I wasn't around, maybe I'd buy it :P
15:39:13 <supermop_> should have left the server once i got the bankrupcy warnings as i knew was going to take about 1M and a year or so to recover, then you could have bought out or loaned the capital
15:39:48 <Alkel_U3> well, I don't know about the infra sharing next time, seems pretty double edged
15:40:11 <supermop_> was working alright for me until the end,
15:40:18 <supermop_> i wasn't making a ton of money
15:40:26 <supermop_> but at least solvent
15:41:19 <Alkel_U3> I hoped I could at least reclaim the abandoned station names but apparently they were tied to the old company to prevent stealing?
15:41:41 <supermop_> i don't play the game to make tonnes of money or build huge things, i play with the goals to make an interesting network, and to 'provide service' to as many of the 'citizens' of the map as possible
15:42:02 <Alkel_U3> yeah, me too, generally
15:42:54 <supermop_> so for me losing money and sharing infrastructure are realizations of those goals in a way
15:43:17 <supermop_> i guess IS needs contracts or royalties or something
15:44:08 <supermop_> like pay 1M over 5 years as part of agreement to move these x passengers
15:44:57 <supermop_> you'd have to fake it by gifting money and guessing what the worth of a loss making service is to other players
15:46:06 <Alkel_U3> there's just the fixed fee for using the infrastructure, but that's apparently completely inadequate
15:46:37 <supermop_> well on our map we didn't share trackage
15:47:01 <supermop_> only platforms at terminal stations
15:47:58 <supermop_> i tried to get farglider to go in on a shared double track line via helan, but he prefered to bypass
15:48:17 <Alkel_U3> I'd say it would make sense to split the cargo's trip to segments isolated to each company and have them paid separately
15:48:46 <supermop_> well i don't think any of my freight was on shared infrastructure
15:49:30 <Alkel_U3> he wasn't too happy about being presented with that without his input. Hell, people, communicate :P (I told him to sort it out...)
15:49:56 <supermop_> Alkel_U3: then you have the issue that 3 players could conspired to send passengers on a round -the world trip to the next town over
15:50:09 <supermop_> and each would get paid for a long trip
15:50:22 <supermop_> even though the passengers only travelled a few tiles
15:50:26 <Alkel_U3> I know, it's not bulletproof
15:50:46 <Alkel_U3> but you can do that in singleplayer, too
15:51:07 <Alkel_U3> just have the train go around three times
15:51:13 <supermop_> although in real life if you travel from London to Paris via Shanghai, you almost always will pay more
15:51:29 <supermop_> it is up to you to buy the cheaper direct ticket
15:51:36 <Alkel_U3> I run some of my trains on Fargl's track
15:52:07 <Alkel_U3> anyway, later. Leaving home, parties ahead
15:53:33 <supermop_> well i tried to explain how my track was making him more money and only costing me, but i guess everyone has different goals
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16:09:56 <Samu> the convert utility of glx doesn't work for my patched openttd builds
16:10:30 <Samu> openttd.exe -D -c D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.cfg >> D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.log 2>&1
16:11:25 <Samu> it only dumps this into the log "dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version 1.6.1-RC1"
16:12:28 <Alberth> 2>&1 looks like a unix shell trick to me
16:12:38 <Alberth> or does windows do that too?
16:13:02 <Samu> i don't know, that's how glx teached me
16:13:32 <Samu> it works for openttd builds downloaded from openttd.org, but not when i build openttd with visual studio
16:16:23 <Alberth> don't know what the compile farm uses
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16:33:11 <Samu> 3&>1 wrote this to log file "D:\OpenTTD\Core8>exit"
16:42:18 <Wolf01> boring migration ever... 32GB SD -> 128GB SD
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16:46:25 <Wolf01> at least this time I checked the right format instead of copying everything and format it after :|
16:47:29 <Alberth> dd would probably work, at the cost of 96GB :p
16:47:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: you could make a company picking up a passenger pay the current transfer estimate to the company that last transported it, but that means the transfer estimate has now a gameplay effect, which worsens its inherent wrongness...
16:49:17 <Wolf01> meh 1.5 hours to copy everything...
16:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or you could eliminate transfer credits alltogether, and treat every delivery as final, but this opens up "back and forth" transporting abuse
16:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: 90% of working with computers is watching it do something automatically
16:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i used to have a patch eliminating transfer credits
16:50:49 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: i guess 'wrong' at least isn't ripe for abuse
16:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but i can't look for it right now
16:51:23 <supermop_> and any payment, even too little would be better than running a loss making railway as charity
16:51:23 <Alkel_U3> yeah, I know. Thought about both way you described and don't like any of them
16:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: transfer estimate is usually too high
16:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: so the person running the last leg is screwed now
16:52:02 <Alberth> Wolf01: can't just continue to work? disk will copy also if you don't watch :)
16:52:31 <supermop_> otherwise any company acting as common carrier will eventually collapse or be bought at discount by its beneficiaries
16:52:57 <supermop_> Alberth: maybe he gets paid for those 1.5 hours
16:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: but instead of the "backbone" just running into its own running costs, the last leg can amount huge deficits
16:53:39 <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: what if you were paid a royalty on the transfer credit - like between 10 and 60% of the estimate
16:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the estimate is already configurable in that way
16:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that figure is usually for "writing into the cache", which is complete nonsense
16:54:41 <supermop_> so you are still encouraged to seek out your own profitable routes, but you can hopefully at least cover costs when carrying traffic for others
16:54:51 <Alkel_U3> the estimate might still be very wrong. Sometimes the last vehicle in the chain making the final delivery will display loss
16:55:40 <Alkel_U3> also I guess it gets more smudged with too many hops
16:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the only "real" solution is to store the travel times and distances for each company separately, which hugely inflates storage for cargopackets
16:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why nobody ever implemented that
16:56:34 <Wolf01> even while reading, I'm copying over usb3 to SSD and it transfers to 4MB/s
16:57:23 <Alkel_U3> I'd be willing to live with that, if it fit into, say 5 Mbps, but otherwise I can see how that would be a problem
16:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: bandwidth is not an issue, but memory usage
16:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> (and processing time)
16:58:43 <Alkel_U3> right, I got that wrong
16:59:37 <Samu> there's a difference on both openttd.exes :( 13,5 MB (14.243.328 bytes) vs 13,4 MB (14.075.904 bytes)
17:03:10 <Alberth> do computers have multiple USB controllers nowadays?
17:05:26 <Alkel_U3> yes, my 2-3 year old board apparently has three
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17:06:43 <Alberth> I only use USB for keyboard and mouse, so nothing even remotely fast, but for multiple disks that should work
17:15:59 <Samu> I still don't know how to build OpenTTD without getting that 'M' in the version
17:18:28 <Alberth> don't modify the source
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17:19:21 <Samu> errors about missing files
17:19:46 <Samu> #include <unicode/coll.h>
17:23:36 <Samu> dmusici.h, lzo.h, ft2build.h, unicode/uversion.h, lzma.h, lzo/lzo1x.h, zlib.h, unicode/coll.h
17:24:12 <Samu> how do i make it so that visual studio doesn't complain about missing files and also doesn't put an 'M' into the version?
17:26:26 <Alberth> supply the missing files, I'd say
17:27:34 <Alberth> maybe you can disable unicode too, but that's a bit tricky with foreign languages
17:28:44 <Alberth> likely, you have to compile some libraries and add them to visual studio for openttd tofind
17:50:36 <_johannes> Hey, I have the railroad network exporter finished, however, I'd like to bring in the json library I wrote as a library... is this OK, and are git submodules suggested?
17:51:39 <_johannes> What I mean is, I have a file named json.h which is not OpenTTD specific, so I have it as a library on github... how do I use it in OpenTTD? with submodules?
17:57:06 <Alberth> as a library, probably
17:57:46 <Alberth> bunch of .h files, and a .so/.a/.dll file
17:58:38 <Alberth> other option is to add it as source code in a subdirectory, ie make it part of openttd
18:01:25 <_johannes> Alberth: is pnglib distributed with OpenTTD?
18:03:23 <Alberth> I mentioned pnglib *before* mentioning "other option ... add source code"
18:05:20 <Samu> i can't make it work. when I add stuff to the include, it changes a file
18:05:21 <Alberth> but no pnglib is not distributed with openttd, but there is stuff in ./configure to find/attach it
18:06:34 <_johannes> Alberth: ok, I just wanted to make sure you mean that
18:06:52 <Samu> projects/openttd_vs140.vcxproj - file changes, then openttd version must be detecting the change
18:07:57 <_johannes> Alberth: so the other option, e.g. making it part of openttd would be not to use submodules, but simply copy the library "as is" to OpenTTD, and whenever the library would change, I'd copy it over to OpenTTD again?
18:09:40 <Alberth> _johannes: it becomes part of openttd in that case, you have to follow commit rules
18:09:52 <Alberth> ie provide a readable patch
18:10:27 <Alberth> but tbh I am not convinced we should have a json library of our own in openttd
18:10:46 <_johannes> Alberth: yes, I agree
18:10:56 <_johannes> which would leed to the first option
18:12:44 <Alberth> not sure, I'd like to have an established json implementation, that gets distributed as package with eg debian
18:13:16 <Alberth> and works for every platform that we have, in particular all the old stuff
18:13:50 <Alberth> if your library is the only one that works, we effectively locked openttd into your library
18:14:11 <Alberth> it could break if you decide to throw the code away, or make huge changes
18:14:34 <_johannes> actually it's just a small header of ~300 loc :D
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18:16:09 <Alberth> even if it was just 1 line, I'd say this is what you get when you depend on external source not under ones control
18:16:29 <Alberth> ie a disadvantage of the first option
18:17:39 <_johannes> ok then I'll go with option two :)
18:20:53 <_johannes> in that case, the library should use the coding conventions, correct?
18:22:55 <Alberth> that's adding the code to openttd? yep, it must, even
18:26:04 <Alberth> So glad I am not using visual studio :p
18:30:28 <Samu> copy 'project' folders into a 'project2' folder
18:30:47 <Samu> then open the solution in project2 instead
18:30:53 <Samu> let's see if it builds without M
18:32:39 <Wolf01> V453000, hype intensifies
18:33:08 <Samu> first time I build OpenTTD without M!
18:34:13 <Samu> darn, it was rather simple after all, I just didn't think of it before
18:34:54 <Samu> projects2/openttd_vs140.vcxproj is changed instead of the original projects/openttd_vs140.vcxproj
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18:35:38 <Samu> thx Alberth for the help
18:36:39 <Samu> yes, "don't modify the source", the only modification was that file
18:36:47 <Samu> now I know how to work around that
18:38:08 <Samu> there's another way but i think it's not recommended
18:39:07 <Alberth> "not recommended" is an understatement there :)
18:39:36 <Alberth> it generally causes massive confusion and problems like desyncs
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18:41:35 <Samu> i kinda wanted to try my stuff on 1.6.1-RC1 though, someone who shall not be named teached me a way to hack the version, and i tried :(
18:43:07 <Alberth> if you modify anything to 1.6.1-rc1, it's not 1.6.1-rc1 any more
18:43:47 <Alberth> ie there is no such thing as "modified 1.6.1-rc1", it doesn't exist
18:46:41 <Samu> ok i guess i was desperate for testers
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19:01:15 <Samu> 13,5 MB (14.243.840 bytes) vs 13,4 MB (14.066.176 bytes)
19:08:06 <Samu> the console stuff doesn't work
19:08:26 <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27601
19:08:42 <Samu> glx, maybe you can hhelp
19:09:51 <Samu> your convert.exe tool doesn't work when i build r27601
19:10:40 <glx> weird because it only touches a bit in the PE header
19:10:58 <glx> and PE header is in all exe
19:11:48 <Samu> it says gui detected, converting to console
19:11:57 <Samu> then console detected, converting to gui if i open it again
19:12:07 <Samu> but... it doesn't dump text into the file
19:12:14 <Samu> openttd.exe -D -c D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.cfg >> D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.log 2>&1
19:12:52 <Samu> it only dumps a single line, and the rest is displayed in the console
19:13:29 <glx> the only diff between GUI and console is that it doesn't opent a console window in console mode
19:13:40 <Samu> "dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27601" is the only thing that goes into the .log
19:14:35 <glx> maybe debug level is too low
19:15:06 <glx> but convert.exe is not responsible
19:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't microsoft want to drop PE?
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19:20:39 <Samu> gonna try without dpiawareness manifest thing
19:23:33 <Samu> with dpi awareness - 13,4 MB (14.066.176 bytes) / without dpi awareness - 13,4 MB (14.065.664 bytes)
19:23:54 <Samu> let's see if it changes anything
19:24:17 <glx> compile farm may use a different compiler than you
19:24:46 <Samu> nope, didn't change a thing, still only dumping that single line
19:24:59 <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27601
19:25:14 <glx> add "-d9" to the command line
19:25:15 <Samu> the rest of the text is being displayed in the console
19:26:00 <Samu> likethis? openttd.exe -d9
19:26:06 <glx> hmm if it's shown in the console then "2>&1" seems ignored
19:26:43 <glx> IIRC order matters for windows
19:26:45 <Samu> it opens a 2nd window and puts the text in there, so there's 2 windowses
19:27:09 <Samu> sec, let me post a screenshot
19:27:18 <glx> it should not open a window in console mode
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19:28:16 <Samu> ah right, it was in gui mode
19:28:54 <Samu> you're right, only 1 window, but the text goes to console, not to file
19:29:41 <Samu> move to where? I'm not sure what you mean
19:30:36 <Samu> ah before >>, let me see
19:31:00 <Samu> openttd.exe -D -c D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.cfg 2>&1 >> D:\OpenTTD\Core8\openttdCore8.log like this?
19:31:48 <Samu> didn't seem to work, it closed the command prompt window
19:33:12 <Samu> windows is complaining that the .log file is open by command processor, i can't delete it
19:34:58 <Samu> nope, text is put into console window, the .log file now gets nothing at all
19:35:07 <Samu> but the file is still created, it's just empty
19:37:13 <Samu> sorry about when i said it closed the command prompt window, I had the server already running in the background and didn't notice
19:37:43 <Samu> what is that -d9 switch?
19:37:46 <glx> anyway >>file.log 2>&1 should work
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19:39:27 <Samu> wow, the console is going crazy
19:39:44 <Samu> going through a lot of text dump
19:40:29 <Samu> looking for a lot of tar files, sprites and stuff
19:41:29 <Alberth> well, you asked for every little detail that openttd does :)
19:42:25 <Samu> ah, it got into the part it's generating map, and now it's telling me this non-stop: dbg: [console] Executing cmdline: ''
19:42:43 <Samu> it's doing that non-stop
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19:43:06 <glx> it outputs all commands too IIRC
19:43:44 <Samu> screenshot is maybe better
19:44:38 <Samu> i'm not typing anything in the console
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19:50:00 <Samu> now i'm getting that mixed with YAPF stuff
19:51:59 <Samu> doesn't let me type any command at all
19:52:08 <Samu> can only force close the server
19:53:12 <Samu> let me try the version from openttd.org
19:56:45 <Samu> it dumped the whole stuff into the .log
19:56:59 <Samu> but there is no executing cmdline: ''
19:57:28 <Samu> too bad, I wanted to try my stuff
19:57:34 <Alberth> nice eh? Windows thinks it's more important to dump stuff to screen than to let you enter a command to quit
19:57:41 <Samu> i got to build openttd.exe myself
19:59:26 <Samu> eh? don't get confused Alberth
19:59:52 <Samu> when i build here, it doesn't work, when i download from openttd.org, it works
20:01:34 <Samu> nevermind, it's me who's confused
20:03:14 <Samu> why is it doing the executing cmdline non-stop?
20:03:23 <Samu> and it's not even executing anything
20:05:21 <Samu> will test again, see if it writes more than just that single line
20:13:37 <Samu> it's not doing the executing cmdline this time, strange
20:23:33 <Samu> this is strange, it didn't write anything at all
20:23:45 <Samu> it's strnge, I was expecting at least a line
20:26:56 <Alberth> at unix, it sends the application connected to the command window a request to stop
20:27:49 <Samu> i closed the console window clicking the 'X' and it dumped just ^C into the .log
20:29:10 <Alberth> closing the console window may be a bad idea for a console application
20:29:44 <Alberth> it's like someone taking all windows and doors out of your house and replacing them by a wall
20:30:14 <Alberth> ie you rip out all methods to talk to the outside world, for the application
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20:47:09 <Samu> gonna try 32 bit version
20:51:52 <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27601
20:52:55 <glx> and with trunk it works ?
20:55:56 <Samu> it works, both 32-bit and 64-bit
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20:56:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27602 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2016-06-17 20:56:19 +0200 )
20:56:27 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6481]: Compilation with --disable-network. (Deranged)
20:56:33 <Samu> if I build them, from the source, also downloaded there, it won't work
21:34:02 <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27602
21:34:40 <glx> fail for me too with VS2015
21:36:05 <glx> needs to rebuild with VS2012 to test
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22:10:53 <Samu> ok let me try vs100, never actually used it
22:11:00 <glx> but I think it's because MS implemented vsnprintf
22:11:39 <glx> before VS2015 we needed our own function
22:13:08 <Samu> The build tools for Visual Studio 2010 (v100) cannot be found. To build using the Visual Studio 2015 (v140) build tools, either click the Project menu or right-click the solution, and then select "Upgrade Solution...". Install Visual Studio 2010 (v100) to build using the Visual Studio 2010 (v100) build tools.
22:16:24 <glx> hmm no, can't be because vsnprintf
22:16:48 <glx> but somehow something is done differently with VS2015
22:29:11 <frosch123> "CONOUT$" <- looks like basic :)
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22:30:12 <frosch123> it's actually interesting that basic went for a postfix syntax to differ types
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22:30:22 <frosch123> usually stuff uses prefixes
22:30:28 <glx> yeah, anyway other seems to have problems with redirections in VS2015
22:33:06 <Samu> that means if i try r27480, it may work
22:33:54 <glx> or maybe it will output correctly to the file, but not on screen
22:35:43 <Samu> will test, just updated to r27480
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22:55:51 <Samu> tried r27480, it dumps a lot of garbage to the .log file
22:55:58 <Samu> and then crashes shortly after
22:56:10 <Samu> a serious fault condition blabla
22:56:34 <Samu> dbg: [net] Starting dedicated version r27480 first line
22:56:45 <Samu> . . Y@óœÿÃÑY@óœÿÃÑ®»hÅTÂÑ»[JÊTÂÑ @Q @Q " O P E N G F ~ 1 . T A R o p e n g f x - 0 . 5 . 2 . t a r ¨FÝœÿÃѨFÝœÿÃÑ©»§RÂÑ©»§RÂÑJ n o _ s o u n d . o b s x R¨ÝœÿÃÑR¨ÝœÿÃÑÙYçRÂÑÙYçRÂÑü™
22:56:54 <Samu> and etc for the 2nd line onwards
22:57:40 <glx> yes VS2015 CRT changed things
22:58:03 <glx> and r27481 mostly fixed it
22:58:31 <glx> but the fix breaks the redirection to file
22:58:41 <glx> happens for many projects
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23:32:38 <Samu> i will try doing the average column
23:33:01 <Samu> i think some AIs were being subsidized
23:33:30 <Samu> simpleai too, but not sure if they were being subsidized at the moment
23:34:00 <Wormnest> Well that´s part of the game so that´s ok with me
23:34:43 <Wormnest> At that time it probably doesn´t matter that much
23:35:51 <Samu> i was thinking this formula: best income of last 2 years / total number of vehicles
23:36:36 <Samu> there was another formula I'd like to do, related to road piece usage, to determine efficiency, but i'm not sure how to go about that
23:36:49 <Samu> i expect nocab to be quite inneficient
23:37:02 <Wormnest> 2 years might work too
23:37:17 <Samu> and dicatorai to be very efficient, think it's dictator who removes roads
23:38:13 <Wormnest> Well NoCAB goes for profits it doesn´t care about the amount of roads it uses
23:38:46 <Wormnest> However i did make some pathfinding cost changes that should lower the amount a little in my version
23:39:49 <Samu> gelignAIte should be super efficient
23:39:57 <Samu> it has more vehicles than road pieces, :p
23:40:19 <Samu> hmm i'm having a hard time to determine a formula for efficiency
23:40:35 <Wormnest> Well it only builds a few rvs and then stops
23:41:10 <Samu> it doesn't stop, it re-locates the station to the edge of the town it's working on
23:41:33 <Samu> it does that a few times, don't know how many, but seems to reach a point where it doesn't do anymore
23:42:16 <Wormnest> Still it doesn´t build more than a few vehicles
23:43:10 <Wormnest> I think it´s wrongly listed on the wiki in the list of competetive ai´s since it´s not really
23:45:13 <Wormnest> What is efficient. Earning the highest amount of money with the least costs
23:45:30 <Wormnest> or a nice looking network
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23:54:42 <Samu> the AI that surprised me the most was Trans
23:54:53 <Samu> i really expected much more
23:55:07 <Samu> it underperformed greatly from what I used to remember from it
23:55:51 <Samu> That road accross the map... took him 90 years pathfinding
23:56:11 <Samu> I don't understand why it did that
23:58:21 <Wormnest> No idea. It sometimes doesn´t peform very well for a long time and then all at once starts rising
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