IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-06-12
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04:37:01 <Quinch> Got a quick question, are there any AIs that factor in infrastructure costs into their decisionmaking?
04:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> (but i have not followed AI development)
04:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> in general, every gameplay feature that is meant to hinder the player will be totally devastating to AIs
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09:45:48 <_johannes> do we have any experts for the OpenTTD Makefiles here?
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09:56:14 <_johannes> where can I see who usually commits Makefiles?
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10:02:17 * andythenorth debugging graphics pipelines :P
10:04:01 <Alberth> _johannes: the commit log of said make files? :)
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10:24:41 <andythenorth> ‘debugging’ = discovering the code already does what is needed
10:24:49 <andythenorth> just had to find the magic parameter
10:27:14 <Alberth> ha, code outsmarts author, that's a good sign :)
10:28:19 <Alberth> it means the code is getting mature, and handling things you didn't expect
10:32:11 <Alberth> no freight in BRtrains, it seems
10:47:45 <andythenorth> for some reason the tech ladder in my grfs is 10 years ahead of reality
10:48:04 <andythenorth> I thought it was just a few vehicles with stats dibbled up, but it’s nearly everything :)
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10:51:31 <Alberth> real tycoons want the big stuff as early as possible, money is no object :p
10:54:15 <Alkel_U3> I like it that way. It's just natural that a universe where _I_ direct all the transporting is technologicaly, socialy and economicaly advanced :P
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11:07:52 <_johannes> Alberth: I know, but IIRC git is just synced? I.e. these are the "syn authors"?
11:08:25 <_johannes> it's probably SVN that I need to check?
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11:18:10 <Rubidium> _johannes: why would you need to know the expert? And why is the person doing the most commits the expert?
11:18:32 <_johannes> Rubidium: ok, you're right :)
11:18:49 <Rubidium> and what do you actually want to know?
11:19:18 <_johannes> anyways, I have developped a new video driver for the OpenTTD code which needs to be compiled with C++11 support
11:19:38 <_johannes> now I'd like to let the Makefile compile this part exactly if the user's compiler has the -std=c++11 flag
11:20:40 <_johannes> so something like "if compiler_has_c++11_flags { compile video_driver/my_video_driver with std=c++11 } else { don't compile it }"
11:21:29 <Rubidium> can't you detect that from some compile time define?
11:21:49 <_johannes> Rubidium: good idea...
11:22:22 <Rubidium> I guess #if __cplusplus >= 201103L around the files of your driver would suffice
11:23:31 <_johannes> Rubidium: however, if the user then just runs the whole Makefile with as usual, and the compiler has std=c++03 by default, the compile will compile my driver with c++03 and print errors
11:25:10 <Rubidium> if that happens, then the standards version is not passed properly into the define and the compiler is flawed
11:28:28 <_johannes> Rubidium: ah, I see, you're right
11:28:34 <_johannes> good point, many thanks!
11:42:44 <Samu> setting gui.autosave, range goes from 0 to 4
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11:44:06 <Samu> nevermind, got it, it's 1
11:44:35 <Samu> shouldn't it be reversed?
11:44:49 <Samu> 0 = less saves, 4 = more saves
11:45:46 <Samu> 0 = no saves, 1 = monthly, 2 = every 3 months, 3 = every 6 months, 4 = every year
11:47:38 <Samu> what will it be named when u upload to banana server?
11:48:14 <Wormnest> Well actually my dev version is called WormCAB lol
11:48:57 <Wormnest> First of all I haven´t decided yet if I should put it on bananas
11:49:32 <Wormnest> If I do I lean to naming it something like ¨NoCAB Fixed¨ or something
11:49:50 <Wormnest> To make it clear that the intention is to fix bugs in the original not to enhance it
11:50:25 <Wormnest> But I´m open to other suggestions :)
11:51:19 <Samu> uhm, you can't upload on behalf of nocab author?
11:53:04 <Samu> you give him the fixed version, he updates the current banana version, to avoid a new, similar nocab, i guess
11:53:13 <Samu> but i don't know how that works
11:54:33 <Samu> there's always copyrights and licenses and stuff like that which only makes things harder to do
11:55:01 <Wormnest> Well I´ve posted in the NoCAB development version thread and he hasn´t posted a reply so I´m not sure if he´s interested
11:55:32 <Wormnest> License shouldn´t be a problem since it´s GPL2 so me posting my own version is allowed
11:57:29 <Samu> i expect today that NoCAB will be reaching 2051
11:58:15 <Samu> i couldn't save or let anyone join for the entirety of his run, but it looks like NoCAB is stable when it doesn't have to save
11:58:30 <Samu> that's the 2.1.3 version though
11:58:46 <Samu> stable for road vehicles at least
11:59:43 <Samu> I will attempt to do the final save on 1st jan 2051. I know it will crash him, but at least we can take a look at his stuff
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12:01:07 <Samu> should be really nasty, he spams roads
12:03:56 <Wormnest> I found another crash yesterday where it didn´t refit when replacing a vehicle but that´s not likely to happen for rvs
12:07:47 <Samu> cluelessplus server just reached 2051, nice :)
12:11:05 <Samu> takes 2nd place in company value
12:13:07 <Samu> dictatorai server is next
12:13:52 <Samu> dictatorai won't impress
12:14:02 <Samu> i was honestly expecting better
12:14:21 <Samu> maybe the parameters I used weren't the best
12:16:48 <Samu> i think the removal of roads might be working against him
12:17:26 <Samu> that I think it's disadvantageous
12:19:52 <Wormnest> Maybe he´s being careful in case infrastructure maintenance is turned on
12:21:06 <Samu> it's interesting to see dictatorai doing it, though
12:21:58 <Samu> it clearly shows that 5000 rvs is, from an AI + map size perspective, a very limited cap
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12:22:48 <Samu> but when i look at the map and multiply the number of roads by 5, i see that 1024x1024 is HUGE for 5000
12:23:56 <Samu> 5000 road vehicles is very limiting
12:24:03 <Samu> i wish this cap could be raised
12:27:07 <Samu> about 12,800 road pieces to accomodate 1100 vehicles
12:27:17 <Samu> that's about 60k road pieces
12:27:52 <Samu> let me look at some other AI with ~63k pieces
12:28:01 <Alberth> if you need 5K RVs, you're doing something wrong, imho
12:28:20 <Alberth> you better start using trains then
12:29:00 <Alberth> probably in some feeder system
12:30:19 <Wormnest> And letting one AI play alone isn´t your average scenario. Give it 9 competitors and you have 50000 vehicles
12:31:44 <Samu> oh, you're probably right
12:32:39 <Samu> i found mogul with 62k road pieces, there's clearly a lot of empty places in the map
12:49:34 <Samu> CPU is finally starting to kick off
12:50:13 <Samu> he either sleeps too much, or pathfinds too much, seems to be pathfinding for 4 years
12:51:15 <Samu> dbg: [script] [0] [I] Pathfinding...
12:51:28 <Samu> he pathfinds for too long
13:09:39 <Samu> next is likely to be NoCAB, but only later at night
13:09:58 <Samu> and once again, Otvi won't finish
13:11:13 <Samu> dictatorai takes last place, of those that have finished without crashing
13:14:21 <Samu> think i'm gonna evaluate road pieces
13:14:40 <Samu> considering profits of course
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13:28:10 <Wormnest> You should turn infrastructure maintenance on then
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13:32:07 <Alberth> that'd be total slaughter :p
13:32:37 <Wormnest> Yep and fun to watch
13:33:31 <Wormnest> Although that 15 WormAI savegame that Samu posted a while back when I turned maintenance on they kept making a profit
13:33:50 <Wormnest> But at that time the routes they had were already making huge profits
13:40:57 <Alberth> I doubt any of the AIs understands to stop expanding if infra structure goes up :p
13:46:39 <Wormnest> I think there may be a few that try to be a little aware of it but what´s the fun in not expanding :p
13:47:17 <Wormnest> And I know for sure that turning infra on at the start of a game is a sure way for WormAI to fail soon
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14:19:09 <Alberth> you could tune to do more blind&fast expansion first, and optimize later
14:21:29 <Alberth> but progressively improve on optimizing is very complicated
14:21:53 <Alberth> even we can't do that beyond some limit
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14:50:10 <Samu> i better start paying attention
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14:52:26 <andythenorth> the – views of trucks all have subtle length bugs
14:52:34 <andythenorth> because it makes them look better
14:52:43 <andythenorth> this makes it harder to automate cargo sprites :P
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14:59:39 <andythenorth> procedural bulk cargo pixels? o_O
15:03:22 <monsted_> andythenorth: that sounds like factorio where train cars are different lengths depending on orientation :)
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15:09:13 <Samu> oops, i didn't keep track of TeshiNet parameters that I used, @logs
15:12:20 <Samu> bah, i can't remember the parameters that I used
15:14:17 <Samu> not what i wanted to paste
15:14:33 <Samu> TeshiNet = start_date=1,use_planes=0
15:14:56 <andythenorth> frosch123 newgrf effects remain an awesome feature ;)
15:18:40 <frosch123> still no rainbow smoke though :p
15:44:52 <Samu> already on clipboard for pasting into nocab server
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15:57:59 <supermop__> Antheus: procedural everything
15:58:10 <supermop__> ooops: andythenorth
15:59:42 <Alkel_U3> dwarf fortress style
16:07:44 <frosch123> it's funny how the rocket reveals that factorio is a 2d game :p
16:10:38 <andythenorth> trucks, or not-road-types?
16:11:39 <frosch123> what capacities do you have in 1970?
16:12:22 <frosch123> hmm, somehow i was not aware that hog has trams
16:12:26 <supermop__> what about for wheelbarrows?
16:12:32 <Samu> oh wow, I thought Factorio was free to play
16:12:53 <andythenorth> nah, they actually employ people and such
16:14:25 <supermop__> put the beer on V453000 's table
16:15:38 <supermop__> not wine for Wolf01 ?
16:16:31 <Samu> i didn't get how to play it
16:17:19 <Samu> i started as a single guy
16:17:31 <supermop__> Alkel_U3: server off?
16:17:38 <Samu> and i stopped there... this is not my kind of game
16:18:20 <Wolf01> didn't you researched automation?
16:18:44 <Samu> feels like playing those stupid custom games on starcraft 2
16:19:06 <Samu> trying to maintain whatever
16:19:26 <Wolf01> pffff, don't dare to compare arcade games with Factorio
16:20:20 * andythenorth goes back to trucks
16:21:52 <Alkel_U3> supermop__: that's weird, it seems to still be running in the screen and it was online when I checked on it half an hour ago
16:21:57 <andythenorth> I don’t think not-road-types is that big, probably smaller than this newgrf :P
16:22:10 <andythenorth> in complexity + yak-shaving
16:23:00 <Alkel_U3> supermop__: also I'm compiling the jgrpp on the server now. Checked it on local pc and seems to work well with the infra sharing and other features at similar settings
16:24:56 <Alkel_U3> supermop__: it was paused somehow - prodded the console and it resumed
16:25:24 <V453000> I never had high hopes for Samu :)
16:26:19 <supermop__> Alkel_U3: patched server running now>?
16:28:31 <Samu> i also tried minecraft once, it gave me exact same feeling
16:29:08 <Alkel_U3> supermop__: only the vanilla
16:29:21 <Alkel_U3> I still have to alter the server's config
16:29:39 <Samu> uninstalled it instantly
16:33:01 <Wolf01> minecraft is only enjoyable in multiplayer, it gets really boring after the first hour of play
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16:34:09 <V453000> I don't see the point even in multiplayer, but doesn't matter
16:34:24 <V453000> what I am interested to know is why didn't Samu expect this kind of game, didn't you watch the trailer
16:34:34 <V453000> because the trailer quite clearly shows what game it is
16:35:15 <_dp_> I got bored in factorio way faster than in minecraft
16:35:20 <Wolf01> I watched the trailer, downloaded the demo, purchased the game, downloaded the full game
16:35:38 <Samu> my first impression was... this looks like simfarm
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16:52:56 <Alkel_U3> oh my god, I forgot to apply the patches before compiling -_-
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16:55:16 <Alkel_U3> 5 minutes and some trust in my ability to focus :-)
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17:02:56 <Samu> st2, do u have more ppl joining newgrf servers or the others?
17:03:33 <ST2> more people join the newgrf free servers
17:04:05 <Alkel_U3> supermop__: it is done :-)
17:04:41 <Samu> all 1.6.1 servers have newgrf stuff, ecxcept mine :(
17:05:09 <V453000> no newgrf servers always have the most people, also the most retards
17:07:41 <Samu> i'm always afraid of setting up NewGRFs
17:08:02 <Samu> afraid the already short amount of ppl who join would join even less
17:08:18 <V453000> then your server is boring
17:09:07 <Samu> for some reason, i just had 5 players on the otvi server, that server is horribly suttering...
17:09:18 <Samu> but ... meh... whatever, my fault
17:09:35 <Samu> cpu server is running smooth
17:11:06 <Samu> 2 more years and nocab server finishes :)
17:11:22 <Samu> why am i getting excited
17:12:09 <ST2> yeah, no one gets excited for bots playing - when I play, yes, I get excited xD
17:13:57 <Wolf01> it's like watching F1 these years, I don't even get excited when Ferrari wins... maybe because I cheer Hamilton
17:16:59 <Samu> i think i am excited to see what a mess of road network he created
17:18:41 <Samu> well, whatever the result
17:18:50 <Samu> he's already first place in company value
17:19:09 <Wolf01> then if you see what the original TT was able to do, what would you do?
17:19:42 <Samu> original tt was curly with roads lol,
17:20:50 <Samu> instead of doing curly routes, he does paralel roads and crazy amount of bridges/tunnels
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17:24:07 <Samu> the sheer amount is what makes it worse, i don't think i'll be seeing a spot to place an airport
17:25:01 <Wolf01> I should write an AI myself
17:26:32 <Wolf01> I would call it "GiveUpAI" because I'm not even sure to be able to finish it
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18:01:03 <Samu> autosave0.sav - yeah, i got it
18:05:38 <Samu> okay so there's space for airports after all
18:20:27 <Alberth> looks like a nice modern painting :)
18:21:19 <Wolf01> what's nice on modern paintings? ;)
18:22:08 <Alberth> to me, it looks better than a load of other paintings
18:22:19 <Alberth> so that classifies it as nice, imho
18:24:39 <Wolf01> the fact that the screenshots looks better than most paintings can be shared, but I can't find anything "nice" on a Mondrian's painting...
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18:56:08 * andythenorth refactored 100 python vehicle files
18:58:28 <Alberth> that happens with one file for one vehicle :)
18:59:24 <andythenorth> it’s slightly less silly, but slightly more odd
18:59:36 <andythenorth> historical stuff to support
19:07:30 * andythenorth is automating to save time
19:09:10 <Alberth> yep, very busy to do less :)
19:09:40 <Alberth> I think however in the end it pays off, as I have yet to see a case where the result was needed exactly one time
19:14:31 <andythenorth> if I can automate cargo sprites, it will be good
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19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27599 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/persian.txt (2016-06-12 19:45:36 +0200 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> persian: 2 changes by rkarimabadi
19:54:11 <Alkel_U3> andythenorth: I now noticed SQUID's Harbour Point Utility Vessel is advertised as 19 mph/30 kph but it actually runs at 21 mph / 35 kph. I assume that's a bug? http://i.imgur.com/5fq6LXp.png
19:55:17 <Wolf01> those are the safe operational limits, maybe there's an emergency... it always an emergency XD
19:55:52 <greeter> maybe it's a test to see how fast they can burn out the engine
19:56:34 <Alkel_U3> maybe it's the captain burning high quality rum :-)
19:56:54 <Alkel_U3> or low, can't tell what would be more efficient :-)
19:57:22 <Wolf01> does it happen only with "no orders"?
19:57:28 <greeter> generally takes moonshine for something like that, which will definitely burn out the engine fast unless it's built for ethanol based fuels
19:57:50 <Alberth> Alkel_U3: empty of full ship?
19:58:27 <Alberth> I am guessing empty :)
19:58:33 <Alkel_U3> it happens every time, the no orders is just that i wanted to be sure that there's no interference and ran a new instance of stable with no other newgrfs
19:59:17 <Alkel_U3> Alberth: oooh, that's it! But... isn't that a bad feature? :D
19:59:43 <Alberth> yep, it did since FISH 1 - something, empty ships run a bit faster :p
20:00:01 <Alberth> I requested that somewhen
20:00:35 <Wolf01> if running costs scales with speed I think it could be a good feature
20:02:12 <Alkel_U3> that reminds me of a good old ttdpatch's feature - empty wagons would run fater by 20 kph by default
20:02:58 <Alkel_U3> I think some wagons have different speed restrictions loaded and empty
20:03:02 <Alberth> run a freight train with a freight multiplier of say 4 to 5 :)
20:03:55 <Alkel_U3> I used to do that with 6% slope - now I settled for 3x and 3% :-)
20:04:50 <Alkel_U3> I think I was kinda masochist with that setting
20:05:27 <Alberth> nah, just throw enough steam engines at it :)
20:06:34 <Alberth> I once ran the default set with the very first engine and heavy oil, had 1 engine for every 2 wagons :)
20:07:04 <Alberth> 4 engines for 8 wagons :)
20:07:05 <Alkel_U3> that's a lot of engines :D
20:07:26 <Alberth> can't have too many steam engines, imho :p
20:08:00 <Alkel_U3> as long as there's room for actual wagons... :-)
20:08:19 <Alberth> is useful, I agree :)
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20:23:35 <Samu> preparing 7 more road vehicle AIs
20:23:48 <Samu> will start them soon, after CPU finishing
20:29:58 <Samu> what is the meaning of the different names for Level of easiness on MailAI?
20:31:31 <Samu> Level of easiness: Chieftain / I'm a Chew Toy / Elves Just Want To Have Fun / Smooth Sailin' / I'm Too Young To Die / Sith Apprentice
20:31:48 <Samu> which value makes him competitive?
20:37:05 <andythenorth> ships travel faster when empty
20:38:40 <Samu> from previoust testings, Perry Mail Truck is the most profitable road vehicle
20:39:07 <Samu> if MailAI can pull it off, working only with mail, he got the potential to end first
20:39:55 <Samu> what are the meaning of those settings? anyone know?
20:55:52 <greeter> hmm, wasn't expecting to see oil rigs with over 600 passengers waiting on them
20:57:01 <Alkel_U3> greeter: btw, I got another server running if you wanna look. Even more wonders there :D
20:57:33 <greeter> lol i'm testing out my own right now, just trying to get it to the reset date to see how a reset works. i'll take a search for it though at some point
20:59:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: good idea, make them travel faster when full to reward bidirectional transport and refitting
21:03:51 <ChoHag> Is there an infinite money hack?
21:04:19 <ChoHag> My daughter likes to play but she's more interested in making mountains and planting trees than in creating hyper-efficient train networks.
21:04:42 <ST2> if SP, open cheat window, CTRL+ALT+C
21:10:42 <Samu> which one is better? Chieftain or Sith Apprentice?
21:15:21 <Alberth> check out the newobject grfs, lots of eye-candy to put in the game
21:22:16 <Samu> I'm gonna try Sith Apprentice, but I don't know what to expect
22:07:28 <Samu> ChooChoo, Rondje, rocketAI, PAXLink, PathZilla, MailAI, gelignAIte
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23:14:16 <Samu> nevermind, it's not civilai, lol
23:16:49 <Samu> it crashed, then bankrupted
23:33:47 <Samu> replaced rocketai with civilai and started
23:38:59 <Samu> script took too long to save on server 6, that is...
23:39:35 <Samu> restarting without autosave
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