IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-06-05
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01:28:51 <BarbarianKabbage_> How are you doing today?
01:33:13 <supermop> late evening for planetmaker
01:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that an answer for the question?
01:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (not that the question is in a particular need for an answer, anyway)
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01:48:05 <supermop> i did not take the question as directed towards myself, so not my place to answer it, only to make observations
01:52:56 <planetmaker> jo, quite late :)
02:17:26 <planetmaker> yes. It's a bit slang / dialect
02:20:06 <supermop> again on this server, all of the other players lines are point to point, one train per track, with double 45 and 90 degree turns
02:20:29 <supermop> i feel like i only ever play against AIs?
02:21:14 <sim-al2> Some people's building styles closely resemble the old AI...
02:22:58 <supermop> train acceleration is set to original?!?
02:23:18 * sim-al2 dramatically takes off his glasses
02:23:32 <supermop> is this server for punishing people or something?
02:24:05 <supermop> first time ive ever seen pony running on a server, so i had to join
02:29:41 <supermop> its 2248 though so cities are so big hard to play anywhere, so just running hovercrafts on rivers
02:33:43 <supermop> also inflation is on?
02:35:18 <supermop> my hover craft broke down
02:36:06 <sim-al2> I don't suppose you can buy company shares too?
02:36:22 <supermop> can't afford any though
02:36:31 <sim-al2> I think you've found the anti-server
02:36:44 <supermop> no but that server sure felt like it
02:37:41 <supermop> server list would be well served with a way to discover if a server is running with such inane settings before joining
02:38:01 <sim-al2> Might be a bit unwieldy though
02:38:10 <sim-al2> And more data to send
02:38:43 <supermop> also still really hard to find anyone running firs 2 instead of 1.4
02:40:37 <sim-al2> Yeah, I see one still running FIRS 1.3
02:41:32 <Samu> i'm testing cargodist on some AIs
02:42:10 <Samu> not all of them are readily for this setting, though they can manage staying afloat
02:42:37 <Samu> doesn't look they will die, but won't progress as fast as they use to
02:43:55 <supermop> ok this server is going to melt my computer
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02:51:54 <supermop> how can anyone play on these 2048^2 maps
02:55:25 <Mazur> With a lot of time to waste?
03:02:33 <supermop> here is a 2048x64 map
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03:47:31 <Leanden> Hopefully someone can help me
03:47:40 <Leanden> Ive code plenty of trains with livery refits no problem at all
03:47:47 <Leanden> but my Eurostar is causing me grief
03:48:00 <Leanden> for whatever reason 3 out of the 20 coaches will not change livery
03:48:27 <Leanden> 2 of them are item_BR373TBK and the other is item_BR373DMb
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10:44:39 <_dp_> <sim-al2> 00:40:37> Yeah, I see one still running FIRS 1.3 <-- haha I know that server ^^
10:45:10 <_dp_> Guess nobody felt like balancing it for newer versions
10:45:33 <_dp_> And I don't know firs myself
10:46:20 <_dp_> From what I heard ports completely break gameplay
10:49:16 <andythenorth> shouldn’t be allowed
10:49:20 <andythenorth> delete it from bananas
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11:28:28 <Leanden> I coded my eurostar 373 on the BRTrains set
11:29:07 <Leanden> When i refit the livery the whole train changes as expected except for the buffet cars and the trailing motor which both stay in default livery
11:30:08 <Leanden> I am fairly sure the problem lies with the cargo_subtype switch, but i cant see any errors
11:30:44 <Leanden> Full code is on the BRTrains dev thread if anyone could take a look.
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11:44:55 <Leanden> Is there a limit to how many switches in a single pnml document or somethig like that?
11:45:15 <Leanden> Or maybe to do with the train length as its 20 cars long?
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12:21:09 <Alkel_U3> Hm, I can't find a language-compatible goal-less server with FIRS running on 1.6. Might as well start my own.
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13:46:23 <andythenorth> these trucks are all wrong
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14:19:11 <frosch123> size increasing, i hope everyone ran away when the thunder started
14:23:26 <frosch123> some are easily 2cm diameter
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14:32:44 <planetmaker> autsch. That's tough
14:33:42 <planetmaker> Is it helpful when I say that we have nicest weather here? Sunshine, few clouds? But it's just much too humid... maybe thunderstorm coming later
14:34:07 <frosch123> oh, it had 25 degree and sunshine 30 minutes ago :p
14:34:13 <frosch123> likely again in 15 minutes
14:34:21 <frosch123> though, the temperature may take some time
14:39:06 <planetmaker> :) Hm, my thermometer is in the sun. It's telling me 47°C :P
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14:47:45 <Alberth> in the sun, that sounds correct :p
14:52:35 <Alberth> hmm, DisplayOptions in openttd.h, that looks a little lost :)
14:56:56 <frosch123> rename "openttd.h" to "lostandfound.h" ?
15:01:40 <andythenorth> I’ve re-drawn the modern trucks to be quite chibi
15:01:50 <andythenorth> which leaves no room for the older, smaller trucks :P
15:02:03 <andythenorth> just not enough pixels to actually draw them :P
15:04:01 <andythenorth> solution: redraw the modern trucks :P
15:05:13 <Alberth> rename would fail, compiler isn't so smart to look in lostandfound when it looses an include file
15:08:13 <andythenorth> chibi trucks do look nicer though :P
15:08:35 <andythenorth> but they’d all have to be same size, no possibility for newer = bigger, older = smaller
15:15:07 <Alberth> smaller length-wise :p
15:15:48 <Alberth> or rather, breath-wise
15:18:24 <andythenorth> when a cab is 3px long and 4px wide, it’s hard to draw it with any shape :)
15:43:18 <Alberth> nice form of road train :p
15:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> british trains are, of course, smaller than regular trains.
15:52:19 <supermop> frosch123: summer thunderstorms are my favorite part of the season
15:52:40 <frosch123> if you are inside :)
15:52:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: file that as a bug with Iron Horse / most other train sets :D
15:54:35 <andythenorth> hmm, some tunnel glitches due to height :P
16:06:19 <sim-al2> And then there's tube trains, making regular British trains look big :p
16:06:49 <Islacrusez> tube trains? you mean glorified cans of beans?
16:07:59 <andythenorth> is there any way to stop the ottd console snaffling ctrl-b ?
16:36:34 <andythenorth> reload_newgrfs, toggle bounding box :P
16:36:41 <andythenorth> is a thing I do a lot
16:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> just close the console?
16:46:05 * andythenorth not good at doing sequences in correct order :P
16:49:56 <Alberth> some smart cookie decided to disable bounding boxes on reload, I take it?
16:53:28 <Alberth> also, why does fios seem so bloody complicated? I can't see structure with all the magic globals
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17:55:19 <andythenorth> the midsize truck is the best looking sprite, but eh, there are 3 older trucks preceding it in the roster
17:56:04 <andythenorth> so I have to use the big one here
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18:06:51 <Islacrusez> doesn't necessarily need to be larger; more capacity can come from a stronger chassis or somesuch... alternatively have you tried a longer trailer without making it taller?
18:09:53 <Alberth> the "previous" could be an earlier generation
18:10:35 <Alberth> the body looks much less strong
18:11:10 <Alberth> maybe even remove a pixel to reduce height
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18:17:45 <Islacrusez> no humenz here, only zuul
18:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause> all sorts of terrible thoughts popped in my head just there
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18:54:16 <Islacrusez> Mazur, I feel violated. Thanks.
19:01:40 <BarbarianKabbage_> Wow... I haven't been here since last night XD. We went to a parade and it went on until 11:00 so the minute I got home, I fell asleep.
19:02:29 <BarbarianKabbage_> lol GoatBusters
19:02:45 <BarbarianKabbage_> If you've played the NES game it's more like GERSTBUSTERS
19:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i never played NES games
19:04:43 <BarbarianKabbage_> And of course the end being CONGLATURATION !!! YOU HAVE COMPLETED A GRATE GAME. AND PROOVED THE JUSTICE OF OUR CULTURE. NOW GO AND REST OUR HEROES !
19:05:20 <BarbarianKabbage_> Well, the opening of the game is a bad soundbyte
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19:07:15 <Mazur> I've got millions more like it.
19:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> never quite got the point of "x hours of <blah>" videos
19:07:24 <Mazur> Thank you, folks, i'll be here all year!
19:08:55 <Islacrusez> Eddi|zuHause, in most cases it's some sort of endurance challenge
19:09:28 <Islacrusez> because people have something to prove to the internetz or something
19:11:51 <BarbarianKabbage_> I don't understand some of them either
19:12:02 <BarbarianKabbage_> the music ones I can kind of understand
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19:52:26 <_dp_> is there any way to allow oil refineries to be built everywhere?
19:53:16 <_dp_> there is setting but it seems to change nothing rly (12-48 tiles from border, as if it matters)
19:56:14 <Alberth> newgrf can fix it, afaik
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19:59:12 <_dp_> Alberth, except that newgrf can't change default industries afaik
20:01:28 <Alberth> indeed, but you asked for "any way"
20:02:39 <Alberth> play at 64x64 would also work :p
20:03:01 <Alberth> you only need 32 tiles from the edge then :)
20:03:17 <Alberth> oh, 2048x64, anyone? :)
20:12:46 <_dp_> mb I'll just remove all oil
20:12:56 <_dp_> not gonna work in temperate anyway :p
20:16:43 <BarbarianKabbage_> It's Rock and Roll, and I think I'll make some more music and put it into a pack.
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20:41:00 <Samu> I'm trying to play openttd on a very old system and I just remembered that I need version 1.5.2
20:41:16 <Samu> newer versions past that are extremely slow
20:43:24 <Samu> where can i dl 1.5.2 or what can i do to improve openttd performance?
20:51:51 <Alberth> get the url of a stable version, and modify it to point to the version you want
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20:52:42 <Alberth> unfortunately, there are too many robot spiders continuously downloading all old versions
20:52:50 <Alberth> and eating our bandwidth :(
20:53:14 <Alberth> so the links to the older versions were removed
20:55:41 <Samu> by chance, do you know what was changed from 1.5.2 to make it so slow?
20:58:58 <Alberth> 1.6 changelog is pretty small
21:00:07 <Alberth> I wouldn't know what can cause that
21:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: small suggestion: if you want someone to put your music into a pack, you should include a clear and concise license (e.g. one of the CC licenses) so people in 5 years stumbling over the topic don't have to hunt you down for permission, when you've long since moved on to other projects
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21:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: the forum is full of art where people ignored this license thing, and nobody dares to touch it
21:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> huge parts of the 32bpp images, for example
21:06:14 <BarbarianKabbage_> I've never applied a license to something before.
21:06:37 <Islacrusez> just because people do it doesn't mean it's nice, good practice, or legal
21:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause> for the CC licenses it's fairly easy, you decide what people should or shouldn't be allowed to do (like make verbatim copies, modify it, make money off it), and it comes with a short abbreviation like "CC-BY-ND" which you stick in the description of your title
21:08:41 <BarbarianKabbage_> Is OpenTTD Technically COmmercial?
21:09:06 <BarbarianKabbage_> I don't believe so because you can get it for free.
21:09:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not forbidden to distribute OpenTTD commecrially. some linux distributions might exclude software which forbids it
21:09:20 <BarbarianKabbage_> It's open-source
21:09:25 <Alberth> the whole point is that if you don't say what is allowed, nothing is allowed
21:09:59 <Alberth> so the only thing that can be done is to leave it alone
21:10:45 <Alberth> ie if you publish something at the forum, it does not mean anybody can use it
21:10:59 <Alberth> you have to explicitly say so
21:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: the license of OpenTTD has almost nothing to do with the license for your music, anyway. it's almost certainly two distinct projects which can have different licenses
21:13:16 <Samu> I dont understand the point of licenses
21:13:34 <BarbarianKabbage_> Would BY-SA be a good option?
21:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, that's fine
21:14:08 <Alberth> Samu: It protects your work
21:15:09 <Islacrusez> it also tells people whether or not they can legally use your work; otherwise the more principled people might just ignore it and use something else
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21:15:39 <BarbarianKabbage_> It's gonna be BY-NC-SA
21:16:00 <Samu> if I put something online, it's already there, I can't claim anything anymore.
21:16:07 <Alberth> Islacrusez: using it not a problem as nobody knows what I use at my system, publishing is the problem, and extending it after the original author left
21:16:30 <Samu> If I really cared to restrict it, I wouldn't even post.
21:16:33 <Alberth> Samu: false, it's still your work
21:17:03 <Islacrusez> Samu, oh boy I hope you never run in with RIAA and co
21:17:11 <BarbarianKabbage_> I just don't wnt people making money off of it.
21:17:15 <Islacrusez> "It's online, you can't claim it anymore" would be a great legal defense
21:17:48 <Alberth> if it's online, the only thing you can't do is make it go away :)
21:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: that's fine, from now on put this "CC-BY-NC-SA" into the description of all titles you post
21:17:58 <Alberth> Sylf: He picked BY-SA
21:18:20 <Sylf> oh. I only read the BY-NC-SA part above
21:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> NC is considered fairly restrictive
21:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> some more openness-oriented communities really dislike it. but i don't really see the problem
21:19:38 <Islacrusez> really, being able to sell someone else's work is a dealbreaker for people?
21:19:39 <Sylf> it's just a restriction that's not needed imo
21:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but imagine this: someone makes a let's play on youtube, which includes your music running in the background. can he tick the "monetize this video" box?
21:19:48 <Sylf> unless you're really against someone making money off of your product
21:20:12 <BarbarianKabbage_> Basically all I want is my name somewhere for the music
21:20:13 <Alberth> Islacrusez: getting BSD into an Apple machine would be
21:21:15 <Alberth> if you would have NC as license, you couldn't put BSD into a commercial product
21:21:35 <BarbarianKabbage_> What is a BSD
21:21:37 <Alberth> that's the dealbreaker for people
21:21:48 <BarbarianKabbage_> What's it stand for?
21:21:53 <Alberth> BarbarianKabbage_: alternative for Linux
21:22:19 <BarbarianKabbage_> I thought you were talking about CC codes
21:22:22 <Alberth> it has a more free license than Linux
21:22:43 <andythenorth> NC is a dumb move for most work created as a hobby
21:22:44 <Alberth> you can just take it and use it for any purpose
21:24:28 <BarbarianKabbage_> I guess BY-SA would be the easiest for me?
21:24:28 <Islacrusez> surely if you're giving away something for free, it's within the bounds of NC?
21:25:08 <BarbarianKabbage_> I'm gonna do BY-NC I think
21:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: CC-BY-SA will give you the least troubles in the long run
21:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but in the end it's your decision
21:25:42 <BarbarianKabbage_> So CC-BY-SA Is what I'm gonna go for until I can like, sell music.
21:26:04 <BarbarianKabbage_> I'm only 13. I don't think I'm gonna get a record deal anytime soon XD
21:26:13 <BarbarianKabbage_> Especially with MIDI Music LOL
21:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also put CC-BY-NC-SA, and change your mind later and drop the NC
21:26:28 <BarbarianKabbage_> Well, It's MIDI Music
21:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> ultimately, it's your choice, though
21:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> music is music...
21:27:03 <BarbarianKabbage_> I think I'm gonna go with CC-BY-SA is gonna be my best bet
21:27:22 <BarbarianKabbage_> RIP English ^
21:27:41 <BarbarianKabbage_> Where should I post my Music?
21:27:50 <Eddi|zuHause> forum is fine for now
21:27:58 <BarbarianKabbage_> Like what directory of this forum?
21:28:14 <Sylf> request a project on dev.openttdcoop.org :)
21:28:36 <Sylf> I might drop a midi or two too
21:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not going to be much demand for a music subforum, so general is fine :)
21:30:03 <BarbarianKabbage_> I'm gonna pobably sound like an idiot but... what is an OpenID
21:30:27 <Sylf> it's a single-sign-on system
21:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> like a wallet, where you collect logins to sizes
21:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't have to remember hundreds of passwords
21:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> or worse, use the same password everywhere
21:32:06 <andythenorth> and their silly number of wheels
21:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> usually an even number.
21:33:02 <Alberth> you don't have to do the spare tire
21:33:19 <andythenorth> IRL is just not compatible with the game :P
21:33:31 <andythenorth> the game wants a logical progression from fewer wheels -> more wheels over time
21:33:43 <andythenorth> and for each generation, same number of total wheels on different truck models
21:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sounds like a very arbitrary basis for a set...
21:35:05 <andythenorth> it’s only a detail of sprites
21:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm questioning the "the game wants" part of your premise
21:35:44 <andythenorth> means I have to draw the trucks that the rules need, rather than the ones I find interesting
21:36:00 <Alberth> nah, change the rules
21:36:04 <supermop> andythenorth: trucks get worse every 10 years
21:36:26 <andythenorth> I didn’t make the rules
21:36:29 <supermop> best truck comes out in 1900, a wheelbarrow comes out in 2050
21:36:45 <Samu> trucks get scars? pain falls apart?
21:36:45 <andythenorth> ‘your’ brain knows that you can’t have 30t / 7 axles -> 40t / 6 axles
21:36:51 <andythenorth> your brain knows that more = bigger
21:36:54 <Alberth> hmm, as a sort of counter transport wrt trains?
21:36:55 <andythenorth> never more = smaller
21:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but your current computer is almost certainly smaller than your last one
21:37:40 <Alberth> horse carts on steroids
21:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 years ago i'd have said the same about phones, but they went a different direction...
21:38:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: oddly enough, it’s been same size for about 10 years :P
21:38:10 <andythenorth> and yes, phones prove the point currently :(
21:38:13 <andythenorth> silly big phones
21:38:39 <BarbarianKabbage_> That's my topic
21:38:51 <Alberth> it happens when you want to read the newspaper at your phone :)
21:40:01 <BarbarianKabbage_> I want to thank you guys for helping me :)
21:41:44 <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: fine. just to emphasise: you should put the "CC-BY-SA" bit also in each file you post, not just in the topic
21:42:06 <BarbarianKabbage_> That's what I'm gonna do
21:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (assuming every file has a title and a description, put it into the description)
21:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also where you put your name.
21:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> (and when i say "name" it doesn't have to be your real name, can also be an alias (artist name)
22:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there should only be one axle at the front
22:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> one to support the weight of the cab, two to support the weight of the cargo
22:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the cargo is mostly in the back
22:02:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so the back should have more axles than the front
22:02:38 <andythenorth> so the problem is realism?
22:03:08 <sim-al2> There seems to be a lot of trucks with axles like that, although a bit more spread out
22:03:43 <andythenorth> UK truck configurations tend to be driven by legal regime
22:03:58 <andythenorth> for 1940s-1950s trucks
22:04:44 <andythenorth> only legal high configuration for high payload at that time
22:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say that truck is much bigger than the one in your picture
22:05:08 <andythenorth> I made the game ones a bit chibi
22:05:14 <andythenorth> I’m making them longer again
22:05:31 * Islacrusez is very confused at all this arbitrary stressing about axles
22:05:41 <andythenorth> buy menu has to look good
22:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's fine, but the "chibi" thing emphasises the "too many axles" problem
22:05:54 <andythenorth> problem is realism
22:06:01 <andythenorth> needs to be abandoned
22:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make it "chibi", remove some axles
22:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the "problem" is that you can't decide whether to make it "realistic" or not, so your thoughts go back and forth too much
22:07:08 <Islacrusez> so the logical conclusion is that the first available vehicle should be a wheelbarrow and the last available vehicle should be rocket transporter?
22:07:39 <Islacrusez> quit stressing about how the buy menu looks, nobody's gonna look at the pictures anyway
22:08:04 <andythenorth> Islacrusez: wheelbarrow -> rocket transporter sounds like a strong progression ;)
22:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> if your goal is to make a logical wheel progression, then list all the wheel arrangements before making any pixel
22:08:47 <andythenorth> oh I did that in BANDIT
22:08:53 <Islacrusez> decision process for upgrading to a new vehicle: does this new vehicle have better stats than my existing vehicle y/n; y-> upgrade
22:08:59 <andythenorth> I have a page of a notebook listing all the logical progression
22:09:12 <andythenorth> and BANDIT was really boring, no soul
22:09:58 <andythenorth> also procedural graphics generation :P
22:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> well, then define wheel progression as a non-goal.
22:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> then you have two approaches left: make the pixels first, then give them stats, or make the stats first, then give them pixels
22:11:27 <andythenorth> stats first, then pixels
22:11:38 <Islacrusez> also if your vehicle progression has no depth you end up in the completely soul-crushing situation where there is only one correct vehicle at any given time; you should have alternatives that fill different needs
22:11:52 <andythenorth> Islacrusez I think the opposite
22:12:00 <andythenorth> there should always be one correct vehicle
22:12:09 <Islacrusez> then why play? the designer has already made the decisions for you?
22:12:26 <Islacrusez> there should be a correct vehicle for the job, not for the time period
22:12:37 <andythenorth> ok, that’s a better description yes
22:12:53 <andythenorth> these sets are designed on ‘one obvious choice’, not ‘only one choice'
22:13:22 <Islacrusez> but surely if you're focusing on how the buy list looks, you're losing track of that goal
22:13:56 <andythenorth> vehicle appearance should give player a clue to stats
22:14:56 <Islacrusez> vehicle x fits condition x1, vehicle y fits condition y1; list goes x, y; if you're focusing on the buy list having a progression, you force yourself to give the visual appearance of y > x, despite the opposite being true under x1
22:15:31 <andythenorth> nah, I don’t get that, sorry :)
22:16:00 <andythenorth> if there’s no progression between vehicle generations, why have them?
22:16:18 <andythenorth> if gen 2 is not better than gen 1, why have it?
22:17:09 <Islacrusez> better != bigger != more axles != prettier
22:17:46 <Islacrusez> better yes, but you're using very arbitrary appearance parameters as your definition for better
22:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> better could mean more speed, more capacity, less running costs, other...
22:19:27 <Islacrusez> better performance; which should be a distinct a distinct metric for all the different vehicles types and the progression of each vehicle type should be an improvement in that specific metric for every generation
22:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd approach it differntly: two vehicles for the same general purpose should have the same basic look, only the style changes with the times
22:20:48 * andythenorth is still convinced that “better = bigger"
22:21:05 <andythenorth> I don’t think anything else makes sense to players
22:21:26 <Islacrusez> if that's your view of players I wonder why you bother =/
22:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the "better" comes from the stats, not from the looks
22:21:55 <Islacrusez> I look at the stats, as apparently does Eddi, and I'd wager that anyone playing to do well
22:22:29 <andythenorth> I don’t think it makes sense to ‘upgrade’ from vehicle A to vehicle B, where vehicle B is smaller
22:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i said make them the same
22:23:39 <andythenorth> same physical dimensions?
22:23:40 <Islacrusez> but you would trade a cargo ship for a truck on a 10-tile route only producing 30units/month?
22:23:49 <Eddi|zuHause> make them rounder, edgier, flashier, sparkling
22:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, same physical dimension
22:24:44 <Islacrusez> if bigger is better, the cargo ship should always be the thing you use
22:24:49 <Islacrusez> and we all know this isn't true
22:24:58 <andythenorth> they don’t appear in same buy menu
22:25:10 <Islacrusez> everyone can see that!
22:25:14 <andythenorth> and ships logically are the best transport type, they’re just boring
22:25:18 <andythenorth> they have infinite capacity
22:25:49 <Islacrusez> has OTTD changed drastically since I last played or something?
22:26:13 <andythenorth> when did you last play? o_O
22:26:33 <Islacrusez> last I checked it was near impossible to make money on a ship if you couldn't fill it in the minimum loading time
22:26:40 <andythenorth> ships print money
22:26:47 <andythenorth> and there are no infrastructure restrictions
22:27:03 <Islacrusez> they used to have a running cost though, don't they have that anymore?
22:27:33 * andythenorth posts a counter argument
22:27:39 <Islacrusez> don't know, give me stats
22:27:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: electric is better.
22:27:55 <andythenorth> looks faster, stronger?
22:28:03 <andythenorth> train 3 is 100mph, 1750hp
22:28:15 <andythenorth> train 5 is 155mph, 6400hp
22:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: add racing stripes to make the trucks faster.
22:28:55 <andythenorth> more exhaust pipes
22:29:21 <Islacrusez> well train 5 is your choice if speed is your primary concern; but if it costs 1,000,000 $/hr then it might not be the best solution
22:29:33 <andythenorth> running cost is irrelevant
22:29:37 <andythenorth> money is not a factor in openttd
22:29:55 <Islacrusez> I give up, we're not playing the same game
22:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it's really unlikely that two people plaing openttd play the same game :p
22:30:15 <andythenorth> no don’t give up, the argument helps the design
22:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there's just too much of a variation in gameplay
22:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the one with the most axles and strongest walls.
22:31:17 <Islacrusez> surely one should also remove: all money, loans, costs, and may as well remove the cargo too since the only purpose of moving cargo is to earn money
22:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> volume is hardly a concern for coal, and even less so for iron ore
22:31:48 <Islacrusez> andythenorth, assuming the last one doesn't weigh 1,000,000t, probably the last one
22:32:12 <Islacrusez> ultimately it's going to be about the stats
22:32:27 <Islacrusez> what use is a wagon with infinite capacity if my trains can't move it?
22:32:36 <Islacrusez> what use is a train with infinite power if I can't afford it?
22:33:01 <Islacrusez> what use is a big vehicle if I can't load it? what use is it if it carries no cargo?
22:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Islacrusez: what use is worrying about infinity if you can never reach it?
22:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Islacrusez: what use is thinking about god if you can never meet him?
22:33:38 <Islacrusez> Eddi|zuHause, functionally infinite
22:33:51 <andythenorth> but the stats are all level for each vehicle generation
22:33:58 <Islacrusez> you can say there's no limit to how much cargo it can load, but you'll crash the game eventually
22:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the stats in the same generation should be uncomparables
22:34:41 <andythenorth> gen 1 trucks are all 25t, gen 2 30t, gen 3 40t
22:34:47 <andythenorth> and they all have similar speeds and HP
22:34:56 <Islacrusez> then you're probably doing it wrong
22:35:18 <andythenorth> how many sets have you made? :)
22:35:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each vehicle in a generation should have a stat where it's better than all the others, and one where it's worse.
22:35:47 <andythenorth> why bother with that?
22:35:56 <andythenorth> making rational economic choices is boring
22:36:09 <andythenorth> the game is about building routes and stopping traffic jams
22:36:23 <andythenorth> you pick the vehicle that matches the cargo
22:36:45 <andythenorth> why make the tanker truck arbitrarily better or worse than the open cargo truck?
22:36:50 <Islacrusez> then you're violating your own design requirement <andythenorth> these sets are designed on ‘one obvious choice’, not ‘only one choice'
22:37:04 <andythenorth> how does that violate it?
22:37:10 <Islacrusez> if one vehicle is better at everything, there's only one choice
22:37:10 <andythenorth> you pick the one that matches the cargo
22:37:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then you should have only one vehicle per generation.
22:37:19 <andythenorth> no we tried that :)
22:37:24 <Islacrusez> in fact you should only have one vehicle
22:37:31 <andythenorth> refittable truck
22:37:34 <Islacrusez> get rid of the player too, there's no choices to make
22:37:56 <andythenorth> you’re confusing ‘choice’ with ‘economic analysis'
22:38:08 <Islacrusez> fine, there's no decisions to make
22:38:22 <andythenorth> most of the big newgrfs start out with realism, then load on stats tweaks as a form of gameplay ‘balance'
22:38:46 <andythenorth> with dubious results, and tedious economic analysis to justify which vehicle is the right choice
22:39:01 <Islacrusez> so the solution is to throw out both realism and balance? ingenious
22:39:14 <andythenorth> the balance is between different transport types
22:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if the 3 stats you're balancing are speed, capacity and price, you should have (about) 3 different choices for each cargo: 1 which is cheaper but has shit speed and shit capacity, 1 which is fast but is expensive and has shit capacity, and 1 which is huge but is expensive and has shit speed
22:39:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: actually I agree almost completely with that
22:40:02 <andythenorth> trams / highway trucks / off-highway trucks
22:40:09 <Islacrusez> and yet you refuse to implement it
22:40:20 <andythenorth> I *have* implemented it :P
22:40:31 <Islacrusez> but bigger is better!
22:40:38 <Islacrusez> and also money no object
22:41:16 <Islacrusez> <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each vehicle in a generation should have a stat where it's better than all the others, and one where it's worse.
22:41:16 <andythenorth> we’re confused here about differences between vehicle types, and progression for vehicles generations
22:41:19 <Islacrusez> <andythenorth> why bother with that?
22:41:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, since we established that, from now on, consider each of these 3 categories separaately. each of these needs a logical progression over generations
22:41:40 <andythenorth> that’s all sorted
22:41:44 <andythenorth> the sprites just don’t make sense
22:41:58 <andythenorth> sprites go small -> big -> small -> small
22:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i said, the generations should all be roughly the same size
22:42:56 <andythenorth> I will interpret ’roughly’’ quite liberally though
22:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there's only so many pixels you can add to make them "bigger" before it gets unwieldy
22:44:11 <andythenorth> even 8/8 trailers look stupid
22:44:35 <andythenorth> I looked at the original base set trucks earlier, they’re not one of the finest parts of the original sprites :P
22:45:42 <andythenorth> so all I need to do is ignore history of UK trucks, make all 1940s trucks 4 or 5 axles, problem solved
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23:15:04 <_dp_> I'd really like to have more flexibility with town growth speed
23:15:23 <BarbarianKabbage_> What do you mean
23:15:43 <BarbarianKabbage_> For modding?
23:15:50 <_dp_> small towns are not fun, and once they get to like growth_rate < 3 it's too little options
23:16:19 <_dp_> and so much difference, rate 0 is twice faster than rate 1
23:16:29 <BarbarianKabbage_> Sometimes I like to play by starting in the smallest town and getting it really big. Haven't made it that far
23:16:54 <BarbarianKabbage_> I haven't played CityBuilder
23:17:52 <BarbarianKabbage_> When I first heard about it, I thought that the roles were reversed; you were having bots get resources and YOU built the city
23:18:05 <BarbarianKabbage_> ai not bots
23:18:39 <_dp_> and it's very easy to grow town of any size in regular openttd, just build roads, do 5 stations and leave on fast-forward)
23:19:24 <_dp_> nooo, ofc not, cb is all about resources, growing town itself isn't that much of a problem
23:20:34 <BarbarianKabbage_> People play on big servers for CityBuilder, right?
23:20:51 <BarbarianKabbage_> I don't think I could ever go on a server
23:21:06 <BarbarianKabbage_> I've been playing OpenTTD for a while and still kind of suck at it
23:21:29 <_dp_> then go on good server and learn :p
23:21:46 <_dp_> it's much better than learning from bots xD
23:21:46 <BarbarianKabbage_> what servers are good
23:22:43 <_dp_> citymania, btpro, n-ice as goal servers, openttdcoop for networking, reddit for just chilling)
23:23:05 <BarbarianKabbage_> I'm gonna try the Reddit one
23:23:20 <BarbarianKabbage_> I like how this game doesn't have a bad community :)
23:23:52 <BarbarianKabbage_> I mean, there will always be a grumpy guy, but most other games everybody calls you a noob and be mean.
23:25:44 <_dp_> yeah, most of good players are very nice and helpful here
23:26:15 <BarbarianKabbage_> What is a 'goal server'
23:26:40 <BarbarianKabbage_> like you have a goal like RollerCoaster Tycoon?
23:27:26 <_dp_> one that has some goal like "reach 1mil company value" and you compete with other players on who's first to reach it
23:27:42 <_dp_> all citybuider servers are goal ones
23:28:28 <_dp_> didn't play rct so no idea what kind of goals are there)
23:29:24 <_dp_> basically, on goal servers you can compete with other players
23:30:48 <BarbarianKabbage_> are you on a server currently?
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23:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <BarbarianKabbage_> I've been playing OpenTTD for a while and still kind of suck at it <-- you find loads of people who have been playing for 20 years and still suck :p
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23:58:34 <ST2> and BarbarianKabbage_ chose a ULTRA HARD GOAL server to test - not the best to start but since you manage there, all others look like take candies to babies xD
23:59:16 <_dp_> ST2, not so sure about that ;)
23:59:47 <ST2> yeah, I know that - but for CV's?!
continue to next day ⏵
