IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2016-06-06
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00:00:25 <_dp_> for cv dunno, cv is stupid :p
00:00:50 <ST2> well, same as CB... BB is the way to go :P
00:01:48 <_dp_> ST2, nah, cv is same as balance but with 1.5x for new vehicles
00:02:03 <_dp_> ST2, which makes no sense whatsoever
00:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i honestly have no clue what game you are playing there...
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00:04:03 <ST2> vanilla OpenTTD gives 1,5x CV value to who spams on buying trains
00:04:41 <ST2> _dp_ knows more on there, but it's a very old and known CV cheat
00:05:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never even put the remotest thought into company value.
00:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> except for "it's stupid that it stays on 2€"
00:05:25 <ST2> it's shown on Company window ^^
00:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. but who ever looks at that window?
00:05:42 <ST2> and always been there, not new ^^
00:05:45 <_dp_> ST2, there is nothing more to know here)
00:06:15 <_dp_> Eddi doesn't play goal servers)
00:06:36 <ST2> CV is shown even on SP games ^^
00:06:42 <_dp_> for some reason CV is just often used for a goal
00:07:15 <_dp_> ST2, yeah, but nobody cares in sp
00:08:01 <ST2> nothing against hoe ppl play the game
00:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: you're talking like i have never seen the value before...
00:10:27 <ST2> not interest in continue discussion, but yes, kinda :P
00:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i have seen it before.
00:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it just never was interesting
00:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it also showed no correlation to what i was doing in the game
00:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> might have as well be a random value
00:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not stating to put effort in it now :p
00:12:27 <ST2> it's common communities use it as base
00:13:00 <_dp_> ST2, so tell me, why are you still using it? ;)
00:13:29 <ST2> [23:12:21] <ST2> it's common communities use it as base <<-- self explainatory words ^^
00:13:32 <_dp_> the second I knew it does 1.5x I was like nope, we're not running cv anymore xD
00:14:05 <_dp_> even though nova did it's own calculation without 1.5
00:14:26 <ST2> we dnt have an automatic way to do it, but vehicle number are stored in DB too
00:14:43 <ST2> so, we clean the ones that abused... when not spotted by an admin
00:15:38 <_dp_> ST2, yeah, but why bother when you can just set balance goal?
00:15:57 <ST2> bank account balance, you mean?
00:16:23 <ST2> we have a script for it too, but uses admin port
00:16:33 <ST2> means, only gets info each 3 month
00:16:53 <ST2> but you got a point there :)
00:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> how is bank balance a useful goal?
00:17:42 <Eddi|zuHause> just means the optimal play is to stop playing some time before the end, and just let money accumulate
00:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> any money you spend beyond that point is wasted
00:18:28 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, right, but that's not that much time to wait
00:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> bank balance is also a terrible goal, because a good company invests all its money to improve service. the game has a breaking point where it gets so complex you can't spend the money fast enough, which is where you start piling up cash
00:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> beyond that point, money is meaningless in the game
00:22:04 <ST2> as the word "goal" states... on competitive games, means that win who gets there first
00:22:06 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, don't see any problem with that
00:22:38 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, also I'm not saying balance is a very interesting goal to play, it's pretty plaing, but still ok
00:22:51 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, simple yet competitive
00:23:14 <ST2> a tricky goal, is the yearly income
00:23:52 <_dp_> yearly stuff can be abused with storing cargo
00:24:55 <ST2> not many players think about that option ^^
00:25:04 <_dp_> ST2, I'd call it tricky if it make a good gameplay
00:25:22 <_dp_> ST2, which I seriously doubt because of how station storage works
00:26:59 <ST2> gameplay is too a relative word, since OpenTTD allows several setting combinations that can create different tactics to reach any goal (if exists)
00:28:39 <_dp_> ST2, well, what's the best tactics here, spreding cargo across numerous storage stations with regular adv. then flooding it asap?
00:28:58 <_dp_> ST2, doesn't sound very appealing to me, and I don't see how any settings can influence it
00:29:25 <_dp_> ST2, there are no settings that change station storage afaik
00:29:35 <ST2> _dp_: not saying that was a good goal type, only that's a possibility
00:30:42 <_dp_> ST2, honestly I don't even know any good goal type besides CB, and even that one is hard to do right
00:31:40 <_dp_> BB is close except that it needs some tweaking for competitive servers
00:32:15 <ST2> true, but the most honest goals you can have
00:32:29 <ST2> and no, I'm not a politician xD
00:34:57 <ST2> and it can all be done with server code changes - but we use the gamescript, and for making a public server with it, we believe has legs to walk and grow
00:35:54 <ST2> despite the fact that I don't see any other online servers using BB GS
00:37:27 <ST2> which leads to the fact that OpenTTD online servers is not about what's more "balanced" but it's about what players like to play
00:38:14 <_dp_> now that I think of it, I'm not even sure what needs to be done to BB to make it more fair
00:38:51 <_dp_> its whole point is to give random goals, and random generally doesn't make a fair setting
00:38:59 <ST2> we use the released version, not trunk one - but needs to BB goals dnt repeat
00:39:42 <ST2> I guess some work already done, since I look at BB trunk code (yes, I can read code too :P)
00:40:00 <_dp_> givin same industry for everyone is the most obvious but not the only problem of bb
00:40:30 <ST2> not same industry - repeating similar goals
00:40:45 <ST2> that's (or was) the issue
00:41:24 <ST2> because BB is about deliveries... dnt care from where is taken xD
00:42:01 <_dp_> competition is different
00:42:13 <_dp_> does'n go well with secondary/ternary industries
00:42:58 <ST2> yeah, and that forced us to adjust the rules on the server BB is running (can be chacked ingame)
00:44:27 <_dp_> whatever, my main issue with bb is that I don't know how to limit its randomness
00:44:49 <ST2> exactly - and that's the good on it
00:45:21 <ST2> but it's not that random - with time you'll notice that has favourite towns and industries
00:46:08 <_dp_> how's it good? you have to give more or less similar goals to everyone if you want it to be fair
00:46:29 <ST2> I'm not saying that's good ^^
00:47:27 <ST2> [23:44:22] <_dp_> whatever, my main issue with bb is that I don't know how to limit its randomness <<-- maybe on "to limit its randomness" you wanted to say "to control its randomness"
00:48:17 <_dp_> ST2, mb, coz I don't see much difference xD
00:49:27 <ST2> it's like the rand function in ttd, try that on climate choice and you'll get 70% climate "1"
00:50:17 <_dp_> whatever, I want any set of it's goals to take nearly the same amount of time with same level of player skill))
00:51:01 <_dp_> ST2, bad rand distrubution is a different story, I know how to make good rand so don't care :p
00:51:56 <_dp_> btw, we don't use random climates, we use random configs ;)
00:52:19 <ST2> from what I know (code side) from BB, the goals are randommly set, but within the start goals (example 10), 5 easy, 5 long
00:52:57 <ST2> if you get 8 easy and 2 long, means that next set of woals will be 8 long and 2 easy
00:54:45 <_dp_> there definitely need to be more constraints
00:55:16 <ST2> other ways to control it, yes, I agree
00:55:30 <_dp_> mb some measure like (goal - cargo in prev goals) * distance / wagon capacity will work
00:55:59 <ST2> there's already a table created for completed goals
00:56:02 <_dp_> probably need to add some factor for how fast that cargo can be acquired
00:56:35 <_dp_> it's just not about simple repeating
00:56:52 <_dp_> goods goal is much easier after livestock/grain for example
00:58:57 <ST2> imagine a player that gets a livestock/grain goal to a factory
00:59:17 <ST2> since factory produces... a Goods goal can appear
00:59:26 <ST2> but he pulls off his tracks
00:59:53 <ST2> ah, works too on Toyland xD
01:00:20 <_dp_> because it's a work for no reason?
01:00:51 <_dp_> if he has another liv/grain goal he can take goods on that factory
01:01:17 <ST2> it's a work to complete a goal - and if the map is HARD... you'll need the cash of train tracks to make the missing 3 tiles for next goal
01:01:34 <_dp_> also when I played I always stored produced goods even if no goal required them xD
01:02:09 <ST2> <ttd-srv33> Rule #3: Do not steal other players secondary or tertiary cargos. These include GOODS, FOOD, STEEL, PAPER or FIRS related cargos only. (EXCEPTION: BusyBee server, to complete goals)
01:02:43 <_dp_> how's this rule relevant (especially with exception :p)
01:02:45 <ST2> if you take goods and not for completing a Goal of your company, you're breaking that rule
01:03:13 <ST2> so, yes, it's relevant to us
01:03:16 <_dp_> I take my goods and it is for completion (well, if I get goal for it that is xD)
01:04:55 <_dp_> as for missing tiles you're sure doing something wrong if you need that pity money from removing tracks for it xD
01:04:56 <ST2> I guess you haven't played on server
01:06:07 <_dp_> I played but that was some time ago
01:08:29 <_dp_> hm, I start to think of some kind of min cost max flow to generate goals xD
01:09:15 <ST2> with multiplier at 100%, min is 75, max is 3500
01:10:30 <ST2> if you mess with the cargo type, try to keep it compatible with any newgrf that can be used
01:11:25 <ST2> or even among climates ^^
01:12:31 <ST2> maybe gets easier if listed on TE_**
01:12:46 <_dp_> if I ever mess with BB I'll probably just write it from scratch
01:12:58 <_dp_> without gs coz it sucks :p
01:13:23 <ST2> has it's limitations... we know :)
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01:18:01 <ST2> well, actually, and since I had merged BB with functions needed for server controller, I added the BeeReward too, and make it depending on a setting
01:18:31 <ST2> oh well, we never know when we need to change the server xD
01:19:56 <ST2> but I guess you already know that, since, as you say, lang files are on the saves
01:25:43 <_dp_> not like I read your lang files for long enough)
01:25:53 <_dp_> anyway, time to sleep, bb))
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01:27:55 <ST2> _dp_: you have the lang file directly - you didn't read it from saves - I know it
01:28:37 <ST2> aka: time to cut the crap :D
01:28:51 <ST2> but ok, it's not a national secret ^^
01:48:25 <Quinch> Hello, got a few questions if someone feels like answering.
01:48:42 <Quinch> First, how do multihead trains affect reliability? Do more engines decay faster or no?
01:49:04 <ST2> Quinch, it's on channel topic: Don't ask to ask, just ask
01:50:40 <ST2> about that, and as far as I know: multiheaded trains sum power, but only the 1st loco handle reliability
01:53:26 <Quinch> Cool, so I can lead with a 95% engine and the rest can be trash?
01:54:48 <ST2> well, are you playing with breakdowns ON or OFF?
01:55:13 <Quinch> Otherwise reliability wouldn't be an issue.
01:55:19 <ST2> so, take care of the lead loco
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02:06:38 <Quinch> Second question, for cargo, how is travel time/distance calculated? As a straight line from the originating and destination points, or total distance traveled?
02:07:17 <Quinch> Also, is cargo decay calculated while the train is loading/waiting in station, or just while it's moving?
02:07:42 <Quinch> So, smaller trains are actually more efficient?
02:08:02 <ST2> as FLHerne said: The former
02:08:12 <FLHerne> On that specidic measure, yes
02:08:23 <glx> that's why it's better to always have a vehicle loading in station, but not wait too long
02:08:26 <Quinch> What's the pros of long, multihead trains then?
02:08:43 <FLHerne> You need more short trains
02:09:01 <glx> long coal trains are nice
02:09:21 <FLHerne> Higher infrastructure costs (can be a major factor on large networks), also running and purchase costs in many sets favour long trains
02:10:02 <ST2> I'll never use a 14 tile train for deliver 20 tiles distance
02:10:02 <FLHerne> Infra maintenance doesn't scale linearly with network size
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02:10:40 <glx> of course small distance is better with short train
02:11:29 <ST2> and btw, vanilla Infra maintenance is a bugged thing
02:11:36 <glx> and that also depends on industry output
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02:12:15 <Quinch_> I think I got disconnected.
02:12:31 <Quinch_> But yeah, I use trains for medium/long range hauling.
02:12:47 <ST2> glx: if producing industry has a high output... deliver close is not an option ^^
02:12:48 <Quinch_> Short shuttling, go for boats or trucks, depending on how much I need to carry.
02:13:07 <ST2> at least if want to make profit
02:13:32 <Quinch_> And planes if I need to provide secondary goods to industries.
02:13:59 <Quinch_> Which also brings me to the question, other than production tiers, do any of FIRS2 industries vary their output?
02:14:00 <glx> even for offshore oil I prefer to raise land near the platform and use train
02:14:57 <ST2> glx: some online servers dnt allow it - becaise blocks other players from using the resource
02:15:40 <Islacrusez> glx, I love doing that with massively stacked oil rigs; tasty tasty 12-block long oil trains
02:16:00 <Islacrusez> preferably to a refinery at least 500 tiles away
02:16:36 <glx> just to have them closed just before the first train arrives ;)
02:16:43 <ST2> distance only matters accounting vehicles speeds (and the paying rates too ^^)
02:17:20 <FLHerne> ST2: I disagree, the non-linear infra maintenance is a very good incentive against ugly networks
02:17:47 <Islacrusez> I think it takes about half that distance for that juggernaut to get to speed, and the other half to slow down in time :P
02:18:07 *** Quinch_ is now known as Quinch
02:18:34 <Quinch> Islacrusez, use multiheads then?
02:18:50 <ST2> FLHerne: I could disagree too, until I set a server where ~500 electric track gave 40million expenses
02:19:14 <Islacrusez> I think I had three locos in there
02:19:16 <ST2> and yes, was without grf's
02:19:47 <Islacrusez> let's just say that after it pulled out of the station there wasn't a single turn or elevation change
02:20:24 <ST2> FLHerne: 40million expenses, was talking on Euros
02:21:02 <Islacrusez> the bigger problem turned out to be reliability
02:21:47 <FLHerne> ST2: That's where you go back and look for old track that you don't need
02:22:21 <Quinch> Anyway, anyone know much about FIRS?
02:22:56 <ST2> FLHerne: it's not expected players to remove tracks not needed - aka tracks that train made to deliver cargo
02:23:32 <FLHerne> That's why having a game mechanic that pushes people to do it is a good thing :-)
02:24:09 <FLHerne> I'm tired of servers where people have just randomly sprawled tracks across the map with about two trains per million tiles
02:24:21 <ST2> FLHerne: I'll get some free time next weekend
02:24:34 <ST2> and I'll setup a server with it
02:25:19 <FLHerne> Sounds fun, I don't think I'm doing anything
02:27:04 <ST2> ok, for now you can see BTPro server #XX, Infra maintenance is now set to 1/31 via basecosts newgrf
02:27:33 <FLHerne> Well, for right now it's 1:20am and I'm going to sleep ;-)
02:28:38 <ST2> and yes, I work at 8:30 am ^^
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02:30:50 <ST2> note: our server srv13A (that you joined) is an easy one ^^
02:31:50 <Quinch_> Oh, another question, does crossing a square diagonally count as a full traverse?
02:32:16 <Quinch_> No, wait, that's been answered by the distance question.
02:33:13 <ST2> manhattan distance is the key :)
02:36:58 <Quinch_> Anyway, no FIRS experts around?
02:38:29 <ST2> because FIRS 1.4.* and FIRS 2+ are a bit different
02:39:54 <ST2> all what you need to know ^^
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02:48:12 <Quinch_> More along the lines of strategies.
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02:59:51 <Quinch_> Oh, one more thing. What exactly "refit to any cargo" does?
03:47:51 <Sylf> with firs, I first focus on engineering supplies.
03:48:34 <Sylf> creating engineering supplies, then transport them back to the primary industries that you used to create them
03:48:59 <Sylf> oh nevermind. OP isn't listening
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09:25:52 <Flygon> It's a shame the way the engine is designed as it is doesn't allow for rising sea levels
09:25:59 <Flygon> Global Warming as a feature'd be cool
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09:42:32 <Alkel_U3> Alpha Centauri had such feature, you could actively raise or lower the sea level and flood your oponents' unprepared cities. Fun :-)
09:44:23 <Alkel_U3> I don't see much use for it in TT, though. It making sense to the game would IMO require so many changes, you might as well call it a new game :D
09:53:14 <Flygon> Alkel_U3: SMACX's implementation was very VERY hacky
10:00:26 <Alkel_U3> perhaps... but the important thing is, now that I'v been reminded I need to play it for nostalgia reasons. As if I had the time for that.
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11:18:13 <monsted> Flygon: the drones look down on me :(
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14:11:47 <Samu> I'm trying to use 1.6.1-RC1 again on an Athlon XP 2700+, but with different blitter modes
14:12:14 <Samu> there is a major boost in performance going brom 32bpp to 8bpp
14:13:32 <Samu> then there's another major boost in performance turning full animation off
14:13:46 <greeter> well i'm only speaking from my own personal experience, but i haven't seen it
14:14:13 <greeter> i run openttd on an ancient machine, and it runs just as smoothly in 32bpp as it does in 8bpp. but machines vary. only real way to see is to try it yourself
14:15:13 <Samu> there is a dwm.exe taxing about 32% CPU, then 68% for openttd when in 32bpp
14:16:36 <Samu> turning off full animation drops dwm.exe usage to almost 0%
14:17:02 <jonty-comp> dwm is the windows aero manager
14:18:44 <Samu> in 8bpp mode, dwm is about 32-35% use with full animation, but openttd becomes lighter and has yet room to breathe
14:19:18 <Samu> still, the sum of both is taxing about 80-90% cpu
14:20:08 <Samu> then full animation turned off help much more, it goes down to about 3-10% cpu usage
14:22:13 <Samu> ATI Radeon X1950 Pro 512 MB VRAM
14:22:59 <Samu> Athlon XP 2700+ as I said
14:38:48 <Flygon> I was gonna ask how you have enough RAM to run OpenTTD
14:38:59 <Flygon> Then I realized not everyone uses 4096*4096 maps
14:39:20 <greeter> well i find 1024 x 1024 the most fun
14:39:39 <greeter> say, this reminds me, i'm thinking of starting an openttd server. is there somewhere i can go to see the minimum recommended/required system specs for that?
14:45:47 <greeter> actually, i think i got it, and the server meets the minimum requirements. thanks :-D
15:11:27 <jaenster> it also depends what OS you put on your ancient machine
15:13:55 <Alkel_U3> I got it running with ~5 people on a Cubieboard2 - dualcore cortex-a7 (the stable before cargodist, 512^2). I'd say the requirements for a basic server aren't really a concern
15:14:07 <Alkel_U3> other than stable conectivity, ofc
15:21:28 <jaenster> y but server or the game itself is something else
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15:40:31 <Alkel_U3> sure, I was just replying on the topic of the (presumably dedicated) server
15:49:26 <greeter> vps, and yeah, after seeing the system requirements page, it looks like i'm good to go. i just need to tidy up some stuff and get ready to compile the source
15:54:57 <greeter> though i'm starting to wonder how silly my game is going to look using american english and american dollars with metric measurements
15:56:23 <Islacrusez> well the americans aren't completely opposed to the metric system, if the popularity of the 9mm is anything to go by...
15:57:41 <greeter> well i didn't grow up in the united states but i'm very pro american. since i didn't grow up there i'm also pro metric :-P
16:03:37 <greeter> or i guess i can just install a binary :-S lol
16:09:35 <Islacrusez> that coding stuff is beyond me
16:09:41 * Islacrusez says as he learns java
16:10:36 <greeter> rofl, good luck, java was one language i never could wrap my head around
16:10:51 <greeter> course i never fully learned any language. c is probably the one i'm best in, but my skills there are mediocre at best
16:11:45 <Islacrusez> codecademy's intro to java is really good... it's just not nearly long enough for what I'm doing
16:12:02 <Islacrusez> there's a gap between the end of that and the start of the minecraft modding tutorial I'm following
16:12:09 <Islacrusez> I'm really hoping to be able to blag it
16:12:30 <greeter> wow, i'm actually running a dedicated openttd server :-D there's still work to do, but this is really neat
16:19:45 <greeter> hmm, the client isn't letting me add the server this time for some reason. i click the add button in the dialog and the window just disappears. the server registers a udp request though
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16:22:07 *** charon.oftc.net sets mode: +v michi_cc
16:23:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Rubidium
16:23:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Belugas
16:25:21 <greeter> never mind, i was a moron, found out what i was doing wrong :-)
16:31:41 <greeter> so one last newbie question. once i fire up the server, will anybody be able to see it in the openttd server list or do i need to do other things to add it?
16:39:57 <greeter> never mind, found that too.... feel free to lecture me about the virtues of patience at this point :-P
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16:47:48 <_johannes> Hey, I just reached 500 trains on a single player map... I know how to increase the max number of trains... do I have to expect lag with a modern CPU with more than 500 trains?
16:48:04 <_johannes> what's the highest number of trains anyone had?
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17:00:22 <greeter> guess i do have another question. i've seen that most servers have some sort of welcome message for connecting players. where would i go to set one up on my own server?
17:02:17 <Alkel_U3> I'm guessing that's a gamescript's work?
17:05:05 <Sacro> Does nobody use autopilot anymore?
17:05:17 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 34 weeks, 6 days, 14 hours, 46 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
17:06:18 <greeter> so it's been a while :-S
17:07:06 <Sacro> I can probably name people who have been away longer
17:07:07 <greeter> Alkel_U3: i think this will get me pointed in the right direction :-D thanks
17:07:10 <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen KUDr.
17:08:32 <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen DarkVator.
17:08:37 <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen Dark|SSH.
17:08:56 <Sacro> I wonder if he forgets people from over 5 years ago
17:08:56 <Alkel_U3> aww, there was a patch for server list filtering brewing. Too bad it didn't make it into the trunk :/
17:09:15 <DorpsGek> peter1138: darkvater was last seen in #openttd 6 years, 7 weeks, 5 days, 3 hours, 31 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
17:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the bot was replaced somewhere half way through
17:09:58 <Sacro> I remember SpComb had a logs bot
17:10:16 <Sacro> paivola.fi/~terom/logs/
17:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, _42_ [or so] was the bot before DorspGek
17:10:25 <DorpsGek> peter1138: I have not seen bornacorn.
17:10:30 <DorpsGek> peter1138: I have not seen born_acorn.
17:10:37 <DorpsGek> peter1138: belugas was last seen in #openttd 20 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 25 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <Belugas> I'm fine, thanks! Enjoying what i can, of course. And you?
17:10:45 <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen corn_baron.
17:10:46 <Alkel_U3> I'd really like to hide all of the password protected, version missmatched and language not-compatible-with-me servers
17:11:03 <Sacro> What happened to Belugas? :(
17:11:15 <Alkel_U3> possibly also the ones with goal or citibuilder in the name occasionaly
17:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> probably snow...
17:15:42 <greeter> hmm took me a while to realize the autopilot comment from earlier is applicable to me lol
17:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> why would you use autopilot if we have admin port now?
17:17:14 <greeter> it sounds like there's a lot i'm either not finding in the wiki or hasn't been added to it yet. maybe that should be my next project :-)
17:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> autopilot was a tool to interact with a server through the command line
17:17:44 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: I miss old school openttd
17:17:59 <Sacro> I remember the 0.4.0 release
17:18:04 <greeter> never played old school openttd to be honest, never played ttd either
17:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> admin port is a proper server interaction protocol, designed to replace all the hacks that autopilot had to do
17:19:13 <Alkel_U3> I've been playing since 5, roughly when TT came out. That addiction scarred me for life :D
17:19:22 <greeter> can i get an motd with it? that's really the only thing i'm after now :-)
17:19:32 <Sacro> Alberth: somewhere I have a copy of the repo from back then
17:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need admin port for a MOTD, there are on-join-scripts available
17:20:19 <Sacro> I'm going to play some MiniIN
17:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i used to have a bridges-over-everything patch for miniin
17:20:58 <greeter> hmm i saw a thread on that, but the thread indicated that the scripts will show to everybody when a client connects
17:21:02 <Sacro> I need to enable NPF to have PBS
17:21:46 <Alkel_U3> that old PBS implemetation? Didn't that crash trins from time to time?
17:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: you better keep a separate .cfg file for miniin
17:22:04 <Alberth> a disaster feature for free!
17:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: yeah. if two trains faced each other, they both just started up
17:22:45 <Alkel_U3> I don't know myself, I only saw a friend playing it. I was still on TTDPatch back then
17:23:02 <Alkel_U3> well, that's inconvenient :-)
17:24:04 <Sacro> Alkel_U3: yes, I was a master at that
17:24:12 <Sacro> there's a forum post somewhere about me
17:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you had train>signal--track--signal<train they would be stuck, neither getting into the station. and you then forced one through the signal, as soon as you had train>signal<train the other one also started up and crashed into the first one
17:25:16 <Alkel_U3> I think I hopped over to OpenTTD with one of the last ChrisIN packs
17:27:06 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: I just had a habit of working on live junctions
17:27:26 <Alkel_U3> hm, can't find that post :-)
17:27:28 <greeter> awesome :-D got an motd, thanks for your help everyone
17:28:47 <Alkel_U3> greeter: for the greater good of me, how did you solve it in the end? I'm about to get a server up and running as well, so it'd save me some hassle :-)
17:29:20 <Alkel_U3> that's one of the reasons I got that VPS a few months ago after all
17:29:36 <Alkel_U3> the main one it being absolutely dirt cheap
17:29:50 <greeter> i created a directory in ~/.openttd/scripts (change for other operating systems as needed, this was for linux) and create a file named on_server_connect.scr
17:30:09 <Sacro> Alkel_U3: me neither right now
17:30:20 <Sacro> I recall it being after a run of about 18 hours playing
17:30:36 <Sacro> And then Akalamanaia took my company over in the morning
17:31:00 <greeter> my server is just about ready to go live, so if you need any help, feel free to ask. if i'm around i'll help out if i can
17:31:43 <Sacro> I miss Brianetta's Standard
17:33:53 <greeter> Brainetta's standard?
17:35:06 <Sacro> Very popular back in the day
17:37:02 <greeter> i actually haven't played on any servers before, except for one a friend of mine started. i've spectated a few, just skimming for gameplay tips/tricks/tactics
17:38:17 <Alkel_U3> greeter: so, where's the server? Is it live yet? I'm in the mood to build something right now :D
17:38:41 <greeter> not yet, i wanted to write a rules page, but i'll make it live if you want to try it out
17:39:07 <Alkel_U3> well I'm good, I'll wait for the rules :P
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17:40:20 <greeter> alrighty then. i want to write them because i was playing against an ai the other day that cut off the building of one of my train tracks, rather maliciously at that
17:42:41 <Alkel_U3> on my last server I think I restricted max speed of trains on level crossing and specified min. PBS headroom in front of a crossing for different speeds - can't remember how actively that was used
17:43:26 <greeter> ok, firing up the server
17:43:45 <Sacro> Need to try a mod pack again
17:43:52 <greeter> hmm, and it quit i think
17:44:26 <Alkel_U3> JGR's pack is the current top, I'd say
17:45:21 <greeter> hmm, something got borked in my config file
17:45:31 <supermop_> does it have departure boards?
17:46:29 <Alkel_U3> it even has close-adjacent-crossings patch!
17:47:15 <Alkel_U3> not that I build those often, but with forced speed reduction via timetables they actualy make sense to build sometimes
17:47:42 <greeter> for some reason, the game is trying to resolve the domain name "f" :-S and it isn't starting for that reason
17:47:52 <supermop_> seems like spring 2013 patch patch wshould update it's name
17:48:25 <Sacro> I was looking at the other one,
17:48:31 <Sacro> Might hav e the deceleration patch
17:48:44 <Sacro> red/yellow/doubelyellow/green
17:48:52 <supermop_> i drew those sprites!
17:49:25 <Alkel_U3> whoo, looks like I'll be shopping around for another patchpack, then :-)
17:49:43 <supermop_> there are some unexpected, but maybe intentional drawback where you have single branchlines joining
17:49:59 <Sacro> can you not use a PBS signal there?
17:50:07 <Sacro> Or does it reserve in front of the mainline?
17:50:21 <Sacro> Maybe you need to use non-PBS
17:50:35 <Sacro> I might get back into ttd patching
17:50:43 <supermop_> it will always try to get 3 blocks
17:51:16 <greeter> ok Alkel_U3 i have the server running now. want me to notice the address?
17:51:33 <supermop_> so if its a long single line without signals on its length it will reserve onto the mainline as soon as it leaves its terminus
17:51:47 <Sacro> Can you not use a distant/home setup?
17:52:06 <Alkel_U3> greeter: I thought you'd be advertised :-)
17:52:08 <Sacro> Put a signal braking distance before the junction protecting signal?
17:52:24 <greeter> i am, but it's a big list and i don't know how well that works and what not
17:52:28 <Sacro> So it reserves upon passing it?
17:52:30 <supermop_> its not that advanced, but i got around it by placing 3 signals leading up to junction
17:52:38 <Sacro> *nod* that's what I meant
17:52:57 <Sacro> Are you forced into 4 aspect signalling?
17:52:58 <supermop_> to 'soak up' the 3 blocks worth or reservation
17:53:13 <Sacro> Darn, does the 'implicit' station signal not count as 1?
17:53:27 <supermop_> it just replaces 2 aspect pbs with 4 aspect
17:53:28 <Alkel_U3> greeter: well, since I don't see anything that would hint your server, yes, please
17:53:36 <Sacro> Be nice to have 2/3/4 selectable
17:53:42 <Sacro> Or even go for the full on 5 aspect!
17:53:50 <supermop_> including anywhere train tries to make reservations, like termini and depots
17:54:08 <supermop_> no pallet animation for blinking green
17:54:50 <supermop_> also no room on semaphore sprite for both arms to be vertical without signal getting insanely tall
17:55:27 <Sacro> Semaphores are insanely tall!
17:55:47 <supermop_> i never tried that guys 'evil' braking mode to go with it
17:56:30 <Sacro> I don't want insta'braking
17:56:45 <supermop_> which would defeat my cheat that had 3 signals in a row at the junction by having my trains fly through the 2nd and 3rd because they couldn't brake
17:56:57 <Sacro> Hence my 'distant signal at braking distance'
17:57:20 <supermop_> man been getting a ton of instagram spam followers lately
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17:59:00 <supermop_> sacro, you also had issues where long runs from a signal to a stopping point, such as branching onto a branch line, would be run at the 'caution' speed for approaching a red signal
17:59:17 <Sacro> You need to put the caution the right distance away
17:59:47 <supermop_> you can configure that speed to whatever you want, but you will have trains running the whole branch at 40kmh or so
18:00:39 <supermop_> i think i set my speeds to 100/80 up from 80/40
18:00:55 <supermop_> because i mostly wanted the line spacing effects
18:02:58 <supermop_> but yeah, once train leaves mainline to head down a single track, it will drive as if approaching a red even if end of line is 100 tiles away
18:08:06 <Sacro> That's possibly a pain, possibly not
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19:06:42 <supermop_> Sacro: again you can put some signals leading up to EOL but you need to be careful that you do not end up trapping trains at the terminus then
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19:19:11 <supermop_> did you end up picking a patch pack to go with?
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19:42:32 <Quinch> Heyo. More silly questions!
19:44:35 <greeter> ask away Quinch, we may have silly answers :-P
19:44:42 <Quinch> With NewGRFs, is there a way to tell how fast a train will unload for specific carriage?
19:45:14 <V453000> supermop_: some proper sets also mention it in the purchase menu :P
19:45:23 <supermop_> some new grfs will add a helpful description, but not all
19:46:02 <supermop_> sometimes they will say "fast, slow," etc for loading speed
19:46:12 <V453000> Quinch: which set are you using?
19:46:28 <supermop_> sometimes they will say a number of days for full load/unload
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19:46:57 <supermop_> sometimes they just say "commuter" or "intercity" and you have to guess what that means,
19:47:13 <supermop_> but most of the time the author will provide no information
19:47:19 <Quinch> Probably not, what's it do?
19:48:13 <V453000> add trains in a proper fashion :)
19:48:38 <V453000> if you like to build big networks, it is just for you
19:50:33 <Quinch> Huh, looks cool. Is it compatible with FIRS2?
19:51:00 <Islacrusez> does everything need a self-referencing name by law now?
19:51:19 <V453000> NUTS is compatible with everything Quinch
19:51:35 <V453000> more than that, it is the only train set which actually at least tries to have graphics for all cargoes individually
19:53:05 <Islacrusez> tries to have graphics for all cargoes individually ? what's this mean? and as opposed to?
19:53:41 <Quinch> I'm guessing that each cargo type looks different when loaded into the carriage?
19:53:49 <V453000> all other train sets have for example 1 sprite of a wagon with containers, and it uses that sprite for engineering supplies, goods, manufacturing supplies, paper, rubber and fruit, ...
19:54:00 <V453000> NUTS will have unique sprites for each of those cargoes so you can recognize them visuall
19:54:25 <V453000> it is a lot of work but I believe it is important to make a nice set
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19:56:40 <V453000> nobody does it though
19:57:12 <Quinch> Are there any NUTS-type balance-focused sets for other vehicle types too?
19:57:26 <V453000> roadhog is pretty good, eGRVTS is nice
19:57:27 <Islacrusez> eh, when there's an unspecified number of cargoes out there, it's impossible to catch them all
19:57:39 <V453000> I caught them all Islacrusez
19:57:55 <V453000> with FIRS2 new cargoes this needs updating, but for years that has been the case
19:58:03 <V453000> basically it works until someone makes a new unique cargo
19:58:26 <Islacrusez> so you don't know if you caught them all; you just haven't heard of one you missed
19:58:52 <V453000> considering only industry sets released on bananas, and thus multiplayer viable, I do know
19:59:16 <Islacrusez> so not all of them, just a specific subset :P
19:59:37 <V453000> you would consider non-bananas industries?
20:00:04 <Quinch> I'm guessing you made NUTS?
20:00:13 * Islacrusez doesn't even know what bananas is
20:00:58 <V453000> ever clicked the Check online content button in openttd?
20:01:11 <V453000> bananas is what we call the server where all of the newgrfs and things are
20:01:24 <V453000> have you even played with newgrfs on?
20:01:59 <Islacrusez> I've been using newgrfs since before there was an OTTD
20:02:05 <greeter> as i just found out, they let anybody upload if they agree to the terms and conditions :-D
20:02:14 <V453000> then how don't you know about bananas :d
20:02:43 <V453000> well, rule breaking content is removed greeter
20:04:00 <greeter> makes sense. i only found out because i decided to try uploading a newgrf i made for local use, and it worked
20:04:08 <Islacrusez> because bananas was after my time?
20:05:34 <V453000> bananas is there for 11 years now, but XD
20:07:10 <Islacrusez> so it predates me by a grand total of a year, but it sure as hell wasn't that well known among TTDP players
20:07:15 <Quinch> At first glance, NUTS seems a bit... confusing.
20:07:31 <Islacrusez> join date: m4rek Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:06 am
20:08:15 <V453000> there is just a lot of engines Quinch, that is why there is the page I sent you with an eventual wiki ... but either of them works, just pick one you like and over time you can focus on using them efficiently
20:11:06 <Quinch> I seem to be having trouble finding one that works with carriages.
20:11:29 <V453000> all of them, you just need correct wagons
20:11:32 <V453000> rail trains use rail wagons
20:11:36 <V453000> monorail trains use monorail wagons
20:11:58 <V453000> but yeah that is one of the bigger reasons why I started designing a new train set
20:12:05 <V453000> when I get some time, I will make them graphics
20:12:26 <V453000> NUTS is fixable but through insane amount of effort
20:19:31 <frosch123> V453000: bananas was added in 2008 or 2009
20:20:02 <V453000> still kind of a long time :P
20:20:24 <frosch123> 2005 may be the first time there was multiplayer
20:21:19 <Islacrusez> how old is OTTD anyway? don't think us TTDP guys really mingled with you lot too much
20:21:34 <V453000> TTDP community tried to separate itself for some unknown reasons
20:21:54 <V453000> the remaining newgrf authors seem to do that up to this date
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20:48:45 <greeter> not sure how that 12 got in there
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20:49:28 <frosch123> maybe you meant h12m
20:51:58 <andythenorth> anyone played megapolis?
20:52:02 <andythenorth> sprites look nice
20:53:00 <andythenorth> pay-to-play probably
20:53:51 <frosch123> watch a movie instead
20:54:00 <Taede> 'get 30 megabucks for free' sais it all really
20:54:09 <frosch123> something like a miniing documentation or so
20:57:09 * andythenorth considers industries that can be clicked on for openttd
20:57:15 <andythenorth> and they’d do arbitrary stuff
20:57:42 <Alkel_U3> like... a Cookie Factory?
20:57:58 <Alkel_U3> Cookie Clicker insede OpenTTD! \o/
20:59:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: there was a suggestion that the bubbles from the bubblegenerator should be pop-able
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21:00:11 <andythenorth> I would use this fine new feature for important gameplay benefits
21:00:18 <andythenorth> like sheep that go ‘baa’ when you click them
21:01:48 <frosch123> should we add a "horn" button to the vehicle gui?
21:02:47 <andythenorth> Mario kart 8 has that
21:02:59 <andythenorth> but only for the player with the fancy handset thing
21:03:29 <andythenorth> I think ‘horn’ might be a great v2 feature
21:03:34 <andythenorth> serious innovation
21:04:02 <V453000> frosch123: any chance for vehicle layers? :)
21:05:56 <supermop_> andythenorth: shoot down helicopter by clicking repeatedly with centering tool?
21:09:47 <andythenorth> couldn’t we composite them in-game to a single sprite?
21:09:59 <andythenorth> and change them if a cb runs?
21:10:28 <frosch123> the tricky thing is always the spec
21:10:33 <frosch123> who cares about the implementation?
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21:10:44 <frosch123> it can be changed whenever there is a better idea
21:15:43 <supermop_> move fast and break things?
21:30:57 <andythenorth> shunting, again?
21:31:05 <andythenorth> oh, I was in suggestions forum by mistake
21:31:28 <supermop_> shunt fast and crash trains
21:31:35 <glx> fatal error andythenorth ;)
21:53:07 * Belugas resets counter of "last seen"
21:53:24 <greeter> nothing wrong with that
21:53:30 * Belugas greets greeter and his greetings!
21:54:18 <Belugas> the sun, it is still high in the sky, even behind clouds :S
21:54:42 <Belugas> other than that... not much ;)
21:54:44 <greeter> hmm it's behind the clouds here too
21:55:02 <greeter> started my own server for the first time :-D so pretty thrilled about that
21:55:05 <Belugas> Rubidium! hello you :D
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21:55:45 <greeter> it's a regular party now :-)
21:55:46 <Belugas> greeter, honest, i've not touched the system for like... a long time
21:56:25 <Belugas> too much distractions in this world ^^
21:56:45 <greeter> ah, that can be tough to combat for sure
21:57:21 <Belugas> Remko, i tought about you lately, i was looking over the picts when we roamed a bit Quebecs' roads. was nice..
21:58:33 <Rubidium> Belugas: yeah, that was fun
21:59:24 <Belugas> note that 25k party was noce too! greeter, in Montreal to be precise
22:00:13 <greeter> ah, not too far from here in new brunswick
22:00:57 <Belugas> relatively speaking, yes :)
22:01:21 <Belugas> never been there, my foather told me a lot of good thinks of your province :)
22:01:37 <greeter> he and i must have been to different parts of the province :-P
22:01:51 <greeter> never been to montreal myelf, but i've been to quebec once before. spent a week touring the gaspe peninsula
22:01:57 <Rubidium> interestingly the 25k party was in Brunswick (or rather the German equivalent name of it)
22:02:24 <V453000> I actually had no clue I am going to Brunswick for a good while XD
22:03:55 <Belugas> beer was good in Braunschweig. too bad they don't kow about credit cards lol!
22:04:08 <Belugas> ho.. no... that was the other country...
22:05:53 <Rubidium> Belugas: you just need maestro, not that useless visa stuff
22:05:58 <Belugas> greeter, you know, when you stay for long at the same place, you tend to not see the beauty of it. when you travel, you discover the place with new eyes
22:06:33 <Belugas> bt my wife and i never had any debit card, just credit. even now.
22:06:45 <greeter> that is true. other places in new brunswick look better to me than places near my home, since i don't leave the forest much. but then people comment out here about natural beauty, especially at night if they can see the stars
22:06:54 <Belugas> she lokes to play in the invoicing dates, to get more time to pay..
22:07:31 * Belugas shakes up the dirt off keyboard
22:07:41 <Rubidium> you don't need a creditcard to play with that
22:10:02 * Rubidium prefers debit as well
22:11:18 <Belugas> yeah well.. she has her habits, i cannot change the way she does things. Me and money, anyway, are not to be mixed
22:11:19 <Rubidium> no need to account for: how much money do I owe on the credit card, so how much more can I spend. Just happens on one account. Also, since money is "gone" immediately, you are less likely to overspend
22:13:34 <Rubidium> also, in most cases credit cards are more expensive over here than debit cards
22:14:31 <Rubidium> I seem to remember having to pay about EUR 2.5 per ATM transaction, whereas that's free for my debit card
22:15:18 * andythenorth just uses the card with the nicest colours
22:15:28 <andythenorth> whatever that happens to be that day
22:16:32 <Belugas> you need to spend a lot to reach your limit ;) At least for me. Plus, if you pay invoice before deadline, you don't pay a cent
22:17:01 <V453000> my invoice even pays itself for 1 euro per month
22:17:02 <Belugas> AND i only use CC that do not ask to pay a yearly fee for the "benefits" of that card
22:17:37 * Belugas likes andythenorth's approach ^^
22:18:20 <Belugas> but hey, i guess all habits are relevant to one's culture and/or experience ;)
22:18:58 <Belugas> break's over. love you guys. see you in sometimes ^^
22:22:00 <Rubidium> fees for CC are about 1.5-2% of transaction + 0.15 setup fee, fees for the more-or-less standard Dutch thing to pay over the internet are about EUR 0.15 per transaction, effectively if you pay EUR 100 over the internet, a CC costs about EUR 1.5 and the standard Dutch way EUR 0.15
22:22:47 <Rubidium> paypal is slightly cheaper than both though, but harder to setup/maintain
22:23:08 <andythenorth> also I use the one I can remember the PIN for :P
22:23:25 <glx> I have only one so that's easy
22:23:38 <Rubidium> one PIN, or one card?
22:26:47 <Wolf01> I don't have transaction fees for my cc, but if I spend over 2000€ I have to pay a fixed fee of 40€/yr
22:27:34 <andythenorth> Wolf01: Arocs arrived today, £130
22:27:38 <Rubidium> Wolf01: the transaction fees are for the person selling stuff to you
22:28:18 <Rubidium> in the Netherlands it's almost normal to ask for a 2% surcharge for paying with credit card over the cheapest option
22:29:58 <Wolf01> not always, you have to pay for a cc here, and different banks have different ways, in my case it's the fee for over 2000€/yr, the previous one was 5€/month, another one I was looking at had something like 0.025€/transaction
22:30:42 <Rubidium> here you pay for the creditcard *and* the person selling you stuff pays as well
22:31:20 <Wolf01> yes, that is the same here too
22:32:14 <Wolf01> this one was really good because of that "high" limit... but last year I purchased the trip to Japan :P
22:32:56 <Wolf01> I usually spend 800-1400€/yr on internet
22:33:52 <Wolf01> andythenorth: discounted or full price?
22:35:03 <Wolf01> I have a fixed 20% discount on all sets except the featured ones
22:35:29 <Wolf01> so last time I purchased another arocs too :P
22:36:37 <andythenorth> discounted, usually £170
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23:53:53 <supermop_> get to ride a new (to me) train line tomorrow
continue to next day ⏵
